I Attempt A Swift Ad

If the Swiftee's new ad can excerpt Kerry's 1971 testimony, mine can too. And we will juxtapose Kerry's 2004 acceptance speech:

2004: I'm John Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty.

1971: I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

2004: I am accompanied by an extraordinary band of brothers led by that American hero, a patriot called Max Cleland.

Our band of brothers doesn't march together because of who we are as veterans, but because of what we learned as soldiers.

We fought for this nation because we loved it, and we came back with the deep belief that every day is extra. We may be a little older, we may be a little grayer, but we still know how to fight for our country.

1971: …they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam…

2004: I know what kids go through when they're carrying an M-16 in a dangerous place, and they can't tell friend from foe. I know what they go through when they're out on patrol at night and they don't know what's coming around the next bend. I know what it's like to write letters home telling your family that everything's all right, when you're not sure that that's true.

1971: I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

2004: I learned a lot about these values on that gunboat patrolling the Mekong Delta with Americans -- you saw them -- who come from places as different as Iowa and Oregon, Arkansas, Florida, California.

No one cared where we went to school. No one cared about our race or our backgrounds. We were literally all in the same boat. We looked out, one for the other, and we still do.

1971: …we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

2004: I defended this country as a young man…

1971: In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America.

Comments

[Kamakazi]

Devestatingly simple. Ouch.

[gagarin]

excellent

[MarkRock]

The Democrats would have been better off if they had nominated Howard Dean or anyone else who doesn't have a record of accusing American soldiers of war atrocities without substantiating evidence.

[FrankNH]

Are you in contact with John O'Neill?
Have you e-mailed this to the SwiftVets?
If not, may I respectfully suggest that you do ASAP.
From recent reports their war chest is growing rapidly and they should be able to produce another ad before the drop dead date for airing them on Sept. 3rd.
Nothing I've seen would preclude them for making it and putting it out as a video on the net, even after that date.
That comparison type of ad would have a tremedous impact.

[Jay]

I am not Kerry fan, but on reading the 1971 transcript I came out with alot more respect for the man. He back then managed to present a complete and formed world-view with passion and conviction.

If only he could muster that today.

[Russ]

Questions for Senator Kerry:

Senator Kerry, given that you have previously testified that war crimes perpetrated by U.S. soldiers were commonplace in Vietnam, did your personally witness such acts; and, if so, where can we find the reports that you would have submitted contemporaneously to document these activities to people in your chain of command or other U.S. authorities?

When will you be releasing all of your military records and personal journals from this era so that the American electorate can better judge for themselves the veracity of your claims?

[Dan]

Given that Kerry was an officer in the Naval Reserve at the time (1971), did he not have a duty to report the crimes he describes to the proper millitary authorities? Just wondering...

By the way, Jay is correct in that Kerry, right or wrong, at least had passion in the late 60's and the early 70's. Its as if he became a burnt out old man at 30. He began to play it safe, worry about processes rather than goals, avoid leadership, run from controversy, and was content to lurk in the shadow of the senior senator from MA.

Now he wants to be president? Why?

[Beldar]

Good stuff, but we suffer from an embarrassment of riches in trying to put together this sort of stuff. I suspect this runs way longer than the 27 seconds or so that they have for an ad.

[Jumbo]

Outstanding!

And Beldar, per usual, made a particularly incisive comment: "Good stuff, but we suffer from an embarrassment of riches in trying to put together this sort of stuff."

That's IT! Kerry is such a bag full of contradictions, you hardly know where to start. While I admire the SBVFT and support them, (BTW, right after this I'm sending them $), Kerry's OWN WORDS are enough to impeach him beyond rehabilitation. And even then, just WHICH issue upon which he has establsihed mutually exclusive positions would you pursue?

My God, I see no parallel in our history to this election in terms of a candidate's undeniable self-contradictions on so many points; not just his personal history, but in his poltical career. I can not for the life of me think of a time when a man with this much slip-n-slide would not have been laughed or run off the national stage.

Has America become so cynical, jaded or partisan that it can tolerate such a low man?

[harold]

The other swift boat officer just spoke up for the first time ever. He's a local news editor at the Chicago Tribune.

Here's his story.

[GT]

The Swifties have been pretty debunked by now. You sure you want to associate with them?

[Jumbo]

"The other swift boat officer just spoke up for the first time ever."

I went there: unless I missed something its a limited refutation, if that. The author, William Rood, is an asst. ed at the Chi Trib. The gravamen of his article seems to be that he was the as-yet-unheard-from skipper of the 3rd PCF on Feb 28, PCF-23. He said he has intentionally not engaged in any interviews, etc. since 1969, for the personal reasons of wanting gto leave it behind.

He makes these points. 1) John Kerry spoke with the other 2 SWIFT OICs before the Feb 28 mission, and proposed a new tactic of charging into any ambush (the likelihood of which was all but a foregone conclusion), instead of roaring off downriver. 2) They received "significant fire" from attackers other than the VC Kerry tracked down and killed 3) and that the VC was "a grown man dressed just like their attackers usually were.

He also points with disapproval to Adm Hoffman's change of course from praising Kerry's initiative in suggesting the new tactic of turning into an ambush, to later bailing out on Kerry.

He seems extremely reluctant to say anything 35 years later. He says he ws motivated by his unease that the SBVFT, in an attempt to hurt Kerry, were unintentionally hurting the other men there. He said the Kerry campaign had called him on more than one occasion in the last few days to have him come out, but if he is a Kerry supporter, he does not betray it. He seems most uncomfortable about rehashing old combat, because "no one" is able to remember 35 years later what happened. He seems genuine, troubled that this old stuff is being dug up which might reflect poorly on participants other than the intended targer, Kerry. He is conspicuously silent about Kerry's character, or other events. He seems conflicted.

This will, however, be touted by MSM as a definitive, shattering refutation of SBVFT as to all claims past, present and future, and thus nostoryhere, nothingtosee, movealong. But it's not.

[Jumbo]

Hee hee! GT beat me to the post to put out the party line!

[GT]

It's yet another Swift lie exposed.

Like Thurlow saying he wasn't shot at and then finding not one but two documnets that contradicts him (including HIS OWN BS citation).

[GT]

Rood (and the citations) destroy the SS accusations.

Thurlow's records (and Rassman) destroy the BS accusation.

Runyon and Zeldonis destroy the PH accusations.

[GT]

In fact, even Letson, by admitting he gave medical treatment to Kerry, helps destroy the PH acusations.

[Tim]

GT:

Assuming EVERYTHING you say is correct; what we know is the facts conform this: Kerry lied about being in Cambodia; Kerry accused his "band of brothers" of war crimes; the North Vietnames enemy benefitted tremendously from Kerry's accusations; Kerry was still a uniformed officer of the United States Navy when he, without authorization, met with them in Paris, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

You and other Anyone But Bush voters may be satisfied, but I and MOST Americans will not be.

Kerry loses. Big time. Better luck next time.

[alt hippo]

Alt Hippo here, still healing from a recent cage match with the Belgrave Dispatch.

I agree with Jay, having just read the text of his 1971 testimony, this is a very different John Kerry than the controlled, and patrician Senator we often see.

I'd like to correct one misconception, though. Kerry was not criticizing his fellow veterans (read the full testimony and judge for yourself). If anything, he was critical of the policies of the Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administrations.

Even McNamara has said that going to war over the Domino Theory was a mistake.

I guess I can see criticizing Kerry over his views on the death penalty, outsourcing, or the way he takes 10 minutes to clear his throat before speaking, but he did the right thing by his Viet Nam service. I don't see anything partisan about that.

That being said, I'll be happy to talk to the Johns, and see if we can give Viet Nam a rest. Fair enough?

[Jumbo]

althippo said: "I'd like to correct one misconception, though. Kerry was not criticizing his fellow veterans (read the full testimony and judge for yourself). If anything, he was critical of the policies of the Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administrations."

I agree he was laying the blame at the feet of what he claims is a corrupt leadership of what he claims is a corrupt military of what he claims is a corrupt country.

But it is an inescapable conclusion that in his Senate testimony, 1) he claims personal knowledge of crimes consistent with the atrocities he lists; 2) that atrocities are widespread (NEVER that day or at any time I know of in his activities associated with VVAW did he limit culpability, or say that it "was only a few"; to the contrary, we know he meant to say it was widespread because he claimed....). 3) atrocities were known "AT ALL LEVELS OF COMMAND", directly accusing knowledge, and clearly implying, at a minimum, tolerance, by ALL COMMAND, of atrocities, and thus, ATROCITY WAS U.S. POLCY.

Only after it became politcally advatageous to associate oneself with Vietnam service (just as it was, up unitl at least the mid-80's politically advantageous for a Massachusetts liberal to associate himself with the anti-war movement) did he begin talking about the honorbale service of many Viet vets.

That it the unmistakeable context of his remarks. LAT and NYT and Annenberg have taken up this silly parsing of these un-parseable remarks, but it won't work.

[capt joe]

It's quite funny to read much of the left's indignation over the SBVFT controversy.

After 3 years of attacks on Bush's service through the AWOL pseudo issue and the relentless attacks from allied 527s such as MoveOn (the bush = Hilter ad) et al (how many discredited books, cocaine myths, etc.), including Moore's various prevarications, one little 527 with a measily 150K at it's disposal is suddenly a THREAT to democracy. Call the Marines!!

The closest that the MSM came to addressing Moore's F911 truth issues is to say he was addressing greater truths. Hilarious. And with many members of the DNC attending, applauding his d'oeuvre de merde. Not only that but inviting him as a welcome guest to the DNC convention.

Imagine if Bush welcomed the SBVFT, applauded them and they were a welcome guest at the RNC convention. The media would freak.

So far, there is little response, but the NYT thinks that six degrees of SBVFT is an indicator of a VRWC.

Give it a break. Like it or not, this is McCain Feingold and free speech at work.

Oh, I forgot, for the left, it is "Free speech for me but not for thee".

[Cecil Turner]

And as to giving Vietnam a rest, the first thing I saw following that Eschaton link was continued harping over GWB's honorable (but undistinguished) Guard service. Until McAuliffe and Cleland issue a public apology for the AWOL lie, and JFKerry comes up with a platform other than "band of brothers," it is perfectly appropriate to discuss Kerry's Vietnam performance.

Speaking of which, if you include his borderline treasonous activities with the VVAW, it's fairly obvious he helped the enemy's war effort more than ours. If he actually expects voters to determine his fitness for office based on that record, he is likely to be disappointed.

[NavySEAL Mom]

I will let God grant forgiveness to Kerry. I will never forget or forgive Kerry.

At first, I too, just wanted Vietnam left buried; however, now I want the whole truth to come out. Including just who financed their anti-war, anti-American movement.

And, I want those veterans and families that were lied about and had abuse heaped upon them for their service to this country by these people, are truly vindicated.

And, I want the veteran whose daughter, upon hearing Kerry's testimony, ask her father if "He, too, were a baby killer", receive a personal, televised apology from Kerry.

That man has no moral right to be CINC. He gave that up long ago when he aided and abetted the enemy of his "fellow warriors".

[Jumbo]

Preach on, NavySEAL Mom!

[Jumbo]

Another thing just ocurred to me.

No conservative ever spit on a returning Viet Vet; no Republican ever screamed "Baby Killer!" at a man in uniform. No person who truly honors vets today EVER threw blood on American fighting men. The people who did that were the ideological comrades of John Kerry. Then; and now.

[GT]

OH please spare us the loony talk Mom. Enough with this holier-than-thou crap.

[Jumbo]

C'mon GT tell us: you're really a righty trying to make lefties look bad, right? I mean, no lefty could be so boorish as to mock the way you just did, right?

[GT]

Mock?

Who is mocking?

[capt joe]

yep, so what's loony about NavySeal Mom's post?

It's passionate, I grant you that. Loony!? This is an important topic to her. Important to anyone who felt betrayed by the slurs on their honor. Never forgotten, Never forgiven.

[GT]

Anyone who continues to disseminate this extra-chromosome version of patriotism where if you don't accept 100% what your government tells you is a traitor is loony.

[Greg F]

Add this to the list. list

“Kerry sustained a very minor wound to his arm, probably caused by debris from his own boat's salvoes. The scratch earned him his first Purple Heart, a medal awarded for those wounded in combat. Actually there's no evidence that anyone had fired back, or that Kerry had been in combat, as becomes obvious when we read an entry from his diary about a subsequent excursion, written on December 11, 1968, nine days after the incident that got Kerry his medal. "A cocky air of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel, because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky."

[max]

First "looney" and then "this extra-chromosome version of patriotism"; i.e. Down's Syndrom. But NO discussion on the merits of the points in NavySEALMom's post.

Classic loser conduct. See you in November.

[max]

First "looney" and then "this extra-chromosome version of patriotism"; i.e. Down's Syndrome. But NO discussion on the merits of the points in NavySEALMom's post.

Classic loser conduct. See you in November.

[Monique]

What we now know is that a group of Vietnam veterans have staked their honor on a collection of sworn affidavits with the intention of defaming the character of a fellow veteran. There is now hard evidence that at least some of them have lied. We also know that these men were initially funded and organized by the same group of people, friends and colleagues of Rove/Bush, who defamed John McCain when he had the temerity to oppose the great W.

Now we are to watch another round of ads by these perjurous men, who have shamelessly and clearly lied to defame a man running for President.

The Kerry campaign is releasing an ad of John McCain challenging George Bush to denounce the SAME kind of scurrilous, unpatriotic attacks upon his record. It is a matter of public record, and not trimmed in the same illegitimate, misleading way Kerry's Senate testimony has been trimmed by the Swifties.

You have all been implying Kerry is a fraud. What if you have been wrong, and he is indeed the fighter he portrays himself to be? The public is not completely stupid and immune from judgment. I can only hope we are a nation capable of understanding that a pattern of deliberate slander is not a way to keep any man in power.

It is legitimate to attack a man on his record. But that is not the way Bush has decided to run his campaign, or any campaign he's ever run in. Americans don't particularly like dirty players or bullies. So we'll see what their ultimate judgment is here. At least NOW they're getting a chance to make an informed judgment.

[Monique]

What we now know is that a group of Vietnam veterans have staked their honor on a collection of sworn affidavits with the intention of defaming the character of a fellow veteran. There is now hard evidence that at least some of them have lied. We also know that these men were initially funded and organized by the same group of people, friends and colleagues of Rove/Bush, who defamed John McCain when he had the temerity to oppose the great W.

Now we are to watch another round of ads by these perjurous men, who have shamelessly and clearly lied to defame a man running for President.

The Kerry campaign is releasing an ad of John McCain challenging George Bush to denounce the SAME kind of scurrilous, unpatriotic attacks upon his record. It is a matter of public record, and not trimmed in the same illegitimate, misleading way Kerry's Senate testimony has been trimmed by the Swifties.

You have all been implying Kerry is a fraud. What if you have been wrong, and he is indeed the fighter he portrays himself to be? The public is not completely stupid and immune from judgment. I can only hope we are a nation capable of understanding that a pattern of deliberate slander is not a way to keep any man in power.

It is legitimate to attack a man on his record. But that is not the way Bush has decided to run his campaign, or any campaign he's ever run in. Americans don't particularly like dirty players or bullies. So we'll see what their ultimate judgment is here. At least NOW they're getting a chance to make an informed judgment.

[WillieStyle]

The Jujitsu is strong with this one.

Ouch.
Indeed.

[NavySEAL Mom]

I would have expected nothing less from you, GT.

The likes of you have tried to ridicule me and demean me and my family for well over forty years without success.

You have no honor or facts to back your assertions, and Kerry has no core.

[Joanna]

>By the way, Jay is correct in that Kerry, right or wrong, at least had passion in the late 60's and the early 70's. Its as if he became a burnt out old man at 30. He began to play it safe, worry about processes rather than goals, avoid leadership, run from controversy, and was content to lurk in the shadow of the senior senator from MA

Totally disagree. Kerry's a diehard Marxist boring from within. He has the same worldview how as he ever had, a worldview that history has discredited but he still clings to it like a sinking ship. His 30 years in the Senate were a constant gnawing at republicanism.

Lies are just part and parcel of the Marxist-Leninist bag of tricks. Say AMYTHING to gain power, no moral centre.

Oh, and Michael Moore is in the exact same ideological camp:

Grabbed this off www.moorelies.com

"You can also see [Moore] him in a documentary first released in Canada in 2003, which came out in the U.S. in late June of 2004 -- The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power, based on the book of the same name by Joel Bakan. Throughout much of May, its poster could be seen on the bottom of Moore's home page next to that of Super Size Me...

[T]he single funniest line belongs to Michael Moore. In the closing moments of the film, the man who brought Roger & Me to movie fans muses about the paradoxical decision of large corporations to distribute his anti-corporate films and TV shows. He paraphrases the (possibly apocryphal) saying attributed to V.I. Lenin about how "the capitalists are so hungry for profits that they will sell us the rope to hang them with." The implication is that corporations want to make money off Moore's creations, even if distributing those creations may inspire hostility to capitalism. Moore then looks into the camera and says, "I'm the rope."

[Paul Zrimsek]

You local liberals are letting the side down a bit. Sure, you've insinuated a Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy just like you're supposed to, and you played the "how dare you question my patriotism" card just like you're supposed to-- but don't any of you want to question the timing? Do it for the children!

[GT]

Mom,

I don't really care what you think.

I just find people like you, that can't simply say they disagree with Kerry but have to go beyond that and call him a traitor, truly despicable human beings.

You have no shame. Views like yours are like a cancer in this society.

[Brad]

OUTSTANDING! But as Beldar says, too long for a TV commercial. And I agree with FrankNH that this gem deserves greater distribution, so I will do my part to spread the word far and wide.

[Brad]

"I Attempt A Swift Ad", OUTSTANDING! But as Beldar says, too long for a TV commercial. And I agree with FrankNH that this gem deserves greater distribution, so I will do my part to spread the word far and wide.

[Greg F]

The Washington Post is starting to pay attention.

"An investigation by The Washington Post into what happened that day suggests that both sides have withheld information from the public record and provided an incomplete, and sometimes inaccurate, picture of what took place."

[Greg F]

"There is now hard evidence that at least some of them have lied."

There is hard evidence that Kerry lied.

"Now we are to watch another round of ads by these perjurous men, who have shamelessly and clearly lied to defame a man running for President."

Yes, moveon.org and Michael Moore have done just that with a budget of millions!

"The Kerry campaign is releasing an ad of John McCain..."

To paraphrase the Kerry campaign, 'McCain was not on Kerrys boat'.

"...challenging George Bush to denounce the SAME kind of scurrilous, unpatriotic attacks upon his record."

You mean the way Kerry denounced moveon.org and Michael Moore?

"I can only hope we are a nation capable of understanding that a pattern of deliberate slander is not a way to keep any man in power.

Or keep them out of office as the case may be.

[capt joe]

Wow, GT, by that statement, you have lost any credibility you might have had with everyone (except Monique of course, but jeez, snort..).

So people who disagree with you are "retarded". You are are allowed to say that and worse about our side but we are allowed to say nothing.

Again, Free speech for thee, but not for me. What a living example of animal farm, you are. Sorry that we are not as equal as you are. Thank you napolean, for lifting the blindfold from mine eyes.

If people like us are a cancer on society, I think people, who believe what you have just professed, are the cause of certain extreme population removals. People like you never seem to want any of us around. that is, people who think differently.

[Frank IBC]

Monique

You have all been implying Kerry is a fraud. What if you have been wrong, and he is indeed the fighter he portrays himself to be?

Are you asking Kerry to release his records? If so, good. Form 180...

It is legitimate to attack a man on his record.

And that's precisely what the SwiftVets have done. They've shown that his version of his record is a lie. But apparently, to you, showing that Kerry is a liar is a down and dirty personal attack.

[GT]

No, capt joe. I am not talking about people who disagree with me.

I am talking about people who are unable to limit their opposition to Kerry to sane discourse and go on to accuse him of being a traitor to his country.

Calling anyone a traitor is a huge thing. Calling a decorated war hero a traitor is even worse. People who say those things are like a poison for political debate.

I thought I made that clear. My post was specific as to what I was referring to. Try not to bring up strawmen arguments if you can.

[Jumbo]

Uh-oh. Sorry to interrupt the Kerry inaugural ball. Bad news. Very bad news. Per Beldar, WaPo has for the first time broken ranks with the Kerry camp and given a moderately balanced look at What It's All About: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html
Reporter puts it out there to everybody: release all diaries and records. Heh: SBVFT planned for this day, have rope-a-doped, and are ready to turn over Chenoweth's diaries, which I predict will corroborate what he has said. But Kerry's diaries and military records? A heh. Aheheh. Aheheheheh.

[Cecil Turner]

GT,
NavySeal Mom never said Kerry was a traitor. I'm the one who said his VVAW conduct was "borderline treasonous." And that characterization is based on the belief that the propaganda value of various antiwar groups (including Jane Fonda and Kerry's VVAW) provided "aid and comfort" to the North Vietnamese war effort. Is that "insane"?

As to calling someone a traitor being a huge thing, so is calling them "war criminal." Which is why the second Swiftvet ad is so damaging to Kerry.

[GT]

Broken ranks?

The subtitle of the report is :Critics Fail to Disprove Kerry's Version of Vietnam War Episode

For more on that WP report:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_08/004553.php

[Monique]

Settle down, gentlemen. I know the concept of Democrats fighting back against the Republican slime machine offends you. But it's still, for the moment, a two party system. If you're going to dish it out, learn to take it. We had to.

Thurlow has been discredited. He took a medal for something he claims John Kerry should not have gotten a medal for. His medal was not based on John Kerry's after report, as has been repeated, constantly, baselessly. Presumably he heard his citation being read to him the day he received it. The man has either perjured himself in his sworn affidavit or has gutlessly clung to a medal all these years he knew to be dishonest. Problem is, he never mentioned it in the book. And he "lost'" it. i give him credit for having gi-normous balls for his bald faced lying ability.

Now Rood has come forth saying Kerry neither shot a "single, fleeing, loinclothed teenager" but indeed a fullgrown VC, who was shooting at the boats along with other VC. O'Neil has perpetrated this defaming with a lawyer's oozy facility. He is despicable.

These men have dishonored not only Kerry, but all the other men who served on those dates. They have planted seeds of doubt in the minds of Americans everywhere as to what military medals mean, and as to the trustworthiness of the recorded documents of the US Navy.

You men ae angry that Kerry spoke out against the war. Others are proud of him for it. The Vietnam war was a murderous, meaningless war that meant nothing to our national security, and wasted over 55,000 beautiful young lives. To speak out, to help end it, was a great national service. I understand the anger of those who fought. However, doing what is asked by one's country, as these men did, as Kerry did, does not automatically mean that their country had the right to ask it.

In this country, we are entitled to believe what we feel in our hearts to be true. George Bush's sliime machine abused the pain of these Vietnam vets to attempt to destroy John Kerry's character.

The time has come for Jr. to stand up like a man and fight back for himself. If he has a record to run on, he better start running on it. Sending out goon squads to destroy his opponent's character is not the same thing as explaining to the American people - ALL the American people, not the handpicked ones in his programmed meetings - why they should reelect him.

I've read for days here all you want is the truth. Not revenge. The truth. Show your standards. All of us deserve an honest election, not a rigged, boobytrapped obstacle course.

Now we have it. Let's see whose integrity cracks first. I knew Kerr