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June 22, 2005

Comments

Jamie

IMHO, Daley's remarks left out a crucial clause, and was too vague: "I think it's a disgrace to say, without evidence, that any man or woman in the military would act like [not "that" but:] a Nazi, a gulag guard, or Pol Pot." After all, if our soldiers were actually sending detainees out to work long days in the Siberian winter in cardboard shoes, denying them adequate food and gassing them in the showers, or wiping them off the face of the earth, it would not be a disgrace but an act of righteousness to point it out.

The Left has tried, throughout Durbin's silliness, to portray the Right's attitude as "pro-torture" rather than "anti-complete-lack-of-perspective-and-use-of-overwrought-loaded-rhetoric." He committed two offenses: Godwin's Law-plus, and using standard-issue moral equivalence to equate torture, starvation, and murder with interrogation "softening-up" tactics that embarrass and make detainees uncomfortable. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone's protesting actual torture; I'd hope that if I learned of it myself, I'd be in the vanguard of those speaking against it.

Daley is of course free to speak as he will. But his denouncement of Durbin leaves the door open for unfounded accusations against the military, as long as certain people or regimes with highly negative connotations aren't invoked.

Forbes

Durbin couldn't have apologized, as we've been lectured for a week by the geek that the statement by the Senator was accurate. But if Durbin apologized, then maybe the geek was wrong. Wonders never cease.

The Kid

TM and Jamie make good points.

I note the emphasis on the military and would not be surprised if the Dems are keeping some powder dry for further attacks on Gitmo focusing on civilian personnel.

I find one odd voice this morning in an Orlando Sentinel column entitled “End women’s role at Guantanamo.”

While there are plenty of good reasons to keep Gitmo open — we need some place to hold suspected terrorists, after all — cleaning house seems an excellent idea. Let’s begin by getting rid of the women.

As an act of self-respect, as well as diplomacy, we should get women out of male prisons and interrogation centers and put an end to this ignorant, politically correct (forgive the redundancy), morally subversive, counterproductive policy of using women to sexually humiliate men as a means of breaking them down for questioning. From under exactly what rock did the perpetrators of these filthy methods crawl?

Various reports out of Gitmo suggest a consistent pattern of X-rated behavior by women toward men. (For a list taken from documents recently released to the American Civil Liberties Union under the Freedom of Information Act, go to aclu.org/torturefoia /released/052505/.)
[Snip]
Women have a legitimate role in the military and the war on terror, but playing the man-baiting whore is surely a sin of miscasting. And Gitmo, while not the killing camps of Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler, is not America either.

What would Andrew Sullivan say about this? And what do we do with women like this?

Jos Bleau

Perhaps the Times is saving it energies for an editorial where they note that the proper comparison is not to the Germans or the Russian but to those who actually trained the Gitmo interrogators - the Israelis.

How would that go over in Times world?

The Kid

JB -
Dave Kopel suggests:

The more plausible analogy to Guantanamo is British interrogation of Irish Republican Army suspects in the early 1970s. Then, the British extracted confessions through "the five techniques": wall-standing, hooding, continuous noise, deprivation of food, and deprivation of sleep. The European Court of Human Rights, in the 1978 case Republic of Ireland v. United Kingdom, ruled that the techniques did not constitute "torture," but were "inhuman and degrading," in violation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The European convention obviously does not apply to the American interrogation of Arab or Afghan terrorist suspects at a military base in Cuba, but there are still plausible objections that can be raised against coercive interrogations, even when the persons being interrogated are terrorists. Serious discussion about Guanatamo would be enhanced by looking to appropriate historical analogies (such as the U.K.'s self-defense in the 1970s against the I.R.A.), rather than to absurd analogies, such as those drawn by Senator Durbin, which trivialize the Holocaust, the Soviet genocide, and the Pol Pot genocide.

As to the techniques used, I've not seen a credible reference to Israeli training, but if you've got one, I'd like to see it.

SaveFarris

Someone who's clever will probably try to point out just how bankrupt the Democratic Party is: both morally and financially. I, however, am not that person.

Creech

It is not an apology to say "if I offended anyone, I'm sorry." Virtually anything said by anyone will offend someone. If it's true, no apology is needed. If it
isn't, then a simple "I was wrong and I'm sorry" is the proper apology. A careful reading of Durbin's remarks don't support the idea he called the military Nazis.
He was, however, hyperbolic. One should not compare minor or isolated instances of wrong doing with what the Nazis did systematically and on a grand scale.
Any one of us could find something done in our town,
city, state, country, and other countries that could draw parallels with something the Nazis did. After all, Hitler loved dogs so let's compare something the local SPCA leader says to Hitler. Or, he was a vegetarian so lets compare the local vegan advocate to him. Or compare Home Depot devotees to Hitler's predilection for scribbling renovation ideas on Speer's
blueprints. What Hitler and the Nazis did was so
monstrous that comparisons made by Santorum and Durbin
trivialize the Nazis' evilness. Let's save Nazism and Stalinism for more appropriate comparisons.

texas

Durbin didn't really apologize. Read what he said. He said it was a poor choice of words not a poor sentiment.

Earl

This whole accusation/apology is simply planned vitriol gone wrong. These Democrats are doing everything in their power to try to convince the people that Bush is evil. Every time they try this schtick, it blows up in their face.

Their best chance of victory in 2008 is to find a candidate who is willing to concede Bush's successes, but look to build upon his failures (getting action from Congress on Social Security etc.). Constant negativity will only doom them. That's definitely a bright side for us; with Howard Dean in charge, you'll never get a unifying message from the Democratic party.

Ugh

Bush successes include, besides tax cuts, what again?

TexasToast

As I predicted, another victory for the "If you don’t like the facts, shoot the messenger" strategy. As this thread makes clear, it’s a small step from "We weren't acting like NAZIs. How dare you!" to "Torture? What torture?".

Jamie, the government itself disagrees with your characterization of these techniques as “softening up” tactics. http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI_3977.pdf ">FBI_3977.

Sticks and stones may break detainee's bones, but words call for an apology.

nerdwallet


excerpt from Yahoo's AP version

syn

From Durbin's references to America existing on the same level as Nazi concentration camps, to the underground Democratic anti-semitism meeting, to Harry Reid and Joe Lieberman placating the Nazi rhetoric, to the absolute blame-Jews coming from the NY Times, why would Jewish Americans ever vote Democrat again?

Earl

You have proven my point, Ugh. The Dems are out of touch with society, which considered our efforts in Iraq a success. I'm not sure what opposition leaders expected the Iraq liberation to achieve.

If we had a media system that was honest, they could correlate the Democrats' viewpoints (anti-liberation in Iraq, pro-detainees at Gitmo) and show just how anti-American they are. I guess when you are one of them, you do your best to hide the iniquities of your friends.

ed

Hmmmm.

Isn't it strange watching liberals holding up the FBI, the *FBI*, as a bastion of forthrightness in government. An agency long denounced by the left, is now the darling of the left. The FBI, once attacked endlessly by the left, is now defended by the left.

It's really kinda funny.

Dave Schuler

If by “swing” you mean does Mayor Daley have the power to keep Durbin from running for re-election (or at least to ensure that he won't be re-elected if he does have the audacity to run against the mayor's wishes), why, then, yes, he does. Good assumption.

narciso

I'm sure there'll be a long NewsWeek piece about Dick Durbin's anti war ties at Georgetown and connections to
the Chicago 8, ths SDS, and the Days of Rage; (crickets
chirping in the background) I mean they didn't take
Trent Lott's apology at face value; did they; they did
everything but paint him as a Klansman in a blazer, making the Ole Miss riot connection, his employment with
Culmer, et al

Clipper

It is sad that a U S Senator has nothing better to do than use his office to falsely critisize a military effort to protect the U S. Senator Durbin should work as hard trying to solve the: Social Security crisis, Energy crisis, Unfog the tax code, and a bunch of other productive problems to be solved. Apparently The Liberals have nothing other than smears to advocate for Americ'a improvement. What Durbin doesn't realize is that if we were not fighting the Muslims in Iraq we would be fighting them here and the Liberals still would not get the job done.

Geek, Esq.

Hey Earl:

On what dimension does American society consider our efforts in Iraq a success?

59% of the population does NOT support the war. Are 59% of Americans anti-American.

Question for the rightwing noisemakers:

Would comparing Lt. Calley to Nazis be offensive? Why or why not?

BumperStickerist

The parallels to today are eerie ...

From PBS -
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/my_lai.html

------------------------------------------------------
Call for Investigation
Word of the [My Lai] atrocities did not reach the American public until November 1969, when journalist Seymour Hersh published a story detailing his conversations with a Vietnam veteran, Ron Ridenhour.

Ridenhour learned of the events at My Lai from members of Charlie Company who had been there. Before speaking with Hersh, he had appealed to Congress, the White House, and the Pentagon to investigate the matter.

The military investigation resulted in Calley's being charged with murder in September 1969 -- a full two months before the Hersh story hit the streets
-------------------------------------------------

Well, the military seems to have this pattern of scooping Hersh. But, anyway, I think the Nazis would have given one of their guys who shot up an enemy village an Iron Cross with an Oak Leaf Cluster ... it seems Calley was charged with murder.

If your point is that Lt. Calley's action, if read without identifying information, sounded more like those of thos of Nazi Germany, America, Russia, or the French Foreign Legion ... or a UN peace keeping operation.

I'd say that at that granular a level, one company in one village at one point in time, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference among any of them, at any point in history.

POUNCER

>Would comparing Lt. Calley to Nazis be offensive? Why or why not?

It is offensive. In particular it ignores the fact that other US Army personnel -- lower ranking enlisted men of a helicopter crew -- risked their lives and careers to break up a frenzied irrational assault by Lt Calley
and his company. My Lai demonstrated, as usual, that the US Army is composed in the main of decent human beings attempting to do violent dangerous missions without ruining their own humanity. The Nazi Party SS was, in the main, composed of methodical butchers getting their rocks off powertripping over already brutalized prisoners. There is a difference, and it is offensive to suggest otherwise.

Calley's company, by the way, was sent on a legimate military mission into My Lai expecting combat with a battalion of Viet Cong -- shortly after the truce-violating devestation of the Tet Offensive. Calley and co were advised by command intelligence that the ordinary villagers would be in the fields or marketplace by mid-morning -- that anyone left in My Lai should be presumed to be Viet Cong: armed, belligerant, enemies to be destroyed. This data was deeply flawed. Calley encounted instead old men, women and children. But psyched for a deadly battle, he ordered it up. Again, note, that not all the troops under his command obeyed his illegal orders, and those NOT under his direct command intervened. His superiors repudiated his actions, and Calley was subject to military justice. Calley's actions were not then and are not now representative of the US military.

Nazi SS "final solutions" at Auschwitz and elsewhere were completely representative of the whole political philosophy and un-military tradition of that organization. Even less-political more professional military officers of Germany in that era objected to the SS's atrocities. But the German military did NOT stop and imprison the SS the way the US military stopped Calley at My Lai.

To address another part of the post regarding polls. Surely the vast majority of Americans are against fires, and in particular are against arson. But would a poll show voters object to sending fire fighters into a burning building? Would they recommend fire fighters set a time table to pull out of a burning building after a set period, regardless of the condidition of the blaze? Would most Americans agree with the sentiment, "We support our fire fighters when they frag their chiefs?"

Just asking ...

Geek, Esq.

Isn't the incident described in the FBI email on a granular level as well?

In purely logical, syllogistic terms I don't see how referring to the [i]behavior[/i] of unnamed persons (who could be civilians, CIA, who knows) as more like Nazi values than American values is more of a smear on our troops than directly comparing a serviceperson to the Nazis?

Btw, Calley was pardoned by Richard Nixon.

Geek, Esq.

Pouncer:

I asked if comparing a monster and butcher like Calley to Nazis was offensive. I wasn't comparing anyone else to Nazis, just Calley.

Btw, he got nothing more than a slap on the wrist from the so-called Military 'Justice' system at the time.

And then he was pardoned by Richard Nixon.

I guess it's safe to say that their was more disapproval than horror at what Calley did. Because he wasn't supposed to get caught.

And given that the US started the fire in Iraq and that most people want the firefighters to get out of the building, your analogy is inapt.

Earl

Geek, Esq.:

Polls are useless. That's the left's answer to any question: "Look at this poll we administered, using our own phrasing of the question, and see how it favors our side of the story."

You want a great evening news story? Put a 1/2 hr of soldiers thanking this country for our support. Put it on every network. You'll see that number go to 59% in favor of the war.

My point is that a good number of your 59% may be misinformed. In the Bizarro world where the MSM is conservative, perhaps we're welcoming people home with open arms, instead of second-guessing their under-appreciated efforts.

Enough Already!

I heard Durbin was tearing-up. Voinovich was crying a few weeks ago.

THERE'S NO CRYING IN BASEBALL!

Putin doesn't cry. Sharon doesn't and he has reason to. The Islamobots don't cry when filming for Al-Jerkzeera. Baby Kim doesn't dance OR tear-up.

I'm sorry, I skipped classes the day weeping was taught.

Lurking Observer

The US started the fire in Iraq, eh?

Funny, I thought Saddam Hussein might've had something to do with it.

You know, invading Kuwait, refusing to abide by (still-in-force) UN Security Council Resolutions (Ch. VII, not CH VI, please don't conflate w/ the resolutions regarding Israel).

You know, not abiding by UNSCR 1441, which was his last chance to avoid war.

You know, firing at US and British aircraft in the no-fly-zone, offering bounties for captured pilots, etc.

Yet, somehow, it's the US, by compelling Hussein to actually abide by the terms of the resolutions, that started the fire.

I guess it was that warmonger Churchill who started World War II, as well, since all Hitler wanted was the return of Danzig.

I guess it was Truman who started the Cold War, by refusing to just hand over Turkey, Greece, and West Berlin to Stalin.

I guess it was FDR who started the fire in the Pacific, by not simply acquiescing to Japanese control of China.

Gotcha.

BumperStickerist

Calley wasn't pardoned by Nixon. Per an account on the History Channel - googled - calley nixon pardon


After Calley had served three days in prison, President Nixon ordered that he be taken to Fort Benning, Georgia, to be held under house arrest. Sequestered in a comfortable apartment, Calley was allowed to have pets, entertain guests, and cook his own meals.

Calley's life sentence was subsequently reduced to twenty years, then reduced again to ten years. In 1974 he was paroled after serving three years under house arrest.

So Calley had a conviction on his record, though he subsequently went into the insurance business.

As to the granularity, that would rather be the point of the whole exercise. The presence of these atrocities (which My Lai qualifies as) is to be expected during war time. What you, Kos, John Cole, and Sullivan more than the rest, fail to consider is that a ratio is what's called for, not an incident - by that measure - "Would 1 My Lai (or other) out of 50,000 combat patrols be more like the United States or Nazi Germany?"

I'd go with the US. I, based on what I've read, don't believe that we acted in a manner reminiscient of Genghis Khan, you might. I don't.

There's a similar issue with the 'torture' allegations -for starters, what's happened in Gitmo doesn't qualify as 'torture', imo. As a conversational overreach to make a point, sure, the term can be bandied about - for example, Kos makes reference to the years he spent in in Chicago as 'tortorous' ... he may be right, I don't know what temperature the air conditioning was set at.

fwiw - the incidence of atrocity makes a difference as does the consequences for not following the rules (provided there are any) when I set about placing the US on the Good/Evil graph.

But, again, Nixon didn't pardon Calley ... if that makes us less Nazi like, so much the better.

russ

Dubin HAS NOT apologized... Get it straight, douche bag Durbin did not apologize for his asinine and utterly stupid comments, he just apologized in case he hurt a few feelings...

Matt

My take on the entire Gitmo issue is the dems KNOW that there is abuse going on, they just can't prove it. Like the Bush Guard memos, knowing that something is true is simply more important than having any evidence that proves your theory.

Same thing with Bush- he's evil/Hitler because the dems KNOW he's evil/Hitler- the most recent proof, as cited to me by a moobat, is that just like Hitler massacred jews, so has bush massacred arabs. When I interjected that the majority of those arabs were terrorists and/or members of a corrupt regime, I was told that I had no proof of that and even if I did, it was irrelevant.

Apparently, murdering scumbags terrorists are people too.

Geek, Esq.

LO:

Saddam deployed US troops to Iraq and is responsible for the occupation? Funny, I thought that Bush was C-i-C. And comparing the threat posed by Saddam in 2003 to 1939 Nazi Germany is asinine.

Bumperstickerist:

Calley served a grand total of two days of jail time. Which amounts to something like a an hour per murder victim or so.

Check some more of your google sources. Nixon did in fact pardon Calley, so he didn't even have to serve his slap on the wrist sentence.

Of course, Nixon was an evil thug. And his pardon of Calley was a slap to all of the honorable servicepeople.

John Anderson

I note the closer from McCain (RINO-AZ) "I would like to say that the senator from Illinois, he did the right thing, the courageous thing, [by apologizing - JA] and I believe we can put this issue behind us."

Good. Now if Sen. McCain would apologize for trying, again, to make the First Amendment apply only to those without enough money to buy the city I live in...

Geek, Esq.

Btw, can anyone find a list of presidential pardons anywhere? I'm finding a lot of sources saying Calley was pardoned, but no source docs.

I may have to settle for him having been slapped on the wrist and then paroled.

DANEgerus

NOT an apology... it isn't an apology to say 'I'm sorry if you are thin skinned'...

"There's usually a quote from Abraham Lincoln that you can turn to in moments like this. Maybe this is the right one. Lincoln said, if the end brings me out right, what is said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten thousand angels swearing I was right wouldn't make any difference. -- Sen. Durbin(D)

Does anybody else find it offensive that Sen. "TheDick" Turban-Durbin(D) defends terrorists by comparing America's military to Fascists, Communists and blood-thirsty tyrants who slaughtered millions of their own people, then defends those remarks by quoting America's first (R)epublican president, Lincoln(R), who was expressing concerns about excess in the defense of America... from Slaveholding-Segregationist-Separatist (D)emocrats?

DANEgerus

By the way...

It was that Calley was the exception that demonstrates the rule that American's served honorably in Vietnam.

Where was Seymour Hersch when 5000 bodies were found in ditches in Hue in 1968?

The Communists killed millions in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia...

So to compare Nazis to Communists... fine.

But our boys, and our nation's government, has done pretty well as evidenced by the intense... hypocritical... scrutiny.

Tollhouse

Ever since you mentioned it, I've been looking but nothing definitive. All I can find is that he was paroled, which is a bit different then pardoned. Looks a bit like a piece of recieved wisdom in the vein of what an evil bastard Nixon was, "Nixon, hell, he even pardoned Calley!"

Funny though, I've mentioned before that the cherished stories of yesteryear, seem to be as slimly sourced as today's stories. I for one welcome the gaze of internet fact checkers, checking the past.

SteveMG

Geek:
Google search:
"On November 9, 1974, the Secretary of the Army announced that William Calley would be paroled."

Nixon resigned on August 8, 1974.

My guess is that because Calley was convicted in a military court that the Sec. Army (?) had the authority to parole him.

Whatever the case, Nixon didn't Pardon Calley.

BTW, in my opinion, Calley should have been shot.

SMG

Allan Bartlett

How about some Dick Durbin Haiku

Sorry I got caught
I opened my big fat mouth
Look like a fool now

Powder Blue Report

SaveFarris

Geek, since you're big on polls, then you'll see the REAL reason Durbin apoligized. Americans are solidy behind our Gitmo gang and are solidly against those who would describe it as Hittlerriffic.

BumperStickerist

Btw, can anyone find a list of presidential pardons anywhere? I'm finding a lot of sources saying Calley was pardoned, but no source docs.

I saw those sources that said Calley was pardoned by Nixon also. They were wrong, in the sense of 'contrary to the facts', however their points (as such) were made more fully and given more color due to the a-factual Nixon/Evil/Calley Pardon connection.

But, no matter .. I wasn't playing 'Gotcha!'

And, given that there is the meta-point about 'Well, Nixon made things easy for a guy who mowed down innocent civillians in a Vietnamese village, I hate that Nixon guy' ... with which I'd concur.

However, further reading on the My Lai incident continues to illustrate the difference and distinction between the United States Military and Nazi Germany's.

While the Massacre was taking place at My Lai other United States military troops recognized the atrocity taking place and interposed themselves between the civillians and the soldiers doing the killing, a choppper down in between the civillians and the officer gave orders to fire on the US soldiers if they continued.

I don't recall any stories of one SS company putting itself at risk to save enemy civillians during a massacre. Maybe you could help me out there.

So there's a recurring theme of recognition within the military when some its own go off the rails and there's definitely a track record of punishing the offendors (even if it does not satisfy your sense of justice).

Patrick R. Sullivan

Looks like Godwin's Law is vindicated. Rasmussen is reporting a poll that shows 70% of Americans think Gitmo detainees are being treated either, about right, or better than they deserve.

With only 14% saying that it's appropriate to compare the guards there with nazis.

Btw, in his memoir, Schwarzkopf says My Lai was not an innocent village. It was smack in the worst infestation of VC in South Vietnam, and the people were constantly ambushing GIS and blending into the populace. He said he could understand some soldiers getting fed up and deciding to put a stop to it.

Sean P

Allan:

I love it. How about this for the second stanza:

I love our soldiers
Not like Nazis or Pol Pot
Can I keep my job

Geek, Esq.

Bumperstickerist:

I fully and fervently agree that the US military of course is miles ahead of the SS in terms of moral behavior.

The question is whether one can compare Calley himself to the Nazis without implying that the US military is like the Nazis. I say yes.

Btw, why do people insist on calling the Senior Senator from Illinois "Turban." How is this different from making a a yamulke reference to a pro-Israel senator (which would be vile and offensive).

Moreover, do folks realize that turbans are worn primarily in South Asia, and not the Arab world?

Harry Arthur

Is anyone else tiring of the "apology culture" or is it just me? It seems that almost daily, if not certainly weekly, some group is offended and demands an apology. Let's see, we're apologizing for not doing enough here, not doing it soon enough, for doing too much there, for doing it too soon, and for saying or doing any number of things that some group, somewhere has found offensive. I think they should all apologize for demanding apologies - I'm very offended by apologies and those who demand them.

It didn't start with Trent Lott's famous gaffe and it certainly won't end with Senator Durbin's. Frankly, I'm tired of all the demands for apologies. Does anyone really believe we should fire people for making stupid comments? Good grief!

Durbin has a constitutional right to say stupid, and, yes, offensive things. As a 25 year career soldier and a conservative, I'd be the first to say that his comparison was inapt, inept, insulting, and probably gave some level of aid and comfort to our enemies, however, I'd rather he just said "Oops" and got on with doing the people's business than going through all this politically correct indignation and demands for apologies. Doesn't the congress of the United States have better things to do?

Seems to me everyone should have at least one "get out of jail free" card to lay down when they say something stupid. Lott's comments about Strom Thurmond would qualify; Dodd's comments about Robert Byrd would also; as would Durbin's recent comments IMHO. There are plenty of examples.

I really believe we're in peril of becoming a nation of wimps with our constant demands for apologies when it is deemed that someone has "offended" the tender sensibilities of some group. As if an apology wipes the slate clean. I'd prefer to hear something like: "Of all the stupid things I've ever said - that was one of them." "What I really meant to say if I had been thinking before talking was ..." then we just, as the saying goes, move on.

It is to the point now that there are topics that are completely off limits without offending this or that group thereby activating the "apology police." Larry Elder even wrote a book entitled Ten Things You Can't Say in America to illustrate the point. It should be mandatory reading for at least all politicians for starters, maybe for the rest of us too.

TM

Sean P - LOL (And who knew P Diddy also did haiku?)

Would Nixon's pardon of Calley be in "The Final Days"? I am shocked that a few minutes of googling does not lead me to anything in which I have confidence.

Neo

Why does all the Durbin stuff feel like the scenes from the movie "Patton" that most folks claim put them to sleep ? I mean all the political "bitch slapping" gets really old .. really fast. I could easily exist in a world without the words: "Nazi", "lie", and "gulag".
And please no more apologies. If you don't mean it, don't say it. If you say it, it just stays out there to torment you forever, in your own personal Nazi gulag of lies.

BumperStickerist

TM - the fact that Calley was paroled precludes the possibility that he was pardoned, by Nixon at least. Calley could have been pardoned by any of the subsequent Presidents, but as Calley was already back in civillian life I don't see there being some reason to 'clear his good name'.

Geek -

I understand the desire to narrow it down to a question to Calley himself and whether he would have been more at home in an SS Death's Head squad or running a US Army platoon in combat.

Also, Sen. Durbin didn't apply that level of specificity to his hypothetical and there was a clear indication that Durbin was indicting a group of people rather than the lead interrogator. Durbin didn't name names. If anything, he equated an ongoing series of events to a one-shot combat operation.

As for the Durbin/Turban ... well, we're a country where People Magazine, National Inquirer, and TV Guide and Reader's Digest are the number 1 publications. I wasn't surprised and I doubt that most people know the haberdashery of people outside the borders,

Fortunately for the Senator his surname isn't "Hammel" or "Smedayeen"

Geek, Esq.

Or Obama.

Harry Arthur

Geek, even Ted Kennedy can't seem to get Obama's name correct without turning into Osama and he's one of the "enlightend ones."

Forbes

Harry A:

Gotta agree with you on the apology police concept. Durbin, or anybody else, have a perfect right to say incredible things. Having said that, such remarks are likewise open to criticism and debate--but demanding an apology is neither. If such critique causes the speaker to reconsider their remarks, and therefore chooses to amend them, so be it.

Most of the time, foolish or wrongheaded remarks reveal the speaker as such. Calling for an apology does not in and of itself prove the foolish or wrongheaded case. Apology, as an appropriate response to such critique should be triggered by the reasoning therein contained--not the by the volume of the criticism.

In this instance, if Durbin is not embarrassed by his remarks, so be it. A man should be allowed to speak his mind, and thereby set the record straight as to where he stands. Sometimes the most powerful agrument is made by saying nothing, in response to such statements.

Expectations of civility and propriety are fine and necessary, but thin-skinned sensitivity is child-like.

Harry Arthur

Forbes, you're right. The way to deal with a dumb statment is to either ignore it or debate it but reflexively demanding an apology doesn't do it for me.

Now we've had Carl Rove say something probably equally stupid as did Durbin, and up jumps Chuck Shumer with an irate demand for an immediate apology.

Over on Patterico, biway said the following: "We all judge and are judged on what we say. That’s the only accountability we need. The flex built into this “natural” law allows us to go a little further than the literal truth to show extra conviction, with the caveat that your ass is on the line should the passage of time look disfavorably on what you said (or did). That’s why freedom of speech is far from anarchy. It is simply a rejection of top-down regulation of thought in favor of peer review (or something like it).

Forced apologies are nothing but a show of power, and faked apologies are nothing but a means of blunting an impending punishment. Anyone who has been a kid knows this. We can’t afford to spend our energy trucking with these kinds of gestures in national government."

I think he got the "accountability" and "peer review" concepts at least mostly right.

Also couldn't agree more with your take on the childishness of "thin-skinned sensitivity."

Mescalero

The anti-Semitism of the recent Conyers show trial is no mere accident. This drift of the Democratic Party to Stalino-Fascism has been apparent for the last thirty years.

How else can we understand a political party that treats a probable second-degree murderer like Ted Kennedy whose mommy bought off the state of Massachussetts to keep her son out of jail after Chappaquidick? How can we interpret the MSM, marching in lock step to the orders of the Democratic Party,failure to adequately cover John Kerry's lies about US military war crimes in Viet Nam. I don't recall hearing either Kennedy or Kerry demanding action against Pol Pot's goons. Why should they -- these filthy rich Democrats know that they will never be held accountable for their lies -- they know that the rest of us innocent peons will be held accountable whether we lied or not!

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