Don't Know Much About History...

David Gelertner, writing in the LA Times, slaps Sen. Dick Durbin for his comments comparing prisoner abuse at Guantanamo with Pol Pot, gulags and Nazis.

My suggestion - the next time the Senator from Illinois is speaking on the subject of prisoner abuse and finds himself grasping for an historical parallel, perhaps he could invoke the proud history of the great city of Chicago:

Over the last two decades, Chicago, Illinois has earned the reputation of having one of the highest rates of police coerced false confessions in the United States. Many documented cases involved the use of unusually brutal tactics, including electric shock, beatings and using a plastic bag to restrict oxygen. The problem got so out of hand that the Chicago Police Department was forced to conduct an internal investigation to weed out corrupt officers who were known to conduct cruel interrogations.

At the center of abuse allegations was former Commander Jon Burge, who allegedly tortured one hundred eight men between 1973 and 1991, according to a Chicago NBC5.com article. Burge denies the claims. The accusations began in February 1982 after the murder of two police officers during a routine traffic stop. Less than a week after the slayings, Andrew Wilson was brought into the police station for questioning. During that time, he claimed that several police officers, including Burge, beat him, tried to suffocate him with a plastic bag, electrically shocked him and forced him against a hot radiator, Rob Warden said in a 2003 article for the Center on Wrongful Convictions...

I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that in Durbin's world there are stopping points between "Nice Guys" and "Nazis" - we are always on the lookout for nuance.

Michelle Malkin is noting MSM reaction; regrettably, that is not a time-consuming task.

MORE:  Dave Nalle at Blogcritics does a good job of deploring both prisoner abuse and Sen. Durbin's rhetorical excess.

And some folks seem to think that Sen. Durbin is an American hero for finally revealing the previously untold story of Gitmo.  Please.  The NY Times magazine had a cover story on torture and the American Way just last week.

Comments

[Crank]

I hate Illinois Nazi-equaters.

[Al]

Hey! Clicking through to Malkin, I see that there is one MSM paper that realized that if Trent Lott had to resign his leadership post for his stupid comment, then Dick Durbin SURELY has to similarly resign for his incredibly offensive slander.

Kudos to the Boston Herald!

[Ugh]

I believe Durbin's was asking: given the information in the report he read into the record, would you think Nazis before you thought Americans? I would, anyone else?

[Half Canadian]

Ugh,
Not I. I would have thought basic training or pledge week.

[www.liberalavenger.com]

It is sick how you neocon fascists try to dodge the responsibility of Abu Ghraib and the US neoimperialistic and corporate abuse of democracy and social justice. how much does this blogger get paid by PNAC and the GOP to post this? where does his money come from? You just a front for a crypto-fascist neoconservative cabal and an an oil war masquerading as an endless crusade against "terrorism."

We need to stop the hate and regulate these "warbloggers" now. Write to your congressperson or senator today.

[UPDATE: Eventually, the real Liberal Avenger declares this comment to be a malicious spoof. TM]

[Ron]

Not me, Ugh, me and my friends were meaner than that to each other for fun. The Nazis exterminated 9 million Jews. Think of the population of NYC.

And that doesn't count the World War they started.

[Dan Darling]

LA:

I've got to say, with rhetoric like that and events like this, I gotta say that there's a part of me that has to wonder whether folks like you aren't yourself the result of some marvelous GOP/PNAC conspiracy to make the opposition appear utterly beyond the pale ...

[Bedrock Guy]

Liberal Avenger: Hi. Do you really believe the garbage you write? I checked your website. A Berkeley educated liberal from MA. Says it all, right there.

Your side is correct that abuses have occured at GITMO and other locations. But, why do you and your extremist allies have to turn this into enemy propaganda. Have you no sense of honor? Of Patriotism? Spare me the left wing garbage that patriotism requires one to expose GITMO. That only gets you to the point where you ensure the proper authorities know about the problem. That does not give you the right to undermine the war effort and call our soldiers Nazis, or equate their work to the Reich, or the Soviet Union or Pol Pot. And you guys wonder why we hold you in such contempt. r/ Bedrockguy

[Outlaw_Wizard]

liberalavenger,

If this sickens you, then hurry up and die.

Abu Ghraib came to light well after the investigations into wrongdoing were reported up the chain of command. Note that there have alredy been trials by courts martial and convictions arising from those abuses.

Your moral scales are so out of calibration it would be amusing, were it not so serious.

On our very worst day the United States does not begin to approach the depravity of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, nor Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge. Not. Even. Close.

Those who would suggest such a comparison is valid should be horse whipped, tarred, feathered, and run out of this nation on a rail.

Sincerely
Da_Wiz

[TexasToast]

Darn

I thought Beto would hold the record for the most over th top comment I've seen on Tom's blog for longer than an hour. Thanks LA!

[Razorgirl]

If Durbin wants to know about torture, he should come to my house and experience nightly sleep deprivation due to the loud maruichi music provided by the illegal alien population of northwest Arkansas. Hey, ACLU-Can I sue if I go to sleep while driving and have an accident?

[slatanic]

Who cares about Gitmo, really? How many of you are upset about the abuse there. Can't be that bad, those released return to the battle. "So nice, you go back twice!" - Chris Rock, Born Suspect. I don't think that there is enough torture going on; I think there should be nothing but Billy Grahams Revival readings, pork chops and HEAT for those sub-humans from the other side of the planet.
Liberal Avenger, your use of big words like "neoimperialistic" (i'm not sure that is even a word) and your support for "social justice" is translated into Arabic as "total pussy; some guy who gets walked on; probably single and the only girl he had left because she didn't want to wear the pants in a relationship with a spineless jellyfish." Your a tool, your days are numbered, and I like guns, especially guns being used against the nations enemies. We need to bring the pain to the muslim world, believe me, they have no less intentions for us.

[vero]

liberalavenger,

What no poem, You sir are a fraud if your "graduated" from Berkeley and you don't start every post with ""hey hey ho ho" The Real Berkeley types read poems the day after the attacks on 9/11 and blamed us.

you are a fraud

[Geek, Esq.]

Ah, the Limbaughesque "it was nothing more than a hazing" refrain returns.

I guess the consensus on the right is that cruel and degrading punishment, but which falls just short of torture, is more American than Nazi or Stalinist.

I guess libruls like Durbin just have higher standards.

[Geek, Esq.]

I also imagine that the rightwing will start a campaign to condemn Jerry Seinfeld for daring to create a character called "The Soup Nazi."

[TM]

how much does this blogger get paid by PNAC and the GOP to post this?

Not enough - not anything, actually - but I will listen to offers!

[Geek, Esq.]

Also, would Glenn Reynolds introduce legislation censuring the person who said this?

"The EPA, the Gestapo of government, pure and simply has been one of the major claw-hooks that the government maintains on the backs of our constituents."

I guess the comparison of cruel, degrading, and inhuman treatment to the Nazis is just not as offensive as comparing Environmental regulators to Nazis in conservative circles.

[TexasToast]

On Sunday morning, [May 1, 2005] Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson told TV viewers nation-wide that the threat posed by liberal judges is "probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings." When an incredulous George Stephanopoulos asked if Robertson really believed that these judges posed "the most serious threat America has faced in nearly 400 years of history, more serious than al Qaeda, more serious than Nazi Germany and Japan, more serious than the Civil War?," he responded, "George, I really believe that."

Sorry Geek, its the judges. They are much scarier than Gitmo.

[James]

We need to stop the hate and regulate these "warbloggers" now. Write to your congressperson or senator today.

So much for freedom of speech. Anytime someone says something you don't like accuse them of corruption and claim that they should be stopped. Liberals only like freedom of "their" speech.

[doug]

Also, would Glenn Reynolds introduce legislation censuring the person who said this?

"The EPA, the Gestapo of government, pure and simply has been one of the major claw-hooks that the government maintains on the backs of our constituents."

I believe that Tom Delay was comparing (correctly or not) the enforcement power of the EPA to the Gestapo's. He was not insinuating that the EPA is involved in some "cruel, degrading, and inhuman treatment", which is exactly what Durbin was doing.

[Geek, Esq.]

Sorry, TT, but the EPA folks are a much bigger threat to the United States.

After all, the Republican leadership in Congress says they're NAZIS!!!

Doug:

Does the EPA have the authority to shoot people and drag them off to death camps?

[BumperStickerist]

death camps?

[Leftism = Slave Morality]

Geek needs to take a logic class instead of running the "Don't Look Here, Look at the Evil Hyopocrite" play leftists so love to use.

The fact Tom Delay said one thing does not absolve Durbin of what he said.

Tom Delay may beat his dog, but Durbin is still a seditious asshole.

[TM]

Since we have segued to absurd comparisons, let's play "Who Said" with this:

Mr. Cheney... remains in charge of energy policy. And that scares me more than terrorism.

...Osama bin Laden can't destroy Western civilization. Carbon dioxide can.

Well, no Nazi comparison there, anyway.

Anyway, one might argue that comparing the EPA to Nazis (which was a wrong thing to do) only gives aid and comfort to polluters; when a Senator compares America's troops to Nazis, it is a propaganda victory for folks trying to kill us.

Of course, in light of the opening quote, I may have the wrong priorities.

[Geek, Esq.]

Durbin said that cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct is more consistent with Nazi values than American values.

And the conservatives think he's wrong?

[Geek, Esq.]

Oh, TM, please. He's not comparing the troops to Nazis.

He's comparing reprehensible conduct to Nazi-like conduct.

Nor is he comparing the reprehensible conduct to the very worst things the Nazis did.

Example: Having thugs beat up political opponents would be exactly like what the Nazis did. Comparing such behavior to the Nazis would not be the same as comparing the act of beating up political opponents to the Holocaust.

[capt joe]

Jeez, I thought LA was joking until read further. I can't believe how far over the top you lefties have gotten.

crematoriums <--> shit in the pants

Yep, I see it, if I drink enough, yep, maybe, ...

Texastoast, so Robertson is stupid, d'uh! What else is new. You won't get any argument here. I never read that nutcase, why do you?

Talking apples with apples, Delay got his comeupance for a stupid remark, why are you guys refusing to request Durbin's for a remarkably stupid false remark.

I guess you support the troops when they shoot their officers, right?

[Leftism = Slave Morality]

Durbin accused all American service men and women of cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct WITHOUT EVIDENCE. He compared them to Nazis. What he said is seditious and libelous.

Mr. Geek: Your parlor tricks won't covert us to the Slave Morality and convince us 2+2=5. We can see right through it.

[Geek, Esq.]

Supporting the troops isn't the same as supporting cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct.

Tom DeLay's comeuppance was becoming the most powerful member of Congress. By that logic, Durbin's remarks should make him Majority Leader in a few years.

[NEO FOREVER]

"LiberalAvenger" - I am a Neocon and I welcome your comments, they remind me (in just a few pithy sentences - that Beserkely education was not wasted) why I left the Democrats and became a neo in the first place. Thanks! I am sending other fence-sitters to your site so that they can join me in the Republican ranks.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even going to be a Democrat party in a few years. Probably the debate will be between the libertarian and the traditional sides of the Republican party, with whatever is left of the Democrats having their own little shriekfest in some misbegotten corner.

[Geek, Esq.]

L=SM:

Good luck on that remedial reading class.

[Reality Based Nuanced]

Nazis had prisons, the US has prisons.

Hitler was a man, Bush is a man.

Stalin wiped his ass, Bush wipes his ass.

Pol Pot had camps, the US has camps.

It's clear as day.

[Leftism = Slave Morality]

"Supporting the troops isn't the same as supporting cruel, inhuman, degrading, and illegal conduct."

Accussing all servicepeople of behaving the same as Nazis is not support.

But mayb Tom Delay (or EVILBUSH) once did something bad, so let's all give Durbin a pass. Maybe we can propose legistlation to hang all our troops? That would be the ultimate expression of liberal patriotism.

[Leftism = Slave Morality]

"Good luck on that remedial reading class."

Guess I won the argument.

[Geek, Esq.]

If "winning the argument" means spewing forth false allegations and shrill, absurd hyperbole, yes you did.

[The Kid]

Geek, esq –

Equating the EPA with the Gestapo is over the top; it degrades the language and ignores history, but it’s really inconsequential to the war on terror(ism). The context is simply that with the war bad guys, their supporters, and other America-haters (really, haters of the West) have as much interest in the EPA and they do in those jack-booted thugs, the IRS, or the storm-troopers over at HHS. But they are interested in anything having to do with US security, the military, law enforcement, particularly with anything that’s negative. That’s where the senator from Illinois has gone wrong.

Turban, er, Durbin has a leaked report of abuse of one prisoner. Because a criminal investigation is proceeding, the authorities – those in the know - can’t comment on the allegations. Durbin, the publicity hound knows this and is unfairly – because he knows that others have to keep quiet – milking it for all it’s worth. Last night, John Warner John Warner, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, demanded an apology. Here’s what happened:

Mr. Durbin blamed "the right-wing media" for reporting his remarks. Mitch McConnell read his remarks back to him and asked if he had actually said something so outrageous. Harry Reid reminded everyone that Dick Durbin had once been a Boy Scout, and besides, he does, too, love American soldiers. Robert Byrd got the floor and changed the subject to Father's Day. Then Jon Kyl of Arizona resumed the drubbing of Mr. Durbin.

Perhaps Durbin and crew will wise up. Heck, by Tuesday, if he pays for express shipping, he may have one of these.

[Clyde]

How dare you, Senator Durbin? How dare you compare conditions at Guantamo Bay with the Nazi death camps, the Soviet gulag or Pol Pot's killing fields? How many millions of people have died at Guantanamo Bay? How many total? ZERO. The very comparison shows a colossal ignorance of history. Lavrenti Beria and Reinhard Heydrich would look up at you from whatever circle of Hell they currently occupy, ask, "How many millions of prisoners have you killed?" and when you told them "Zero, but we made some of them VERY uncomfortable," they would laugh at you for the rank amateur that you are.

[RandMan]

Oh please already. No one on the Left gives a tinker's damn about what is going on at Gitmo, Abu Gharib, or anywhere else for that matter. This is pure political slander brought to us by Democrats who will say anything to tar their opponents.

If Durbin or Geek or any other Leftist were serious, they could state that they don't like the coercive interrogation tactics used to extract intel from captives. To compare our tough tactics on a few hundred terrorists to the mass murder of millions of INNOCENTS under the 20th century's most totalitarian regimes (all Leftist BTW, including the Nazi Socialists) is moral idiocy.

That fact that Durbin and his apoligists likely know better shows them for cheap political propagandists they are.

[Leftism = Slave Morality]

Geek, you continue to say nothing. Not addressing my points means you lost the argument. At least bow out gracefully.

[Clyde]

How dare you, Senator Durbin? How dare you compare conditions at Guantamo Bay with the Nazi death camps, the Soviet gulag or Pol Pot's killing fields? How many millions of people have died at Guantanamo Bay? How many total? ZERO. The very comparison shows a colossal ignorance of history. Lavrenti Beria and Reinhard Heydrich would look up at you from whatever circle of Hell they currently occupy, ask, "How many millions of prisoners have you killed?" and when you told them "Zero, but we made some of them VERY uncomfortable," they would laugh at you for the rank amateur that you are.

[BumperStickerist]

More to the point, why has Senator Durbin not taken to task the members of Chicago's Police force for their Torquemada-like use of torture?

Does Senator Durbin not care that Nazi-like People who Carry Guns and Have the Authority to Arrest You and Take You to Death, errr, Downtown to Detain You were present in his home state?

Does Senator Durbin have less care and concern for his own constituents than he does for enemy combatants who were captured while taking action against US military force?

Does Senator Durbin not think that France will sneer at the Illinois Police Department and Penal System once it learns of the unparalleled atrocities committed by these badged torturers?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

What say you Senator Durbin - why would I be safer in a Gitmo detention cell than a Chicago interrogation room?

[ss]

"If 'winning the argument' means spewing forth false allegations and shrill, absurd hyperbole, yes you did."

Heh. Looks like you've damned Durbin yourself. Wise of you to come around.

[Crank]

Geek - Nazi allusions by DeLay, Byrd, Santorum, ad nauseum are bad and overwrought. But what is especially pernicious about Durbin is the use of the Nazi comparison in a time of war in a way that was highly likely to be - and now has been - picked up by enemies who love that comparison themselves. Bin Laden and Zarqawi can't use Tom DeLay comparing the EPA to the Gestapo to win recruits and converts to suicide bomb attacks. But they can damn well use Durbin.

[Mr. Dart]

All of this yakking about G'itmo over the past few weeks and I have never seen any of the leftist critics of our military suggest what to do with the 5-600 sweethearts detained there. So, allow me to help, if each of the registered commenters on democraticunderground would volunteer to take in and watch just one detainee we could close Club G'itmo. And then my son wouldn't have to look after the scumbags. They won't cause much fuss around your place. All they want is 3 hots and a cot and a well-regulated a/c apparently. Just a hint though.... keep them away from knives or anything they can fashion into a shiv because, as soon as you drift off to sleep, they'll slit your throat, your cildren's throats and I won't tell you how they'll deal with your wife. Sweet dreams! By the way they understand that we're at war and they all firmly believe in Jihad--- even if you don't.

[JorgXMcKie]

Let's see. The Democratic Republic of North Korea. The Democratic Party. Democratic in both? Check.

There (pace LA and geek) the Democratic Party equals North Korea.

QED.

Seems about right to me

[TexasToast]

Gee folks.

Durbin used a powerful metaphor to describe interrogation techniques that do not show us in our best light. I’m sure we are all glad to know just how rare those techniques are – given the anger and angst that some have displayed in the above comments. How should he have criticized these obviously un-American techniques in a “politically correct” manner? Would he have been heard?

Hyperbole is almost a law of powerful rhetoric. Not too much, or one loses credibility. Hence – Godwin’s Law. Too little, however, can disappear into the black hole. Tom pointed this out in his post regarding Amnesty International a few days ago. Tom was right then – and, applying that same logic, his point applies now.

[Chuck]

FYI:

It was 6 million Jews that Hitler killed. 13 million died in the camps. The 7 million non-Jews inlcuded homosexuals, Gypsies and Russians.

Jews were the single largest "group" exterminated in the camps.

[Richard G. Combs]

I expressed my outrage to Sen. Durbin's office a couple of days ago. But it's time to move to the next level. We need to write letters like this one to our senators calling for the Senate to censure Durbin and repudiate his statements.

[Leftism = Slave Morality]

Gee folks,

What he should have said is the US is more Evil than the Devil, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Stalin and the Boogerman.

That would have got him heard...and given more attention to the Left's use of seditious libel instead of rational debate.

Don't fall for it. "Torture" is just an abstraction to scream on streetcorners. No leftist here or in the Senate is interested in having a rational debate about the best way to extract information from terrorists.

[TexasToast]

L=SM

The reports I've read don't seem very abstract. They strike me as disgustingly concrere. I think your argument is quantity - not quality. These people were held for years without even so much as a hearing by any tribunal - military or civilian. Sounds like you are an ends justify the means kind of guy.