Memeorandum


Powered by TypePad

« Back To The Book | Main | Operation Spear »

June 17, 2005

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451b2aa69e200d83424171653ef

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Don't Know Much About History...:

» DURBIN WATCH: HISTORY LESSONS from Michelle Malkin
Bloggers are serving them up... Donald Sensing on what the Nazis did (Graphic). My Pet Jawa on what Saddam Hussein did (Graphic). Rand Simberg on Cambodian interrogation techniques. Varifrank weighs in. Rocco diPippo has some valuable background on the... [Read More]

» THE DURBIN DEBACLE from Pejmanesque
Like McQ, I thought it best to ignore the Dick Durbin comparison between American soldiers and Nazis. After all, it is only the latest proof of Godwin's Law and after a while, one really does get tired of pointing to... [Read More]

» Durbin and the Nazis from netcynic.com
Senator Dick Durbin has gotten himself in trouble with some people - Glenn Reynolds has said he would censure Durbin if he were in the Senate, and the Boston Globe has called for his resignation- over some Amnesty International like comments. I pers... [Read More]

» Furor Over Senator's Gitmo Remarks from Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator
The White House slammed Sen. Dick Durbin for comparing U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay to Nazis [Read More]

» THE DURBIN DEBACLE from Pejmanesque
Like McQ, I thought it best to ignore the Dick Durbin comparison between American soldiers and Nazis. After all, it is only the latest proof of Godwin's Law and after a while, one really does get tired of pointing to... [Read More]

» Chicago PD A Gulag from Say Anything
... [Read More]

Comments

Crank

I hate Illinois Nazi-equaters.

Al

Hey! Clicking through to Malkin, I see that there is one MSM paper that realized that if Trent Lott had to resign his leadership post for his stupid comment, then Dick Durbin SURELY has to similarly resign for his incredibly offensive slander.

Kudos to the Boston Herald!

Ugh

I believe Durbin's was asking: given the information in the report he read into the record, would you think Nazis before you thought Americans? I would, anyone else?

Half Canadian

Ugh,
Not I. I would have thought basic training or pledge week.

www.liberalavenger.com

It is sick how you neocon fascists try to dodge the responsibility of Abu Ghraib and the US neoimperialistic and corporate abuse of democracy and social justice. how much does this blogger get paid by PNAC and the GOP to post this? where does his money come from? You just a front for a crypto-fascist neoconservative cabal and an an oil war masquerading as an endless crusade against "terrorism."

We need to stop the hate and regulate these "warbloggers" now. Write to your congressperson or senator today.

[UPDATE: Eventually, the real Liberal Avenger declares this comment to be a malicious spoof. TM]

Ron

Not me, Ugh, me and my friends were meaner than that to each other for fun. The Nazis exterminated 9 million Jews. Think of the population of NYC.

And that doesn't count the World War they started.

Dan Darling

LA:

I've got to say, with rhetoric like that and events like this, I gotta say that there's a part of me that has to wonder whether folks like you aren't yourself the result of some marvelous GOP/PNAC conspiracy to make the opposition appear utterly beyond the pale ...

Bedrock Guy

Liberal Avenger: Hi. Do you really believe the garbage you write? I checked your website. A Berkeley educated liberal from MA. Says it all, right there.

Your side is correct that abuses have occured at GITMO and other locations. But, why do you and your extremist allies have to turn this into enemy propaganda. Have you no sense of honor? Of Patriotism? Spare me the left wing garbage that patriotism requires one to expose GITMO. That only gets you to the point where you ensure the proper authorities know about the problem. That does not give you the right to undermine the war effort and call our soldiers Nazis, or equate their work to the Reich, or the Soviet Union or Pol Pot. And you guys wonder why we hold you in such contempt. r/ Bedrockguy

Outlaw_Wizard

liberalavenger,

If this sickens you, then hurry up and die.

Abu Ghraib came to light well after the investigations into wrongdoing were reported up the chain of command. Note that there have alredy been trials by courts martial and convictions arising from those abuses.

Your moral scales are so out of calibration it would be amusing, were it not so serious.

On our very worst day the United States does not begin to approach the depravity of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, nor Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge. Not. Even. Close.

Those who would suggest such a comparison is valid should be horse whipped, tarred, feathered, and run out of this nation on a rail.

Sincerely
Da_Wiz

TexasToast

Darn

I thought Beto would hold the record for the most over th top comment I've seen on Tom's blog for longer than an hour. Thanks LA!

Razorgirl

If Durbin wants to know about torture, he should come to my house and experience nightly sleep deprivation due to the loud maruichi music provided by the illegal alien population of northwest Arkansas. Hey, ACLU-Can I sue if I go to sleep while driving and have an accident?

slatanic

Who cares about Gitmo, really? How many of you are upset about the abuse there. Can't be that bad, those released return to the battle. "So nice, you go back twice!" - Chris Rock, Born Suspect. I don't think that there is enough torture going on; I think there should be nothing but Billy Grahams Revival readings, pork chops and HEAT for those sub-humans from the other side of the planet.
Liberal Avenger, your use of big words like "neoimperialistic" (i'm not sure that is even a word) and your support for "social justice" is translated into Arabic as "total pussy; some guy who gets walked on; probably single and the only girl he had left because she didn't want to wear the pants in a relationship with a spineless jellyfish." Your a tool, your days are numbered, and I like guns, especially guns being used against the nations enemies. We need to bring the pain to the muslim world, believe me, they have no less intentions for us.

vero

liberalavenger,

What no poem, You sir are a fraud if your "graduated" from Berkeley and you don't start every post with ""hey hey ho ho" The Real Berkeley types read poems the day after the attacks on 9/11 and blamed us.

you are a fraud

Geek, Esq.

Ah, the Limbaughesque "it was nothing more than a hazing" refrain returns.

I guess the consensus on the right is that cruel and degrading punishment, but which falls just short of torture, is more American than Nazi or Stalinist.

I guess libruls like Durbin just have higher standards.

Geek, Esq.

I also imagine that the rightwing will start a campaign to condemn Jerry Seinfeld for daring to create a character called "The Soup Nazi."

TM

how much does this blogger get paid by PNAC and the GOP to post this?

Not enough - not anything, actually - but I will listen to offers!

Geek, Esq.

Also, would Glenn Reynolds introduce legislation censuring the person who said this?

"The EPA, the Gestapo of government, pure and simply has been one of the major claw-hooks that the government maintains on the backs of our constituents."

I guess the comparison of cruel, degrading, and inhuman treatment to the Nazis is just not as offensive as comparing Environmental regulators to Nazis in conservative circles.

TexasToast

On Sunday morning, [May 1, 2005] Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson told TV viewers nation-wide that the threat posed by liberal judges is "probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings." When an incredulous George Stephanopoulos asked if Robertson really believed that these judges posed "the most serious threat America has faced in nearly 400 years of history, more serious than al Qaeda, more serious than Nazi Germany and Japan, more serious than the Civil War?," he responded, "George, I really believe that."


Sorry Geek, its the judges. They are much scarier than Gitmo.

James

We need to stop the hate and regulate these "warbloggers" now. Write to your congressperson or senator today.

So much for freedom of speech. Anytime someone says something you don't like accuse them of corruption and claim that they should be stopped. Liberals only like freedom of "their" speech.

doug

Also, would Glenn Reynolds introduce legislation censuring the person who said this?

"The EPA, the Gestapo of government, pure and simply has been one of the major claw-hooks that the government maintains on the backs of our constituents."

I believe that Tom Delay was comparing (correctly or not) the enforcement power of the EPA to the Gestapo's. He was not insinuating that the EPA is involved in some "cruel, degrading, and inhuman treatment", which is exactly what Durbin was doing.

Geek, Esq.

Sorry, TT, but the EPA folks are a much bigger threat to the United States.

After all, the Republican leadership in Congress says they're NAZIS!!!


Doug:

Does the EPA have the authority to shoot people and drag them off to death camps?

BumperStickerist

death camps?

Leftism = Slave Morality

Geek needs to take a logic class instead of running the "Don't Look Here, Look at the Evil Hyopocrite" play leftists so love to use.

The fact Tom Delay said one thing does not absolve Durbin of what he said.

Tom Delay may beat his dog, but Durbin is still a seditious asshole.

TM

Since we have segued to absurd comparisons, let's play "Who Said" with this:

Mr. Cheney... remains in charge of energy policy. And that scares me more than terrorism.

...Osama bin Laden can't destroy Western civilization. Carbon dioxide can.

Well, no Nazi comparison there, anyway.

Anyway, one might argue that comparing the EPA to Nazis (which was a wrong thing to do) only gives aid and comfort to polluters; when a Senator compares America's troops to Nazis, it is a propaganda victory for folks trying to kill us.

Of course, in light of the opening quote, I may have the wrong priorities.

Geek, Esq.

Durbin said that cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct is more consistent with Nazi values than American values.

And the conservatives think he's wrong?

Geek, Esq.

Oh, TM, please. He's not comparing the troops to Nazis.

He's comparing reprehensible conduct to Nazi-like conduct.

Nor is he comparing the reprehensible conduct to the very worst things the Nazis did.

Example: Having thugs beat up political opponents would be exactly like what the Nazis did. Comparing such behavior to the Nazis would not be the same as comparing the act of beating up political opponents to the Holocaust.

capt joe

Jeez, I thought LA was joking until read further. I can't believe how far over the top you lefties have gotten.

crematoriums <--> shit in the pants

Yep, I see it, if I drink enough, yep, maybe, ...

Texastoast, so Robertson is stupid, d'uh! What else is new. You won't get any argument here. I never read that nutcase, why do you?

Talking apples with apples, Delay got his comeupance for a stupid remark, why are you guys refusing to request Durbin's for a remarkably stupid false remark.

I guess you support the troops when they shoot their officers, right?

Leftism = Slave Morality

Durbin accused all American service men and women of cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct WITHOUT EVIDENCE. He compared them to Nazis. What he said is seditious and libelous.

Mr. Geek: Your parlor tricks won't covert us to the Slave Morality and convince us 2+2=5. We can see right through it.

Geek, Esq.

Supporting the troops isn't the same as supporting cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct.

Tom DeLay's comeuppance was becoming the most powerful member of Congress. By that logic, Durbin's remarks should make him Majority Leader in a few years.

NEO FOREVER

"LiberalAvenger" - I am a Neocon and I welcome your comments, they remind me (in just a few pithy sentences - that Beserkely education was not wasted) why I left the Democrats and became a neo in the first place. Thanks! I am sending other fence-sitters to your site so that they can join me in the Republican ranks.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even going to be a Democrat party in a few years. Probably the debate will be between the libertarian and the traditional sides of the Republican party, with whatever is left of the Democrats having their own little shriekfest in some misbegotten corner.

Geek, Esq.

L=SM:

Good luck on that remedial reading class.

Reality Based Nuanced

Nazis had prisons, the US has prisons.

Hitler was a man, Bush is a man.

Stalin wiped his ass, Bush wipes his ass.

Pol Pot had camps, the US has camps.

It's clear as day.

Leftism = Slave Morality

"Supporting the troops isn't the same as supporting cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct."

Accussing all servicepeople of behaving the same as Nazis is not support.

But mayb Tom Delay (or EVILBUSH) once did something bad, so let's all give Durbin a pass. Maybe we can propose legistlation to hang all our troops? That would be the ultimate expression of liberal patriotism.

Leftism = Slave Morality

"Good luck on that remedial reading class."

Guess I won the argument.

Geek, Esq.

If "winning the argument" means spewing forth false allegations and shrill, absurd hyperbole, yes you did.

The Kid

Geek, esq –

Equating the EPA with the Gestapo is over the top; it degrades the language and ignores history, but it’s really inconsequential to the war on terror(ism). The context is simply that with the war bad guys, their supporters, and other America-haters (really, haters of the West) have as much interest in the EPA and they do in those jack-booted thugs, the IRS, or the storm-troopers over at HHS. But they are interested in anything having to do with US security, the military, law enforcement, particularly with anything that’s negative. That’s where the senator from Illinois has gone wrong.

Turban, er, Durbin has a leaked report of abuse of one prisoner. Because a criminal investigation is proceeding, the authorities – those in the know - can’t comment on the allegations. Durbin, the publicity hound knows this and is unfairly – because he knows that others have to keep quiet – milking it for all it’s worth. Last night, John Warner John Warner, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, demanded an apology. Here’s what happened:

Mr. Durbin blamed "the right-wing media" for reporting his remarks. Mitch McConnell read his remarks back to him and asked if he had actually said something so outrageous. Harry Reid reminded everyone that Dick Durbin had once been a Boy Scout, and besides, he does, too, love American soldiers. Robert Byrd got the floor and changed the subject to Father's Day. Then Jon Kyl of Arizona resumed the drubbing of Mr. Durbin.
Perhaps Durbin and crew will wise up. Heck, by Tuesday, if he pays for express shipping, he may have one of these.

Clyde

How dare you, Senator Durbin? How dare you compare conditions at Guantamo Bay with the Nazi death camps, the Soviet gulag or Pol Pot's killing fields? How many millions of people have died at Guantanamo Bay? How many total? ZERO. The very comparison shows a colossal ignorance of history. Lavrenti Beria and Reinhard Heydrich would look up at you from whatever circle of Hell they currently occupy, ask, "How many millions of prisoners have you killed?" and when you told them "Zero, but we made some of them VERY uncomfortable," they would laugh at you for the rank amateur that you are.

RandMan

Oh please already. No one on the Left gives a tinker's damn about what is going on at Gitmo, Abu Gharib, or anywhere else for that matter. This is pure political slander brought to us by Democrats who will say anything to tar their opponents.

If Durbin or Geek or any other Leftist were serious, they could state that they don't like the coercive interrogation tactics used to extract intel from captives. To compare our tough tactics on a few hundred terrorists to the mass murder of millions of INNOCENTS under the 20th century's most totalitarian regimes (all Leftist BTW, including the Nazi Socialists) is moral idiocy.

That fact that Durbin and his apoligists likely know better shows them for cheap political propagandists they are.

Leftism = Slave Morality

Geek, you continue to say nothing. Not addressing my points means you lost the argument. At least bow out gracefully.

Clyde

How dare you, Senator Durbin? How dare you compare conditions at Guantamo Bay with the Nazi death camps, the Soviet gulag or Pol Pot's killing fields? How many millions of people have died at Guantanamo Bay? How many total? ZERO. The very comparison shows a colossal ignorance of history. Lavrenti Beria and Reinhard Heydrich would look up at you from whatever circle of Hell they currently occupy, ask, "How many millions of prisoners have you killed?" and when you told them "Zero, but we made some of them VERY uncomfortable," they would laugh at you for the rank amateur that you are.

BumperStickerist

More to the point, why has Senator Durbin not taken to task the members of Chicago's Police force for their Torquemada-like use of torture?

Does Senator Durbin not care that Nazi-like People who Carry Guns and Have the Authority to Arrest You and Take You to Death, errr, Downtown to Detain You were present in his home state?

Does Senator Durbin have less care and concern for his own constituents than he does for enemy combatants who were captured while taking action against US military force?

Does Senator Durbin not think that France will sneer at the Illinois Police Department and Penal System once it learns of the unparalleled atrocities committed by these badged torturers?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

What say you Senator Durbin - why would I be safer in a Gitmo detention cell than a Chicago interrogation room?

ss

"If 'winning the argument' means spewing forth false allegations and shrill, absurd hyperbole, yes you did."

Heh. Looks like you've damned Durbin yourself. Wise of you to come around.

Crank

Geek - Nazi allusions by DeLay, Byrd, Santorum, ad nauseum are bad and overwrought. But what is especially pernicious about Durbin is the use of the Nazi comparison in a time of war in a way that was highly likely to be - and now has been - picked up by enemies who love that comparison themselves. Bin Laden and Zarqawi can't use Tom DeLay comparing the EPA to the Gestapo to win recruits and converts to suicide bomb attacks. But they can damn well use Durbin.

Mr. Dart

All of this yakking about G'itmo over the past few weeks and I have never seen any of the leftist critics of our military suggest what to do with the 5-600 sweethearts detained there. So, allow me to help, if each of the registered commenters on democraticunderground would volunteer to take in and watch just one detainee we could close Club G'itmo. And then my son wouldn't have to look after the scumbags. They won't cause much fuss around your place. All they want is 3 hots and a cot and a well-regulated a/c apparently. Just a hint though.... keep them away from knives or anything they can fashion into a shiv because, as soon as you drift off to sleep, they'll slit your throat, your cildren's throats and I won't tell you how they'll deal with your wife. Sweet dreams! By the way they understand that we're at war and they all firmly believe in Jihad--- even if you don't.

JorgXMcKie

Let's see. The Democratic Republic of North Korea. The Democratic Party. Democratic in both? Check.

There (pace LA and geek) the Democratic Party equals North Korea.

QED.


Seems about right to me

TexasToast

Gee folks.

Durbin used a powerful metaphor to describe interrogation techniques that do not show us in our best light. I’m sure we are all glad to know just how rare those techniques are – given the anger and angst that some have displayed in the above comments. How should he have criticized these obviously un-American techniques in a “politically correct” manner? Would he have been heard?

Hyperbole is almost a law of powerful rhetoric. Not too much, or one loses credibility. Hence – Godwin’s Law. Too little, however, can disappear into the black hole. Tom pointed this out in his post regarding Amnesty International a few days ago. Tom was right then – and, applying that same logic, his point applies now.

Chuck

FYI:

It was 6 million Jews that Hitler killed. 13 million died in the camps. The 7 million non-Jews inlcuded homosexuals, Gypsies and Russians.

Jews were the single largest "group" exterminated in the camps.

Richard G. Combs

I expressed my outrage to Sen. Durbin's office a couple of days ago. But it's time to move to the next level. We need to write letters like this one to our senators calling for the Senate to censure Durbin and repudiate his statements.

Leftism = Slave Morality

Gee folks,

What he should have said is the US is more Evil than the Devil, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Stalin and the Boogerman.

That would have got him heard...and given more attention to the Left's use of seditious libel instead of rational debate.

Don't fall for it. "Torture" is just an abstraction to scream on streetcorners. No leftist here or in the Senate is interested in having a rational debate about the best way to extract information from terrorists.

TexasToast

L=SM

The reports I've read don't seem very abstract. They strike me as disgustingly concrere. I think your argument is quantity - not quality. These people were held for years without even so much as a hearing by any tribunal - military or civilian. Sounds like you are an ends justify the means kind of guy.

Appalled Moderate

This set of comments make me want to quote Lileks (in his brand spankin new screedblog):

"Nazis Nazis Everywhere, and Not a Prof to Think"

Geek, Esq.

What about cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct makes it more aligned with American values than with traditionally fascist values?

Still no takers on that question. *Crickets*

Leftism = Slave Morality

"Sounds like you are an ends justify the means kind of guy."

Everybody is, some people just lie about it.

Leftism = Slave Morality

Geek:

1) Just because something doesn't jive with your slave morality doesn't make it automatically cruel, inhuman, degrading or illegal.

2) You have no evidence that everyone in our military is acting in a cruel, inhuman, degrading or illegal fashion. You have no evidence this is happening at Gimto. You have no evidence that the actions at Abu Garib by a few soliders were authorized by the military or the Ameircan people. And saying otherwise seditious libel.

But keep posting your cliches, abstractions and mindless leftist talking points.

Patrick R. Sullivan

Maybe Durbin is trying out the latest in 'holocaust denial'. All it was, was 6 million chilly Jews.

Forbes

TexasToast: I can heartily agree with your 10:40 post--we're not that far apart, after all! Cheers.

Geek, Esq.: Jerry Seinfeld didn't invent the Soup Nazi. The Soup Nazi (as the vendor is known) exists on West 55th between Broadway and 8th Avenue in Manhattan. Facts can be your friend!

Appalled Moderate

L=SM

Spend a few hours here educating yourself. There's plenty of evidnce of inhumanity and indecency, though it certainly does not rise to Adolfian or Saddamite levels.

Geek, Esq.

For the record, what Durbin said was dumb. Really, really dumb.

But, it's a mere case of hyperbole now being used to generate bogus 'outrage.' The abuse in question certainly doesn't reach the depths of Hitler's depravity, but his basic point--that such behavior is incompatible with our values as a free and democratic society--is spot-on.

RandMan

Geek,

America, a liberal democracy, is putting a relatively small number of jihadists through some temporary discomfort for a day or two in order to extract information, if we can. It would be wonderful if we could hand them a questionaire and they would freely give the information. But it doesn't work that way.

So we tie them up for a while. We turn up the heat or turn it down. We deprive them of some sleep. We try to break their will using these techniques. We make them uncomfortable. It is not torture. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Cruel? Perhaps, but not nearly as cruel as what happened to Danny Pearl.

Inhuman? Maybe, but compared to suicide bombers in Israel?

Degrading? Not compared to the rape rooms employed by Saddam's sons and their henchmen.

Illegal? Not that I know of.

No detainee in Gitmo has died, yet Durbin likens conditions there to the death camps, gulags, and killing fields where tens of millions of INNOCENT people perished by being worked to death, starved to death, frozen, diseased, gassed, shot, raped, etc. He can't supposedly can't see the difference.

The verbal excesses of the Left in these matter make me think of the boy who cried "wolf". You know the moral of the story.

I see the Left acting like the boy in the story. Your side loses crediblity every time it tries these tactics. Sadly, some day there may be a real wolf we all need to be concerned about. You may recognize it, but no one will believe you because the Moores, Durbins, and Deans of the Left have squandered their crediblity over things like Gitmo.

The Left compares America to the perfect ideal and finds it wanting all the time. But when you compare America to the rest of the world, it wins hands down. Too bad your side the aisle can't see that.

But I guess if it gets you some political gain for 2006, then by all means, make all the inane comparisons you want. It's your crediblity, not mine.

SteveMG

Geek:
"If "winning the argument" means spewing forth false allegations and shrill, absurd hyperbole, yes you did."

I'm glad you're now onboard condemning Durban's statements. Took you awhile, but you finally discovered the point that the critics of him were making.

Better late than never. Welcome to the club.

But I'm still not teaching you the secret handshake. I'm not convinced you're fully with us.

SMG

The Liberal Avenger

I didn't leave that asinine comment.

Auguste

Just thought I'd close the tags for you guys so you can continue your fun.

Geek, Esq.

What folks are missing, and I shudder to invoke this grand horror of a cliche, is the slippery slope.

A permissive attitude towards the mistreatment of enemy captives degrades unit cohesion, discipline, respect for the rules of war, etc etc.

The belief that mistreating enemy prisoners is okay starts us down the path that leads to places like Abu Ghraib. They didn't start off with naked pyramids down there.

Auguste

Didn't work, though. Oh well.

Just Some Guy

Wow. That Liberal Avenger calling for laws to shut people up is actually for real! I thought he was just baiting people, but check out his site, he really is a complete tool.

But guess what...the asshole calling for government censorship through regulation failed to comply with EXISTING regulations for websites!!

That's right, "Liberal Avenger" provided false information for his domain at WHOIS, which violates ICAAN rules. (http://www.whois.org/whois.cgi2?d=liberalavenger.com/) The guy who demands regulation of the Internet is currently breaking existing rules for the Internet, which tells you something about what this pipsqueek hypocrite Nazi wanna-be has in mind for you.

Hey, Liberal Avenger, I made sure to give your registrar a heads-up.

TM

I didn't leave that asinine comment.

LiberalAvenger

We need more specifics - regrettably, there is more than one asinine comment here. KIDDING!

Although that said, any thread that brings Texas T and Forbes together has something to commend it.

P.S. I was going to bet "spoof" on the comment where we first meet LiberalAvenger at 10:24 AM, but, in a sad reflection on the state of our times, the occasional comments thread I peruse at the Kos (and my own gutlessness) I let it slide.

And since that is the only comment he left, I guess someone is making the mock of him. That really stinks.

FWIW, the two IP addresses ostensibly from the LA don't match. Ok, I'm peeved now.

The IP address from the faux LA is appearing here for the first time. I'll guess that someone who does not like the LA stopped by here (and has been banned, from that IP anyway).

And the Liberal Avenger speaks out.

Half Canadian

Durbin said that making the room really cold or really hot was like what the Nazis did (or Stalin, or Pol Pot). He also said that allowing inmates to sit in their own urine/feces was like the Nazis/Stalin/Pol Pot. Same with keeping them awake at night.

Which means that basic training (or pledge week) can be considered as cruel as a Nazi death camp/Soviet Gulag/Cambodian Killing Field.

Which is why Durbin is an idiot. Are some of the inmates at Gitmo uncomfortable? Yes, and they should be. But not one has lost so much as a digit from a finger. Not one has died. Has their pride been damaged? Absolutely, and I'm not about to fret over that. Nor am I going to fret over their lost sleep, sweat or pleasant evenings.

Brad DeLong

My condolences. You deserve a better bunch of houseguests.

Geek, Esq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050617/ap_on_go_co/guantanamo_durbin

"On Friday, Durbin tried to clarify the issue. "My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this Administration, which add to the risk our soldiers face," he said in a statement released Friday afternoon. "I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: Our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support.

. . .

Durbin had said Thursday that he had never brought U.S. soldiers into the comparison in the first place, and that he was criticizing the approved interrogation methods described in an FBI memo obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request."

Geek, Esq.

Also, please check out this email from the FBI:

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.3977.pdf

The Liberal Avenger

Thank you, Tom.

Iron Teakettle

I am afraid that Mr. Maguire makes a point without a difference. I do not believe that the interrogators who abused prisoners at Gitmo were soldiers. I believe they were "paramilitary" -- some kind of CIA, DIA or other kind of spooks or rear-echelon near 4-Fs like Graner and Stewart. Likewise, Burge was no U.S. soldier but a sadist with a badge. I also caution taking anything Rob Warden says with a very large grain of salt. He is so anti-death penalty that he would prefer a child-killer to go free rather than be sentenced to death.

stgDad

You have to go back a few years for this one

"Dick Durbin before he dicks you"

Jor

Change Story, Blah blah blah, Bush Hitler, blah blah blah. Jon Stewart had a great peice on Hitler comparisons last night. Of course no republican has ever called anyone a nazi or hitler before. Never. Ever. None of the ones causing a ruckus now either.

moneyrunner

On Friday, Durbin tried to clarify the issue. "My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this Administration, which add to the risk our soldiers face," he said in a statement released Friday afternoon. "I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: Our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support.

Dick Durbin is an ass, as are those who support him. “Critical of the Policies of the Administration?” Oh? It was the Policies of the Administration that chained the prisoners and changed the A/C in their cells? Something like “immaculate conception?” Sure, that’s what Dickie had in mind. A two legged Amin Policy snuck into Gitmo and tried to get the terrorist to talk. No, of course not Dickie, you could not possibly be accusing American servicemen of being Nazi death camp guards. We really, really, knew you were talking about Bush and Rumsfeld sneaking in to that camp and turning up the A/C. We believe you because we are as stupid as the people who voted for you and the simps who defend you.

Your true feelings? You made it abundantly clear what your true feelings are and now that the heat has become a little too much and your Washington buddies are running for the tall grass, you give us that “regret if what I said” bullshit.

Yes, our soldiers around the world deserve our respect. But not from cretins like you. You do not give respect. You do not confer respect. You confer revulsion. Like a loathsome reptile, people will shrink form your presence.

And Geek, take it personally.

ed

Hmmm.

"What folks are missing, and I shudder to invoke this grand horror of a cliche, is the slippery slope."

Now that's interesting. In every single other case, gun control, abortion, drug legalisation, liberals decry the "slippery slope" argument.

Curious that.

Nahanni

In 20 years when people look back and try to determine exactly when the Democratic party died this incident will be cited as the death rattle. They are beginning to resemble the lunatic on the streetcorner ranting and raving about aliens from outer space or radio beams reading their thoughts.

The people discussing this event in the future will not be made up of a panel of journalists from NYT/CBS/NBC/MSNBC/ABC/CNN, either. They will not exist. For this incident is also the death rattle of the MSM for it will become obvious to all except for the LLL/MMM's they are biased and are little more then the propaganda wing of the DNC. They seem to have forgotten their own history. Too bad for them.

The Democratic party is dead.

The MSM is dead.

Jim Rockford

It's even worse. WaPo reporter Dana Milbanks had an account of the street theater lunacy of the Dems "impeaching" GWB for Iraq, in some fantasy hearing in a basement. Anti-semite Jim Moran applauded some CIA analyst anti-semite (Tenet supposedly called him that); as both patted themselves on the back blaming the "jewwwwwws" for Iraq; and Dem HQ had it on CSPAN and passed out flyers yep blaming the "jewwwwwws!" for 9/11 as some sort of tinfoil hat insider trading conspiracy.

DEM HQ!

Stick a fork in it, Dems are done (btw go to the WaPo site and look around for it, the account is telling in it's utter moonbattery).

Back somewhat OT: In 1977, since upheld time and again, the European Court of Human Rights held that the UK gov't was not committing "torture" when it hooded, subjected to "stress" positions, temperature extremes, "white noise" and deprivation of sleep, food and drink ("Ireland versus United Kingdom"). This is far less than what we do. Some of the people held at Gitmo, that Durbin and Teddy weep over, include Mohammed al-Qhattani, go-between for Khalid Sheik Mohammed the 9/11 architect, and Mohammed Atta lead hijacker. Atta was waiting for al-Qhattani when the latter was turned back by Immigration Control for a faulty visa. He may have been an extra hijacker. If you asked most Americans they'd happily cut him apart with dull butter knives if he had any info. We hate this guy and don't care about him. Khalid Sheik Mohammed either (who Teddy cries about Waterboarding). Most Americans would happily shoot these guys. Teddy and Durbin want to let them go.

And Dems wonder why the party of cryin Babs Boxer isn't trusted with the nation's security?

ed

Hmmmm.

"Also, please check out this email from the FBI:"

Wow! You're right! No other human being on earth could write an email like that. Must be true.

Is this a joke or something? There's nothing in that email that remotely identifies it as "from the FBI". And quite frankly I'm supposed to uncritically accept such an email ..... why?

nonsense.

Geek, Esq.

Ed: That email was produced from a FOIA request.

Moneyrunner: Believe it or not, insults from far-right wingnuts really don't hurt my feelings. If I'm not pissing off elements of the extra-chromosome right, I feel unfulfilled.

SteveMG

"Believe it or not, insults from far-right wingnuts really don't hurt my feelings. If I'm not pissing off elements of the extra-chromosome right, I feel unfulfilled."

It's that type of open-minded tolerance and willingness to accept intellectual challenges that has placed the progressive wing of the Democratic Party in its terrific position today as an influential political movement.

Please continue.

SMG

Geek, Esq.

SMG:
Those on the far right who break out the "libruls hate America" libel aren't entitled to any tolerance from said "libruls." Nor do they present any "intellectual challenge" more rigorous than a monkey throwing its own feces.

ed

Hmmmm.

"Ed: That email was produced from a FOIA request."

And what exactly is it supposed to prove? What is the entire point of introducing that email?

Geek, Esq.

That the FBI believed the DoD was torturing people there.

And that the DoD was aware of the illegality of what they were doing--as evidence by their impersonation of FBI agents to avoid prosecution.

Geek, Esq.

Speaking of a lack of knowledge of history, let's check out the mass stupidity provided by a meeting of airhead Chris Wallace and Hugh Hewitt:

Wallace (on Holocaust victims): "I mean, you know, Auschwitz? Bergen Belsen? The Soviet gulag? I think they would have been very happy to be allowed to defecate on themselves."

http://www3.sympatico.ca/mighty1/essays/erspamer2.htm

" Another of the most common types of torture described by all of these writers is that of excremental assault. According to Harold Kaplan, the purpose of excremental assault was to produce a sense of self-disgust in the victims and thereby diminish their will to survive.18 Lucie Begov vividly describes the "Scheißkommando" as an example of this excremental assault. While imprisoned in Auschwitz, she was forced to empty large wagons filled with human excrement from latrines all over camp. The purpose of this exercise was to humiliate and degrade her and weaken her resistance to the deathly forces around her.
. . .

Ruth Klüger also remembers forms of excremental assault in the Czech concentration camp of Theresienstadt, where there were not enough sanitary facilities for all the inmates:

"There was always a line in front of the bathroom. It was worthwhile to get used to using the bathroom at times when there was likely to be less traffic. There were only two bathrooms on every floor, if I remember correctly. Inside the building were hundreds of children among whom were many suffering from diarrhea, the eternal plague of the camp.""

But, heaven forbid this kind of stuff be compared to stuff the Nazis did.

creepy dude

Excatly Geek: the Hugh Hewitt mindset, as reflected by Wallace and all the pathetic comments in this thread, is itself a threat to America.

creepy dude

"I think they would have been very happy to be allowed to defecate on themselves."

Actually if the "they" he's referring to is Hewitt, Powerline, the cretins in this thread, et al., then he's right-'cause they do so everyday and really do seem to like it.

SteveMG

Geek/Creepy Dude:
You gentlemen are just hopeless. Just beyond redemption.

May I leave this discussion with just one question, please?

Is there any analogy or comparison or metaphor or synecdoche that is employed against Bush that you would find over the top? Anything? Any horrific event or figure?

The Romans once captured a group of slaves who were rebelling against them (the movie Spartacus was based on this) and crucified thousands of them. They were lined up along the road. And while they were on the crosses slowly dying in incredible pain, the Roman soldiers took their daughters and wives and raped and sodomized them in front of the crucified slaves. Then the men were forced to watch as they slowly killed them.

Would you find a comparison of this to the US military beyond acceptable standards? Or would it, too, be okay?

Is there, in other words, a line ANYWHERE that you would draw?

I have a hunch, but I'll hold my cards close to my chest.

SMG

ed

Hmmm.

"That the FBI believed the DoD was torturing people there.

And that the DoD was aware of the illegality of what they were doing--as evidence by their impersonation of FBI agents to avoid prosecution."

On the basis of what? What evidence? What proof? What formal allegation? What is the source of this allegation? Is this something witnessed by the FBI agent? Is it something the agent was told about? If not witnessed, then told by whom?

There's nothing in that email that remotely approaches proof.

Here's another possibility. The intelligence and law enforcement agencies have been shown conclusively to be heavily politicized. The leaks from the CIA and other intelligence agencies show that partisans within those organizations will stop at literally nothing to smear this administration.

From the basis of this email, prove to me that it's not a put up job. Can you?

I'm completely unimpressed by all this. That memo is worthless and isn't worth printing out and wiping my ass with it.

ed

Hmmm.

This is the best you've got? It's worthless all of it.

Frankly I thought GannonGate was an abberation. Now I see it's symptomatic.

SteveMG

Ed:
"Frankly I thought GannonGate was an abberation. Now I see it's symptomatic."

You may be on to something.

Seymour Hersh, about 2 years ago when Abu Ghraib was on the front pages, stated that there would all kinds of pictures of prisoner (and civilian) abuse because of the digital cameras that the soldiers were carrying around. And with PCs and the internet, Hersh stated, the Pentagon and the W.H. would be overwhelmed with all kinds of ugly photos of the mistreatment of prisoners.

He's still making the wild accusations. Like the other leftists here.

And we're still waiting.

Who says the left hasn't any new ideas? They've got lots of them; but they're all crazy ones.

SMG

Geek, Esq.

Shorter ed: I refuse to believe anything that inconveniences my argument or makes me think.

Because internal FBI communications are obviously a leftist plot.

creepy dude

Shorter ed channeling Wallace: "I think they would have been very happy to be allowed to wipe their ass with that worthless FBI memo rather than defecate on themselves."

ed

Hmmmm.

"because of the digital cameras that the soldiers were carrying around."

The funny thing is that these soldiers are still carrying digital cameras, and soon will be issued helmet mounted digital video recorders, and yet there's a dearth of positive Iraq stories. What? Nobody using the cameras?

"Because internal FBI communications are obviously a leftist plot."

With all the leaks from Democrats embedded in the government, it's a reasonable allegation. Why shouldn't I think that a partisan FBI agent wrote this email and then notified the ACLU to write a FOIA about it? Is this an official email? Has it gone through any review process? Is there any evidence to back up the allegation? Is there anything at all, AT ALL, to show that it isn't in fact just bullshit?

Here's your prime opportunity to win everyone over. All you have to do, and it's a very very low hurdle, is actually provide PROOF and not just an unsupported allegation.

ed

Hmmmm.

"Why shouldn't I think that a partisan FBI agent wrote this email and then notified the ACLU to write a FOIA about it?"

Actually, now that I think about it, why shouldn't I think the same thing about Durbin's revelation? Why couldn't that email have been cooked up with an sympathetic FBI agent with an agenda? Who then contacted Senator Durbin to give him ammunition on the Senate floor?

I've read the allegations. I've read the opinion pieces on the allegations. What I have NOT seen is anything that actually supports those allegations. It's one thing to cry "torture" but you generally have to provide some evidence of it.

Proof. Provide some proof. Clinton got caught with a stained dress and that wasn't enough for you liberals. Now you're trying to hang Bush on an unsupported email?

Frankly I think you're all rather absurd.

Geek, Esq.

Isn't there some sort of equivalent of Godwin's Law that forbids Freepers from discussing Bill Clinton's penis?

M. Simon

But Durbin is called Dick. Says so on his official Senate www site.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Amazon

  • Lee Child, Kindle short story
  • Lee Child
  • Gary Taubes

Traffic

Wilson/Plame