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October 26, 2005

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jukeboxgrad

"You'll have to forgive Fitz for moving a little slow. He is, after all, doing the work of 535 people."

Creepy, that's one of the funniest (and saddest) things I've read in a long time.

Fitz doesn't mind that the end-game is taking a while. I think it's inspiring all sorts of previously reticent people to sing like birds.

I think Fitz will announce indictments this week, on Friday. I also think the GJ will be extended.

Bad news for Bush. More media coverage. Good news for TM. More traffic.

topsecret: "The problem with the men in black canvassing the neighborhood this late in the game is that it goes contrary to what the left been arguing as it pertains to WH officials."

I think you're assuming that Fitz sent those guys because Fitz is interested in hearing the answers they get. I invite you to consider the possibility that it is simply a very visible and public stunt designed to send a specific message to one or more specific targets, who Fitz is leaning on.

Fitz undoubtedly already knows what the neighbors think.

jukeboxgrad

Clarice: "the implication of his report to Pincus was that he had seen the documents himself"

Only if one is too thick to understand that Wilson might have heard the details from someone else who saw the documents.

Still waiting for the citation which indicates that Wilson claimed he saw the documents. Keep trying.

"he never claimed to Pincus he'd seen the CIA reports and, in fact, he denied to the SSCI that he had"

Exactly. I knew you would finally see the light.

"a position he took even before the SSCI"

Refer me to the part of SSCI which indicates that Wilson ever told them he had personally seen the documents.

"Wilson had to admit he had misspoken"

That word ("misspoken") is getting thrown around a lot, and it is used to create the impression that SSCI said something like "Wilson said that he may have 'misspoken' when he said he had seen the documents."

Trouble is, that's not what SSCI says. It says: "The former ambassador said that he may have 'misspoken' to the reporter when he said he concluded the documents were 'forged.' "

Big difference. As I've said elsewhere, I think Wilson was being cagy to protect a source, the person who gave him early access to detailed information about the documents (as distinct from the documents themselves).

jukeboxgrad

Rick: "Any guess as to how he would have had the transcripts eight months ahead of the 'official' CIA receipt of same?"

I realize the conventional wisdom is that US hands didn't touch the documents until 10/02. This leaves unanswered certain questions, such as the matter of the interesting date of 7/7/2000. This is discussed further here.

Sue: "He didn't say he saw it somewhere else, he said media accounts."

He did refer to IAEA media accounts, but he didn't say he never had any other source of information. As I said, he was being cagy.

clarice

About the MaGuffin--
(a) could be that someone pretending to be a neighbor called to say Plame was in the CIA, that when the FBI interviewed the person with that name and number he denied making the call, and (b) the FBI is still trying to track down people who were at the first home at the time the call was made..(After all the FBI can compare the phone log and the phone records to find out from where the call originated.)

Isn't this fun ...and silly..


Anyone ring Sales yet to see what time tonight the indicments are coming down? LOL

clarice

Nice try juke--but to get to the Bush Lied theme of Wilson's he went further than you know did--He claimed repeatedly that he saw these docs, recognized that they were fraudulent, warned the CIA who warned the VP who ignored his brilliant catch.

Patrick R. Sullivan

'And the very real prospect of obtaining a conviction and not looking like an ass is looming large in The Fitz's mind right now.'

Maybe, maybe not. If he's simply another egomaniacal prosecutor ala Richard Ben Veniste, he's simply circling his kill. If so, he could be the guy who blows up the CIA as we know it.

It wouldn't be hard for an aggressive defendant to expose the CIA for being just another partisan group operating under the aegis of 'intelligence'. I'd suggest anyone indicted immediately file a civil suit against the Wilsons for defamation, and let the discovery begin.

Sue

Jukebox,

You are trying way too hard to vindicate Wilson. He let the impression hang out there that Cheney sent him, until directly confronted. He let the impression hang out there he had seen the documents, until directly confronted. He let the impression hang out there that his wife wasn't involved, until directly confronted. He shopped his story around, by his own admission, until someone bit. He then wrote his own op-ed that has been debunked time and again. If Libby/Rove, et al are indicted, I hope Mr. Wilson has his story together for the next round. He won't get to tell his story without being challenged, by high priced defense lawyers. If I were Mr. Wilson, I would hope this all went away and I had saved some of my money I made off of it, instead of blowing it on bling-bling.

BurkettHead

It makes a substantial difference under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act if the neighbors knew Pflame worked for the CIA. For a conviction under the Act, Fitz must prove that the U.S. was taking "taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert
agent's intelligence relationship to the United States" (see 50 USC Section 421 - http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/50/chapters/15/subchapters/iv/sections/section_421.html ).

It could also be necessary to prove that the person indicted learned that Pflame was covert through classified information, rather than throough the cocktail circuit or the DC rumor mill("as a result of having authorized access to classified
information, learns the identify of a covert agent and
intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert
agent" Subsection 421(b)).

If the Wilsons were blabbing to their neighbors that Pflame worked for the CIA, then astute defense counsel would argue that (1) the US was not taking affirmative steps to conceal Pflame's covert status, in permitting Plame, or Wilson, her agent, to disclose her status, or by failing to take the necessary steps to keep the Wilsons from diclosinub her status' and (2) that it should not be criminal for those indicted to disclose what the Wilsons had already disclosed (kind of an equitable variation of #1).

Under 50 USC Section 426:
(4) The term ''covert agent'' means -
(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an
intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed
Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency -
(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member
is classified information, and
(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within
the last five years served outside the United States; or
(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship
to the United States is classified information, and -
(i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an
agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance
to, an intelligence agency, or
(ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an
agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or
foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation; or
(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose
past or present intelligence relationship to the United States
is classified information and who is a present or former agent
of, or a present or former informant or source of operational
assistance to, an intelligence agency.

Sue

Plus keep in mind Mr. Wilson had to write a letter to the SSIC to 'correct' some things that just didn't jive with the facts. Mr. Wilson has problems, especially if he is cross-examined, and he will be.

BurkettHead

The FBI wouldn't ask the neighbors if they knew Pflame was a "covert agent" or a NOC. "Covert agent" is defined under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Whether she's covert or not involves legal iconclusions and factual issues the neighbors would not know.

I'm not sure I'd read too much into the FBI questioning neighbors again at this point. Fitz seems to be very thorough (seems like he played Miller & Libby very well - I don't understand why he limited Miller's testimony, but hopefully, that will be clear in his report). He knows there will be a lot of howling (not to mention 2nd, 3rd & then some guessing) if he indicts people or if he doesn't. He wants to make sure that his report is thorough and he hasn't left anything out. Seems like he also wanted to keep the grand jury open and rattle everything & everyone he could just in case someone wanted to come in & "correct" their testimony or testify to anything they suddenly "remembered" at the last moment.

topsecretk9

Sorry, this is probably covered ground, but Wilson said this to Matt Cooper:

"Wilson says a report by Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, the American ambassador to Niger, addresses the issue of Nigerian government officials disputing the allegation."

A-How would Wilson know what Kirkpatricks report said one way or the other if it is classified

B- I thought the the Owen-Kirkpatrick report did not definitively say this--but maybe not??

BurkettHead

"A-How would Wilson know what Kirkpatricks report said one way or the other if it is classified"

Think maybe Pflame was feeding Joe Wilson classified information? Think maybe the Wiulsons were feeding classified information to the Kerry campaign? Think maybe Wilson knew more about those forged documents than he read in the press or the IAEA reports?

topsecretk9

Burk--

Oh I am sure of it, but I was surprised to see yet another glaring example of Joe Wilson's cavalier attitude towards classified information that he is not supposed to have seen.

In other-words another example of a "misspeak."

DirtyName

'And the very real prospect of obtaining a conviction and not looking like an ass is looming large in The Fitz's mind right now.'

"Maybe, maybe not. If he's simply another egomaniacal prosecutor ala Richard Ben Veniste, he's simply circling his kill. If so, he could be the guy who blows up the CIA as we know it.

It wouldn't be hard for an aggressive defendant to expose the CIA for being just another partisan group operating under the aegis of 'intelligence'. I'd suggest anyone indicted immediately file a civil suit against the Wilsons for defamation, and let the discovery begin."

Excellent points all around. All the more reason The Fitz doesn't want to bring an indictment that he can't convict on. He surely is smart enough to see the points you just raised.

I believe your point is the REAL story in the case - if Rove or Libby or someone higher is indicted, the Bush Administration might wage an all-out war on CIA and the prosecutors office...

The appointment of Porter Goss might have a whole new significance under this scenario.

Bush vs. CIA What an awesome show it will be.

clarice

LEFTIES!! Any new hot news from Johnson/Sales/ Josh Marshall/Kos...?

22 indictments--Didn't happen
Libby indictment tonight? Didn't happen.

Surely you aren't letting these things dash you hopes..

BTW CBS says Fitz's meeting with Hogan was NOT a request for an extension.

clarice

DN, Do you suppose the thought of having to reveal so much classified information for such a ridiculous case doesn't weigh on Fitz' mind? I mean we've let spies off rather than do that.

Rick Ballard

"Bush vs. CIA What an awesome show it will be."

Not necessarily. I doubt that an indictment would speed up or slow down the Goss purge at Langley. That die was cast some time ago. We can only hope that not much good was disposed of when the rubbish was put out.

Public Citizen

Does anyone think there is a real possibility that the Wilsons and three of Mrs. Wilson's colleagues are the subjects of the one to five indictments we are hearing about? That would cause the MSM to have a collective stroke. Should such an outcome be realized, would you think the MSM would just bury the story?

!

There's nothing wrong with an honest government; there's something wrong with a dishonest one.

Wash and Rinse then pass it along.

Rick Ballard

Public Citizen,

The WaPo will follow the story - maybe assign it to Sue Schmidt. The complete occipital-coccyx fusion makes any attempt at a rectocraniostomy problematical for the NYT. It's better that it be left to expire peacefully. Given its delusional state, it would be unkind to expect any change.

Expect an Emily Litella response from the rest of the Demsm and wear earplugs until the Kossacks and DUers stop screaming. It won't be any worse than an obnoxious toddler's fit.

Beto Ochoa

This entire affair was initiated, orchestrated and executed by the Wilsons. They had help from CIA elements that specialize in dirty tricks. Elements that found themselves out of favor in a Republican Administration. Elements that would do anything to discredit said administration. It was done for a single minded purpose of damaging this administration with the added reward of great celebrity in the cottage industry left wing republican bashing that sells so well to it's captive audience. Write a book or tell a tale that bashes this President or the people around him and you are guaranteed major news segments, scads of greenbacks and the eternal praise of the "progressives". Then add the bonus of spin, smoke and cover fire from your MSM promoters and it becomes a "Slam Dunk".

Mainstream America

Who gives a fuck? Bush is in the clear no matter what. Don't worry lefty's (aka America Killers), Bush will be out office in January....2009!!!! Suckers!!!!!

clarice

Rick, I think it interesting re the Wash Po that after Schmidt wrote the only honest piece on the SSCI report, she was assigned to cover little if anything on this, and Pincus after he was intimately involved--his piece was even cited as evidence by the SSCI--was allowed to continue to report on it.

And only days ago--almost 2 1/2 years after he touted Wilson's lies as credible did he (weasely and incompletely) admit Wilson was not terribly credible. PHEH

But you're right they can back off and the NYT cannot.

Jim E.

Beto Ochoa,
You cut-and-pasted your own ridiculous comment from weeks ago and reposted it again. It wasn't readable the first time, so why bother?

jukeboxgrad

Trained: "Given the misperception betrayed by Fitzgerald's quote above"

Since Fitz has many more critical facts at his disposal than you do, I'd like to invite you to consider the possiblity that the "misperception" is yours, not his.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

Syl: "So Josh is wrong on that one."

I wonder if you could be so kind as to cite the portion of the Butler report which demonstrates that "Josh is wrong on that one."

"That was at the very beginning [Fitz 'whistle-blower' quote]! He hadn't even started yet."

He was quoted saying that in WaPo, 6/30/05.

Are you referring to an earlier citation for this quote?

"Dont' worry about the forgeries so much. They really are meaningless."

If they were knowingly used to try to promote the war, they are far from "meaningless."

"the intelligence reports felt it was highly likely that Saddam was shopping around for yellowcake."

Really? I guess that's why the classified NIE included this statement (which was hidden from the public and most of Congress until long after Congress voted on the war): "the claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are, in INR's assessment, highly dubious."

"But they had no affect on the case for war."

I guess you're in a position to prove that there wasn't even an _attempt_ to use them to influence "the case for war."

jukeboxgrad

Dirty: "unless The Fitz has a smoking gun to prove that Rove/Libby willingly outed a known covert operative"

It doesn't matter whether or not Rove et al knew she was covert. SF-312 indicates that if he wasn't sure, he had a duty to check first. (I think that perhaps I disagree with Geek on this point.)

Clarice: "He claimed repeatedly that he saw these docs"

Speaking of repeated claims, that's exactly what you're doing. A little proof would be nice.

"after Schmidt wrote the only honest piece on the SSCI report"

I guess you mean the article where she initially couldn't tell the difference between Iraq and Iran.

Patrick: "I'd suggest anyone indicted immediately file a civil suit against the Wilsons for defamation"

The hurdle for defamation against public figures is very, very high. Among other things, you have to prove that the defendant made false statements and you have to prove the defendant knew the statements were false. Good luck.

jukeboxgrad

Sue: "He let the impression hang out there ... "

In other words, you want to make Wilson responsible for the way various miscellaneous journalists might have quoted, misquoted or paraphrased him. Let me know when you're willing to apply the same standard to Bush.

"He then wrote his own op-ed that has been debunked time and again."

The so-called debunking you're talking about "has been debunked time and time again."

Burkett: "Think maybe Wilson knew more about those forged documents than he read in the press or the IAEA reports?"

That's exactly what I said several days ago, here.

Seven Machos

Jukemeister: No one is going to get indicted for any underlying crimes, other than piddling stuff like "mishanding classified information." This is Bill Clinton/Martha all the way, for Wilson and Plame and Scooter and KKKKKKKarl. Sorry. All your words (and they are way too many) won't change this.

I'll send you $20 if ANYBODY receives a stiffer sentence than Clinton's NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR recently recieved for far more serious crimes.

Rick Ballard

Clarice,

The NYT will turn when the Sulzberger family brings in a little moose and puts it on the desk of Pench or Paunch or whatever the hell they call him while security watches him clean up and get out. He's not going to be allowed to strangle that golden goose much longer. He and Keller are both pathetic businessmen.

The WaPo rolled over and begged the WH to start scratching its tummy again by jerking that jerk Milbank off the WH beat. I'd bet he wrote 90% of the "throw Joe from the train" piece while someone held a gun to Pincus' head as they added his byline. Milbank would have done it in the hope that someone above the grade of G-6 in government would talk to him again. The janitorial beat isn't that exciting.

clarice

Oh Brother! Bryan York was on Hannity and Colmes tonight (God is that a horrid show) and said he went and interviewed the Wilson/Plame neighbors and they said they were not being reinterviewed, that the other night is the FIRST time the FBI had ever interviewed them.........

windansea

This entire affair was initiated, orchestrated and executed by the Wilsons. They had help from CIA elements that specialize in dirty tricks.

Like the unamed former CIA agent in Seymour Hersh's article, I keep wondering why the CIA (most likely WINPAC or CPD) had the niger docs for at least 3 months (oct 02) without making a report that they were obvious forgeries. The agent in Hersh's story said “Somebody deliberately let something false get in there.”

“The agency guys were so pissed at Cheney,” the former officer said. “They said, ‘O.K, we’re going to put the bite on these guys.’

“Everyone was bragging about it—‘Here’s what we did. It was cool, cool, cool.’

“They thought it’d be bought at lower levels—a big bluff.” The thinking, he said, was that the documents would be endorsed by Iraq hawks at the top of the Bush Administration, who would be unable to resist flaunting them at a press conference or an interagency government meeting. They would then look foolish when intelligence officials pointed out that they were obvious fakes.

He said that the F.B.I. agents assigned to the case are putting a great deal of effort into the investigation. But “somebody’s hiding something, and they’re hiding it pretty well.”

anyway something smells and I hope Fitz or the FBI get to the bottom of it. The info I've seen is that CIA got the documents in Oct 02, Bush made his famous "16 word" SOTU address January 03. the IAEA release their report proving the docs were fake in March 03 and supposedly their expert needed only 6 hours to prove them false.

Why did the CIA do nothing?

Ironically, the left coaster agrees with me.

it is indeed strange that the CIA, which ostensibly received what were supposed to be authentic validations of claims almost identical to what they had been hearing for almost a year from the foreign intelligence service (FIS-A), did not even think these were worth looking into or reviewing, considering that these documents might have given them the firm documentary proof in their own hands for the "uranium from Africa" claim. (Remember, the CIA kept claiming that they did not know the documents were forgeries until after the IAEA exposed them in March 2003.)

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/005825.php


TexasToast

The palpable fear of the right is something to experience - to savor. But it appears our righteys don't believe in stirred, not shaken. As the laser approaches, "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

Unfortunately, this isn't a movie.

demosthenes

Why isn't Joe Wilson being prosecuted for lying to the U.S. Senate??

-demosthenes

clarice

Fear? I'm just dying for the next wave of predictions from you guys..LOL

ordi

CBS says Fitz's meeting with Hogan was NOT a request for an extension.

Just a thought,

Maybe Fitz was asking to release a "Report" because they will be No indictments.

windansea

The second is that NATO sources have confirmed to United Press International that Fitzgerald's team of investigators has sought and obtained documentation on the forgeries from the Italian government.

Fitzgerald's team has been given the full, and as yet unpublished report of the Italian parliamentary inquiry into the affair, which started when an Italian journalist obtained documents that appeared to show officials of the government of Niger helping to supply the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein with Yellowcake uranium.

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20051023-104217-9679r

TexasToast

Fix

Geek, Esq.

It doesn't matter whether or not Rove et al knew she was covert. SF-312 indicates that if he wasn't sure, he had a duty to check first. (I think that perhaps I disagree with Geek on this point.)

If I were bringing a criminal case, I'd want more than that. Especially if my target is The Prince.

SteveMG

TexasToast:
"The palpable fear of the right is something to experience"

Huh? A few posters on this bloq equals "the palpable fear of (sic) the right"? What was that about strawmen, Toast?

How about "the pulsating glee on the left is something to experience"?

And I'm not talking about the elections in Iraq either. My guess is that the left will be more happy if it's announced that Rove was indicted than they would be if bin Laden was captured.

Really, they need to figure out whether they want to defeat the terrorists or whether they want to defeat the neocons. I guess they see the necons as evil but don't want to use such simplistic labels on radical Islamic terrorists.

BTW, were you a supporter of Scowcroftian realpolitik before January 2001? My thought was always that the left (yes, not everyone) viewed American realpolitik, especially during the Cold War, as immoral policy-making.

Times do change.

SMG

Keith

Well said, Steve.

clarice

Ordi--IIRC and I think I do Toensing who DOES know what she's talking about says no report can be made and no judge can order one.(People keep confusing this SP with the old Independent prosecutor. But this is really like a regular prosecution in which the notion of a report based on the one-sided sans counsel proceedings --is deemed inappropriate.

cathyf
Are you talking about the IIPA or the Espionage Act? The IIPA doesn't require a showing of harm, while the Espionage Act only requires that the defendant "have reason to believe" that the providing of the information in question could harm the US or help a foreign nation..
The IIPA requires that the agent have been out of the country spying within 5 years; Plame came home in "early 1997." (If they are claiming that she has been a spy and hasn't left the US since early 1997 then Plame and her bosses are going to do hard time for domestic spying.)

As for the Espionage Act, "have reason to believe" is going to fail on reasonableness. If Hawley didn't "have reason to believe" that she was NOC before blabbing to Novak, and preventing the publication of the identities of covert agents is a central part of his job description, then no one in any other job will be held to a higher standard than that.

cathy :-)

Rick Ballard

Windandsea,

I keep wondering why no one talks of Joey's time as ambassador to Gabon - which supplies uranium to France for use as fuel. Everyone says that the Congo's uranium production is shut down but Gabon's is not. Could the Niger docs be a misdirectional move on France's part to draw attention from Gabon? COGEMAR (French) owns mines in both Niger and Gabon - were they the company that sold uranium to Iraq in the early eighties?

ordi

Clarice,

Yes, I know a report is not NORMALLY produced. However, IIRC I read somewhere that a Judge could authorize one in unusual situations. It is highly irregular but it can be done. Heck, it was just a thought.

TexasToast

Ahhhh, SMG

Allow me a moment of glee in the face of Clarice and Rick and Top and others who seem to have lost touch with reality.

As for me, I have always believed in realpolitik. We have interests, and they trump all this hooey about "democratization". In real political terms, we grabbed control of the oilfields, nothing more, and nothing less.

There were other ways to do this, but these guys thought that military force was the only way.

200? and counting. A constitution with no support in the Sunni areas harboring and supporting the insurgency. When is the next troop rotation?

!

Windansea,

Your timeline above pertaining to the forged documents is incomplete.
In Oct. '02, the time you give for the CIA obtaining the documents, the President gave a speech in Ohio where he wanted to cite the allegations that Hussein attempted to acquire uranium, etc., etc.
The CIA's feathers got ruffled when the early drafts of that speech where shown to them. So, the reference was excluded.
Then in Jan. '03 in the SOTU, the claim became the '16 words' of which we are all familiar.
The CIA's feathers got ruffled again on the inclusion of the allegation in the SOTU, even though it cited the British Gov't citing "reports". It was the same allegation that the Brit Intelligence was saying to be true; based on the forged docs.

As for Scrowcroft and liberals rejoicing:
Isn't Scowcroft one of the "grown-ups" which were so cited as more worthy than Democratic baby boomers. Consider the liberals rejoicing as appreciating watching someone else's parents fight.
As a follow up: Powell didn't cite the Iraq/Niger falsehood to the UN and Hadley took the fall after Tenet admitted Wilson was right that the Iraq/Niger claim was wrong. Powell: Feb. '03; Tenet: July '03.

topsecretk9

Huh, whats that...did a member of the minority party say I've lost touch with reality?

cathyf
As I've said elsewhere, I think Wilson was being cagy to protect a source, the person who gave him early access to detailed information about the documents (as distinct from the documents themselves).
In other words, to protect the person who violated all sorts of laws and committed all sorts of firing offenses. If Plame told Wilson what was in the forged documents while they were still classified, it's 10 years in prison for her.

cathy :-)

TexasToast

SMG
PS

You were right about the Sox

Where should I send the money?

clarice

Rick--that was my thought about the Pincus Milbank walking back the cat piece--But I think Milbank got out of the WH shithouse when he wrote the Conyers Playhouse Hearings. (I'd have let him back in the front door after that.)%^)

SteveMG

TexasToast:
Fair point, it hasn't been a very good century so far for your side.

Enjoy.

One small but importat caveat: indictments have consequences but ideas have more of them. When your side figures out which way you want to take the nation, send the rest of us a wakeup call.

Re realpolitik: Ugh, Scowcroft's main point was that, I'm paraphrasing, that it's kept the peace in the Middle East for 50 years.

That's a fair summary, I think.

I guess he missed the Seven Day War, the Intifadas, the Iran-Iraq War, the Kuwait War, the Gulf War, the Egyptian war.

If the root causes (some of them) of radicalism in the Islamic world were unjust systems, shouldn't we try to reform those systems? The Islamists appeal to the suffering in the Islamic world by blaming the Jews or the West for their plight, for supporting corrupt regimes.

Some truth in that.

How will realpolitik mitigate that problem?

Yes, solve the problem of Islamic terrorism and the unjust Middle East order right here in less than 50 words.

Not too difficult.

SMG

topsecretk9

Do you think TM's site gets hanky cause of the volume of comments? Should we beg for an open thread post?

Rick Ballard

TSK9,

Well, I'm certainly not in touch with the Alterman Reality - only special people with special needs are and I just don't qualify.

pollyusa

jukeboxgrad

I highly recommend this post from "The Ministry of Minor Perfidy" regarding Wilson and the forged documents.

The first interesting point made is that in the SSCI only two actual words spoken by Wilson are shown the the section that details Wilson and the forged documents. The rest of the narrative was provided by the Seante Committee.

Second, the report from the CIA was issued on 2/5/02 and was likely discussed at the 2/19/02 meeting Wilson attended with CIA, INR, and DOD officials.

Per the Senate report, page 37, the second CIA report was issued on February 5, 2002. This second report “provided what was said to be the ‘verbatim text’ of the accord”. In other words, the second report contained the alleged contract between Iraq and Niger.

cathyf
...no report can be made and no judge can order one.(People keep confusing this SP with the old Independent prosecutor. But this is really like a regular prosecution in which the notion of a report based on the one-sided sans counsel proceedings --is deemed inappropriate.
Well you are right that all sorts of folks who should know better are solemnly pronouncing that they will wait for the indictments or "report." But it is certainly imaginable that Fitzgerald could write a hypothetical law review sort of article which would serve as a justification of his decisions. He could say things like, "The IIPA requires the person to be out of the country spying within 5 years, and requires the CIA to be actively protecting the person's identity." This is a statement of fact and legal analysis; the unstated but strong implication would be, "we investigated, and the situation failed the statutory test on those two issues."

Something like that might be in the offing, and it wouldn't endanger GJ secrecy...

cathy :-)

topsecretk9

Rick
We have interests, and they trump all this hooey about "democratization"

Interests are ...the demise of Rove and Libby, Iraq, Bush, the "little cabal" comprised of the Vice President and the Secretary of Defense, Condi, Delay, all NeoCons including Michael Leeden, Bob Bennett, Judith Miller, Jeff Gannon, Michael Steele, Israel...have I forgotten anyone?

topsecretk9

Any other interests anyone can think of off the top?

Geek, Esq.

Interesting news.

Well, news has just reached TWN that Patrick Fitzgerald is expanding not only into a new website -- but also into more office space.

Fitzgerald's office is at 1400 New York Avenue, NW, 9th Floor in Washington.

What I have learned is that the Office of the Special Counsel has signed a lease this week for expanded office space across the street at 1401 New York Avenue, NW.

Another coincidence? More office space needed to shut down the operation?

Beto Ochoa

et al,
I’ve made my allegations for months. Not because I have any empirical evidence but drawn on my family's generations of ties to our "System" and as a seasoned person of interest, it’s the only scenario that ties all its ends.
Now there are investigators poking around this very assertion as late as this week? Wait.
windansea,
Usted está muy perceptive y bien leído. Usted entiende mi verdad.
Tu soy amigo

jukeboxgrad

windansea: "I keep wondering why the CIA (most likely WINPAC or CPD) had the niger docs for at least 3 months (oct 02) without making a report that they were obvious forgeries"

I guess you're still not getting it. A whole slew of agencies had these documents, not just CIA. And it's not like no one realized they were forged. Various people questioned the documents (including at least one person cited in SSCI, p. 62). But top management wasn't listening. The real mystery is why no senior US intel official was awake enough to listen to the various people saying the documents were forged, since the errors were glaringly obvious. Hmm, let's see, could it have something to do with the fact that all parties knew exactly what Cheney wanted to hear, and exactly what he didn't want to hear?

Geek: "If I were bringing a criminal case, I'd want more than that. Especially if my target is The Prince."

I see your point. I realize Fitz wants more than that, and I'm sure he has more than that. But that's still not a reason to overlook what's called for by SF-312.

cathyf: "If Plame told Wilson what was in the forged documents while they were still classified, it's 10 years in prison for her."

It might help if you cross all your fingers and all your toes.

SMG: "he missed the Seven Day War, the Intifadas, the Iran-Iraq War, the Kuwait War, the Gulf War, the Egyptian war."

Let us know which of those events cost us about 17,000 US casualties. By the way, I think you added a day to the Six-Day War. On the seventh day, the Lord rested.

"If the root causes (some of them) of radicalism in the Islamic world were unjust systems, shouldn't we try to reform those systems?"

Show us the examples of democracy being spread successully via the barrel of a gun. Also, maybe you can explain why you're confident democratic Arab regimes won't be as violently anti-American as despotic Arab regimes.

!

"it’s the *only scenario* that ties all its ends."
are you forgetting the aspect that this, the whole shebang, is in the courts not just in the political arena and in the media.

topsecretk9

You know what, on second thought that statement just pisses me off

We have interests, and they trump all this hooey about "democratization"

Some snotty ass punk, sitting at his computer, sipping a mountain dew wearing doc marten and peta shirt has the gull to type such an ignorant statement.

Freedom is the most fundamental desire of every creature on this earth. Who are you to decide who worthy of that? You have the right to call your President Hitler!!

For you to mock, and belittle and by proxy support oppression is the ultimate in arrogant. Who want to live in a reality that includes denying or excusing the malevolent acts of Saddam and his regime?

Texas you can come here and if you don't like what you read tell me to f-off, but don't pretend that you are some noble person because you say so.

clarice

Geek,Esq..What about just more nonsense from the left?

clarice

Tp, Bless your heart..

kim

Well, JBG, Germany and Japan, are two examples of democracy spread by a gun. If you call Japan a democracy.
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topsecretk9

thank you Clarice

Rick Ballard

juke,

I know it's very fashionable to not give a damn or count the Iraqis alive today because Saddam isn't in power in Baghdad but some of us do. And the majority of the electorate was satisfied with the course of the war on the first Tuesday in November in '04 despite the best efforts of you Copperheads.

But keep shoveling 'cause every shovel you sling just stiffens the resolve of the majority. Trusting your side with anything more than running a candy store would be suicide.

Democracies via the barrel of a gun - Japan for a start, the Phillipines, South Korea, Singapore, the United States, Mexico - it's really rather a long list.

All we ask is that you give war a chance.

arrowhead

Washington Post - Thursday am
"Even as Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald wrapped up his case, the legal team of White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove has been engaged in a furious effort to convince the prosecutor that Rove did not commit perjury during the course of the investigation, according to people close to the aide. The sources, who indicated that the effort intensified in recent weeks, said Rove still did not know last night whether he would be indicted."

SteveMG

"What I have learned is that the Office of the Special Counsel has signed a lease this week for expanded office space across the street at 1401 New York Avenue, NW."

Oh, great.

Anyone want to bet that he'll still be there during the Chelsea Clinton Administration in 2025?

Not to excuse in any way any illegality by Rove, Libby et al. - and I've predicted here indictments for them and also Fleischer (less sure about him) - but this has always been the problem with the special prosecutors. They go on and on and on. . .

And reportedly Fitzgerald will charge officials with "violating Wilson's civil rights"? Give me a break.

I thought we all recognized this after the Starr mess but as Doc Johnson once said, men need reminding more than they need being informed.

BurbankErnie

Gee, another dead on report in the WaPost.
They along with the other Rags and Media outlets have guessed wrong on the entire Plame case, from Indictments to aanouncements.

So good of you to post that Jim. I am sure that will ruffle our feathers.

Jacques Zeekock

I just had "back door" sex with Vicky Flame and it wasn't a pleasant experience...Joe was in the corner wacking off the entire time demanding Bush's impeachment.

jukeboxgrad

pollyusa: "I highly recommend ... "

Excellent points, which I had mostly missed. You're way ahead of me. Thank you.

topsecret: "Freedom is the most fundamental desire of every creature on this earth"

I guess that includes our freedom to turn Iraq into a battlefield even though 82% of them want us out.

By the way, I've seen some interesting research (sorry no cite handy) about how in certain cultures justice is considered a much higher value than freedom. Hopefully they are not mutually exclusive, but they are not the same thing.

I have a feeling Arabs in Iraq and elsewhere are currently not that impressed by the American concept of justice, as it appears through their eyes.

Anyway, I realize you have the freedom to declare that what is important to you is equally important to the rest of the human race. But you declaring it doesn't make it so.

"don't pretend that you are some noble person because you say so"

Don't pretend that you are some noble person because you're willing to hold a gun to someone's head and tell them you know what's good for them.

kim: "Germany and Japan, are two examples of democracy spread by a gun"

They were both democracies (albeit imperfectly so) before we got there. Hitler was elected. Keep trying.

Aside from that, there are numerous other problems with your analogy.

Jim's Dick

Washington Post - Thursday PM
"Even as Jim stroked his bone, the legal team of White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove has been engaged in a restful night's snooze... Jim's dick was not."

arrowhead

Burbank - I just put it out there for people to comment on. As you say, the media have guessed wrong on the Plame case so far. I suspect that this WaPo report is more of the same.

Joey Busdriver

I know it's obvious, but jukebox rode the short bus to school. He always mumbled "why do all the girls laugh at me?"

kim

JBG. Sure Hitler was elected. Was he in charge of a democracy? Don't be disingenuous. It's unbecoming.
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bob

It's clear that Rove and Libby are guilty. If Fitzgerald doesn't recognize that, then he is going to have some "problems" in the future. You can take that to the bank!

clarice

Wait--I thought the indictments were already a done deal, sealed, and the targets notified..or was that yesterday's news?

Rick Ballard

Iraq was also a "democracy" under Hussein - do you have a point?

ordi

An interesting tidbit in the WAPO article


(Quote)Should he need more time to finish the investigation, Fitzgerald could seek to empanel a new group of grand jurors to consider the case. But sources familiar with the prosecutor's work said he has indicated he is eager to avoid that route. The term of the current grand jury has been extended once and cannot be lengthened again, according to federal rules.(Quote)

kim

Oh my God, don't tell me Stalin was elected!
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arrowhead

JD - I guess I have to qualify anything I post so as not to incur the wrath of the blogsters.

The Washington Post and others have been putting out a variation on the "Rove to be indicted" theme for days now. For the record, based on what I've read I do NOT believe Rove should be indicted.

jukeboxgrad

Rick: "every shovel you sling just stiffens the resolve of the majority"

I guess that's why WSJ reported yesterday that "a majority of Americans (53%) feels that military action in Iraq was the wrong thing to do." You have a curious way of defining "majority."

Kim: "Don't be disingenuous. It's unbecoming."

Don't be unbecoming. It's disingenuous.

Rick Ballard

Kim,

Of course he was - do you have a problem with that tovarisch?

kim

Another democracy spread through the barrel of a gun? Why some little upstart in the colonies which models its name after those fierce renegades of the low countries, the United States.
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Rick Ballard

"You have a curious way of defining "majority.""

No I don't. Wait 'til the first Tuesday in November '06 and you'll see it defined in the only way it counts again.

kim

Now the Swiss preceded guns. Crossbows, they had. And mountain passes.

Iceland grew their democracy without arms, I think, and their isolation was effective defense.
===================================================

kim

Is JBG becoming ingenious? That last sally was.
===========================

ordi

If the majority of Americans were not feed "NEWS" from the alphabet channels etc... they would understand that military action in Iraq IS the CORRECT thing to do.

IMO, 47% understanding what it is all about after all the negative isn't too damn bad. 53% is not a big victory.

topsecretk9

Byron York interviewed the same 2 flacks in Wilson's neighborhood who say they didn't know she was CIA, but the interesting thing is this it's first time not second...they were suprised and shocked it took so long...Fitz what took ya so long?

Geek, Esq.

They were both democracies (albeit imperfectly so) before we got there. Hitler was elected. Keep trying.

Actually, Hitler was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg.

Germany and Japan were military dictatorships before US troops entered their territories.

Now, had you stated that they were advanced, industrialized nations with well-developed civil society, you'd have been on to something.

topsecretk9

Is Syl around? I want to throw something at his conspiracy theory, or Syl, did you explain to earlier you changed it?

ordi

Top,

My take is Fitz already knew she was not covert so he did not need further proof. He was just dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's.

kim

Those men in black investigating Plame's neighborhood were looking for a lost cat.
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windansea

!!!!

Thanks for the info on the CIA ruffled feathers...my main question is why did they wait for the IAEA to say the niger docs were forgeries...they were debunked in 6 hours by IAEA...CIA had them for at least 6 months before IAEA report..

have you read the Sen intel report on this re WINPAC?

oops we lost them

controlling agent on leave

4 agents at meeting don't remember getting copies

"she" doesn't recall where they came from

copy found in CPD safe

that's not smoke Mr SP

those are glowing embers

I saw Larry Johnson with Blitz today....he looked like he was selling time share

Rick Ballard

Ordi,

Check - "Neighbors report that no investigators ever asked anything about the Wilsons to establish Valerie's covert status."

Dotting i's and crossing t's.

kim

Ashcroft should have sent my dog after the trail. He investigates as thoroughly if not as silently as Fitz. He can prosecute. He'd have been appropriate for this case because he is sort of a bull dog. He reminds me of Muggs. Nobody knows exactly what is the matter with him. I think it's because he knows he's sub-human, and it grates.
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ArminTamzarian

Now, had you stated that they were advanced, industrialized nations with well-developed civil society, you'd have been on to something.

Well, they really weren't, but who cares, right?

topsecretk9

Who would most benefit from a last minute check of the neighborhood?...better Question, Whose case would it matter if 0, 2 or 10 neighbors knew Valerie was CIA?

kim

Ashcroft should have sent my dog after the trail. He investigates as thoroughly if not as silently as Fitz. He can prosecute. He'd have been appropriate for this case because he is sort of a bull dog. He reminds me of Muggs. Nobody knows exactly what is the matter with him. I think it's because he knows he's sub-human, and it grates.
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Wilson/Plame