I Smell Press Cover-Up (And I'm Steaming)
I believe there may be a substantial, ongoing press cover-up in the Plame leak investigation. Various White House staffers claim to have heard about Ms. Plame from reporters, but not many reporters seem to have been subpoenaed - for example, in their recent coverage Adam Liptak of the Times only noted Matt Cooper of TIME, Judy Miller of the NY Times, Walter Pincus and Glenn Kessler of the WaPo, and Tim Russert of NBC News, in addition to the shadowy Robert Novak.
The picture of a beehive of reporters buzzing around the White House and chatting about Wilson and his wife is being leaked by folks seemingly sympathetic to the White House staffers. However, there aren't enough reporters in the story (only Judy seems to be unaccounted for), which poses some political puzzles for the White House.
But wait! Let's flash back to March 2004, when Newsday reported on subpoenas in the Plame investigation. Here is part of Newsday's list:
A federal grand jury has subpoenaed White House records on administration contacts with more than two dozen journalists and news media outlets in a special investigation into the improper leak of a covert CIA official's identity to columnist Robert Novak last July. They include:
Robert Novak, "Crossfire," "Capital Gang" and the Chicago Sun-Times
Knut Royce and Timothy M. Phelps, Newsday
Walter Pincus, Richard Leiby, Mike Allen, Dana Priest and Glenn Kessler, The Washington Post
Matthew Cooper, John Dickerson, Massimo Calabresi, Michael Duffy and James Carney, Time magazine
Evan Thomas, Newsweek
Andrea Mitchell, "Meet the Press," NBC
Chris Matthews, "Hardball," MSNBC
Tim Russert, Campbell Brown, NBC
Nicholas D. Kristof, David E. Sanger and Judith Miller, The New York Times
Greg Hitt and Paul Gigot, The Wall Street Journal
John Solomon, The Associated Press
Jeff Gannon, Talon News
Just to be clear, let's add this detail from the story:
There have been no reports of journalists being subpoenaed.
These subpoenas were for records of White House contacts with these reporters, not subpoenas for the reporters themselves. However...
The last name on the list should ring a bell - "Jeff Gannon" became famous in the Jeff Gannon / James Guckert "outing" of a partisan pseudo-reporter. Without re-fighting that war, let's note a key detail - although Guckert claims he was never actually subpoenaed (which is consistent with the Newsday account), he says that he was interviewed by federal investigators in the Plame case. From Editor and Publisher:
On the Plame probe
Guckert said that contrary to many press reports, he was never subpoenaed by the special prosecutor and has never testified before a grand jury in the case. But he said he was interviewed by two FBI agents in his home for about 90 minutes last year."I answered their questions truthfully and honestly, but I would prefer not to say more,” he said. “I assume the information was routed back and that is why I was not called to testify."
Well, my argument at the time was that Guckert knew nothing not available in the Wall Street Journal. But what about the many other reporters on that list - was Guckert the only one the Feds chose to interview? Possible, I suppose - the other reporters are at big firms with possibly scary lawyers. Or maybe Guckert is a liar puffing up his own status and gulling E&P. Or maybe Guckert was interviewed as part of this Dec 26, 2003 WaPo story, which means the Wall Street Journal should have been swept up as well.
But Newsday has a pretty plausible list of reporters who might have called the White House to follow up on Wilson's Jul y Op-Ed. And if those names are on the WH contact logs, and Special Counsel Fiztgerald has heard the staffer's side of the story, why would he not seek verification from the reporters? Regardless of the state of play in the spring of 2004, considering recent developments in the Plame story, if the reporter's chats were innocuous and *not* exculpatory of anyone in the White House, that is news.
Even if the various other reporter's only story is, "Fitzgerald tried to talk to me, but my legal team fought him off", that is still a story. Or, from another perspective, disclosure of a massive refusal by the press to cooperate with this investigation might be covered by "the public's right to know".
There are a lot of names there on that list - what did these reporters say, and when did they say it. Did they cooperate but promise their silence? Why? Or, was their contact so tame that Fitzgerald was not interested - tell us.
Or did they refuse to cooperate? If they refused in the name of press freedom on behalf of the public's right to know, would they mind informing their public of the good work they are undertaking on our behalf?
Right now Congress is debating a reporters shield law, while reporters are shielding us from some basic facts about this important case. What about my right to know?
The last word I saw was from Adam Liptak of the NY Times:
Four reporters have testified in the investigation: Glenn Kessler and Walter Pincus of The Washington Post, Tim Russert of NBC News and Matthew Cooper of Time magazine.
OK, "testified" might correspond with "grand jury", not "federal investigators", so maybe Mr. Liptak is leaving open the possibility that other reporters have been interviewed by investigators. Still, perhaps the NY Times could update their readers on the status of Nick Kristof and David Sanger, from the list above. Just to start.
It's a simple question, which any decent reporter could ask of any reporter on the list - in March, 2004 Newsday reported that Fitzgerald was interested in White House contacts with a number of reporters, including [insert name]. At least one reporter listed by Newsday was contacted by Federal investigators, although he did not testify to the grand jury. Have you been asked to talk with Federal investigators on the Plame leak investigation?
SOME DAYS CHICKEN SALAD: Decison '08 sends me to this Bloomberg account of a discrepancy in Tim Russert's story:
Lewis “Scooter'’ Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, told special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald that he first learned from NBC News reporter Tim Russert of the identity of CIA agent Valerie Plame, the wife of former ambassador and Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson. Russert has testified before a federal grand jury that he didn’t tell Libby of Plame’s identity.
Well, well. The NY Times puzzled over Mr. Russert's odd situation in the Liptak article (Russert only testified about what he told Libby, not what Libby told him) and we had mocked his lawyer's easily parsed "denial":
Mr. Russert, however, according to the NBC statement, said "he did not know Ms. Plame's name or that she was a C.I.A. operative and that he did not provide that information to Mr. Libby."
Please - did Russert tell Libby that Joe Wilson's wife tapped him for the Niger trip, without giving a name? Did Russert say she was an "analyst", not an "operative"?
None of this came up when Russert chatted with Matt Cooper on his "Meet The Pravda" show last weekend.

Somehow or other this is all Bill Clinton's doing.
Posted by: Miracle Max | July 21, 2005 at 08:46 PM
TM:
Dammed, home run. More than 500 feet too.
Problem is that the press doesn't tell us what to think, they tell us what to think about. And in this case, they don't want us thinking about the reporters above who also knew (reportedly) about Plame's identity.
Kaus will link to this for sure. This is a huge, huge part of the story.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG | July 21, 2005 at 08:47 PM
I completely agree with this post. The media are an integral part of this story, yet this is one of the best kept secrets in the country. Too bad the liberal media is in cahoots with the Bush administration! In all seriousness, though, the media has done a great job keeping secrets from the public, and a horrible job reporting on this story.
Speaking of reporters, Murray Waas' homepage, until 15 minutes ago, said he'd be breaking more Plame news "soon." That note has just been taken down, so maybe a story just dried up.
Posted by: Jim E. | July 21, 2005 at 08:49 PM
This is a fantastic scoop by TM. Huge.
I cannot emphasize enough how big this is. This takes the story to an entirely new level.
At least, it should.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG | July 21, 2005 at 08:55 PM
When Russert interviewed Cooper this weekend, did Russert disclose his own connection to the case?
Posted by: Jim E. | July 21, 2005 at 08:58 PM
Maybe all this time Fitzgerald has been working up a RICO indictment against the mainstream media. Wouldn't that be something ;)
Posted by: Tom Ault | July 21, 2005 at 09:19 PM
By way of clarification: so far, what link does Rove have to any of this outside of statements by Matt Cooper and a single e-mail, written not by Rove, but also by Matt Cooper? Is Matt Cooper the only person solidly linking Rove by name to this whole story?
If this went to court, especially if the charge were perjury based on a contradiction between Rove's statements and Cooper's, wouldn't it be extremely easy to generate reasonable doubt about Cooper's veracity and motivations?
Cooper's wife is Mandy Grunwald, after all, a Democratic strategist and good friend of Hillary. Add to that the fact that Plame's husband is an outspoken partisan, and all of this starts to look extremely fishy. Not automatic proof of innocence, but at least enough to considerably increase the prosectuter's burden of proof.
Somehow I think Fitgerald would need much more than statements by Cooper to make anything stick in a court of law.
Posted by: PaulS | July 21, 2005 at 09:29 PM
You know, this isn't about Wilson or Plame and only tangentally about Karl Rove. This is about the Democrats belief (and their poodles in the press) that GW is an idiot. Get rid of the genious of Karl Rove and the Democrats with their poodles will have their way with Bush. And yes this is about the Iraq War that the press dearly wants us to lose. And guess what, there is a quagmire today, it is in the press and the Wilson thing.
Posted by: David | July 21, 2005 at 09:37 PM
Any testimony from the Press would likely reveal more evidence of communications between reporters and White House officials. That might take some of the heat off Karl Rove but redirect it to other officials.
The only way that information from the press could help the White House is if it points to leaking from the CIA or State Department. It isn't likely that Agency people would out one of their own. But State did produce the June 10 report, and who knows how many staff there were aware of it?
The only problem is that, so far, the only known leakers are Libby and Rove.
Posted by: Miller | July 21, 2005 at 10:01 PM
When Russert interviewed Cooper this weekend, did Russert disclose his own connection to the case?
He did not, and the Anchoress was quite funny - "Just a Coupla Implicated White Guys, Sittin' Around Talkin'."
Posted by: TM | July 21, 2005 at 10:06 PM
Miller:
"That might take some of the heat off Karl Rove but redirect it to other officials."
No, it would direct some of the heat towards the PRESS. Officials in the W.H. reportedly state that they learned about Plame's covert status from other reporters.
How did these other reporters learn of her status? Did Judith Miller, who spent most of her time working on WMD issues, spread the word to other reporters? Did she learn about Plame 7-8 years ago? From who?
Who the hell exactly is Miller protecting? And what?
TM's observation potentially takes this story to an entirely different level.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG | July 21, 2005 at 10:09 PM
"I believe there may be a substantial, ongoing press cover-up in the Plame leak investigation."
Interesting. I believe there may be a substantial, ongoing White House cover-up in the Plame leak investigation.
Posted by: Martin | July 21, 2005 at 10:11 PM
And what a coinky-dink. Bloomberg is reporting tonight the reporters and the White House told different stories to the grand jury.
Posted by: Martin | July 21, 2005 at 10:18 PM
The last time that attention in this issue was focused on the Press, it was all about Miller and Cooper not testifying. Since Cooper found a way to spill the beans, things have gone straight downhill for Karl Rove and probably Scooter Libby as well.
Matt Cooper and Time have not fared so badly.
Be careful what you wish for.
Posted by: Davis | July 21, 2005 at 10:29 PM
"The only problem is that, so far, the only known leakers are Libby and Rove." This is opinion masquerading as fact. Please make a note of it.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 10:31 PM
Bloomberg has a story out tonight that reporters and White House officials gave conflicting accounts about who told who about the connection to Wilson's wife.
Conflicting testimony! Someone must be lying. And who are the bigger liars - reporters or politicians? (or Joe Wilson?) It is all so confusing with so many lies and so many liars.
Posted by: Marianne | July 21, 2005 at 10:40 PM
If Rove or Plame or Libby or Wilson or Powell or Judith Miller or whoever broke the law or behaved unethically, they should face the consequences. My position is:
1. Rove leaked nothing he thought to be confidential. Hence, the entire spectrum of crimes he has already been convicted of in this forum do not apply.
2. Rove couldn't have leaked anything confidential about Plame because her position was not confidetial. Hence, again, the entire spectrum of crimes he has already been convicted of in this forum do not apply.
3. This is a witch hunt solely intended to damage the Bush administration on the part of Big Media and sectors of the CIA and possibly other bureaucracies.
4. I agree that the biggest cover-up here has been by an incestous Big Media, which insists that it has a privilege to WITHHOLD information -- a claim ridiculous on its face because a free press exists for the express purpose of disseminating information.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 10:46 PM
"Bloomberg has a story out tonight that reporters and White House officials gave conflicting accounts about who told who about the connection to Wilson's wife."
Congrats, Tom, you got to it first.
This story is taking off again.
'Course, we'll need Akira Kurosawa to make sense of it.
Intrepid blogger played by Tom Cruise? Harrison Ford?
Eccentric posters played by a cast of thousands.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG | July 21, 2005 at 10:47 PM
Seven, I agree with you. It is hypocritical for the Press to stick their noses into everyone's business and think that they are exempt.
You may not agree with me, however, that the Administration is far too secretive. As citizens we deserve to know much more about many things including how the Iraq intelligence could have been so wrong.
Posted by: DW West | July 21, 2005 at 10:55 PM
I will make a solemn promise to you all:
If it turns out that you are correct, that this is a massive, coordinated media conspiracy undertaken for the benefit of the DNC and created out of whole cloth simply to discredit the President, the GOP, and the entire Executive Branch, will videotape myself eating a hat, and post it on the internet.
Posted by: RedDan | July 21, 2005 at 10:57 PM
More from Bloomberg:
Libby says that Tim Russert of NBC told him, but Russert denies it.
So who do you believe? Cheney's top dog or the big bad corporate (GE) media?
Posted by: Marianne | July 21, 2005 at 11:00 PM
RedDan:
I don't think Tom is arguing that this is some conspiracy between the press and the DNC to screw Bush. He's saying - and the evidence is getting pretty strong - that the press itself was circulating the information that Plame/Wilson was a covert CIA agent/operative (whatever).
And that many (some? all?) of the reporters listed above new this or were privy to the information and have been keeping their knowledge of her status out of the news.
This aspect of the story has NOT been reported by the various news figures. E.g., Russert et al. They've been keeping it quiet among themselves.
Now the key question in this is did the press tell W.H. officials about Plame and then they circulated the rumors/story or did someone in the W.H. tell a reporter and then it was circulated from there. Whatever the case, the press is a big part of this controversy. Or bigger part then they've let on.
Rashomon on the Potomac.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG | July 21, 2005 at 11:03 PM
DW - -The Senate Intelligence Report does a very nice job of laying out how and why intelligence was so wrong.
The thing you and I probably disagree on is that I think the Iraq invasion was a smart thing to do, and that the weapons of mass destruction was just an argument put forward for the invasion -- in retrospect, a bad argument.
I can't point to anything the administration has been overly secretive about. In fact, and I think this is inarguable, Tempest-in-a-Teapot-Dome boils down to a shrill charge by David Corn that the administration was not secretive ENOUGH.
The fact is, the Left in this country hates the president and they want to tarnish his image in any way possible.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:05 PM
What about Kerry? Did not he bomb Cambodia, while wearing a Green Beret?...from a PT Boat that was once skippered by his uncle, JFK?...while motoring Valerie across the border in the middle of the night?....right before he slote 3 PurpleHearts?....from Bob Dole?...while Clinton was smoking dope with Hillary...
Posted by: MGmidget | July 21, 2005 at 11:07 PM
I, too, will make a solemn promise to you all:
If it turns out that you are correct, that this is a massive, coordinated Bush administration conspiracy undertaken for the benefit of something (I'm not sure actually, but motive has never seemed important to the Left when the chum is in the water) and created out of whole cloth simply to discredit a has-been diplomat and his wife, Big Media, and the entire left in this country, I will videotape myself eating a hat, and post it on the Internet.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:10 PM
Who are you? I can't find a bio anywhere. What do you do?
Posted by: JOM Reader | July 21, 2005 at 11:12 PM
TM:
I really hate to break bad news to people, but:
That stuff you've been hearing about White House Staffers hearing about Plame from reporters?
It's a damn lie.
Wake up, people. The information was on Air Force One. Scooter Libby and Condi Rice aren't going to tell press whores stuff they wouldn't tell Karl Rove. Common sense.
The press people have undoubtedly been interviewed by DoJ people. Guess what they found? That all of those people didn't leak to WH officials, but rather got their information from Karl and Scooter, who just happened to be spearheading the administration's response on the Africa/Uranium issue.
No press conspiracy, just an administration that considered itself above the law.
Posted by: Geek, Esq. | July 21, 2005 at 11:16 PM
Geek, esq.:
That's right, reporters in Washington don't have their own sources. People like Judith Miller, who's worked in D.C. for over a decade covering WMD and the CIA, are incapable of finding out things on there own.
None of these reporters listed above is capable of finding out sources or the names of CIA agents or assets. They just sit on their asses and regurgitate press releases from the W.H. or the RNC.
Reporters and Administration officials don't exchange gossip and rumors to one another.
Did you read, Geek, about how Woodward met Mark Felton? And how Woodward cultivated sources? How do you think reporters cover their beats? Establish sources of information, et cetera?
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG | July 21, 2005 at 11:23 PM
Yep, above the law. Yep, yep. Above the law....all of 'em...those SOBs!
BWWWAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAA HAA huh huh huh heh
Posted by: Malph | July 21, 2005 at 11:24 PM
Geek: You cannot possibly verify a single statement that you have just made.
You don't know who was on any plane. You don't know who is lying or telling the truth. You don't know who has been interviewed by DoJ people. You don't know what the DoJ people found if, in fact, they conducted interviews. You don't know who, if anyone, spearheaded the administration's response on the Africa/Uranium issue.
I really wish that you would stop making stuff up.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:24 PM
Seven Machos:
He just finished his first year of law school. Go easy on him.
Posted by: ArminTamzarian | July 21, 2005 at 11:25 PM
Geek,
TM seems to have more data backing up why he's asking the question than you do for your bold statement of fact.
I'm going to go with the data on this one.
For the record, Andrea Mitchell has stated that she and others knew Plame worked for the CIA and it was not considered a secret (as did Plame former boss at the CIA, as did the MSM lawyer's brief when trying to save the reporters from jail).
The press is very clearly keeping information from the public and reporting selected bits of information. This may be groupthink and self-serving, but that doesn't make it a conspiracy. (A word attributed to people to discredit them more than it is actually used).
Posted by: tommy V | July 21, 2005 at 11:26 PM
Steve:
Is there ANY evidence that people in the press knew before Scooter and Karl? Does it make sense that Newsday would know this before Libby and Rove?
Read the morning papers, guys. Brutal stuff for your side.
Posted by: Geek, Esq. | July 21, 2005 at 11:30 PM
Does anyone have any idea why Miller is still in jail?
This seems to have dropped from the story completely. I don't believe for a second she is protecting Rove.
Posted by: Tommy V | July 21, 2005 at 11:31 PM
1. Who is Steve?
2. Know what? That Valerie Plame had been working since 1997 every day at an office at Langley? I don't see how someone at Newsday couldn't have known that a long time ago.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:33 PM
Geek:
Yes, there is evidence. According to Libby, Cooper broached the topic of Plame/Wilson to him. This means at the very least that Cooper was willing to discuss the Plame/Wilson issue with other officials.
We also know that Wilson intimated to David Corn that his wife was a CIA operative. Corn says that Wilson suggested a "what if" scenario and never openly revealed his wife's covert status.
It's conceivable to me that Plame/Wilson's status was known in segments of the press and that some reporters told others about it.
It's also conceivable that Rove revealed her status as well. It doesn't have to be either-or. Both could have happened. Rove could be guilty and Libby et al. innocent.
I would suggest to you that this is more complicated than the evil W.H. scenario that you appear to be embracing.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG | July 21, 2005 at 11:36 PM
Tommy: Miller is in jail for contempt of court because she refuses to answer Grand Jury questions and, probably more importantly, to turn over other evidence. She will stay in jail until she agrees to cooperate or until the Grand Jury adjourns, which I think will be sometime in the fall (unless it gets extended).
I'm sure the proscutor is happy to let her rot in jail. Certainly no skin off his back.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:37 PM
Great post with some great comments. Especially this:
"Problem is that the press doesn't tell us what to think, they tell us what to think about. "
Engrave that one.
Posted by: Mr. Snitch! | July 21, 2005 at 11:37 PM
If you want questions asked of these reporters, ask them. Pick up your telephone, use your e-mail, tell us what you ask, and keep us posted on the responses or lack thereof. Then, persuade other high-profile bloggers to do the same. You guys can get the answers if you want them, or at least you can do it as well as the mainstream press you are properly excoriating. SIC 'EM!!
Posted by: Randolph | July 21, 2005 at 11:38 PM
Steve:
A probable defendant's self-serving statement doesn't count as evidence in my book.
Posted by: Geek, Esq. | July 21, 2005 at 11:39 PM
First, it's totally ridiculous to charge Fitzgerald with being less than aggressive by nature with the press. Simply implausible. Miller (who he already hated) is sitting in a county jail. Cooper avoided the same by thismuch. Or let me refer you to a quote about the special council from someone who covered him in NY; "He's relentless, and he doesn't give a flying fuck about the press or the First Amendment. He'd throw us all in jail if it would help him make his case." He questioned Bush and Cheney; if he wanted Evan Thomas, he'd have gotten him. He may have. To charge Fitzgerald with negligence in the matter is also without any factual basis. If he needed their testimony, he'd have gotten it.
Furthermore, neither Rove nor Libby, nor any other White House figure for that matter can remember which journalist they heard it from first (and Luskin says, oh, whoops, maybe it was from a gov't official). Now, that might be because they're lying about that fact (look at Russert's testimony) but I'm sure if they did come up with a name, or even a couple possibilities, the candidates would have been interviewed.
Third, you're asking us to believe the Plame leak was the first virgin birth in 2000 years. Not possible. This was top secret information (if you believe the WSJ). It doesn't get to the press by osmosis, especially when the White House is digging around for info on the subject, getting memos made about it.
What you would have us believe, TM, is that a reporter is the original source, without a single government official being involved. It's just not on. The timeline goes too far back. The memories (of both Karl "4 seperate political regions of West Texas" Rove, and the VP's chief of staff) are too "fuzzy." And the information was too classified. Rove and Libby are lying.
Someone fathered this poor leak into the world. And it wasn't a media conspiracy.
And I really grow tired of every single Republican mistake being nothing more than the media's fault.
Posted by: SamAm | July 21, 2005 at 11:40 PM
Well, if Rove and Libby did hear about from a reporter then WHERE DID THE REPORTER LEARN OF IT?
Posted by: Alphonse | July 21, 2005 at 11:41 PM
The old rightwing rallying cry: It's never our fault--it's the damn media.
It's not the media's fault that Rove and Libby lied about their role in this.
Posted by: Geek, Esq. | July 21, 2005 at 11:42 PM
"Well, if Rove and Libby did hear about from a reporter then WHERE DID THE REPORTER LEARN OF IT?"
Funny how those believing Rove and Libby's version of events face the same kind of question as the people pushing 'Intelligent' Design.
Posted by: Geek, Esq. | July 21, 2005 at 11:45 PM
So, Geek, I take it you hold little stock in all of what Joe Wilson has said? He is certainly as probable a defendant as Rove is.
Further, I like to think that we do give defendants' statements serious weight. After all, we take great pride in the United States in both the substantial and procedural fairness of our court system. The burden is on the prosecution to prove every element of every claim against a criminal defendant.
You are especially shrill tonight, Geek. And you are embarrassing our already battered profession.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:45 PM
Are there people who really think that Wilson is as likely to be a defendant as Rove?
Wow, makes me appreciate the sanity and logical powers of Democratic Underground.
G'night lads.
Posted by: Geek, Esq. | July 21, 2005 at 11:50 PM
What government official made the first material statement that caused Valerie Plame's name to be dragged through the press?
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:51 PM
SamAm,
I agree with much of what you wrote in your 8:40pm post. But I don't think TM is necessarily saying this is a 100% percent media creation. (At least, that's not how I read him.) I think what he's saying is that a boatload of journalists have personally been involved in the investigation without ever publicly 'fessing up to it or explaining what their exact role was.
For example, Tim Russert sat there and interviewed Matt Cooper last Sunday without (apparently) ever disclosing his own role in the investigation. Russert's name will be in one of the new stories out tomorrow. How in the world is Russert interviewing other players in this story when he himself is one of the players?
Posted by: Jim E. | July 21, 2005 at 11:52 PM
Jim E. -- I agree completely.
Posted by: Seven Machos | July 21, 2005 at 11:53 PM
Machos,
You blame rape victims, too?
Posted by: Jim E. | July 21, 2005 at 11:54 PM