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July 30, 2005

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kim

And some day the barrier to entry to political communication will be as low the barrier to entry to electronic communication is now.

Tommy V

Good analysis, some great stuff in there, even if it delights in its own cynicsm. But a few poor conclusions.

The mainstream media was just as liberal before increased competition. Much of the competition was born vecause of that liberal dominance.

"they look for information that will support rather than undermine their existing beliefs."

I would agree with this, but clearly it is as true for Mr. Posner as it is for me.

kim

I like the old saying that Rupert Murdoch discovered a niche market, half of America.
=================================================

Jor

This was a great read. Whether you're liberal or conservative, you just don't have time to care nor do you want your beliefs challenged.

jor

Cynicisim I approve of


Journalists are reluctant to confess to pandering to their customers' biases; it challenges their self-image as servants of the general interest, unsullied by commerce. They want to think they inform the public, rather than just satisfying a consumer demand no more elevated or consequential than the demand for cosmetic surgery in Brazil or bullfights in Spain.

Black Jack

Who can't handle the truth?

Although Posner does a fairly descent job of explaining how markets can shape news coverage, he fails to include institutionalized bias among his list of active forces. His own bias is a good example and it shows in rather sharp relief when he slimes both Conservatives and the Swift Boat Vets while he claims the public has little interest in accurate reporting.

"The public's interest in factual accuracy is less an interest in truth than a delight in the unmasking of the opposition's errors. Conservatives were unembarrassed by the errors of the Swift Boat veterans, while taking gleeful satisfaction in the exposure of the forgeries on which Dan Rather had apparently relied, and in his resulting fall from grace. They reveled in Newsweek's retracting its story about flushing the Koran down a toilet yet would prefer that American abuse of prisoners be concealed."

Posner has confused the public's interests with his own political agenda, and his own delight in bitch slapping Conservatives. Posner and the MSM shows little interest in "factual accuracy" when it comes to "unmasking" the errors by the Left or by MSM. Note the lack of interest in the UN Oil for Food Scandal, or in John Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia story, or that Air America secretly took money from programs for children and the elderly.

Yet, Posner claims that, "...because there is a market demand for correcting the errors and ferreting out the misdeeds of one's enemies, the media exercise an important oversight function, creating accountability and deterring wrongdoing."

Those are pretty high sounding justifications for outright looking the other way when your guys are caught with their pants down.

Posner deludes himself if he actually thinks that the public prefers gossip and gotcha journalism to "factual accuracy." Foolishly he claims, "That, rather than educating the public about the deep issues, is (the media's) great social mission."

Gossip and finger pointing is what Posner says are the overarching values produced by media competition. "It shows how a market produces a social good as an unintended byproduct of self-interested behavior."

Please, permit me to doubt.

Joe Mealyus

"The degree of parasitism is striking in the case of those blogs that provide their readers with links to newspaper articles."

Links? What about blogs that provide their readers with supersized extracts from the original articles? Not that any examples come to mind just now....

Joe Mealyus

"They know that anyone can create a blog at essentially zero cost, that most bloggers are uncredentialed amateurs, that bloggers don't employ fact checkers and don't have editors and that a blogger can hide behind a pseudonym."

There is something here that really bugs me. "Don't have editors." My feeling is that the average post on the blogs that I like is actually *better* edited than the average column or editorial in the newspaper I read the most, the Seattle Times. The Times is constantly running pieces where I think "an editor should have caught this." And from the blog-analyses of the New York Times (via JustOneMinute, Kaus, DeLong, et al) I've read the past few years, it appears that even the best newspapers have this "unedited quality" that I find lacking in (better) blogs.

Note: I'm referring to the posts, not the comments....

kim

Hey, Posner, what Swiftie errors?
================================

Joe Mealyus

"However, we welcome reader's suggestions for a 'Shorter Posner' in the comments below - anyone who can summarize this article would be doing the rest of us a favor."

I would summarize Posner's thesis with the following extracts:

1. "A market gives people what they want, whether they want the same thing or different things."

2. "Only members of the intelligentsia, a tiny slice of the population, deliberate on public issues." [What everybody else wants from the news is implied in the next extract].

3. "Still, because there is a market demand for correcting the errors and ferreting out the misdeeds of one's enemies, the media exercise an important oversight function, creating accountability and deterring wrongdoing. That, rather than educating the public about the deep issues, is their great social mission."

4. "The limited consumer interest in the truth is the key to understanding why both left and right can plausibly denounce the same media for being biased in favor of the other."

5. "Yet what of the sliver of the public that does have a serious interest in policy issues? [It turns out that] "...serious magazines have held their own and that serious broadcast outlets, including that bane of the right, National Public Radio, are attracting ever larger audiences."

MaDr

Black Jack

To validate Posner's point about the self correcting/error checking ability of blogs, but at the same time provide an exception to his "The public's interest in factual accuracy is less an interest in truth than a delight in the unmasking of the opposition's errors." (I'm not your opponent); I offer the following:

Sir you are incorrect/misleading in your statement posted above:

"when your guys are caught with their pants down."

I respectfully submit that it is "panties", not "pants".

Joe Mealyus

"Posner ... fails to include institutionalized bias among his list of active forces. His own bias is a good example and it shows in rather sharp relief when he slimes both Conservatives and the Swift Boat Vets..."

And the Intelligent Design people (who aren't really all religious nuts, which is the besides the point anyway). But Posner is perhaps using the examples of the Swift Boat Vets and the Intelligent Design advocates because

1) he thinks their opponents have the upper hand in the respective debates;

2) he is well aware that NYT readers as a group are highly biased (if not filled with righteous rage) against these groups and using them as examples is an easy way of gaining credibility with the people he's addressing.

Steven J.

KIM - "I like the old saying that Rupert Murdoch discovered a niche market, half of America."

O'Reilly has Fox News highest rated show. It draws less than half of what CBS does and CBS is in third place, behind ABC and NBC.

PBS's Newshour has about the same draw as Falafel Boy.

Steven J.

BLACK - "His own bias is a good example and it shows in rather sharp relief when he slimes both Conservatives and the Swift Boat Vets "

It's almost impossible to slime the Shifty Vets. Case in point:

In Oregon, several pro-Kerry veterans called on a Clackamas County district attorney's office employee
to resign after he appeared in an ad sponsored by an anti-Kerry group. Alfred French said in the ad and swore in an affidavit, ''I served with John Kerry. ... He is lying about his record.'' French subsequently acknowledged he relied on the accounts of other veterans and did not witness Kerry in combat.

Kerry Accuses
GOP of 'Fear and Smear' Tactics
Democrat Speaks in New York
By MARY DALRYMPLE, AP, 8/24/04

Steven J.

BLACK - "Note the lack of interest in the UN Oil for Food Scandal"

Jeez, I guess the NY Times goofed when they put it on the front page so many times.

Attila (Pillage Idiot)

Mark Twain almost said it, but Pascal did.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/blaisepasc108650.html

kim

So SJ, are you trying to suggest that French didn''t serve with Kerry and that Kerry didn't lie about his record? And just why was he forced to resign? You didn't get into that part. Why you blankety-blank blank. I can see why you like people like Kerry and Wilson.
================================================

TCO

If you parse all the statements of the Swift Boat Vets, I'm sure you will find an error or two. But in large, there assertions of fact and on the large things were correct. Their assertions of opinion are debatable. They have been top notch about correcting things that were wrong and have made a serious effort to restrain those who would throw everything against the wall. FYI: I've met and talked with Roy Hoffman. He is impressive. So is Paul Galanti. I'd trust those guys with my six over a careerist/climber like Kerry.

Certainly, Kerry did the following strange things:

-served only 4 months in country
-applied for his own medals (I've got 13 years service and I've never seen anyone else do that)
-received his 3rd purple heart (first chronologically) despite his CO and medical officer disagreeing (one felt the injury self-inflicted, the other thought the scratch inconsequential).
-lied about a secret mission in Cambodia on christmas eve ("seared into his memory")

---------

the other things are really not issues of debate on what happened, but whether it was right: John Kerry dragged his fellow service-men through the mud, calling them in effect a bunch of Lt. Calley's when this was not true and when the people who said it were many exposed to not even have served.
-he also had private discussions with the North Vietnamese.

kim

They're gonna mumble about lying Swifties and Florida election fraud for a long time and for the same reason. They think it explains why they lost.
===================================================

Tommy V

There are quite a few things that make liberals scream like the chickens in CHICKEN RUN.

Among Them are...

1. George Bush (and anyone that works for him).

2. Fox News

3. Swift Boat Vets

4. Florida Electoral Votes

They never get over any of these. The list gets longer, it never gets shorter.

Steven J.

TCO - "applied for his own medals "

No he didn't. Below is just one example of the baseless smears about this matter:

"The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who
handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there
was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts.
"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference,
adding, "It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described the
action that day as "intense" and "unusual."
Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and
saying they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat was 50 to 60
yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had
received the report at headquarters, not the author."

Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
Veterans' Group Has Ties to Bush Family, President's Top Political Aide

By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG,
The New York Times 8/20/04

Steven J.

TCO - "John Kerry dragged his fellow service-men through the mud,"

You are mistaken:

TOMMY FRANKS (continuing directly): -the things that Senator Kerry said are undeniable about
activities in Vietnam. I think that things didn't go right in, in Vietnam. SOURCE:
HANNITY(8/3/04)

Steven J.

TCO - "lied about a secret mission in Cambodia on christmas eve ("seared into his memory")"

I would classify this as a simple mistake and note that O'Neill did admit to operating in Cambodia:

O'Neill said no one could cross the border by river and he claimed in an audio tape that his publicist played to CNN that he,
himself, had never been to Cambodia either. But in 1971, O'Neill said precisely the opposite to then President Richard Nixon.
O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.
NIXON: In a swift boat?
O'NEILL: Yes, sir.


CNN NEWSNIGHT AARON BROWN

Two Russian Passengers Planes Crash Within Minutes of Each Other; Cheney Cites States' Rights in Gay Marriage Debate;
Najaf Standoff
Aired August 24, 2004 - 22:00 ET

kim

Oh, SJ, it is obvious that you can be eaten alive.

1. One of the main reasons we want his reacords released is to see who wrote the after action reports. It was likely Kerry.

2. His report re: Winter Soldiers is specifically and generally wrong.

3. Go listen to the audio of O'Neill's conversation with Nixon. It is obvious that his saying he was in Cambodia was a mistake, he immediately corrected himself to say 'along the border'. O'Neill was in Vietnem later than Kerry at a time that it is documented that Swift Boats ran along the border.

4. "Christmas in Cambodia" a simple mistake? Fah, it was one he repeated often enough that he believed it himself.

I'll tell you right now, SJ, you are naive about the Swifties. You may as well give it up, now.
===================================================

kim

I am convinced the Swifties cost Kerry the election. His poll numbers dropped in mid-August from leading to losing and he never recovered. He hid from reporters for 6 critical weeks. Vets, including many like me who spent most of our adult lives conflicted about Vietnam, saw the light about Kerry. "Unfit for Command" sold 800,000 copies and got passed around. Vets and those they talked to swung the election.

I'm also convinced that the Swdifties will garner intense and objective research efforts. The Swifties were at the conjunction of three important phenomena, the '04 election, the Vietnam War, and the blogosphere.

I'll refer you to Beldarblog and Captain's Quarters and comments during Aug. and Sept. of 2004.
==================================================

kim

It was just a year ago he was 'reporting for duty'. The problem was that neither he nor we could see his duty clearly.

He was a loser, a bad one, and just why and how the Daemocratic Party picked him is a question it should ask itself if it doesn't want to lose again. Bush was extremely vulnerable.
===============================================

kim

The measure of Kerry, today, or last year, is not so much the ambiguities of his service in 'Nam(there were admirable things he did there), nor even his anti-war activities afterwards, but rather his response to the challenge of the Swifties in August. Did he answer them? No, it was smear them and their backers, threaten legal action against media outlets and bookstores, hide from reporters for....forever.

Telling, my child, telling.
====================================================

kim

Hiding from reporters, still? Well, has any reporter asked him about these events and gotten a response? And this is a country with a free press?

Free only in the blogosphere. The laborers of MSM act as if they heard galley proof and thought they were galley slaves.
================================================

kim

John who?
==========

Steven J.

KIM - "1. One of the main reasons we want his reacords released is to see who wrote the after action reports. It was likely Kerry."

There is absolutely no evidence for this claim. NONE.


Steven J.

KIM - "2. His report re: Winter Soldiers is specifically and generally wrong."

Not according to Tommy Franks.


Steven J.

KIM - "3. Go listen to the audio of O'Neill's conversation with Nixon. It is obvious that his saying he was in Cambodia was a mistake, he immediately corrected himself to say 'along the border'. "

Nope. He said he was stationed near Cambodia and went on missions inside Cambodia.

Steven J.

KIM - " Bush was extremely vulnerable."

Exactly! That's why the Noise Machine had to smear Kerry.

kim

1. The most compelling account is in the archives of Beldarblog. The initials are clerks. Direct and indirect evidence is that they are Kerry's. The writing is susceptible to expert examination.

2. I ignore selective quotation. The topic is extremely controversial. Bad things happened(morale and discipline were poor) but not to the scale Kerry claimed. He exaggerated for effect; a habit of his, I might add.

3. O'Neill has never claimed he went into Cambodia. Kerry has claimed that, repeatedly, including once for strong(I almost said powerful, but collapsed in hysteria) effect on the Senate floor. But Kerry wasn't there, he lied.

4. No, the Swifties challenged Kerry's claims about his service, and the noise machine could hear itself think.

kim

Uh, in point 1 I meant to say that direct and indirect evidence is that the after-action reports are Kerry's. He did not sign them; the initials belong to clerks who handled the reports.
========================

zarryo

This is a great read.

Les Nessman

Didn't Kerry repeatedly promise to make public all his military records?

Did he do this yet or did he just release some of his records to a couple of newspapers?

Steven J.

KIM - "Direct and indirect evidence is that they are Kerry's."

Please give examples & sources. (NEWSMAX and WEEKLY STANDARD don't count)

Steven J.

KIM -

HANNITY (8/3/04): I want to play a tape of John Kerry, and I want to get your
reaction to this tape.
KERRY (videotape, Dick Cavett Show, 1971): I personally didn't see personal
atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like
that. However, I did take part in free fire zones. I did take part in harassment
interdiction fire. I did take part in search and destroy missions in which the
houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground.
And all of these, I find out later on-these acts are contrary to The Hague and
Geneva conventions and to the laws of warfare. So, in that sense, anybody who
took part in those, if you carry out the application of the Nuremberg principles,
is in fact guilty.
HANNITY: What does that mean to you?
FRANKS (continuing directly): I think we had a lot of problems in Vietnam. One
was the lack of leadership of young people like in-in John Kerry's position. He
was a young officer over there, and I'm not sure that, that activities like
that didn't take place. In fact, quite the contrary. I'm sure that they did.
HANNITY(8/3/04): I mean, raped, murdered, all these things. But he never told
names. Does that anger you? I mean, this is the guy now that is the leading
candidate for the Democrats.
FRANKS (continuing directly): I don't know. I think Vietnam was-I think
Vietnam was a bad time. I think that what I've learned in my life, Sean, is that
it's a heck of a lot easier to protest than it is to step up and take responsibility
for the actions of a unit or for-or for your own actions. And so, I don't-I don't
like what I saw. But at the same time, I wouldn't say that-the things that
Senator Kerry said are undeniable about activities in Vietnam. I think
that things didn't go right in, in Vietnam.
TOMMY FRANKS (continuing directly): -the things that Senator Kerry said are undeniable about
activities in Vietnam. I think that things didn't go right in, in Vietnam. SOURCE:
HANNITY(8/3/04)

Tommy V

Steven J,

I don't understand what your point is in quoting Tommy Franks here. Nobody is denying atrocities happened in Vietnam. Your quotes do not refute anything.

What you read there is Tommy Franks unwilling to condemn John Kerry.

Are we still debating about the Swift Boat Vets? Still? The MSM did everything they could to discredit the Swiftboat Vets and were unable to do it. I have no doubt they would have done so already if they could have,

The nomination of Kerry was a terrible mistake on the Democrats fault.

They thought nominating a military veteran would be a good stand against the "weak on defense" perception, and then Kerry made the mistake of RUNNING ON HIS VIETNAM RECORD, "I'm John Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty."

Most of the men in his unit took umbrage to military hero claims and they spoke up. They had every right to, and their story was compelling enough and withstood enough scrutiny that their claims rang true to a lot of people.

(Note that the counter attack on Bush National Guard Duty was not compelling enough and did not withstand scrutiny. More importantly, Americans were able to judge Bush on his last four years and did not care as much about his life previous to that.)

Steven, please get over it. It's not worth debating about. I know you guys feel you have to counter EVERYTHING, but I would think you would have learned by now not EVERYTHING can be countered. It dilutes the times when you will be absolutely right, and people will be less likely to see that fact if you counter EVERYTHING.

Lesley

Had Kerry signed his Form SF 180 during his campaign, this brouhaha could have been put to rest.

May 20, 2005: "During an interview yesterday with Globe editorial writers and columnists, the former Democratic presidential nominee was asked if had signed Form SF 180, authorizing the Department of Defense to grant access to all his military records.
''I have signed it," Kerry said. Then, he added that his staff was ''still going through it" and ''very, very shortly, you will have a chance to see it."

Once this information is made public, we will have an opportunity to evaluate the Swift Boater's claims. Let the chips fall where they may.

gt

I think a large number of people simply want to read things that support their world view. That's the only explanation why, after the last few years, anyone can still talk of a liberal media bias.


Blogging simply makes this easier. There is no editiing or fact checking in blogging. If a blogger posts something wrong nobody can force him to retract or correct.

Steven J.

TOMMY V - "The MSM did everything they could to discredit the Swiftboat Vets and were unable to do it."

Only traitors believe the shifty vets.


kim

SJ. OK, once again what were the Swifties wrong about?
=============================================

gt

Almost everything Kim.

The only possible exception is Cambodia, and that is still something we don't know about. But they made up or were officilally contradicted on their claims about the PH as well as the other medals.


They've been pretty thoroughly discredited by now, only loony right wingers still trust them. The combiantion of documents and witnesses destroyed practically all their claims.

Slartibartfast
Almost everything Kim.

Yes, of course: everything. Even when they said "Kerry", they were talking about someone else.

Or, you could give us a for-instance. Since it was "almost everything", all you really have to do is pick the first thing you can find.

gt

Slarti,

I really don't want to revisit this. By now, given all the information that has come out, including several new witnesses that all support Kerry and even the paperwork for the medals of one of the accusers, continuing to support the Swift Vet's claims is like saying the Jews were behind 9/11.

There were 6 Swiftie claims. One was not debated on the facts since they are well known (Kerry's actions after Vietnam)> Another is still open (Cambodia). But the other 4 Swiftie claims (2 PHs, SS, and BS) are all contradicted bynew witnesses and documents.

TexasToast

"There are quite a few things that make liberals scream like the chickens in CHICKEN RUN.
Among Them are...
1. George Bush (and anyone that works for him).
2. Fox News
3. Swift Boat Vets
4. Florida Electoral Votes

They never get over any of these. The list gets longer, it never gets shorter.

How about

1. Teddy Kennedy
2. NY Times, CBS, Reuters, LA Times,(I could go on)
3. Jane Fonda in Vietnam
4. there is no analogy for Florida (OTTOMH)

Etienne

The Swiftliar campaign will go down in history as one of the most disgracefully unprincipled actions of the Republican Slime Machine. In fact, there is an Iraq War Vet running for Congress right now in Ohio (our new hotbed of Republican corruption) who is being insulted by his opponent in much the same way (claimed to have been a combat vet, while "only" being a community relations person in places like lovely Fallujah)...and the tactic is now known as "Swiftboating". Nice legacy there, guys. Denigrating American veterans in the pursuit of political gain. Sometimes it makes your head spin to think how much the old political realities have reversed themselves.

As for media bias, AnnCoulter said it best herself recently on the Sean Vanity show. When explaining why Bush should have nominated the most extreme candidate possible for the Supreme Court, she said "This is our time. We HAVE the media now." Truth found in the most unexpected of places.

Slartibartfast
The Swiftliar campaign will go down in history as one of the most disgracefully unprincipled actions of the Republican Slime Machine.

The connection between the Swift Boat Vets and the RNC would be interesting, indeed. Got a link?

TexasToast

The "link" is Perry. That's where the Swirties money came from. He and GWB go waay back.

Slartibartfast

Perry's on record as contributing just under 1% of their total budget. Where'd the rest come from?

TexasToast

His was the seed cash. I'm not at all surprised they got more contributions later.

Slartibartfast

Weird. Perry's down for $200k on one page at opensecrets; $4.5 mill on another. I sit corrected. I guess, though, that we can poison any well funded by George Soros in a similar way?

kim

Etienne: Ask a few vets about the Swifties. Oh, and very parenthetically, what do you think of John Edwards attempting to make a campaign issue out of Carolina mill jobs going overseas, jobs that had come to Carolina from Massachusetts half a century ago for the same reasons they are now fleeing Carolina?

gt: You've said the Swifties were debunked. I've asked how. You repeat that they have been debunked. I'm bored. Tell me something they got wrong and we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just exposing your sorry bluff.

TT: Check out how many total donors the Swifties had. Check out how many copies of 'Unfit for Command' were sold. Think how many people these politically aware and active buyers and donors talked to before the election. Why, it adds up to millions.
==============================================

kim

TT: What you fail to understand is that the Swifties seed was their outrage at Kerry's claims. The money came later, and most of it was small individual donors.
==============================================

gt

Kim,

I already did, however not in great detail.
I explained that of 6 main Swiftie accusations one is not debated on the facts since all agree, another is still open, but the 4 relating to the medals have all been contradicted by both new witnesses and official documents.

Do I need to repeat which witnesses and which documents for each medal?

Just one example of many. On the Silver Star accusations, where Kerry picked a Marine from the water under enemy fire, not only did several new witnesses come out, all supporting Kerry, and including one who was in the boat led by one of the Swift Boaters, but the official documents supporting a medal given to one of the accusing Swift Boaters that same day mentions the enemy fire. And the witness is one of the crewmen in that boat.

Like I said, I could go on and on.


kim

gt: That was the Bronze Star event, when he picked up a Special Forces guy who, in his panic, Kerry had dumped in the water. Like I said, I could go on and on.

So I will a little. Of the many accounts now in the record a few mention the distinct ack-ack of the AK-47. I don't doubt these aural memories. It also makes sense that they would fire at the site of an ambush. But they were few and don't put the lie to the main testimony of that day, of Kerry's cowardice.

Now here's the kicker. Had there been enemy fire, Kerry's panicked run down the river is even more damning, particularly when all the other boats rallied around the injured sailors.

So now, you go on. I'm eager to hear more of what you have to say about the Swifties. Your saying you could go on and on is a bluff. Sorry, Buddy, but you don't know jackshit.
=================================================
==============================================

kim

Purple Heart #1: When he got tired of firing his machine gun at Vietnamese(likely noncombatants) "fleeing like gazelles" he picked up a grenade launcher and injured himself with it. There is no documented return fire.

Purple Heart #2: Likely legitimate.

Purple Heart #3: Injured himself setting off a grenade in a pile of rice. Also injured himself that day as he accelerated off in a panic after dumping the soldier in the water.

Silver Star: Shot an armed, fleeing enemy soldier. No big problem there. However, his grounding his boat on the shore was foolish. I know it was commended; it was still foolish and may have helped cause the death of his best friend a few weeks later as he attempted a similar feat of 'valor'.

Bronze Star: Bogus, bogus, bogus for sooooo many reasons.
==================================================

gt

Jackshit? That's your comeback?

Oh well.

kim

No, Jackshit was the feint. You got flattened by the Roundhouse.
=================================================

kim

And the crowds gone home. But you're gonna be alright; I could always wake you up.
=================================================

GT

Then again after reading that Bush proposes that intelligent design be taught as a competing theory to evolution I understand that his supporters can't be very well educated or knowledgeable.

kim

ID criticizes the evolutionists on a point the evolutionists take on faith.
=================================================

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