Fight Or Plead?

Should Karl Rove take a plea deal, or (if indicted) resign and fight?

Clearly this is subject to the *enormous caveat* that we don't know what other evidence Fitzgerald has developed.

However, let's stipulate that what we have seen represents the outline of the case against Rove, and that there is no ghastly smoking gun memo or "I want Wilson's wife fired" meeting.

So, should Karl Rove (a) take a plea deal to something like perjury or obstruction and resign in disgrace, or (b) resign and go to trial against charges of perjury, obstruction, and conspiracy to mishandle classified information?

I am interested in hearing the voice of  the people on this.  Possible answers might include:

(1)  Take a plea and save the White House an embarrassing side show.

(2)  Fight like a tiger and win!  The Republicans will actually rally their base by forcing this over-reaching prosecutor.

(3)  Fight, with nothing to lose - just make sure Bush can pardon you on his way out the door.

Vox populi.

Comments

[mcg]

Give 'em hell,
Give 'em hell,
Fight, fight, fight!
Side show be damned, I say,
Prove that Rove was right!
Go-o-o-o-o-o Rove!

[flackcatcher]

No question Tom, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT.(No bold, fear the bold) For us, it would be the only way to find out what really happened. Besides, seeing Judy, Tim, Nick, Walter and the rest on the stand sweating, that alone would be worth it.(Looking foward to all those Perry Mason moments.)

[Grand Juror #8]

Since it's not my *ss on the line, if Rove is indicted he should fight. I want to see what comes out at trail about this entire fiasco. If Fitz has no smoking gun memo and is relying on these forgetful reporters, chances of proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt seems slim. Plus, if perjury/obstruction is due to the Cooper call, Rove came forward with that on his own. Finally, as you mentioned, Bush will pardon him anyway (at least by Jan 2009). So I go with your #2 and #3 choices.

However, I do not think Rove will be indicted. His first contacts in this seem relatively late in the game. I would think if anyone has a problem, it would be Libby. But, I don't care what Libby does. Let's face it, for the left, Rove is the grand prize Cadillac...Libby is the set of steak knives.

[Seven Machos]

If Rove is indicted, he should fight and he will. If Libby is indicted, it's up to him. If I were him, I'd just cop a plea.

I don't think Rove will be indicted. I have been wavering on Scooter. I wonder how many more column inches Scooter -- let alone Rove, God forbid -- would get for copping a plea than CLINTON'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR WHO STOLE ACTUAL, TOP-SECRET CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.

[creepy dude]

Rove certainly talked a big Option 2 game this summer when he telegraphed his strategy. I still recall those halycon days:

“Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers.” Conservatives, he said, “saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war,” firebreathed our little pudgebull.

Too bad they spent more time warring against Wilson than Osama-bin-forgotten. In any event, Rove certainly has been mum lately. No more fire-breathing. Which means he has orders from the top to slink offstage a la Option 1.

[clarice]

Heh! And the other witnesses have been chatting? Miller was forced to write a story by the paper according to her lawyer today. She didn't want to. Cooper's story was wee, and a big backtrack from his original story. We've heard nothing at all from some witnesses--like Tenet.

Casting entrails,cd.

[Bill Arnold]

Seven Machos, "Rove indicted on or before December 31st 2005" is selling for 60-65 gets you 100 on Tradesports/InTrade, so there is opportunity for a rather high ROI if you're sure that Rove will not be indicted. And what's with the all-caps? Looks like Clinton Derangement Syndrome to me. :-)

[Seven Machos]

Gee, Creepy Dude, what if Rove didn't break the law? Or what if he did? Does the legal analysis factor into what you should happen, you know, at all?

Bill -- I stand athwart the italics and bold functions on these threads, yelling stop.

[creepy dude]

"what if Rove didn't break the law?"

Option 4: he'll follow OJ's lead and devote his life to tracking down the real leakers.

[CaseyL]

Oh, I definitely want Rove to fight.

I want him to get up on the witness stand and talk about how ginning up a case for war and outing a CIA operative because her husband dared question the ginned-up evidence is "just politics," while the families and friends and coworkers and Congressional representatives of the 2000 dead and 40,000 maimed are watching.

I want the GOP leadership and the Limbaughs and Fox commentators and the rest of the conservative punditariat to bloviate about out-of-control prosecutors and partisan politics while Odom and Whittacker and Scowcroft are telling the American people that the Iraq war was the biggest strategic blunder in US history and Rumsfeld is "quite literally mad" and Cheney is a "dangerous, vindictive monomaniac."

I want Rove's testimony on the witness stand, esp. the cross-examination by Fitzgerald, to run on CSPAN and every network and every newspaper, every radio station and every blog.

I want wall to wall coverage so the American people can see the towering, stinking, moral and intellectual rot that is the Bush Administration and the GOP.

[anon]

And you know Casey (a Balloon Juice inmate!),
the Evil One will still probably beat the rap.

No Fitzmas turkey for you.

[Rick Ballard]

If Rove can present a legal defense theory from the outset that would expose the CIA/DeMSM connection fully then he should definitely fight. A public declaration of intent to do so would garner all the money needed to assemble a legal team capable of shredding not just the government case but the CIA/Dem connection and the DeMSM propaganda organs which supported the central liar in this case, his covert/non-covert wife and the press cocktail suckups who carried the ball for them.

The case would also allow for some 527 action hanging the "effectively anti-democratic and objectively pro-Islamofascist tag" on the Copperhead party and its propaganda organs.

Where do I send a check?

[Cecil Turner]

I want wall to wall coverage so the American people can see the towering, stinking, moral and intellectual rot that is the Bush Administration and the GOP.

Wow, that was persuasive. Don't you think it might be just a tad inconvenient for Joe Wilson to have to take the stand and explain those pesky little inconsistencies in his stories? Like how he actually got selected for the mission in the first place? Or knew in advance what the documents he hadn't seen looked like? And how much he and Valerie discussed it before he started his little leak campaign? Somehow, I don't think CSPAN coverage would be quite the boon you think it would be.

[susan]

Fight. It will be the only way to expose those in the CIA (Wilson and his gang of traitors) who have been covering for a great deal of their dirty laundry.

And, along side that battle bring out Able Danger. My guess is the two are tied together by CIA associations heldover from the prior adminstration.

[Katek]

The conspiracy to mishandle classified information sounds particularly lame to me. Would Fitzgerald charge that minus some smoking gun memo or meeting. Especially considering that this was a leak war and there were 2 sides leaking.

It sounds triffling to me. People mishandle classified info all the time.

[Kate]

What type of deal would Fitzgerald give Rove, something similar to Berger's. I don't know. He would have to resign under either scenario, so I'd probably elect to fight.

Embarrass the media and CIA. The goal was to take out top officials not expose themselves. I would not give his enemies that victory.

See the light.

[kim]

What, no faith in the overarching duty of a prosecutor to see that justice is done?

PERJURY: Wilson, Kristoff, Cooper, Pincus, and maybe, Miller.

Though I might have to wait for their testimony at the trial of an administration official
==========================================

[kim]

Susan, wouldn't it be nice if Able Danger got put on the back burner last month because it does have connections with this case?
===============================================

[kim]

Surely there are CIA guidelines about remaining covert. How has Val not violated thses guidelines?
==================================================

[kim]

Can the CIA withdraw the referral to DoJ and stymie Fitz? I know they can't do it without public outcry, but can they do it? The defense to any indictment will rock that boat like even Goss can't. There is one thing about which I am confident. If he needs to choose a course, Rove will find the one that hurts Democrats. One need only be reminded that Wilson et al woud just as soon see Saddam in power. Well he's still alive, go for it. Wouldn't that be a spectacle, Rove and Saddam on trial at the same time. One wonders how those courts would be reported.

Speaking of public outcry, there isn't much. This is pundit squawking. A bunch of newly hatched pundits. Our putative pundits got promiscuous with the truth and a lot of loud little bastards have proliferated.
======================================

[kim]

SM: I don't like the way the Berger thing got swept away without public dissection; I don't like the way the corpse of Able Danger is sequestered from public discussion; and I'll really not like the way this is not publicly dissected if it isn't.

What? Do I find myself hoping for the indictment of a figure powerful enough to defend?
=========================================

[windansea]

definitely fight...I want to see the CIA show us how they were taking active measures to protect Plame's covert identity and how Wilson knew about forged Niger docs

[kim]

Here is one of the finest ironies of the Brave New Century. Saddam would get a fairer trial than Rove.
=================================================

[Kate]

Does Rove pay his own legal expenses. I'm assuming he does. That might have an impact on what he chooses to do. The NYT said the paid millions for Miller's defense.

I'm sure this is what's going on the next few days, trying to get a plea.

The CIA folks and the MSM don't want a public trial.

Rove is probably seething and would opt for a trial which he will play into a loser for his enemies.

[kim]

And why a dossier in March? In February, Wilson wrote an op-ed in the LATimes against the war but in support of the idea that Saddam had chem and bio WMD. Apparent agnosticism about nuclear WMD. Shortly thereafter, he is meta-gnostic about them. What bridge did he cross? Was it opportunism and the absense of mushroom clouds over Baghdad? Or was he guided across the bridge into attack mode.

If so, he is an IED, and we've got to understand that to avoid further casualty.

This is an important question. I can't believe Fitz isn't there.
======================================

[AJStrata]

I would like to see him fight to win.

What the political judicial thing to do is more difficult to pick right now.

[JayDee]

Definitely fight.

Nothing will cleanse our democracy quicker than wall to wall coverage of the sleazy, cynical, amoral way this war was sold to us like a Madison Avenue product. We need to learn about the Niger documents. We need to hear from the many military and diplomatic critics of this incompetent administration who have been biting their tongues. We need to know how intelligence was stovepiped, manipulated and outright manufactured to create a phony sense that "everyone agrees" on Saddam's WMDs and terrorist connections.

The American people NEED to learn that their leaders are elitists who thought they had the right to drum up a fake cassus belli "for our own good" and sell it under false pretenses to our representatives. They did something even more dangerous than attacking our democracy outright. They gave us the back ally "clean forest" approach they prefer - they undermined and subverted our democracy, while silmultaneously painting over their crimes with the shiny fake lacquer that we were "spreading democracy" elsewhere.

Joe Wilson doesn't seem to have any fear whatsoever of a public fight, so that's no concern at all of mine. As for Rove, much as fighting any charges would be the only way he could repay his debt to our democracy, my guess is - if he can - the cowardly little candyass will plead.

[kim]

Bush has a long history of doing the politically judicial thing. He also has a long history of doing the right thing. I believe that over a question and a person of this importance, and at this stage of his career, he will do the right thing. It will amount to the politically judicious thing in the end anyway; which is the secret to the Fortunate Son's success.

His career has had it's prodigalities, maybe it's time for prodigious legalities.
==================================================

[kim]

Bush, and Goss, and Fitz should be having a tete a tres this week-end.
=====================

[kim]

JayDee illustrates just why there should be a cleansing battle. He and I have diametrically(hyperbolae alert) opposing views. We can't both be right. So let's get it straight. I don't think either of us are asking for an overly simple interpretation.

But his evidence that Joe is ready for a public fight brings a grin. That would be fun.
========================================

[Kate]

JayDee: what the trial will expose is the collaboration of the DEM/MSM/CIA(some elements) to destory a sitting Administration.

Remember, throughout the whole GJ process, the White House could not mount a defense or give its side. That ends with the filing of charges.

This may bring the MSM approval rating down to 15%, something the conservatives must do to counter the media's role as a mouthpiece of the DNC.

Plus Joe Wilson is totally unlikeable. Everytime he opens his mouth it's advantage Rove. He is worse than Cindy Sheehan.

[kim]

Updated guess. No indictments. Rogue resignations, all around. Wake for the truth.
============================================

[steve sturm]

Kim: what are you talking about, Bush doing the 'right thing'? You must be thinking about his imposing trade restrictions on steel? not acting on Iran? signing campaign finance that he himself said was wrong? increasing spending at a rate far higher than any Democrat? Trying to make up for his not being prepared for Katrina by giving Louisiana a blank check? Adding a trillion or so in federal obligations through his expansion of Medicare? leaving the borders unprotected? proposing an immense amnesty for illegal aliens? nominating Miers?

As to the question at hand, Tom's asked a trick question. Fitzgerald is not going to indict anyone, so Rove won't have to face the decisions of whether to fight or not.

[robert lewis]

Caveat for Karl & Scooter: Backroom word is that the CIA may have provided Fitzgerald with the names and specifics of agent(s) and "assets" who were killed as a result of the Plame outing. There is a mysterious new star on the CIA wall of honor, with a date of installation that corresponds to the Plame outing period. If true, under the Espionage Act of 1917, this could trigger the death penalty. Have a good weekend, boys.

[kim]

Rowed back on steel; keeping Israel updated on Iran; showing how poisonous McCain's bill is;spending a necessary evil to counteract 9/11 and dot.com, but it's time to close the vault; what would you do if a hurricane struck, go to Miami now; I'm pissed about hooking the old folks on drugs and enslaving their grandchildren to pay for it; a hard wall is comin' down; I know too many illegal aliens; I have no doubt that Harriet Miers is an extemely wise and capable woman. Got a problem with that?
=========================================

[kim]

rl, if that is true it may well be Joe.
========================================

[Kate]

I thought leftists were against the death penalty.

[kim]

Or Val, or al.
================

[kim]

I think commutation for full confession in lieu of death would do, if legally avalible. I'm not sure full confession from Joe is medically possible.
===================================

[kim]

So, in Joe's case, treatment in lieu of death.
=============================================

[kim]

Just to drop a little bait in the water while we while away the wonder-filled weekend: which element of the public is least safe? The undocumented. Their lives are the least safe and they are least safe to the rest of the public. Interesting nexus there that just casually has the word play as magnetic representation or ennumeration. The just word there is shimmering off center.

Public safety, hmmm.
=================================

[kim]

To what degree is our strength due to our porousness?
=====================================

[Syl]

Yeah, sure.

Valery is the only agent in the world who has now been outed officially three times.

Some record.

Some people just don't know when to quit.

[kim]

I wanta know what, when, why, where, who, etc. about that star, and if it comes to that, I shall.
===================================================

[kim]

Uh, Syl, since the paper work is probably in abeyance she is still probably covert. Shhhh. They may wanna go for four.
==============================

[kim]

There are a lot of people who've never heard of her. Billions. Let me start counting.
===========================================

[JayDee]

Kate, it's interesting that you silmultaneously deride your hated "msm" as you show how much you've become addicted to it. WIlson's unlikability will give Rove an advantage? You've become so compliant in the republicanization of our media that you forget this isn't a game, a PR stunt, or a popularity contest. This is our country - all of ours. It isn't the property of Republican elitists who cook up their version of "the right thing" in ivory tower think tanks and then impose it upon the rest of us by fiat (or cooked intelligence). It is alarming the extent to which the rightwing in America no longer has any use for democratic process here at home and so obsequiously prefers to be led blindly by autocratic superiors.

kim is right. There are two diametric visions of America and our recent past - the rush into a preemptive war of choice - that the American people need and deserve to analyze and debate for themselves. It is a scandal that we are waiting on the results of a grand jury to initiate this process. If there were any honor in our one party government, the dialogue would have begun as an adjunct to the 9/11 commission, but that plan was scuttled by the one party autocrats.

Here is a question the silent American majority should be asked - do you support the subversion and undermining of American Democracy, and the imposition of preemptive war by elitist intellectuals making knowingly false representations, in order to spread a dubious form of democracy to the Middle East, a democracy whose outcome is unpredictable and whose efficacy in deterring terrorism is completely undefined? Is this a cause you would recommend your sons give their lives for? Yes or no.

[kim]

The Bell is Tolling.
====================

[kim]

JayDee, a fair question. My best answer is that in my immediate family are three siblings who are veterans of Vietnam, and I have four children whose understading of geopolitics will one day surpass mine, and I have faith that they will not disgrace me at the gates.
=======================================

[kim]

By the way, CT, I've heard my children and friends play a reverse dozens, 'I'm so special, I' and so on, for a dozen ego boosting quips. Apparently the same structure, but even better warfare.
=========================================