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October 26, 2005

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jukeboxgrad

Kim: "some little upstart in the colonies"

There's a big difference between democracy growing from a revolution that's rooted locally, as compared with being imposed by an occupying power from a foreign culture. The whole idea of calling that "democracy" is a ludicrous contradiction in terms.

By the way, I think there's no need to drag sally into this.

Ordi: "the alphabet channels"

I guess you must think Fox is brainwashing everyone.

"47% understanding what it is all about after all the negative isn't too damn bad"

You're misunderstanding the results. Only 34% (not 47%) said "right thing." 13% said "not sure."

"53% is not a big victory."

Funny thing, I seem to recall the word "mandate" being used with regard to a number somewhat smaller than that.

Anyway, maybe you'll find these numbers more impressive: "Overall, how would you rate the job President Bush has done in handling the issue of Iraq over the last several months? 66% negative, 32% positive."

Folks are finally waking up to the reality that Bush's war-management skills are no better than his disaster-management skills.

Geek: "they were advanced, industrialized nations with well-developed civil society"

Good point. I should have let you handle this one.

windansea: "4 agents at meeting don't remember getting copies"

I don't think analysts paid much attention, because they already knew the whole Niger thing was bogus, and they also knew that no one upstairs cared that it was bogus.

Neo

why did they wait for the IAEA to say the niger docs were forgeries...they were debunked in 6 hours by IAEA...CIA had them for at least 6 months before IAEA report.

It's because the CIA is and has been incompetent and folks like Valerie Flame should have been outed and fired for telling Bill Clinton that Saadam had WMD when it is clear now that he went into "full bluff" mode in 1998.

jukeboxgrad

Ordi: "Fitz already knew she was not covert"

I guess you're not familiar with the opinion, dated 2/15/05 (pdf), written by the court that threw Miller in jail. Here are some excerpts:

"The Department of Justice undertook an investigation into whether government employees had violated federal law by the unauthorized disclosure of the identity of a CIA agent ... grand jury subpoenas were issued to Judith Miller, seeking documents and testimony related to conversations between her and a specified government official “occurring from on or about July 6, 2003, to on or about July 13, 2003, . . . concerning Valerie Plame Wilson (whether referred to by name or by description as the wife of Ambassador Wilson) or concerning Iraqi efforts to obtain uranium.” ... the special counsel is attempting to discover the origins of press reports describing Valerie Plame as a CIA operative monitoring weapons of mass destruction. ... Her exposure, therefore, not only may have jeopardized any covert activities of her own, but also may have endangered friends and associates from whom she might have gathered information in the past. ... the special counsel has established the need for Miller’s and Cooper’s testimony. Thus, considering the gravity of the suspected crime and the low value of the leaked information, no privilege bars the subpoenas."

It seems like a number of very serious judges and DOJ/FBI people have been operating under the assumption that she was indeed covert.

If you know better, more power to you.

windansea

Betoa Ochoa

salud...

PK sabes? otro lado?


windansea

or concerning Iraqi efforts to obtain uranium.”

that's my boy...

jukeboxgrad

Neo: "the CIA is and has been incompetent"

Maybe you'd like to tell us why the top guy got a medal.

kim

Why do somae people get a watch when they retire?

And would you call the Iraqi purple finger government a 'ludicrous contradiction in terms'?
======================================

kim

Why do somae people get a watch when they retire?

And would you call the Iraqi purple finger government a 'ludicrous contradiction in terms'?
======================================

ordi

Thanks Juke! Glad you recognize my power!

She was not covert! She had already been outed multiple times. Once by Agee, once in IIRC 1994, once by her hubby on HIS website!

jukeboxgrad

Kim: "would you call the Iraqi purple finger government a 'ludicrous contradiction in terms'?"

Yes, if you attempt to call it a "democracy" worth 17,000 US casualties. Maybe you didn't notice that the constitution establishes Islam as the state religion, says that no laws may be created which contradict Islam, and puts ayatollahs on the supreme court. Iran is very happy about this.

And that's all aside from the fact that the Sunnis reject the constitution, and they're the folks backing the insurgency. Oh well. At least purple is a nice color.

Ordi: "She had already been outed multiple times."

I guess you were impressed by the amicus brief. Too bad Hogan et al weren't.

"once by her hubby on HIS website!"

Which internets was that website on? Because on the internets I know about, there was a web site with her name, but it said nothing about her employment with the CIA. Maybe that crucial distinction is over your head.

topsecretk9

I really think this is telling this late in the game...because I don't think it matters one wit if Mrs. Jones across the street knows Valerie status as it pertains to Libby and Rove...unless Rove and Libby socialize with these people too.

If the CIA has told Fitz she was covert, the Jones' knowing is a whole OTHER issue to Fitz as it pertains to Valerie

It isn't even a good legal defense if the issue is leaking classified information they were not supposed to leak. That old saying 2 wrongs don't make a right. If they heard it from an outside social setting than those certain people are who the defense cares about, not neighbors that Libby and Rove do not know. It may hurt her credibility, but again it will be a closely defined law that jurors will have to decide.

It could be a simple as dotting i's and crossing t's, but this is late in the game preserving the record. Let's put it this way, would Fitz gamble and muck up a 2 year investigation that a few neighbors just might know?

windansea

I guess you're still not getting it. A whole slew of agencies had these documents, not just CIA. And it's not like no one realized they were forged. Various people questioned the documents (including at least one person cited in SSCI, p. 62). But top management wasn't listening. The real mystery is why no senior US intel official was awake enough to listen to the various people saying the documents were forged, since the errors were glaringly obvious. Hmm, let's see, could it have something to do with the fact that all parties knew exactly what Cheney wanted to hear, and exactly what he didn't want to hear?

Jukey....show me an official CIA declaration that the niger docs were obvious forgeries before the IAEA did

hedging and ruffled feathers don't get it...the CIA is the most well funded intelligence agency in the world...an IAEA expert pulled their pants down in 6 hours

they sat on it and all that smoke in the sen intel report gives us a glimpse of the coverup...

and if "they all gave Cheney what he wanted" as you assert...they are traitors...

imagine yourself on the stand with that defense

"we never checked the docs out cuz we figured this intel was what big time asked for"

"err...the guy who put em in the safe was on leave"


BurbankErnie

Juke,
Your PDF Link states "Press reports claim she was covert..."

Your point?

kim

You are remarkably ignorant about Iraq, JBG. Many Sunni voted for the constitution. The Iraqis have done better than many Islamic countries at separating church and state and they will continue to do so, particularly since a unified Iraq is diverse culturally, ethnically and religiously. Sistani, Master of the Mosque, studied Voltaire, Jefferson, and others because the Koran does not discuss democracy.

There is more likelihood of the secularism of Iraq spreading to Iran than the theocracy of Iran spreading to Iraq. The ayatollahs are doomed.

The Kurds, and the Shia will offer the Iraqi Sunni a share of the oil in exchange for their function as a buffer people between them and the Syrians and Saudis.

And Chalabi is the Master of the Bazaar.
=========================

kim

Look, it's not like Zarqawi is Robin Hood, and the terrorists his Band of Merry Pranksters.
=============================================

windansea

You are remarkably ignorant about Iraq, JBG.

no shit...what was it 80% for 20% against?

why that's a total failure!!!

pollyusa

jukeboxgrad

You've missed very little. Thought you might find that post interesting.

TexasToast

You are remarkably ignorant about Iraq, JBG. no shit...what was it 80% for 20% against? why that's a total failure!!!

200? and counting. A constitution with no support in the Sunni areas harboring and supporting the insurgency. When is the next troop rotation?

kim

The wise Sunni are not supporting the insurgency. If some of the Sunni want to marginalize themselves in the desert and along the Euphrates, or become an independent buffer state between Iraq and Syria, it will be their loss. They will become traditional, farmers and nomads. No oil in Iraqi Sunniland.
==============================================

!

Your welcome, windansea. I think someone else answered your questions about the IAEA being so quick.
From my understanding, only a few--out of all parties who reviewed the info or the docs--believed the docs to be credible.
Also, from what I've read, if there was any possibility of a sale from the mines in Niger, it would take a consensus of Japan, France and one other country to rubberstamp such a sale. All three countries, or companies within those countries, co-owned the mines. Take that with a grain of salt though. I'm going from memor¥.

TS9 brings up an really good point about interviewing the neighbors and what it likely means. I tend to agree. There is a good chance that someone testified that "even the neighbors knew Plame's job." Either that is coctail chat disclosure or perhaps the people who testified were passing along info from media accounts or, and this might be a first, Internet rumors.

Whatever the purpose of the late investigating by the FBI is most likely just verifiying something which was said by someone.

Of course, you could tie the Rove bsrgaining for absolution story into it for kicks. We'll all know by Friday. And we'll know if either Raw Story or Redstate is close to right about their sources. (that's all I'm concerned with; not the alleged crimes, the circuses or the malfeasance. Just if those two websites are to be trusted.

Keep your bloodpressures low, guys and gals... er... I mean good night.

!

Clarification:
the few parties who thought the docs to be credible were at odds with many who thought the docs were not credible. The IAEA, the Dept. of Energy and others were not supporting the docs and other WMD info as credible, hence the true believers dismissed the opinion of dissenting, unsupportive parties.

And, on the trinumverate that owns the uranium mines: since the co-ownership would have to ratify such a sale it would lead to papertrails beyond the country of Niger. There would be records in other countries, too, you see.
And, theoretically--unless it was completely black market--would not have occured without people knowing. If it was completely blackmarket then there would not likely be intel docs that had transaction information.

Someone please don't tell me the forged docs also had an invoice or reciept of sale, too?

hahaha.

And, I know that Pakistani scientist trafficked WMD for years before he was caught but that was totally involving 3rd world despots and not involving France, Japan and that other country. Italy? Germany?

Syl

TT

"A constitution with no support in the Sunni areas harboring and supporting the insurgency."

The point, because you missed it, is that they actually VOTED. They joined the democratic process. The next step is to learn that one does not always get their way in a democracy. Something which you haven't learned yet, so why expect the Sunni's to be any different?

The constitution has provisions for changing it. The NEXT election, where political power is doled out is more important than the words in the constitution that was voted in.

Democracy is a process not an event. The iraqi people's willingness to defy death to VOTE shows their will for this. Stop picking on them.

And, in case you didn't know, all Sunni's are not alike. More than half of Baghdad is Sunni and Baghdad accepted the consitution.

Iraq is not about you, TT, or your opinions of the war, Bush, nuclear clouds, anything else. That came before and was decided by Congress. It's about the Iraqi's embracing a new way of governance which they have shown TWICE they believe in.

Syl

TOP

"Is Syl around? I want to throw something at his conspiracy theory, or Syl, did you explain to earlier you changed it? "

I keep weird hours. You mean my theory that Wilson had no compunction against his wife being outed, and in fact set up the conditions whereby it would be a certainty. And thus get someone in deep doo-doo?

It really depended on Harlow not checking her status on purpose. Some days I go one way, other days I think his was a genuine 'oops'.

BTW, I'm a she.

Syl

JBG

"Also, maybe you can explain why you're confident democratic Arab regimes won't be as violently anti-American as despotic Arab regimes."

The truth comes out, eventually. That's a very racist remark. As well as a strawman. Because being anti-American means squat. It's how one acts out that anti-Americanism that's important. And democracies tend not to cause themselves trouble by allowing their governments to support and send terrorists off to blow up innocents. Turkey voted in an Islamist government but they're still arresting terrorists right and left. If the Islamists try to do something stupid, they'd be voted out. Damn, even many ordinary Palestinians understand that.

Syl

JBG

You spin half truths as if they mean something they don't. You spout some nonsense, and you are corrected. Then in another thread you spout the same thing again.

"I guess that includes our freedom to turn Iraq into a battlefield even though 82% of them want us out."

This is such bs propaganda, JBG. And there are plenty of people who believe you when you spout such shite as if it's some universal truth or something.

Is there anyone, anywhere, in any country where a war is happening, who would NOT want the'occupiers' out?

The unstated fact is that even though they want us out, they don't want us to leave yet.

The Iraqi people are smarter than you, JBG. And have shown it over and over.

The insurgency never ever got wide support among the Iraqi's. Never. The insurgency isn't even supported by all Sunni's, JBG.

Got that?

Of course you know that. You repeat your claims only to undermine support for Iraq. You cannot claim ignorance. You are being willful in spreading shite like this.

And that makes you scum, JBG.

Syl

JBG

"There's a big difference between democracy growing from a revolution that's rooted locally, as compared with being imposed by an occupying power from a foreign culture."

The telling phrase here is 'foreign culture'. Cute. Exactly what are we 'imposing' on a people who have proven, twice, that they want freedom and consensual government? Especially when we let them write their own constitution. Which, btw, is not like a constitution WE would write.

JBG, what are we 'imposing' on them that they don't want for themselves? Tell me. Or do you think the Iraqi people are so stupid that we are leading them around by the nose? Their march to the polls is meaningless because we told them what was good for them and they could never figure it out for themselves? That would be, again, racist.

The Iraqi people are, indeed, smarter than you. And you denigrate them because of your politics.

You are indeed scum.

Syl

JBG

"I don't think analysts paid much attention, because they already knew the whole Niger thing was bogus, and they also knew that no one upstairs cared that it was bogus."

Of course you would think that. You believe Wilson.

The intelligence community thought an actual sales transaction was bogus. Not the 'whole Niger thing' which ALSO included attempts by Saddam of opening trade, which indicate intent.

The forged docs are a red herring. Fun to speculate on who created them and why. Beyond that they are meaningless and didn't change the case for war ONE IOTA.

I'll say it again:

The forged docs concerned a sales agreement. Attempts to purchase show intent.

Different animals.

And I'll call you on it any time you or anyone else attempt to claim the forged documents meant anything more than someone putting something into the system to cause confusion. The forged documents had no affect on the case for war.

The intelligence community was skeptical of an actual sale anyway. The fact that a sales agreement was forged only added to that skepticism.

The forged documents are a red herring.

Syl

JBG

quoting from the Appeal decision: "unauthorized disclosure of the identity of a CIA agent"

then says:

"It seems like a number of very serious judges and DOJ/FBI people have been operating under the assumption that she was indeed covert."

No, it does not. Re-read this part.

"may have jeopardized any covert activities of her own, but also may have endangered friends and associates from whom she might have gathered information in the past."

JBG, her status was NOC. Therefore they shouldn't have identified her as being CIA because her status was therefore classified.

That does not mean she actually was engaged in covert activity. The damage assessment is what determines the seriousness of exposure, if any. And it looks like part of that assessment is only occurring now. (general knowledge of her being CIA prior to the outing).

JBG, you are a waste of time.

Syl

JBG

"Maybe you didn't notice that the constitution establishes Islam as the state religion, says that no laws may be created which contradict Islam,"

What about the rest of it? You know where it also says that no laws may be created that contradict human rights? They've set up a clever boolean construction here.

Again, the Iraqi people are smarter than you.

Lay off them.

hrtshpdbox

Also, maybe you can explain why you're confident democratic Arab regimes won't be as violently anti-American as despotic Arab regimes.
>

I think it's pretty safe to say that, in general, democrats are less violent than despots.

cathyf
cathyf: "If Plame told Wilson what was in the forged documents while they were still classified, it's 10 years in prison for her."

It might help if you cross all your fingers and all your toes.

Well, that's really the central question here, isn't it? If you're one of the MSM's annointed ones (Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Sandy Berger, John Kerry, Dan Rather, Joe Wilson, etc. ad naseum), then you don't even have to cross the minimal 2 fingers to escape any accountability at all for your actions. If you are one of those evil neocons, you don't have to break any actual laws to be frog-marched out in handcuffs. Cause like ya know, everybody knows that they're evil and they should be punished just for that.

So, what's it gonna be? If Valerie has done something illegal, does she need to cross any fingers or toes? It sounds like the WaPo is ready to toss Joe out of the clique -- what about the rest of the kool kids? Of course it's reasonably likely that Valerie didn't tell Joe anything at all about the memos, and he just read the news accounts in March 2003 and invented the whole fantasy of how he knew all along they were frauds. So maybe she really didn't do anything illegal with the forged memos and since she isn't one of those evil neocons she doesn't have to worry about being punished if she didn't do anything wrong. If she did do something wrong somewhere else, we'll have to wait for more evidence to tell whether she is one of the MSM's Above The Law Annointed Ones.

And more importantly, whether Fitzgerald gives a s*** about the annointings the MSM has bestowed.

cathy :-)

clarice

I read that Fox reports this morning that Fitz has said no action has yet been taken by the gj. (So much for the sealed indictement theory, if true.)

Joe

To paraphrase the immortal Ty Webb, "Don't sell yourself short, you've got a tremendous gut."

jukeboxgrad

topsecret: "If they heard it from an outside social setting than those certain people are who the defense cares about"

One of the many misconceptions that has spread far and wide is the idea that it matters where they heard it. It doesn't matter where they heard it. What matters is what they did with it.

If Rove hears classified information passed to him by reporter A, that does not amount to a free pass for Rove to pass the classified information to reporter B.

And it's not enough to claim "I heard it from a reporter, so therefore I assumed it wasn't classified information." That's lame. SF-312 indicates that if you're not sure whether or not something is classified, you have to check first before you blab it.

Anyway, this is most likely moot. It's looking more and more like Rove et al heard it first via Cheney or other folks inside the administration.

jukeboxgrad

Wind: "show me an official CIA declaration that the niger docs were obvious forgeries before the IAEA did"

Thanks for helping me make my point. There was indeed no official declaration from the CIA or from any of the other several US agencies that had access to the documents. This despite the fact that the hoax was obvious. SSCI (p. 62) says one analyst declared that one of the documents "was so ridiculous that it was 'clearly a forgery.' "

So, as I said, the real mystery is why no senior US intel official was awake enough to listen to the various people saying the documents were forged, since the errors were glaringly obvious. Hmm, let's see, could it have something to do with the fact that all parties knew exactly what Cheney wanted to hear, and exactly what he didn't want to hear? You tell me.

"they sat on it and all that smoke in the sen intel report gives us a glimpse of the coverup..."

You're right about the "coverup" part, but you're wrong if you're pinning it on the CIA. They were only one of several agencies (DIA, NSA and DOE; see SSCI p. 58) that were all given a chance to evaluate these documents. So I ask you again: why did all these agencies acquiesce in a coverup?

"if 'they all gave Cheney what he wanted' as you assert...they are traitors..."

Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, top managers (like Tenet) squelched the analysts who were trying to report the truth. You're right, this is treason. Guess what: Tenet was such a good traitor he was given a medal. I have a feeling that lately he's realizing that loyalty to country trumps loyalty to POTUS, and might therefore have been singing to Fitz.

"imagine yourself on the stand with that defense ... 'we never checked the docs out ...' "

How odd that the Republican-controlled SSCI has seemingly not lifted a finger to ask those analysts the question you and I are discussing: why didn't you check out these documents?

jukeboxgrad

Burbank: "Your PDF Link states 'Press reports claim she was covert...' "

That text appears nowhere in my comment, or in the pdf I cited. Why are you making shit up?

Aside from that, what difference would it make? It would only make a difference if "press reports" were the only basis that Fitz had to think "she was covert." Trouble is, Fitz and Hogan et al are acting as if they have a variety of much better reasons to think she was covert.

Keep trying.

jukeboxgrad

Wind: "what was it 80% for 20% against?"

In Iraq overall, it was 78% for. But the Sunnis rejected it: "In Anbar province, 96 percent voted against the referendum, and 81 percent rejected it in Salahuddin."

The results almost went the other way: "... in Nineveh, 56 percent voted against the constitution -- about 10 percent short of the number necessary to kill it." (link)

Civil war looks more and more inevitable: " 'All the dynamics are pulling the country apart,' Saudi Arabia's foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, said" (link). Then again, I realize you probably know more than he does.

Kim: "The wise Sunni are not supporting the insurgency."

Then I guess there must be a lot of Shiites supporting the insurgency, since "forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified."

jukeboxgrad

Syl: "The NEXT election, where political power is doled out is more important than the words in the constitution that was voted in."

Yes, the "NEXT" milestone is the one that will really matter. Which is exactly what we were told in connection with all the previous milestones (statue falling, end of combat ops, turnover of sovereignty, capture Saddam, etc etc ad nauseum).

"The truth comes out, eventually. That's a very racist remark."

I think Arab anti-Americanism is primarily a matter of religion, culture, politics and economics. Who said anything about race? Hmm, you did. The truth comes out, indeed.

"being anti-American means squat. It's how one acts out that anti-Americanism"

Right. Which is why I said "violently anti-American" instead of just "anti-American." Work on your reading comprehension.

"democracies tend not to cause themselves trouble by allowing their governments to support and send terrorists off to blow up innocents"

As far as I can tell, you're calling Iraq a democracy because they've had a couple of elections. Guess what, Iran has also had some elections. Let us know if you think what's happening in Iran supports your rose-colored theory.

"The insurgency isn't even supported by all Sunni's"

The insurgency is supported by roughly half the country: "Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province."

You're doing a nice job of demonstrating that you're completely impervious to facts.

"The intelligence community thought an actual sales transaction was bogus."

Then why didn't senior officials speak up and say so? Instead we handed the documents to IAEA, creating a major embarrassment for ourselves. We had to admit "we fell for it" (link). How do you explain this?

"The forged documents had no affect on the case for war."

Nonsense. Until they were publicly discredited, the forged documents were in fact a major part of the case for war. This is explained thoroughly here. One indication of this is that we've never seen anything else even remotely resembling solid proof that Saddam sought uranium from Africa, anytime recently.

"her status was therefore classified."

Exactly. I knew you would see the light.

"That does not mean she actually was engaged in covert activity."

It doesn't matter whether or not "she actually was engaged in covert activity." What matters is that the CIA didn't want the world to know that she was a CIA employee. And what also matters is that the White House didn't give a darn about protecting classified information.

"general knowledge of her being CIA prior to the outing"

Since there was allegedly so much "general knowledge," how interesting that not a single source (named or otherwise) has come forward to proclaim that they ever heard such a thing, pre-Novak. Vague hearsay by Cliff May, reported ex post facto, doesn't count.

"What about the rest of it? You know where it also says that no laws may be created that contradict human rights? They've set up a clever boolean construction here."

English translation: they've created a contradiction, kicking a problem down the road.

"you are a waste of time."

Feel free to ignore my comments. If you don't, that's your problem.

jukeboxgrad

hrtshpdbox: "I think it's pretty safe to say that, in general, democrats are less violent than despots."

As far as I can tell, you're calling Iraq a democracy because they've had a couple of elections. Guess what, Iran has also had some elections. Let us know if you think what's happening in Iran supports your rose-colored theory.

cathyf: "Of course it's reasonably likely that Valerie didn't tell Joe anything at all about the memos"

Let's assume for a second that Val did indeed tell Joe about the memos. So what? He had some kind of security clearance. The documents were a forgery that (as Syl is eager to point out) meant nothing (except to the extent they indicate how our government was eager to mislead us). So what's the big deal?

I realize you'd like to equate this with Rove outing an agent. Good luck.

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Wilson/Plame