JustOneMinute: I Attempt A Swift Ad

I Attempt A Swift Ad

If the Swiftee's new ad can excerpt Kerry's 1971 testimony, mine can too. And we will juxtapose Kerry's 2004 acceptance speech:

2004: I'm John Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty.

1971: I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

2004: I am accompanied by an extraordinary band of brothers led by that American hero, a patriot called Max Cleland.

Our band of brothers doesn't march together because of who we are as veterans, but because of what we learned as soldiers.

We fought for this nation because we loved it, and we came back with the deep belief that every day is extra. We may be a little older, we may be a little grayer, but we still know how to fight for our country.

1971: …they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam…

2004: I know what kids go through when they're carrying an M-16 in a dangerous place, and they can't tell friend from foe. I know what they go through when they're out on patrol at night and they don't know what's coming around the next bend. I know what it's like to write letters home telling your family that everything's all right, when you're not sure that that's true.

1971: I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

2004: I learned a lot about these values on that gunboat patrolling the Mekong Delta with Americans -- you saw them -- who come from places as different as Iowa and Oregon, Arkansas, Florida, California.

No one cared where we went to school. No one cared about our race or our backgrounds. We were literally all in the same boat. We looked out, one for the other, and we still do.

1971: …we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

2004: I defended this country as a young man…

1971: In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America.

Posted by Tom Maguire on August 21, 2004 | Permalink

Comments

I think it is understood we cannot cut and run from Iraq. Kerry has said as much. He talks about bringing home troops sooner rather than later because that is what people want to hear. Bush talks about us being close to establishing democracy because people also like to hear that. Neither possibility is likely.

I don't expect kerry to be able to establish peace in the wildfire this arrogant administration set ablaze. I just expect him to install an administration that will begin to inch us back towards a foreign policy based on reason rather than testosterone.

Posted by: Monique | August 23, 2004 at 01:58 PM

Monique, you bring up a point that we actually haven't heard much about. If Kerry were to win, just who exactly would he have in his cabinet? Early in the campaign, we heard complaints that his campaign staff was terribly lopsided in the diversity arena. I have not heard him float a single name or a list of those he would appoint to his cabinet. George Bush has the most facially diverse cabinet in history. You would think, since the Democrats love to talk about diversity, Kerry would come out with his cabinet being even more diverse than the current one. Care to give me some ideas of who that cabinet would be?

Posted by: Hutch | August 23, 2004 at 02:27 PM

I had begun to comtemplate that thought, Hutch. But this diversion from the campaign into the intricate world of action reports and eyewitness accounts from 35 years ago has made it harder to concentrate thoughts on important questions like that. The only thing I've really learned from this whole Swiftboat saga (aside from how brazenly some people will LIE) is that John Kerry went out on a hell of a lot of patrols where guns got fired and people got killed. And George Bush still didn't. Nothing really changed. I still know what I knew before: Kerry has been in that hell that our kids are in right now. (And yes, as the mother of three boys who are 19, 16 and 13, I am going to continue to call them "kids".) And it sounds like he did pretty decent. These guys can't decide if they want to defame him as a coward or as a hothead, but either way they aren't hiding the fact that he - pardon my French - did some scary shit. He's been there.

He had a right to bring it up. It's his history and he deserves the respect any warrior deserves. He also has a responsibility to answer the questions regarding his antiwar postions and activities. But what no one had a right to do is what this Bush hit squad did. Bush's boys never have a right to do the things they do. But they do it anyway. Some people somehow respect that. I don't.

Posted by: Monique | August 23, 2004 at 03:29 PM

"I believe this is the victory of the rednecks we are seeing, i.e. the best man to lead us to safety is the one who proves himself the dirtiest snake or the more ruthless character assasin."

Pardonnez moi, but exactly what the Sam Hill does redneckery, traditionlly held to be that state of existence as an American Southern or Southwestern white agrarian haphazardly-educated male, have to do with "the dirtiest snake or rhe more ruthless character assasin"? In my not inconsiderable experience over the last 40-odd years with both the agrarian American South and Southwest, and the ten most populous metropolitan areas in thr U.S., including New York, Washington D.C., Boston, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, Denver and Los Angeles, I have found those characteristics you ascribed to "rednecks" to be far, FAR more likely to be found on any one floor of any multi-story office building in any one of those metropolitan areas, than in an entire county in the rural South or Southwest.

And as far as likelihood of encounter, my experience informs me that there's about a 50-50 chance of coming up against an a**hole in the cities I noted, and about a 1-in-500 chance of meeting your verison of "redneck" in the South or Southwest.

And while I'm at it, I have found as well the chances of encountering such a low, unpleasant personality increase exponentially with the individual's having matriculated at UC Berkeley, any Ivy League School except Yale and Penn, or any of the traditional "Seven Sisters". I have never yet run into a graduate of the Universities of Virginia, Washington and Lee, William and Mary, LSU, Texas, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississipi, Georgia, Georgia Tech or Auburn (I am a graduate of no school listed) that took themselves half as seriously or were as openly contemptuous, venal and cold-blooded as the graduates of the schools op. cit. I speak in generalities, but by God there are a multitude more "rednecks" in Cambridge than have ever existed in Ooltewah, Itawamba or Rising Fawn.

Dammit, do not get me going.

Posted by: Jumbo | August 23, 2004 at 05:33 PM

"We are again in an unjust war that no one understands..."

Speak for yourself Monique. There are plenty of people that understand that a group of fundamentalist declared war on us. That this group of fundamentalist desires to force their belief on everybody. A group that sends children, strapped with bombs, on suicide missions to kill innocent people.

"I have heard the argument that we are going to be salvaging this situation by forcing democracy upon the Iraqis at the point of our grenade launchers ..."

The moral equivalency argument. It must be a terrible tragedy that we forced democracy on the Japanese and Germans after WWII. Monique go to some of the GI blogs and see if the Iraqi people feel we are “forcing democracy” on them. Try reading some of the Iraqi blogs, try making your moral equivalency argument to them.

“… and that this in turn will cause the rest of the Arab world to gratefully follow suit.”

Iraq will be the model, the proof so to speak. Iraq will counter the propaganda of the Arab dictatorships, that their situation is the fault of the West or the U.S. If we stick with Iraq long enough for them to establish a democracy Iraq will prosper. This will not go unnoticed by Arabs living under dictatorships. The propaganda of the dictators, used to shift blame for their own short comings, will wear thin. Unrest will force the dictators to make reforms, slowly, but it will happen. The pool of the discontent that breeds terrorist will slowly be drained and the Bin Laden’s of the world will find themselves without an army.

Posted by: Greg F | August 23, 2004 at 05:43 PM

For your reading pleasure Kerry campaign 527 collaboration.

Posted by: Greg F | August 23, 2004 at 06:56 PM

Greg, how long do you estimate this will take? Will any deviations from this delicate timeline be permitted? Or will all such deviations be treated as those unflung flowers were for our troops? And how many American lives would this noble adventure be worth? And what degree of superioir safety would this buy for us all?

I liked this line: "The propaganda of the dictators, used to shift blame for their own short comings, will wear thin."

Do you think the same will hold true for the USA once the Bush/Cheney/Rove machine has redistricted the USA so that only Republican idealogues are permitted an opportunity to run for office in a meaningful way?

I think what Republicans may not understand is that all the country does not follow their exact same brand of political religion. I listened to a NYC fireman, son of a WWII vet, brother of a Vietnam war vet, today on a talk radio show who said that these Swift Boat ads are "driving him up the wall". He says whenever he hears that "schmuck" Sean Hannity who never saw a day of combat, or even of boot camp, he wants to reach "through the radio and strangle him".

I hesitate to warn you, gentlemen, but you might be overestimating the welcome you think your message is receiving out here in the world. We are very much a divided nation. I am not sure if I am more afraid at the moment of the internal or external dangers we are facing.

Posted by: Monique | August 23, 2004 at 07:20 PM

Monique, how can you redistrict the US so that the Senate or House can only be won by Republican idealogues? One can try, as both parties have, to influence the House vote, but it is not possible to do the same with the Senate. And you can't honestly say that both parties don't attempt to do this.

Posted by: Hutch | August 23, 2004 at 07:32 PM

Hutch, I was saying that in the rhetorical sense. I realize the Republicans can't redistrict the entire US in four years. I am implying that is the kind of vision they have for America, a la Tom DeLay. I am explaining why so many people fear a reelection of George Bush, good people, patriotic, hardworking fellow citizens. We don't trust him. We think his interests are with the corporate billionaires of America. We don't want socialism. We want a fair approximation of the equable society that our forefathers envisioned.

I think a fascinating aspect of this election is the regional battle that is being waged. I want to thank Jumbo for reminding me of this.

I noticed that the largest block of contiguous blue states are made up of 12 of the original 13 colonies. Some in the redder states might not realize that we take our history rather seriously here, what with West Point, Boston Harbor, the Liberty Bell, and the Capitol Building all so close at hand. You really should not question whether we are patriots. I mean, really. It seemed our NYC firefighters and police (my uncle, my other uncle and my cousin) were cooperatively photogenic emblems for Bush when he wanted a podium. Take my word that this is not the general inclination this time around.

If Americans lose their right to dissent, ESPECIALLY in time of war, they lose their democratic voice. They expose themselves to tyranny. We are rather extremely effing brave here in these blue states. To think we hate Bush because we are pacifist cowards is to misjudge us in a very disrespectful way.

Posted by: Monique | August 23, 2004 at 08:05 PM

Very well said Monique. I guess this is what all politics must come down to at some point. People on opposite sides of issues who need to come together to actually discuss the merits of issues rather than just sling mud. As you are passionate in the vision you wish us to head as a nation, you must understand that there is an equally passionate group that thinks you are wrong. That's actually good, in the long run. I think we can all agree, no matter which side of any issue or which party we are affiliated with, that our current partisan politics is not very effective. There are so many issues that need to be resolved, yet Congress - as in both houses - seem unwilling to comromise unless there is something in it for them (pork).
As for your last post, I see one glaring similarity between us. That being, that we do not trust the other parties candidate. Republicans are probably just as scared of Kerry as you seem to be of Bush. Since I can only speak for myself, I will state that based upon his speeches, I believe he will not respect our soverignty as a nation in our best interests. His voting pattern, especially on defense measures, have me wondering what could he have been thinking when he voted the way he did. His record on taxes is not something to be proud of either, so I have a problem with the way he has promised trillions of dollars worth of outlays, yet can't show how he would generate that money. From reading the economic gurus analyze what he has said converning outlays vs expenditures, I just can't help but feel he will not be able to keep any promise to not raise taxes on middle America. I believe his suggestion that he will only raises taxes of those making $200K or more a year to be disengenious, as the average person doesn't understand that this includes Sub-S and LLC corporations. Those are small businesses that I just can't see not getting hurt if his promises are implemented. The only way I can see him funding all the promises he has made is to cut entitlements and I can't see him doing that to his political base.
Long day, so that is enough for me for now. Look forward to your response.

Posted by: Hutch | August 23, 2004 at 09:14 PM

Monique -

It would be better if each candidate had exactly the same amount of money to spend, for the same amount of time, and if they had to put their own name on each and every ad run on their behalf. Certainly if ALL those things were true, Bush would be in a pickle, never having run either a clean campaign or one not funded by filthy rich benefactors.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

And can you please tell me what is the distinction between the "rich" and the "filthy rich"?

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 12:03 AM

Monique -

I noticed that the largest block of contiguous blue states are made up of 12 of the original 13 colonies.

Apologies for the disrespectful remarks that follow, but...

1) are you high?

2) can you count?

3) what map are you looking at?

Virginia is a "blue" state?
North Carolina is a "blue" state?
South Carolina is a "blue" state"?
Georgia is a "blue" state?
New Hampshire is a "blue" state?
West Virginia (which was part of Virginia in colonial times) is a "blue" state?

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 12:11 AM

“Greg, how long do you estimate this will take?”

How long did Germany and Japan take Monique? Do you think anybody knew how long either of those countries would take beforehand? I don’t know how long it will take Monique, maybe 2 maybe 5, nobody knows. What I do know from reading many of the Iraqi blogs that there is a real hunger for freedom, there is real hope. I also know that what you see in the MSM is very distorted and over simplified, sometimes just downright lies. To paraphrase many of the GI’s over in Iraq referring to the news reports ‘are they reporting from the same planet’?

“And how many American lives would this noble adventure be worth?”

So Iraqi lives don’t count eh Monique? You know there is a word for that kind of mentality, it’s called bigotry. How many more Iraqi would have been killed by Saddam and his thugs had we not intervened? How many more Iraqi would have been murdered by his arguably more deranged sons when they took power? How many more mass graves would have been dug over the next decade? I suggest you take some time and read what Alaa has to say. Also the three brothers Omar, Ali, and Mohammed . Go through their archives, these are incredible people.

“And what degree of superioir safety would this buy for us all? “

Are you unaware of what effect the invasion of Iraq had on Moammar Gadhafi. He saw the writing on the wall and came clean on Lybia's nuclear weapons program.

“Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi took the decision to renounce all weapons of mass destruction (WMD) on Friday night, but while at first it was thought this only had implications for Libya it is now clear that his decision has scuppered a secret partnership between Libya, Iran and North Korea formed with the intention of developing an independent nuclear weapon.”

This also lead to the discovery and arrest of Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan who was involved in the black market sale of nuclear technology. See here here here
and here.

Getting late … enjoy the reads.

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 01:18 AM

Frank, apologies. I should have said 9 of the original 13. I was forgetting the way the colonies recombined as states. I was never counting Virginia. Yes, NH is blue. So I subtract 3. Thank you. My basic point stands.

Greg, I will try to read what you've linked. Can't right now for practical reasons. But suffice to say, Iraqi lives most definitely count to me. Given the carnage these civilians have experienced, and the casual way the media never mentions their casualty numbers, I had thought bringing up that point would label me a "bleeding heart liberal". As I said previously, while unseating cruel dictators is a noble deed, I do not think it is within the powers or charter of the US military to do so as a humanitarian mission. When I was younger, I used to wonder why not. As I've grown older and watched history develop, it has become clear to me that the US, to no discredit, picks and chooses among dictators based purely on its own self interest. I do not beleive this war is in our self interest. And I'm sure the Iraqi people are all fervently hoping that whatever lies in store for them justifies the great sacrifices they are enduring, and does in fact end up causing less death and misery for them than Saddam did. At the moment, for just a hint of the flaws in your theory, you should review the comments of the Iraqi soccer team at the Olympics. It will be exceptionally difficult to have a positive influence on people that loathe us with the passion that the Iraqis do. And the follow up, that other nations will fall like ..um, dominos... is also based on nothing more substantial than wishful thinking.

Hutch, thanks once again for your non-snarling replies. It is a blessing to discuss Conservative ideas without feeling the need for a plexiglas shield. It allows me to consider what you've written a lot more calmly.

First off, one area where we agree. The Congressional deadlock due to partisanship and "pork" is a great disservice to all Americans. It should be a priority of any President to put a stop to it. President Bush has given every indication that he wishes to keep it as is, to continue to pit region against region, to continue to allow favored states and businesses to gather unto themselves pork, fat, lard and grease. Another reason I dislike him. He is a most divisive President. As Mo Dowd also wrote recently : "Barack Obama was wrong to say there is not a liberal America and a Conservative America. There are two Americas, and George Bush has made it clear he intends to govern only one of them."

As to military spending: I have noticed that to Conservatives, military spending and military strength seem to be equivalent. This must be part of the reason for the exorbitant deficits these administrations seem to run in recent years. I agree that Kerry, like Cheney and so many others, did vote to cut military spending in a post Cold War era when we were being perhaps foolishly opitimistic about our future miliatary needs. I think a lot of these systems probably needed to go, as Cheney's agreeing votes would seem to indicate, but I'm no expert. I think missile defense systems (star wars, I presume?) are a waste of money better spent on developing other necessary technologies for the future. I do think the downsizing of the military has left our troops shortstaffed in a critical time, but I'm not sure this can be laid at the feet of Democrats, as I believe there was ample Republican complicity. Maybe you can clarify that for me.

Essentially, though, I don't think security is derived strictly from throwing money at military weapons systems. It is priimarily a matter of correct strategic planning and wise judgment. This is where I believe the Bush administration has most grievously derelicted its duty. They have sent our young into a war zone they did not adequately understand, with no comprehensive plan to get them home. When i read these glowing fictions about spreading democracy through military dominance, such as Greg believes in, I wonder why this rationale was not brought before the American people and the US Senate to be voted upon, as our Constitution demands. If THIS is why we are there, why wasn't that a good enough rationale to use at the time? This is not a small question. This goes to the heart of our sacred system of checks and balances. Whatever rationale is presented for Iraq, NOTHING in the run up to the war posed a threat so imminent that our Constitutional process needed to be abridged. That the Bush administration sought to do that is reason number one for me to vote them out.

Taxes are an argument liberals and conservatives can never agree on. I've had economists both lecture me and try to gently persuade me, but nothing ever really trumps the reality I've experienced. Under Republicans, the rich get richer and nothing trickes down. Under Democrats, we all get a little more equal, but the rich still stay plenty damn rich. I think the Democrats are more committed to balanced budgets. I run my household on a balanced budget. I respect that. I am all for th idea of taxing the rich harder, to spread the sacrifice of this war they all believe in so much. I think it would be wise to include exemptions for small businessess. Again, I believe Democrats have always been a friend to small business, and think that would be part of any Kerry plan.

I just want to say one more thing here on this Swiftboat ad, which I think will be gradually, and thankfully, leaving the airwaves soon. The more I have learned about it, the more heinous it appears. These men outright lied about another man's war record. They used a lot of O'Neills lawyerly tricks to cover themselves but that is what they did. Their next phase is going to attempt to impugn John Kerry for his youthful actions against the Vietnam war, using the miasma of doubt they so dishonorably created about his actions in combat. But as Bob Kerrey said yesterday (I'm sure the Republicans could just as easily made mincemeat of his heroism) :" They have done a better job of damaging the reputation of the U S Navy than they have of damaging John Kerry."

I contend that this is going to backfire in a massive way against the Republicans, starting now. You will see cable news, particularly Fox (whose behavior has been execrable), begin to back away from it. But people are going to remember what Bush did here. And no Americans, really none, are dumb enough to think that the technical hand-cleanliness of Bush's team means they weren't the absolute criminal masterminds of this whole disgusting thing. Whether they find the attacks wonderful or awful, they all know where they originated.

Even if this ad campaign ends up getting Bush reelected, which I doubt, it will only be a source for further bitterness in his second term. I predict, if Bush does win this, we will see Congressional investigations of his administration that will cripple it in a way that will finally put the Clinton witch hunts into perspective. Charges of war profiteering, corruption of intelligence and electoral fraud may finally be given an importance almost equal to the unheard of sin of a married man lying about extramarital sex.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 07:29 AM

Wow, that's brilliant. It makes about as much sense as Kerry's explanation of where he was on Christmas 1968.

And you still have your arithmetic wrong. It's 8 and 5, not 9 and...whatever. I suspect that you're counting Vermont (part of New York) and/or Maine (part of Massachusetts) as "colonies" - they did not exist as separate entities at the time. If you're going to do that, then I'm going to include Alabama (red), Mississippi, (red), Tennessee (red), Kentucky (red), Indiana (red), and Ohio (red). These were all territory claimed by the original 13 colonies. And I mentioned West Virginia (red) previously, without including it in my total.

I predict, if Bush does win this, we will see Congressional investigations of his administration that will cripple it in a way that will finally put the Clinton witch hunts into perspective.

Given that both Houses are Republican now, and have been for much the past 10 years, how is this going to happen? If Bush does win this time, it will be virtually impossible for the Democrats to seize control of both Houses to the extent that they can launch such "investigations" with impunity.

Your anger is poisoning you, Monique. You need to chill out, and look at the facts OBJECTIVELY, and re-assess your basic premises.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 08:24 AM

Monique -

Wow, that's creative arithmetic there. No wonder you're a fan of Kerry.

I predict, if Bush does win this, we will see Congressional investigations of his administration that will cripple it in a way that will finally put the Clinton witch hunts into perspective.

And how exactly is this going to happen, with a Republican-controlled House and Senate?

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 08:40 AM

Frank, are you saying that if evidence is presented that the President and/or his cabinet commited crimes or misused our instruments of government, that the House and Senate would cover for him out of a partisan, rather than patriotic, sense of responsibility?

That's kind of scandalous.

I realize sending 1000 soldiers to their deaths and 6000+ more to the VA hospital based on manipulated intelligence does not rise to quite the level of capital offense as lying about consensual sex. But still, these reports are due to appear after the election has been decided and these things will have to be dealt with. We have only seen the tip of the Halliburton iceberg as well. And I have heard some pretty loud Internet gossip that Scooter Libby will be indicted in the Valerie Plame affair, although most likely not until after the election.

Should be interesting.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 09:57 AM

And don't hope for all that much from these new Swiftvet ads either:

Quote from today's Washington Post:
"Phil Butler, who spent eight years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, took issue with suggestions by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that Kerry's antiwar protests caused the POWs to be treated badly. "I lived with two of the POWs who are now in that group -- Mr. [Ken] Courdier and Mr. [Paul] Gallanti -- and I am telling you, they are full of it. We never heard a blooming thing about John Kerry while we were there," said Butler, who contacted the campaign months ago to support Kerry and only recently heard back from Kerry's veterans coordinator, John Hurley.
Butler said that while he was tortured and mistreated until 1969, by the time Kerry was protesting the war and speaking before the Senate Armed Services Committee in 1971, the POWs were better treated."

In Oregon, protesters are demanding the resignation of Alfred French, a Clackamas Co. DA office employee, for lying via "sworn affidavit" on the first TV ad when he said " I served with John Kerry...he is lying about his record." French had to admit he had never seen John Kerry in his entire life and was only passing on hearsay from other veterans. Via sworn affidavit. What respect these men have for our institutions and the rule of law, eh?

I also heard Jim Wasser from Kerry's boat on the radio today, saying, "I can speak the truth. I AM the truth." It may have taken a few weeks for the truth to emerge on this. The press will not be as compliant in spreading the truth as they were in disseminating the perjurous lies of the Swiftvets. But I will still trust the American people to figure it out. Most of them.

If we are going to be debating Vietnam these many years later, the question should not be to John Kerry why he behaved in such an emotional way after the war when he was young and angry about a pointless slaughter, but why George Bush, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft (and the list could surely go on and on), who presumably supported that war as the great patriots they are, all thought it would be better if other young men did the dying.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 10:21 AM

Monique -

I realize sending 1000 soldiers to their deaths and 6000+ more to the VA hospital based on manipulated [sic] intelligence does not rise to quite the level of capital offense as lying about consensual sex. But still, these reports are due to appear after the election has been decided and these things will have to be dealt with.

Wow, the 9/11 commission has been in the news for the better part of a year, and you've already forgotten about it, let alone its conclusions. Particularly about how your friend Mr. Wilson was one of those most guilty of "manipulating intelligence". But I'm not surprised in the least.

And I have heard some pretty loud Internet gossip

I wouldn't doubt that for a second. The louder, the better. Bring it on.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 10:26 AM

“At the moment, for just a hint of the flaws in your theory, you should review the comments of the Iraqi soccer team at the Olympics. It will be exceptionally difficult to have a positive influence on people that loathe us with the passion that the Iraqis do.”

I don’t have much time at the moment but I would suggest you get the facts before drawing conclusions Monique. From one of the Iraqi bloggers:

“I know some of our American friends are upset with the Iraqi team because of the latest comments of some players, but this is Iraq, not 1 or 2 players and the player who said these terrible words didn't even play! I wish you could forget that idiot and join us in our celebrations, as the truth must be said, it's a victory that you helped in in so many ways.”

“Another point is that when someone wants to draw a conclusion from several comments he tend to pick the ones that lead to his conclusion in a strong way, yet all the reporter could come up with were comments from 2 players and the coach out of 22 players and several trainers, medical staff...etc So if those were the 'best' comments he could get, I'm interested to know what were the comments of the others since the comment from the 1st player (Sadir) was actually not that bad!”

And I don’t suppose you saw this picture of Iraqi athletes loathing the U.S.

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 10:30 AM

Monique, so far all the report US and British have found little manipulation of intelligence by the Bush Admin. There were Senate Intel Committee, the Butler Report, the earlier Butler report on the death of the UK scientist, the 911 committe. There is at least one report due after the elections. Who is to say that will see anything different?

Wishes and Horses, on your part, I do believe

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 10:41 AM

I would suggest you get the facts before drawing conclusions Monique.

You're whistling in the wind, my friend. Monique's spent the last four years investing every erg of her energy in waiting for "payback" for Al Gore's defeat in 2000. Any facts or logic that would prevent this from happening will be ignored.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 10:46 AM

Oh Oh, it lloks like another win for SBVFT.

check out http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002317.php

A Kerry spokesman admits that Kerry's first purple heart was for a unintentionally self-inflicted wound

GARRETT: And questions keep coming. For example, Kerry received a Purple Heart for wounds suffered on December 2nd, 1968. But an entry in Kerry's own journal written nine days later, he writes that, quote, he and his crew hadn't been shot at yet, unquote. Kerry's campaign has said it is possible his first Purple Heart was awarded for an unintentionally self-inflicted wound.

So that's 2 so far, cambodia and now this.

And the truth will set you free.

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 10:48 AM

Frank, the report dealing with the White House's interpretation and possible manipulation of intelligence has not been released and will not be untiil after the election. As for Joe Wilson, I was not aware of his active role in deciding our policy of war in Iraq.

You can deride me all you like. We will all just see how this turns out. One of the most enjoyable aspects for me watching current day politics is observing how rapidly Republicans become arrogant whenever they perceive they have an advantage, however ill gotten, such as with this repulsive Swiftvet campaign. They begin to ridicule and crow. Then, so very often, the bottom just gets ripped out from under them, and all the hypocrisy, all the moral cowardice is revealed. It's a sweet moment, and one worth waiting for.

Bush misplayed this Swiftvet thing. Watch and see. Now the convention is starting up in a city where these Republicans are going to feel about as welcome as ants at a picnic, with their craven greed and their arrogant sneering at an honest man's honest heroism will have been revealed.

Yeah, and then we'll hear what their Plan for the Future is. Hope they remembered to bring it.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 10:48 AM

Gosh, get your meme straight at least.

Tom Maguire is the one of the primary sources for all things on Wilson and Plame in the blogosphere. You could read the whole gory story if you wanted, which I doubt.

Anyway, Joe Wilson (long story) is one of the primary sources of the Bush lied meme. It has been proven that he Beyond a doubt, lied, and you don't have to trust me for that. It is also the verdict of the elected leaders democrat and republican.

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 11:01 AM

Working on longer post, but must stop to comment on this SBVFT commentary. One of the comments that I keep hearing, from many sources including MSM and bloggers, is that Kerry basically asked for this by making Viet Nam the cornerstone of his acceptance speech. I have no idea who's strategy that was, but I believe it will prove to be flawed. Now, once a single 527 comes out in support of Bush, everything changes? It is nice to see the MSM actually admit that Moveon.org, Media Fund, etc. have outspent SBVFT at a ratio of 23:1, yet have not been as effective in getting out the message. And pointing out alledged connections between SBVFT and Bush has boomeranged (sp) back on them in a way that makes them look like crybabies.

I'll finish up my longer post soon, once I get some more real work done here in the office. Until then, hope you enjoy taking a look at this link;
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/kerryawards.pdf

Posted by: Hutch | August 24, 2004 at 11:04 AM

Gee Whiz, Monique, arrogant republicans.

Maybe I missed something but I have not seen a single Bush campaign official make a SINGLE statement supporting the SBVFT claims. Can you?

On the other hand, let's not forget all the innuendos and rumors by Dean, Clark, Kerry et al publicly dissing Bush's record (based on no facts). Not only that, but an attack against Dole's and Bush Sr's WW2 records.

Yes arrogant but the arrogance is in the democratic side of the house.

Let's rename the democratic party the demogogic party. It seems more appropriate.

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 11:10 AM

I've read the whole Wilson yellowcake story. I was being facetious in my comment to Frank. It's not a very clear story, the usual partisan muddying of the facts. I also don't think it matters much either way. It's not as if we consider Bush a liar for that one incident alone. The man's entire march to war was a choreography of lies, misrepresentations and propaganda. And whatever Wilson did or didn't do, if one of the President's men leaked the name of Plame, as I hear they have a "well tuned canary" within the White House singing to - that simply will be a story apart.

The Swiftvet crap would have come out even if John Kerry never mentioned Vietnam once. The Republicans started gathering dirt on each and every Democratic challenger during the primaries. And I am amazed - no kidding, amazed! - at the way you guys simply ignore case after case where these Swiftvets have been refuted. It doesn't matter to you that one by one they are being revealed as liars. Some clearly. Some have done a better job of fudging their words, a la the oozy lawyer O'Neill.

You don't seem to care that they lied. How anyone can say Kerry "brought this on himself" - this being a lying smear campaign - by attesting to his own history is really beyond me.

Bush has been behind 527s since day one. His campaign BEGAN the concept with their group formed during the Florida recount. Any ad that attacks a candidate's record or expresses an opinion, stated as an opinion, seems to be to be ethical. This is NOT what these ads were, and are. They were slimy, unethical LIES told to defame the character of an American citizen for the crime of going to Vietnam, coming home to oppose it and then serving his country in elected office for over 20 years. Disgusting.

Of course, his only real crime was daring to run for office against George Bush.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 11:22 AM

Monique -

Now the convention is starting up in a city where these Republicans are going to feel about as welcome as ants at a picnic

The city which elected two mayors, who presided over that city from 1978 through 2002 (minus the four years of David Dinkins' (mis)administration), who will be speaking at said convention?

News flash - there's more to New York City than that part of Manhattan between Chambers Street and 34th Street.

It's always funny when you and your ilk claim to have an instantaneous telepathic connection with the entire population of this country.

with their craven greed

I'm sorry, I'm just ROTFL laughing at the thought of New York City being repulsed by "craven greed".

an honest man's honest heroism will have been revealed

He's not honest, and neither is his "heroism". And neither is your claim that he is.

Oh, and I think ants are cool.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 11:43 AM

Monique -

Now the convention is starting up in a city where these Republicans are going to feel about as welcome as ants at a picnic

The city which elected two mayors, who presided over that city from 1978 through 2002 (minus the four years of David Dinkins' (mis)administration), who will be speaking at said convention?

News flash - there's more to New York City than that part of Manhattan between Chambers Street and 34th Street.

It's always funny when you and your ilk claim to have an instantaneous telepathic connection with the entire population of this country.

with their craven greed

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 11:47 AM

Newsflash Frank. I was born in New York City, as was every member of my family who was born in this country, including my 3 sons. I think I know this city a hell of a lot better than you do. My family has served in it's police force, fire department, transit department, corrections department, its hospitals and its schools. If you had heard the fireman on the radio yesterday that I heard, expressing his rage at the coward Hannity and the way he has abused John Kerry's military record...Suffice to say, I don't think you have any idea what the real New York is.

We didn't hate Bush when he came and put his arm around an old fireman. But we hate him now. Including our mayor, if you scratch below the surface, for the way he has endorsed spreading the Homeland Security pork around the country rather than concentrating it here, where it really matters. We don't like him synchronizing his terror alerts to his poll numbers . And most of all, we don't appreciate him using our dead for his political ads or for any other aspect of his political campaign. Run on your record, George, not on the graves of our citizens.

As for Rudy, I imagine, like John McCain, he's trying to keep his political fences nice and tight for the day when the ultra right wing loses its death grip on their party. Then guys like Rudy, pro abortion, pro gay marriage Republicans like him, may feel they can put their heads back up and expect some party support.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 12:03 PM

I was born in New York City, as was every member of my family who was born in this country

Please get off your high horse. While it's true that I don't actually live in New York, I have spent a substantial amount of time there and maintain strong ties with friends and relatives there, and I know MANY people where I live who are ex-New Yorkers. Plus, I read all of the major New York City newspapers regularly, if not daily. So I'm not as out-of-touch with the pulse of New York City, as you seem to be with the entire USA. My opinions are based on actual objective observations, not the emotional dogma with which you are strangling your mind.

If you had heard the fireman on the radio yesterday that I heard, expressing his rage

What radio show was it? At any rate, the keyword here is "anecdote".

spreading the Homeland Security pork around the country rather than concentrating it here, where it really matters.

So just because 9/11 happened in New York, that means absolutely no other location in the US is vulnerable to terrorist attack? You continue to astound me.

Please count the number of times you've used words like "angry", "rage" etc. Your futile hatred is burning you up.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 12:23 PM

Monique -

So how do you account for Ed Koch, Democratic Mayor of New York City for 12 years?

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 12:33 PM

Monique, you write like a crazed moonie stereotype. After listening to all the ridiculous demagogy, smears, slanders and outright gut busting faux populism, I have to make this one comment.

You seem to be the sort of person who has read the entire works of Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky and has spent their time talking to like minded cultists. I doubt very much you have spoken to any "real" people in your entire life. You view "real" people in a politically colored sort of rose glasses. The divide into two camps, those among the proliteriat, oppressed under the jackboot of BusHilterCheneyHaliburton and those under enenmies of freedom allied with said above. How very black and white of you.

I doubt any of your self professed story is true, but who cares anyway. Identity on the blogosphere is rather cheap currency anyway. I could easily say I was the count of Monte Criso for all that would count here.

I have got to say that your commentary has given me a huge amount of laughter. You must be a put-on because you seem too silly to have any existence in reality.

Sorry, but I have to say out loud what everyone must be thinking. :)

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 12:38 PM

so lets get back to meme busting, shall we:

Ridiculous piece of demagogy 1: "Bush has been behind 527s since day one."

Oh really! facts to support this thesis? No, she don't need no stinkin' facts.

Lets look at the records shall we: the facts say otherwise

Media Fund
Receipts: $ 28,127,488
OpenSecrets.org Description: "One of the leading Democratic interest groups dedicated to defeating President Bush in November. Plans to raise close to $100 million for a massive issue-ad campaign to support the Democratic presidential nominee. The ads will air in 17 battleground states."

America Coming Together
Receipts: $26,905,450
OpenSecrets.org Description: "One of the leading Democratic interest groups dedicated to defeating President Bush in November. Run by longtime Democratic operatives and financed in part by wealthy Democratic donors, the group plans a massive voter mobilization effort in 17 battleground states."

MoveOn.org
Receipts: $9,086,102
OpenSecrets.org Description: "Begun in 1998 to protest the impeachment of President Clinton, the group has become a powerful political force since then. Its political action committee, the MoveOn PAC, spends millions of dollars to support the election of Democratic candidates. The MoveOn.org Voter Fund is raising soft money, which may be contributed in unlimited amounts, for TV ads in key battleground states that are critical of President Bush."

Service Employees International Union: $ 16,652,296
American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees: $ 13,658,207
New Democrat Network: $ 7,172,693
Voices For Working Families: $ 3,668,280
Partnership for America's Families: $ 3,071,211

Let's add this up shall we: $108,341,727

That's a lot of money against Bush and pro Kerry, isn't it.

Ok, to be fair lets look at the SBVFT:

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
Receipts: $ 158,750
OpenSecrets.org Description: "SBVT represents Vietnam Swift boat veterans who are critical of Democrat John Kerry's decision to make his military service a major part of his campaign for president. The group questions Kerry's record in Vietnam and denounces his anti-war activities following his military service. The group's donors include some major Republican contributors."

158 thousand measly dollars against 100 Million. Holy smoke, batman.

Just like Monique to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 12:53 PM

Now on to some meme busting:

Monique said something ridiculous: Bush has been behind 527s since day one.

Off course there should be a fact to support this thesis. Monique, of course, is not bothered by some trivial things as facts.

So what do the real facts say?

and to a lesser extent:

The total ammounts to about 108 Million dollars. Yes, that is a 9 digit figure.

Ok, let's be fair and see what SBVFT are at:

So 108 Millions dollars pro Kerry/anti bush compared to a measly 158 thousand dollars of just anti keery (no pro bush in the ads)

So Monique, what say you?

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 01:08 PM

Sorry for 2 versions of the same post,

my browser crashed when I hit post and I thought the post died so I rewrote it from memory.

sigh!

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 01:11 PM

Well, I see the goon squad of Mock and Guffaw is back. You doubt my biography is true, capt. joe? What is so astonishing about it? I was born in Mercy Hospital in Jamaica, Queens. Look it up. I've lived most of my life in Wantagh on Long Island, and in Queens, NY, in the neighborhoods of Astoria and Jackson Heights. All my children were born in St. Luke's Roosevelt Hospital. They went to grammar school at St. Joan of Arc and at PS 69. I mean, what is so unbelievable about any of this?

I somehow suspect the NYC that Frank knows involves his metropolitan business contacts. He also seemed to be implying that my experience with NY was the Greenwich Village area. Yeah, it's a nice place to visit Frank, but my family couldn't afford NYU. I did work there one summer in a pet shop though, during high school.

Right now I live outside of the city and work in White Plains, in Westchester, a very wealthy suburb. I work for a legal firm that does high end real estate and land use/zoning work. What really has astonished me lately is how very FEW of my wealthier colleagues will be voting for George Bush. I had always assumed he'd have a lot of support there. But out of about 24 employees, I've only counted 5 or 6 that don't passionately despise him. I overheard one of the lawyers the other day on the phone saying, "Time to re-defeat Bush" and then laughing his head off.

I went rafting with my kids this weekend in the Delaware River Gap in northern Pennsylvania. Flags flying from porches everywhere, yellow ribbons on all kinds of cars...and Kerry lawn signs, Kerry bumper stickers.

Anecdotal. Of course. And I know there is another country out there. There ARE two Americas, in more ways than one. But you guys don't really seem to understand where the other side is coming from at all. you think you will win this election by calling Bush's opponents cowards and lowlifes. I'm just telling you that isn't the truth and it isn't going to work.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 01:18 PM

Why do you guys only link to partisan Republican sites?

How about going to the FEC site? They have a nice one there, Republican Governors Association, 2nd largest 527 in the nation. Bush & Laura appeared on the magazine cover of another 527, National Federation of Republican Women, who are planning a tribute to Laura at the convention. Bush/Cheney used 527s in 2000 to smear John McCain, with the help of the criminal Sam Wylie. The RNC donates money directly to GOPAC. The GOP promotes Progress for America, The Leadership Forum. And so on and so on. Best sites are the FEC site and opensecrets.com.

Bush is being a hypocrite about the 527s but that comes as no surprise. Both sides use 527s. That is not the issue. That has never been the issue. Let people say what they want in a political campaign, as long as it is about the issues, or identified as their opinions and not POLITICALLY MOTIVATED SLANDER AND LIES.

I KNOW you guys can understand the difference. I know Bush understands the difference. And guess what? My guess is the American people can understand the difference as well.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 01:43 PM

I was born in Mercy Hospital in Jamaica, Queens. Look it up. I've lived most of my life in Wantagh on Long Island, and in Queens, NY, in the neighborhoods of Astoria and Jackson Heights. All my children were born in St. Luke's Roosevelt Hospital. They went to grammar school at St. Joan of Arc and at PS 69.

Nice try. :)

What really has astonished me lately is how very FEW of my wealthier colleagues will be voting for George Bush.

Ah, yes...Westchester County, the heart of "Red America", LOL...So now you're saying that the Democrats are the party of the Greedy Filthy Rich? You can't even keep your lines straight.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 01:54 PM

Nice try? What the HELL are you talking about?

Shall I go on? My uncle, Wally Nolan, NYPD 25 years, Korean war vet. Deceased.

My uncle, Warren Diener, NYFD, Captain, WWII vet. Deceased.

My cousin, Micky Wilson, Vietnam vet, the one who took me to my only peace rally in my childhood, 20 years with NYC Transit, still runs a train.

My cousin, Pete Weiland, is in only his 2nd year NYFD. Joined after 9/11.

My aunts, Anne Weiland and Marie Diener, both nurses in many metropolitan hospitals, now retired.

My cousin Steve Diener and my sister Kathy Senneville, teachers in NYC schools, both public and parochial.

I also have a family member who works at Fox News, but I'll leave those details out, considering the climate there.

Do you people just question other human being's biographies as a matter of course? Do we not even get to claim our own histories without being attacked? It's like a sickness.

And as for Westchester, I don't know if it's red white or purple. I just know it's RICH. And it struck me as funny that even there Bush is hated. But not universally. The top partner has a giant framed photo of himself and bush shaking hands. And this really old judge, who is 92 and only comes into the office a few times a month, has a nice Bush calendar of him clearing brush and such. So you're right, you are represented here.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 02:28 PM

Sorry, but I'll need more proof than just a couple of names pulled out of a phone book.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 03:05 PM

Monique

Oh please, no one can verify any of that and you know what? It DOESN't matter. Who cares?

I could go on and on about my personal story, blue collar upbringing, father worked his life in a hard rock (copper/gold) mine, he died of silocosis while I was a teenager, I joined the army to pay the bills, worked my way up to captain in the army, got out, went back to school, etc, etc. All very interesting to me of course but you can't verify any of it, not do I care whether you believe it or not.

In short, all very immaterial. I know, let's have a contest on who has the better proliteriat story. ;)

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 03:33 PM

Hey. Tom, I think the comments length on this one post is causing typepad to implode sometimes new comments are added.

Anyway, it's happened several times for me.

Maybe you can start a new post to carry over the discussion?

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 03:41 PM

Monique, I really like how you are able to make an outrageous claim, and then when someone catches you on it, insist that was not your point and then create a new one out of whole cloth.

Oh, if you don't like the data it must be a lie. Oh, I see.

And of course, no post of yours has ever had any backing facts, no docs, no links for us to even evaluate. Just wild assertions.

Yeah, well, your boy has been been getting a lot of help from his pet 527s (100 Million worth) to direct ads against Bush. Too bad, none of it seems to be working.

You must be a member of that particular Oscar Wilde philopsophy that involves believing seeral impossible things before breakfast.

yawn. so tiresome

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 04:01 PM

Hey, did you hear?

Kerry is admitting that his first purple heart was a unintentionally self-inflicted wound

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002317.php

That makes swifties 2 kerry zero so far.

swifties: Kerry's was not on Cambodia at Xmas - kerry admitted his account was incorrect

swifties: Kerry's 1st PH was self inflicted as the result of firing a grenade launcher too close to the shore - kerry now admitting that was probably the case.

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 04:13 PM

“When i read these glowing fictions about spreading democracy through military dominance, such as Greg believes in..”

You’re a liar Monique, I never said such a thing.

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 04:29 PM

“When i read these glowing fictions about spreading democracy through military dominance, such as Greg believes in..”

You’re a liar Monique, I never said such a thing.

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 04:36 PM

Monique writes:
“We don't want socialism.”

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s a duck. What you want Monique is the government to steal from somebody else to give to you, you’re a socialist. You actually believe this will make you richer in spite of the evidence to the contrary, greed is so blinding. The real irony is the socialist employer you have is giving you first hand experience in socialist compassion, but your so blinded by hate you can’t see it.

We want a fair approximation of the equable society that our forefathers envisioned.”

You don’t have the first clue what the founders of this country were attempting. If you did you would realize that your socialist friends are antithetical to the founders vision.

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 04:47 PM

Kim il Sung has officially endorsed Kerry!

"The North Koreans made it very clear, politely, that they want Mr. Kerry to win the election," said C. Kenneth Quinones, a former U.S. diplomat who was in Pyongyang

Is this the sort of place that Kerry needs?

whew, glad I am not on that side. Pretty Embarrassing I would say.

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 05:00 PM

What exactly am I supposed to be proving to you , Frank? That I'm a New Yorker by birth and by heritage? That New Yorkers hate Bush? Holy Christ, what a bunch of paranoid creeps you freepers are. If Bush felt confident of the love and gratitude of New Yorkers maybe he'd be spending more than 6 hours here during the convention. He's persona non grata here, plain and simple, and he knows it, if you don't.

I think I've been here long enough. The wonderfully civil conversation I had yesterday with Hutch was not really representative of any chance for inter-political dialogue.

It's been worthwhile visiting here, though, as it reaffirms all the reasons we want to see this President re-defeated. The thought of having a country run by the kind of knuckleheaded illogic and smug coldheartedness I encounter in freeper sites is enough to keep all of us out working as hard as we can until we get the regime change we need here. I'll never understand why people who claim to worship American democracy hold the process and their fellow citizens to such scorn.

Maybe we really need to become two countries.

Good luck, boys. You're gonna need it.

Posted by: Monique | August 24, 2004 at 05:52 PM

Well, it was a nice visit. You have given me a new appreciation for my side of the political map that I did not have before. That was worth the trip.

I certainly thank you all the cheap shots, insults, collective slanders and outright demagogy you left us with.

Good luck back at IndyMedia or DU or wherever characters like you dwell.

One more thought for you to live with in November.

BUSH - 4 MORE YEARS!!

Thanks, and don't let the facts hit you in the butt on your way out. ;)

Posted by: capt joe | August 24, 2004 at 06:12 PM

Monique wrote:
"I listened to a NYC fireman, son of a WWII vet, brother of a Vietnam war vet, today on a talk radio show who said that these Swift Boat ads are "driving him up the wall".

Ummm ... am I missing something here? Are the Swiftboat ads running in NYC or do we have another bold faced liar?

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 06:16 PM

"The thought of having a country run by the kind of knuckleheaded illogic and smug coldheartedness..."

Describes Monique and her employer to a tee.

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 06:31 PM

Monique -

I noticed that you never answered my question about Ed Koch, the Democratic Mayor of New York City for 12 years (1978-90), who is endorsing Bush at the RNC next week, or that the Mayors of New York City for 22 years out of the past 26 years have either been Republican or have endorsed Bush.

Or maybe those mayoral elections were stolen just like the 2000 Presidential election supposedly was.

Or maybe there are "two New Yorks", as you claim there are "two Americas".

A final question - on your recent trip to the Delaware valley, did you see any Bush stickers/signs? And when I say "any", I mean, "one, or more than one".

smug coldheartedness I encounter

Wha's'a madda, Monique? Daddy didn't give attention?

But I guess it's a natural reaction to your smug hotheadedness.

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 24, 2004 at 07:02 PM

"And don't hope for all that much from these new Swiftvet ads either"

I can understand how someone who limits news-intake to Duncan Black, Josh Marshall, Oliver Willis etc., could actually be misled into believing that either the first or second rounds of SBVFT ads have not been devastating for Kerry. I mean, really, those bloggers are almost as doctrinaire and ideologically blinkered to fact as the NYT.

But monigue spends hours every day at j.o.m., and she has at least been exposed to the concept that maybe the ads have been somewhat effective (if by "somewhat effective" we mean in the sense that the Black Death was a "somewhat effective" control on medieval Europe's population. Because as anyone who has looked outside the lefty blogs now fearfully huddled next to each other can see, Team Kerry is in near freefall. Those people are in near desperation. So monique says, "don't hope for all that much from the new ads EITHER"? My God; that's congnizant delusion.

*channeling Dido* "I will go down with this ship; I will keep my flag flying."

Posted by: Jumbo | August 24, 2004 at 08:49 PM

"You really should not question whether we are patriots. I mean, really."

There it is. The cause of the Civil War. Sorry, it wasn't slavery, or states rights, or the industrial society versus the agrarian. It was "redneck" Southerners and Texans having had at that point almost 250 years of smug, supercilious, schoolmarmish superiority from the Northeastern states. And being fed up to the gills with that attitude. It's still that way. I see.

Posted by: Jumbo | August 24, 2004 at 09:00 PM

Monique - Tried to send you e-mail, but it bounced. Please send me a valid e-mail address to my mail account if you would like to continue the conversation we had started earlier.

Posted by: Hutch | August 24, 2004 at 09:20 PM

Frank IBC,

I shudder when you talk about the present mayor of NYC as being a elephant when in fact he is a rino.

Posted by: Greg F | August 24, 2004 at 09:41 PM

"Ummm ... am I missing something here? Are the Swiftboat ads running in NYC or do we have another bold faced liar?"

I'm in NYC and there are no ads that I've seen. In fact there are precious few political ads of any kind here -- everyone knows how the state is going to vote so why waste money here?

Of course, there are precious few Swift Boat ads running *anywhere*, they only had, what, $150,000? -- it's hardly like Soros funding Moveon.org with millions of dollars to run its attack machine.

The Swift Boad ads have had almost all their impact through news reports about them. If somebody in NYC is being driven nuts by that, hey, just change the channel. It's not like there's a shortage of news stations.

Of course, Kerry is protesting them through the news as well. Opinionjournal has a really nicely snarky take on that today:
~~~

"I called the media ... I said, 'If I take some crippled veterans down to the White House and we chain ourselves to the gates, will we get coverage?' 'Oh, yes, we will cover that.'"
--John Kerry, testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, April 22, 1971

"Kerry is sending to Crawford former Sen. Max Cleland of Georgia ... a fellow Vietnam War veteran who lost three limbs during the war ... to deliver a letter protesting the ads to Bush at his heavily guarded ranch, Kerry aides said."
--Reuters, Aug. 25, 2004

Hey, why not? It worked before!

Posted by: Jim Glass | August 25, 2004 at 05:13 PM

Who's a freeper? Not I.

Before Monique wrote that last rant, I just thought she was misguided. Now I think she's misguided, rude, arrogant and, hopefully, gone.

Posted by: Slartibartfast | August 26, 2004 at 10:04 AM

Oh that liberal media ....

http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0826/local/stories/01local.htm

Posted by: TexasToast | August 26, 2004 at 12:32 PM

Monique's "Two Americas" -

Massachusetts, New York City (except outer Brookyn and Queens, Staten Island), San Francisco, the District of Columbia, parts of Wisconsin and Minnesota...

...and...

Absolutely everywhere else.

Google search for "Monique + Anger"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=monique+anger

Posted by: Frank IBC | August 26, 2004 at 02:14 PM