If Al Jazeera Is With You...

Dick Durbin gains international stature.

Hugh Hewitt has more.

Comments

[Geek, Esq.]

So, I imagine that Hugh Hewitt's reaction would be equally dispassionate if that had been the description of US POW's held by Saddam.

Yep, if Private Jessica Lynch had been bound naked in a fetal position for such a long time that she soiled herself, was shaking from extreme cold and in a semi-conscious state, people like Hugh would be saying "We were wrong about Saddam. He treats prisoners according to American principles and values."

[creepy dude]

Hugh Hewitt's mindset is itself a threat to America.

[Slartibartfast]

Scary as this is, I agree with CD and Geek, above. This ain't Durbin calling the military Nazis. This is Hewitt, Boortz and (I expect) most of the right-wing professional punditry attempting to blow smoke all over actual abuse.

As opposed to just making up the actual abuse, which no one's making a case for in any event. Are these guys calling the FBI agent who wrote these reports a Nazi, too?

[Geek, Esq.]

The only ones extrapolating the abuse issue to all of our troops are people like Hugh Hewitt.

[Slartibartfast]

Oh, and if it were only neglect, pointing that out, too, would be good and proper, because we have a moral (and perhaps legal) obligation to, you know, treat other human beings better than some people treat dogs. When people treat dogs this badly, it makes the nightly news (or does here in sunny Florida, in any event). Does anyone think that it's a good idea to suppress this kind of bringing-to-attention?

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry, "these guys" was intended to refer back to the professional punditry who are all unhinged because of Durbin's comments. This should not, I should stress, be taken as my entry into the Dick Durbin fan club, but that's neither here nor there.

[Al]

Oh yeah, because turning up the air conditioning too high is JUST like the mass murder of 6,000,000 (Nazis), 20,000,000 (Stalin), 2,000,000 (Pol Pot).

What planet are these moonbats on?

[Slartibartfast]

Oh yeah, because turning up the air conditioning too high is JUST like the mass murder of 6,000,000 (Nazis), 20,000,000 (Stalin), 2,000,000 (Pol Pot).

Who said that, again? What Durbin actually said is that according to those reports he quoted, this is not the sort of treatment we'd expect from our country (which I hold as being an exemplar of democracy), but rather more like what we'd expect from the kind or regime we say we're dead set against.

And I have to agree with him. I don't think we're Pol Pot or Hitler or Stalin, but I do think we've got to reconsider how much this kind of thing entitles us to occupy the same part of the topo map as the moral high ground.

[gt]

As the mess in Iraq gets worse and AMericans support for the war and Bush continues to drop the Right is likely to do two things. One is to blame everyone but the ones actually creating and implementig policy. The other is to deny we are losing and simply claim victory no matter what happens.

I expect a combination of both and in growing numbers in the coming months.

[Paul Zrimsek]

Is the working assumption here that the only alternative to shrugging off the reports of abuse is likening our own country to the Nazis?

Blame this administration for the Patriot Act if you must, but Godwin's Law was passed long before it took office.

[Slartibartfast]

...and of course it's much more important to focus on an apparent Godwin violation than actual, documented prisoner abuse. Well, I know which of those things is going to bring more shame on me.

[Paul Zrimsek]

I'll take that as a "yes", then. But who said anything about what's more important?

[TM]

The 6,00,00 figure for the Nazis is waaay low - that is the normal estimate for Jews only. Plenty of Poles, Gypsies, and other ethnic tragets died, not to mention civilians caught up in the general meelee.

I think 10,000,000 for the Nazi death camps is a common estimate.

Anyway, I am with Paul - why didn't Durbin say that our behavior reminded him of the French in Algeria, or the Brits in Northern Ireland, just to pick a few examples of bad behavior off the top of my head.

I exhort the left to continue down this line.

[Al]

Well, slartibartfast, if I didn't know that you were a regular poster here, I would think that your comments on this thread were really posted by Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden or Kim Jong Il.

(In saying that, I'm not, of course, comparing you in any way to Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden or Kim Jong Il. Right?)

[Geek, Esq.]

Because 99% of the US has no idea about the history of the French in Algeria?

Again, if this had been Americans subjected to that kind of treatment, and it were leftwingers trying to downplay the significance or severity of the treatment, I can only imagine how ol' Hugh would label them. Probably with a Jane Fonda metaphor.

[TM]

Or, closer to home, I have a constructive suggestion for Sen. Durbin of Illinois - the next time he feels like flapping his gums, he can tell folks that Gitmo sounds almost as bad as Chicago:

Over the last two decades, Chicago, Illinois has earned the reputation of having one of the highest rates of police coerced false confessions in the United States. Many documented cases involved the use of unusually brutal tactics, including electric shock, beatings and using a plastic bag to restrict oxygen. The problem got so out of hand that the Chicago Police Department was forced to conduct an internal investigation to weed out corrupt officers who were known to conduct cruel interrogations.

At the center of abuse allegations was former Commander Jon Burge, who allegedly tortured one hundred eight men between 1973 and 1991, according to a Chicago NBC5.com article. Burge denies the claims. The accusations began in February 1982 after the murder of two police officers during a routine traffic stop. Less than a week after the slayings, Andrew Wilson was brought into the police station for questioning. During that time, he claimed that several police officers, including Burge, beat him, tried to suffocate him with a plastic bag, electrically shocked him and forced him against a hot radiator, Rob Warden said in a 2003 article for the Center on Wrongful Convictions...

[Slartibartfast]

I would think that your comments on this thread were really posted by Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden or Kim Jong Il.

Would you like to go in the shredder feet first or feet last?

I'll take that as a "yes", then. But who said anything about what's more important?

I'd take that as a maybe, but that's just me. Durbin's not all that smart, but if you actually read what he said, he didn't liken our soldiers to Nazis. Or maybe he did, and I missed it. A quote would be nice. Maybe Durbin's dead wrong on this, though, and such reports are indicative of what we believe is appropriate treatment.

the next time he feels like flapping his gums, he can tell folks that Gitmo sounds almost as bad as Chicago:

Always a compelling argument, that police departments are even more abusive. Here's what I think, though: previous attempts to bring this sort of episode to the attention of President Bush (disclaimer: aside from this, and lack of even the minimal, defensive lip service to this, has done a pretty good job, as far as I'm concerned) have met with similar dismissal. So here's me: just because you ideologically disagree with the messenger, and you disagree with the way in which the message is delivered, doesn't mean you ought to dismiss the message.

That's all I'm saying. There's something there we ought to be looking at, and instead we're seeing "Nazi".

[Geek, Esq.]

Were those Chicago incidents conducted under rules drafted by the White House?

[gt]

That's quite an argument Tom. I can just hear Condi talking to the Iraqis and Muslims in general, "If you think our military is brutal you should see our police!"

[SteveMG]

Watching people defend the indefensible is always an interesting hobby but sometimes hobbies have more serious consequences. As in this case.

That Senator Durbin chose the specific examples of the mass murder of millions of innocent Jews, Cambodians and assorted Russian nationalities (men, women and children) as a comparison of the mis-treatment of one terrorist reveals the absolute moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the leadership of that once great party.

His inability (or unwillingness? let's be charitable and say inability) to distinguish among these four events speaks volumes.

That others would defend that vile comparison reveals their own moral and intellectual vacuum. And since nature abhors a vacuum, that emptiness is filled with hatred and loathing for their own country.

At one time, I would call such statements and apologies for them disgusting. But after awhile, after you hear silence while enemies murder and behead and slaugher thousands of innocents, one just shrugs one's shoulders and recognize how far hatred and self-loathing can fall.

SMG

[Slartibartfast]

His inability (or unwillingness? let's be charitable and say inability) to distinguish among these four events speaks volumes.

Speaks so many volumes that his stupidity has somehow completely negated prisoner abuse? Interesting. So, if I've read this correctly, how he made this particular point is much more crucial than the point he's making?

[TM]

if this had been Americans subjected to that kind of treatment, and it were leftwingers trying to downplay the significance or severity of the treatment, I can only imagine how ol' Hugh would label them.

Your point is what? That Hugh will defend Americans even more vociferously than Durbin will defend terrorists?

If Hugh gets wind of these comments, I bet he will still sleep nights.

just because you ideologically disagree with the messenger, and you disagree with the way in which the message is delivered, doesn't mean you ought to dismiss the message.

The chaps at Blogcritics do a nice job of separating the message from the messenger.

And your point is what? Everyone who disagrees with Durbin's analogy approves of torture? Ridiculous.

Actually, I am digging the Chi-twon comparison. Consider - were th nazi death camps, the killing fields, and the gulags stae sponsored and approved operations?

Was the police behavior in Chicago offically sanctioned procedure? OR did the system eventually identify and correct it?

Is this "torture" at Gitmo state sponsored (and if so, why was the FBI investigating?

Which example, Chicago or Auschwitz, seems closer to Gitmo?

(I'll stop there - let me know if the questions are too difficult).

[The Kid]

Durbin and most of you have lost all sense of proportion. He has a leaked report of abuse of one prisoner. Because a criminal investigation is proceeding, the authorities can’t comment on it. Durbin, the publicity hound knows this and is unfairly – because he knows that others have to keep quiet – milking it for all it’s worth.

The point I took from TM’s extract of the Chicago mess is that abuse can be typical and tolerated in some organizations. Some prisons have been known for the criminality of the guards. But there’s no evidence that such is the case with Gitmo, yet the moonbats howl as though it were. In so doing, they are discrediting the personnel – military and civilian – who serve there honorably doing a really tough job. Each one of them knows that in the future they’ll get funny looks when someone finds out that they served at Gitmo.

[Cecil Turner]

It appears Durbin has a history of Godwin violations on the subject. But if the worst abuses in Gitmo don't compare with treatment in Chicago, what exactly is the beef? Is anyone seriously suggesting we couldn't find worse abuse in just about any prison in the US (let alone the Third World)?

And you really gotta like getting this kind of info from Al Jazeera:

A Pew Research Centre poll, taken over the weekend, indicated most Americans agree that reports of abuse at Guantanamo are isolated incidents, and 39% think the news media is paying too much attention to the issue.

[SteveMG]

"So, if I've read this correctly, how he made this particular point is much more crucial than the point he's making?"

My goodness, you can't see that HOW someone makes a point, viz., the historical analogies or references they make, is as important as the point being made? And that when someone tries to conflate two (or four in this case) separate historic events, the distortion renders the original point meaningless.

If I said your defense of Durbin sounded like Muezenberg's propaganda wouldn't my analogy be so silly as to make my criticism bankrupt? If I said the Democrats obstruction was similar to the Bolsheviks' actions against Czarist Russia, wouldn't you dismiss my larger point as one originating from a crank?

When Santorum made the historical reference to the Nazis when he criticized Democratic filibusters of judicial nominees, the Left went ape-shit. And rightly so (for the most part). His larger point, about Democratic obduracy of the confirmation process, was totally lost and rendered bankrupt when he brought up the Nazis.

Let me ask you: Is there ANY historical reference or event that the left uses when criticizing the Administration that you would find over the top? Nazis, Khmer Rouge, NKVD? Anything?

Or is this simply about accumulating power. Beating the evil Christers and neocons permits anything?

SMG

[Cousin Dave]

I cannot believe some of the posts here. Slart, Geek, etc., you are either with us or you are with the terrorists. (creepydude, I'm not bothering to ask you, because you've already made your position clear.) There is no nuance to be had here. Whose side are you on -- our side or their side?

And yes, I'm questioning your patriotism. As for Durbin, I'm not questioning his patriotism -- I'm dissing it. He is an enemy agent wannabe. He is unfit to be in the Senate, and if the Republican leadership in the Senate had any balls, there'd be an expulsion vote.

"Yep, if Private Jessica Lynch had been bound naked in a fetal position for such a long time that she soiled herself..."

As opposed to being gang-raped, fed into a metal shredder, or having her head sawed off with a rusty knife -- what the f is your point?

[Cousin Dave]

"Or is this simply about accumulating power. Beating the evil Christers and neocons permits anything?"

Being liberal permits anything. Laws and morals clearly are for chumps.

[Paul Zrimsek]

You're wasting your breath, SteveMG; these guys are just like Vidkun Quisling. Which is admittedly a ridiculous thing to say, but that's not as important as the point I'm making-- even if it's not possible to tell just what point I'm making because of the absurdly exaggerated way I'm making it.

[Miracle Max]

When you ride alone you ride with Bin Laden.

[SteveMG]

Cousin Dave:
".. you are either with us or you are with the terrorists."

Sorry, I have to disagree. I don't think the defenders of Durbin are in any way supporters of terrorism.

It seems to me that they believe that Bush and the neocons and what some call the "Christers" are more of a threat to America than the terrorists. They don't like or support the terrorists; it's that they view the threat from them as being smaller than the threat from those on the Right.

If you recall Christopher Hitchens' comments after 9/11 where he talked about the hundreds of letters and e-mail from his leftist readers all saying that the real threat to America came from Bush and Ashcroft and not the jihaddists.

In many ways, it's similar to the Cold War where the left embraced anti-anti-communism more than they embraced anti-communism. Many didn't defend or support Stalin et al. (some did) but they believed that any threat from communism was exaggerated and that the real danger came from the Right's use of the largely non-existent threat to suppress liberties and consolidate power here.

And so they want to defeat Bush (or the Right or neocons or Christers) more than they want to defeat the terrorists. The view the latter as less a direct threat than the former.

SMG

[Cecil Turner]

It's also worth noting VADM Church discussed the charges in the FBI e-mail three months ago:

We were aware of the FBI document of July of last year that talked about instances at Guantanamo Bay. Two of those instances have been investigated, and a third was under investigation as soon as that memo was received by the Army Criminal Investigation Division. I know there's two investigations ongoing, one by SOUTHCOM and one by the current Naval Inspector General looking at all these documents.

He also summed up the state of abuse at Gitmo in relation to abuse investigations in general:

Of these investigations, 71 (or 38%) had resulted in a finding of substantiated detainee abuse, including six cases involving detainee deaths. Eight of the 71 cases occurred at GTMO, all of which were relatively minor in their physical nature, although two of these involved unauthorized, sexually suggestive behavior by interrogators, which raises problematic issues concerning cultural and religious sensitivities.

The gulag/concentration camp comparison looks to be a bit of a stretch.

[gt]

"you are either with us or you are with the terrorists"

That's the silly nonsense that usually third-graders grow out of.

[SteveMG]

"you are either with us or you are with the terrorists"

"That's the silly nonsense that usually third-graders grow out of. "

Almost as silly - but not as dangerous - as making historical references to Auschwitz, Kampuchea and the Gulag when talking about Guantanamo.

Odd, one disturbs you enough to post critically, but the other doesn't.

SMG

[Geek, Esq.]

TM:

"Your point is what? That Hugh will defend Americans even more vociferously than Durbin will defend terrorists?"

The point, quite simply, is that the [i]behavior[/i] in question is what should be discussed.

To put it another way: Behavior that would provoke outspoken outrage if done [i]to[/i] our soldiers should provoke equal outrage if done [i]by[/i] our soldiers.

Many on the right, but not all, have sought to consistenly minimize the abuses committed by US troops. Hugh Hewitt is amongst the least honest of those apologists for such crimes. His tactics include:

1) Claiming that criticizing abuse is the same as hating/failing to support the troops;

2) Whine about the media covering the issue;

3) Engage in morally vacuous quibbles over semantics. "Sure it's cruel and degrading, but it's not like it's torture or anything."

#3 is a fundamentally dishonest tactic, for those using it would condemn in the harshest possible terms anyone using it to minimize abuses committed against US troops. It is unprincipled apologism.

Hewitt isn't defending Americans, and Durbin isn't defending terrorists. Durbin is defending American values by saying that we are above such things, while Hewitt is defending such practices by saying that we're not above them.

And of course what happened at Gitmo was state-sanctioned. Alberto "Torture Memo" Gonzales and other Bush administration lawyers practically provided the FAQ on how to commit depraved acts of cruelty while avoiding criminal liability. The "just a few bad apples" crock just won't cut it.

[ed]

Hmmm.

What nonsense. What I experienced a US Marine was far worse than most of that crap. At least that schmuck didn't get doused with tear gas while he was naked and covered with soap.

Color me extremely unimpressed.

[SteveMG]

Geek:
The topic on the table currently is not whether the practices at Guantanamo are right or wrong or legal or illegal, the issue at hand is whether Durbin's characterization of those tactics as being related to what the Nazis/Soviets/Khmer Rouge did has any merit.

The merits of the first question are separate from the merits of the second. By equating Guantanamo with Auschwitz et al., Durbin completely loses any moral standing whatsoever to comment on this issue. His general criticism of detainee treatment - even if legitimate - has lost any power, credibility, or authority.

All one simply has to do is say that his references were grossly inaccurate and irresponsible.

It seems to me that if one can't (or won't) make that call then, like Durbin, that person loses any standing to discuss this issue.

BTW, the comparison of the treatment of Americans is an excellent one. Although I do think that if Americans were killing civilians, cutting off heads, blowing up funerals and restaurants, not wearing identifiable uniforms or clothing and they were treated similarly to the prisoners at Guantanamo, the left would be excusing that treatment and excoriating the soldiers for their actions. Can you say Hotel Hanoi?

SMG

[Human]

When everybody gets upset about the daily violence in America then I'll believe we are making progress. As for the torture of my fellow Human down in Gitmo,I feel it is much worse than what the Nazis or Pol Pot did, no not on scale, which is a false argument for 2 wrongs do not make a right, but because it is done in my name and yours. The Ghouls Of Planet have called on Sen. Durbin to apoligize.
His response - "This administration should apologize to the American people for abandoning the Geneva Conventions and authorizing torture techniques that put our troops at risk and make Americans less secure," Durbin had said in a statement on Wednesday evening. Yeah I second that. And right after that Bush and his cabal should turn themselves in to the ICC. BTW I'am searching for sometype of sci-fi derogatory name for the DNC. Any ideas?

[Human]

China utalking to me? u talking to me? I don't see any other warmonger
Posted by Human on Jun 4, 2005 10:25am

So Rummy seems to say ala Deniro in Taxi Driver - SINGAPORE Jun 4, 2005 — China's military buildup, particularly its positioning of hundreds of missiles facing Taiwan, is a threat to Asian security, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Saturday. Rumsfeld rebuked China at a regional security conference here, saying it was pouring huge resources into its military and buying large amounts of sophisticated weapons despite facing no threat from any other country....
"Honey I think this driver is lost"
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With his hands remaining on the steering wheel, the drivers head turns a full 180 revealing a skull with a Cheshire grin.
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The taxi quickly picked up speed. The last thing Jack and Jill see as the taxi hurtled forward was the looming Chin Chang Bang Fireworks factory.
2 days later at a White House Press Conference -
President Bush- Good morning ladies and Gentlemen.2 days ago we and our al lies were struck by the enemies of freedom. By the dilegent efforts of our hard working people at CCIA(Corporate Central Intell. Agency) we have incontravertbrae evidunce that the Terrorist Group Muerte por Facsistas was involved. This group has ties to the UnAmerikkkan Venicewayla Government of President Chavez. Questions?
Sir- How can we believe the intell. When there have been so many intell failures in the past.
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A week later Airborne Troops from Ft. Braggort in the Federal District of Georgia sporting Chinese made Berets Dropped on the shores of Lake Maricaibo to secure the Oil terminals for the oppressed Venezuelan people.
When Aunt Tess woke up days after the blast she found herself being unloaded on a conveyor belt into the #3 Soylent Green Medical Center.
And junior? Well that’s another Chapter.

[SteveMG]

Human:
Let me get this right: You're saying that the murder of 7+ million by the Nazis, 20+ million by the Soviets and 2 million by the Khmer Rouge is less terrible than the mistreatment of one (okay, let's say 20) living prisoners at Guantanamo?

Because the latter was done by the US in your name?

20 abused terrorist prisoners is worse than 30 millions murdered/dead innocent ones?

And you call yourself "human"?

SMG

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

According to a story in the Washington Times, at Gitmo:

"The military is spending about $2.8 million to construct a psychiatric ward for mentally ill detainees....

"The psychiatric facility is needed because about 4 percent of the detainees are on psychotropic medications for illnesses ranging from schizophrenia to manic depression, said Navy Capt. Steve Edmonson, the head doctor for detainees."

The story opened with this tale:

-------------quote-------------
...after a guard discovered a dangerously sharp object hidden in the empty cell of a detainee, a violent confrontation ensued, illustrating military officials' contention that criticisms from human rights groups only tell part of the story.

According to two Army prison guards... the prisoner was temporarily in another part of the prison for a bath when the jagged, rectangular piece of metal, three to four inches long was found and removed.

....an altercation then followed in which the detainee tried to gouge out one of the guards' eyes.

After first allowing the detainee to return from his shower to the cell, a five-man team of guards then began a carefully choreographed "cell extraction" to move him to another cell, where he would not be able to do further damage.

"He was extremely aggressive from the moment we went in," said the 28-year-old guard, whose job it was to "push the detainee back" as another guard quickly handcuffed the prisoner.

Before the cuffs could go on though, things went wrong and the detainee forced his hands up under the first guard's plexiglass face mask and began digging for the eyeball.

"He tried to insert one finger into my eye socket, then he transitioned into a fishhook maneuver," the guard said. "He got his finger into my mouth and was trying to rip my cheek off." After another moment, the detainee's hands were forced down and into the cuffs.
----------endquote----------

These guys had to be chained to their seats, use portable toilets, and be fed by guards on the plane over from Afghanistan. That's how dangerous (loony) they are. Had Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot had to deal with people like this, Durbin thinks they would have put them in over-air-conditioned rooms?

[Jim Rockford]

What are the conclusions that we can draw from this?

1. Dick Durbin and the Democratic Party (which has not disavowed his statements) really do believe the American Military is made up of Nazi and Pol Pot genocidal torturerers? Evidence? They believe that turning up or down air conditioning and playing rap music non-stop for hardened Al Qaeda murderers is torture.

This is doubtless news to office workers and roofers (who work in extreme temperatures, my office is colder than Hades, roofing is hotter than hell). Doubtless news to teenagers listening to their fave rappers day in and out.

2. Durbin and Dems are HOSTILE to protecting America and saving American lives. They would rather have a moral vanity of feeling good about their image than save lives. But what can you expect from people who fundamentally hate America and what it stands for (freedom, liberty, justice, equality)? It's not like a single Democrat outside of Lieberman (targeted by the Kos Kidz for primary defeat) dislikes Flag burning or protested Jihadi Muslims burning and stomping the Flag in NYC recently. Meanwhile they consider Al Qaeda terrorists in Gitmo the "real" Muslims and worry about offending them. No such worries about Piss Christ or Dung Madonna (which are put in museums and celebrated).

3. At no point have Dems offered anything constructive, other than letting terrorists go (ala Biden) and apologizing to bin Laden (Pelosi, Kucinich, Durbin).

4. From this we can conclude that the Democratic Party is hostile to the values of patriotism, defending America, and the lives of those terrorists would kill. That Ward Churchill far from being a fringe crank pretty well represents the mainstream feelings of most of the Party apparatus (as distinct probably from most rank and file Democrats).

This is a disaster. Bush derangement echoing Clinton derangement, tinfoil hat fantasies instead of rational criticism of what Bush is doing. Essentially the entire Democratic Party went AWOL on fundamental issues of National Security, patriotism, and American values. Equating RAP MUSIC and women getting close to people (admittedly, if it's Roseanne Barr that's a problem) as torture. Worrying about hard core Al Qaeda killers including a putative 9/11 hijacker with ties to Mohammed Atta and Khalid Sheik Mohammed (remember those guys, the 9/11 lead hijacker and architect respectively)?

Most Americans feel that Sessions is right, we need to start shooting these guys not apologizing like Leahy or Biden or Durbin want. Democrats fundamentally want to trade American lives for not offending or holding any terrorists anywhere, therefore the only conclusion that we can make is that Dems don't think American lives or the country is worth defending.

Postscript: the EU court held that the UK can use hooding, stress positions, air conditioning, sleep deprivation in questioning IRA terrorists. So what we do at Gitmo is not out of line, considering that the folks involved help MURDER 3,000 Americans (agreed that most Dems felt they were "little Eichmans" and deserved it). How shameful.

[ed]

Hmmm.

1. @ Human
"for 2 wrongs do not make a right"

Really? Prove it. Otherwise it's as valid as saying "three lefts make a right". i.e. utterly pointless.

2. "When Aunt Tess woke up days after the blast she found herself being unloaded on a conveyor belt into the #3 Soylent Green Medical Center."

What the hell are you talking about?

Is there some part of this entire debate that I somehow missed?

[Les Nessman]

This whole Gitmo thing has the rest of the world thinking we torture prisoners.

Why do they think that we torture prisoners? It's not because it is true.

The reason the world has this misimpression of us is because the Lefties, Durbin, Durbin's Defenders, etc..keep lying and distorting stories about us.

How is that not treasonous?

[ToweringBarbarian]

If Mr. Durbin truly considers turning on an air conditioner to be torture then I wonder if Bill Frist might have a word with a few of the janitors around the Senate? It might be educational for him if he and his staffers were to find themselves without air conditioning for the rest of the summer. After all, we wouldn't want them to feel tortured, right? ^_~

[Slartibartfast]

And your point is what? Everyone who disagrees with Durbin's analogy approves of torture? Ridiculous.

Tom, when you hit the strawman, you're supposed to hold back on the follow-through. Otherwise you wind up falling on your face. IOW, I certainly didn't say anything resembling that.

[Slartibartfast]

If I said your defense of Durbin sounded like Muezenberg's propaganda wouldn't my analogy be so silly as to make my criticism bankrupt?

I'm not defending Durbin. Please see above comments regarding strawmen and follow-through.

[Slartibartfast]

I cannot believe some of the posts here. Slart, Geek, etc., you are either with us or you are with the terrorists. (creepydude, I'm not bothering to ask you, because you've already made your position clear.) There is no nuance to be had here. Whose side are you on -- our side or their side?

Wow, there are really only two choices? If so, I'd probably lean toward neither. I'm definitely not with the terrorists, and I'm looking rather askance at the "side" that thinks that prisoner abuse is something we want to be involved in. My not wanting to associate with the prisoner-abusers is in no way to be taken as an endorsement (or indeed, support of any kind for, or even slacking of opposition against the terrorists.

[Cecil Turner]

"I'm looking rather askance at the "side" that thinks that prisoner abuse is something we want to be involved in."

How about the "side" that suggests 8 substantiated incidents of prisoner abuse "all of which were relatively minor in their physical nature," isn't particularly worrisome?

[Beto Ochoa]

"The reason the world has this misimpression of us is because the Lefties, Durbin, Durbin's Defenders, etc..keep lying and distorting stories about us."

Bingo, 21, Gin, Royal Flush! We have a winner.
People never know what to think until they're told what to think. Humans that formulate opinions outside groupspeak are rare as hens teeth. It is especially so amongst educated (indoctrinated) cultists that long for a dictatorship of communist intelligentsia. The role of provocateurs like Durbin are well received amongst their ranks. He fattens himself on the same teat that Ward Churchill fattens himself on. To our great embarrassment, this is an industry that well rewards its minions. I would say this to Dick Durbin, “You are an unfortunate by-product of our socio-political system. You are the exact opposite of egalitarianism and justice. If this were 1863 you would be a slave owner north of the Mason-Dixon and beat your chattel when they displeased you yet, print invectives of those citizens who resided below it and did not own such. It is to our collective misfortune that citizens of your ilk are elevated to a position where you are able to inflict your inexorable vituperation on us all, even those who promote you. That those promoters are too obtuse to recognize the detriment you are to the collective is no excuse for their behavior. Your moral compass is defective and you relish in your pathetic bent. You are one of those who when your family is in a fight would only throw stones from the rear ranks not caring who gets hit. You foster a cult of mental disorder wherein any absurd and bigoted belief that supports its agenda must be tolerated, promoted by force and revered as doctrine by its fanatical partisans. Any and all means will be employed to achieve its despotic and tyrannical objectives, even the embracing of an enemy sworn to destroy it’s own existence and the sacrifice of unborn infants.

[SaveFarris]

"I hate Illinois Nazis."