How Covert Was Valerie Plame? (cont.)

The rumored indictments expected today cover false statements but not the outing of a covert agent or misuse of classified information.  Might that be because Ms. Plame's status, while technically classified, was simply not that big a deal? 

Bob Woodward addressed that point on Larry King last night:

WOODWARD: ... They did a damage assessment within the CIA, looking at what this did that Joe Wilson's wife was outed. And turned out it was quite minimal damage. They did not have to pull anyone out undercover abroad. They didn't have to resettle anyone. There was no physical danger to anyone and there was just some embarrassment.

So people have kind of compared -- somebody was saying this was Aldridge James or Bob Hanson, big spies. This didn't cause damage.

That jibes with this old Kristof column which told us that the CIA believed that Aldrich Ames sold her name to the Soviets; she was brought home in 1994, and her operations wound up as best they could be.

It also jibes with what I wrote a few days ago.  The short version - the CIA was not making much of an effort to conceal her status: her Brewster-Jennings cover was not constructed with any great verve, neither she nor the CIA were exhorting her husband to keep quiet about the news (sure to be of interest to foreign spy-chasers) that he did contract consulting for the CIA, and the CIA press office did not know her status when Novak called, or exert themselves to prevent publication afterwards.

The nine-thousand word version of that is here; the full version is available on request.

Hat tip: Jane Hamsher of firedoglake.

More at this earlier post.

Comments

[Marianne]

The CIA determines who is covert. Not the White House political staff, not the Press. Responsible people do not publish the identities of intelligence agency employees without taking steps to confirm their status. But of course, with a woman, you would only expect her to be a secretary, so why bother confirming?

[Jane]

Any woman with Plame's alleged security status who would permit her husband to leak and then publicly implicate CIA information to every newspaper willing to write about this sensitive information doesn't even deserve to be a secretary she deserves to be frogmarched out of the CIA in handcuffs. Any outing of Plame's status was as result of her failure to rein in her loudmouth husband. Deal with it.

[Jane]

Any woman with Plame's alleged security status who would permit her husband to leak and then publicly implicate CIA information to every newspaper willing to write about this sensitive information doesn't even deserve to be a secretary she deserves to be frogmarched out of the CIA in handcuffs. Any outing of Plame's status was as result of her failure to rein in her loudmouth husband. Deal with it.

[CIA HR]

Well, either a secretary or some HR role. All the chicks get jobs in HR.

[Anonymous Liberal]

There was also this the other day (Oct. 25) from David Ensor, CNN's intelligence correspondent:

ENSOR: I'm told that in the day when it was leaked, there was a quick look done, as there routinely would be, at whether there was damage. Officials simply won't go into the details. But I did speak to one official who said, yes, there was damage. This woman had a long career. And she was posing as someone else. And all those people who saw her now know she wasn't the person they thought they were dealing with. So there was damage. Yes.

[Geek, Esq.]

Her level of covertness/covertity/covertiness/covertitude won't really matter if they can't peg intent/knowledge on the accused.

[Cecil Turner]

Any outing of Plame's status was as result of her failure to rein in her loudmouth husband.

It's certainly an indicator of how seriously they took her cover and classified information: not very. It also seems probable that she was at least cooperative in the "whistleblowing," since it's fairly obvious Joe Wilson knew more than he should have (and though classified pillow talk might be unavoidable in this case, I'd rather not read the results in the Times).

(And what Geek said.)

[Geek, Esq.]

One thing I do hope is that Joe Wilson will realize that the clock is on 14:59.

[rb]

If you want to credibly pose as somebody else, nominating your husband to do a very visible political hit job is mighty poor tradecraft.

[american in europe]

This whole situation is totally absurd. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the first thing a criminal investigation should do is determine whether a crime has in fact been committed. If not, stop right there. The first thing Fitzgerald should have done was to determine whether leaking Plame's name was a crime, i.e. whether she really was covert. This information, plus the recent "chat with the neighbors" the other day, leads me to believe that she wasn't but that Fitz left this question open until the last minute. Is this really the way prosecutors operate? Call people to testify repeatedly for months/years, during which time somebody is bound to make a contradictory statement, then when it turns out the ostensible cause for the investigation was a big zero you charge someone with "making false statements." Is the point reallly just to "get" somebody, anybody?

[Al]

But nobody's even talking about an indictment for the leak. The obstruction/false statements has to do with the coverup, not the leak. So if Libby is indicted for that, then the damage from the leak itself is irrelevant to the crime he is charged with.

That's one of the strangest things about this whole case - everybody seems to have gotten past whether the leak itself was a crime. I hope that Fitz clear that up this afternoon, one way or another. I expect he will.

[Creepy Dude]

Of course she was covert. For the sake of the country, I hope she was.

If these guys can get themselves indicted in a case where they did nothing wrong in the first place we truly are ruled by idiots.

At least evil geniuses are geniuses.

[Syl]

"If you want to credibly pose as somebody else" you don't make sure the 'outing' really outed you by posing for Vanity Fair.

[MeTooThen]

FWIW,

If it is true that Libby will be indicted for "false statements", we have to conclude that Special Prosecutor convinced the Grand Jury that Libby did so with criminal intent.

Why would Libby do such a thing?

His own notes surrendered to the SP purportedly/reportedly contradicted his own testimony.

???

Is Libby stupid?

No.

???

I will believe the Libby indictment when I see it.

More to the point, if indicted, Libby's got some 'splainin to do!

Sheesh.

...

Evil NeoCons!

Quagmire.

[Creepy Dude]

And don't forget Cheney will be called as a witness aginst him!

[Reg Jones]

"Responsible people do not publish the identities of intelligence agency employees without taking steps to confirm their status."

Fair point. But in this case Novak did talk to CIA spokesman, Harlow before publishing. While Harlow said not to publish Plame's name he apparently went on record with this:

"The CIA [Harlow] says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him." [Novak, july 14, 2003].

So the relationship was on record but the actual name was irresponsible to publish?
That makes no sense. Your beef is as much with Harlow as it is with Novak et al.

[Sue]

Still no documents on Fitzgerald's website.

[TM]

If these guys can get themselves indicted in a case where they did nothing wrong in the first place we truly are ruled by idiots.

If Woodward is right about Plame's covertosity (covertiosness?), Libby overbilled during his years as a high-priced lawyer.

[CroolWurld]

I just want to thank you for watching Larry King so that I don't have to. And I mean that sincerely.

Thanks

[TM]

Covirtue?

[Sue]

Prediction...Fitzgerald comes out at 2:00 and says...Psyche! Turns and leaves. :)

[Rick Ballard]

The nice ladies on the GJ baked Fitz some pies and now they're throwing them at him.

[Creepy Dude]

Treason's Greetings!

[Reg Jones]

"Rove provided new information to Fitzgerald during eleventh-hour negotiations that "gave Fitzgerald pause" about charging Bush's senior strategist, said a source close to Rove. "The prosecutor has to resolve those issues before he decides what to do." [WaPo,10/28]

Gulp. That sounds bad.

[larwyn]

Joe Digenova on CNN now.
He says that if the charges are
conspiracy, expect to see Tenet,
the former Ops Director of CIA and
the rest of the crew in court.

Digenova further says that if any
part of inditement touches on any
of this, the CIA will have to testify as to what means they took
to protect Plame's identity.
And how such bad tradecraft such
as allowing a husband of supposed
covert agent to go on a mission
and require no confidentiality
agreement, no written report and then allowing this husband to write
op ed in NYT's.
ME:
Bottom line may be that the wiley
admin wants this day in court - as
it makes no sense for Libby to have
forgotten being told by VP Cheney.

These are not stupid people.

Of course, I also believe that the
entire Miers affair was GW's answer
to the wimpy R's in the Senate, who
made clear they didn't want to fight. Picking a Ried selection is
what makes it "rovian". We will see if the wimps have been given some backbone with their fear of their own voters.

[Creepy Dude]

Is that Iamdumbic pentameter?

[Sue]

I wonder, being from Chicago, if noon to Mr. Fitzgerald means Central time? ;)

[owl]

All this waiting has made me furious again. Just thinking about what we all know and then what our JUSTICE system gives us, is sick. If after 2 years, Fritz does not indict Wilson/Plame/and a dozen reporters, he is an idiot. There. I have said what I really think. He needs to explain to us how Kristof and Pincus could write about Wilson in May and June, long before Miller/Libby. Then he needs to explain why I can COUNT the CIA/Media attacks against the White House. Yep, Fritz has a lot of explaining if he gives out an idictment of Libby.

[Sue]

ABC News (radio) is reporting that the 1st indictment has been handed to the judge.

[Nimrod]

Owl-didn't you get the talking points?

An indictment of Libby is cause for much rejoicing on the right apparently.

[cathyf]

Sorry, can't let this one go by:

The CIA determines who is covert.

No, the Law determines who is covert. The laws passed by Congress, and ruled upon in findings of fact by judges and juries. The CIA (as part of the executive branch) certainly classifies things according to whether or not they believe them to be secrets, but when there is any doubt, we live under the Rule of Law and the CIA is not a court of law.

cathy :-)

[Reg Jones]

CNN reporting obstruction, false st, and perjury. Re Libby.

No underlying crime on disclosure of Classified information? Very interesting and telling if true.

[ed]

"Those close to the investigation say inquiry expanding... State Dep't and National Security Council figures probed... Rove may be in hotter water: Sources say he was offered a perjury deal but turned it down.... At least three officials in the case have agreed to provide additional information, setting the stage for an explosive, continuing probe... Lawyer for Joseph Wilson plans 3 p.m ET press conference; Civil suit expected.."

[cathyf]

I wonder, being from Chicago, if noon to Mr. Fitzgerald means Central time? ;)

Nah, Fitzgerald is definitely a New Yorker. Brought in to clean up the cesspool of Chicago corruption. I'm really going to be crushed if it turns out that they've converted him, too.

cathy :-)

[Neil S]

I find the great faith in the integrity and trustworthiness of the CIA that so many on the left seem to have found to be quite touching. It is refreshing to see their recognition of the critical importance of covert operations (even those that happened many years earlier). I do wonder though, how long that faith will be maintained after it is no longer politically useful.

[bill joe]

Libby in hot water...until he receives his pardon.

Rove in clear...and will stay that way.

Rove for Supreme Court!!!!!

[Don]

The obstruction charge is total total BSSSSSSSSSSSSSs.

No underlying charge... BS.

Typical Government behavior. BS.

[boris]

Sorry, can't let this one go by:

The CIA determines who is covert.

Good for you.

There's also plain English. Someone openly working at CIA headquarters is not "undercover" in the common meaning of that word. If there is some postmodern claim that such can have official "undercover status" that is immune to logic and obligates special treatment, that's not prosecutable in my opinion.

[Mark Buehner]

She worked at Langley, just how covert could she have been? It would take a real master spy to follow her to work one day or look in her mailbox. For goodness sake this was the worst kept secret in Washington.

[Jim E.]

Tim Russert apparently said that during his phone call to Libby, they never spoke about Wilson's wife. Libby was calling Russert to complain about news coverage, and Russert said that no one leaked any info to him. Russert said that he never knew anything about Wilson's wife until Novak's column was published. I'm getting this summary from Talkleft.

It turns out that NBC's PR department just has shitty writing skills!

[Don]

No laws broken until overzealous prosecutor comes to town.

[Ace]

Yes, she was so concerned about her identity she posted for pictures in Vanity Fair.

[Geek, Esq.]

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/04ms407-I.pdf

Apparently, Rove threw Scooter under the bus.

Time for payback?

[Don]

Clinton lies to grand jury and has to give up bar card for a few years.

[cathyf]

If there is some postmodern claim that such can have official "undercover status" that is immune to logic and obligates special treatment,

No, you've missed the Kafka, which is behind the postmodernism. Anything can be declared by the bureaucracy to be a secret, and of course you wouldn't know, because, well, it's secret. So at any time, they can come frog-march you off because something that you could not have had any clue would be ruled a secret was, and you have spoken it.

If I were a better hacker, I would break into the CIA computers and classify the DC phone book as "secret." Then I'd go start demanding the arrest of all the 411 operators...

cathy :-)

[DirtyName]

I can't wait until Joe Wilson is cross-examined by Libby's defense team...

Sadly, the pressure on Libby to cop a plea is going to be enormous.

My prediction:
At least one count of making false statement to investigators. Perjry dropped. No trial. No jail.

[Crank]

Seriously, TM, if you don't have a book or at least a magazine deal by now for this story . . . um, not that anyone will ever want to buy a book about it. But if they did, yours would be the one to read.

[DirtyName]

Note to Evan Bayh:

Bite me. "This is a sad day for America."

Are you kidding me? He bothered to issue a statement as lame as that? Sometimes it's better to just shut up rather than to act like you are "saddened" by bad news for your political enemies. What an insincere jackass.

[ed]

per the indictment

"f. Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson (“Valerie Wilson”). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community. "

[Neo]

If all the grand jury work is secret, why is the NYT, ABC et al reporting on indictments ?

There must be a leak in the grand jury

Will Patrick Fitzgerald be investigating this leak too ?

They will have to question the reporters from the NYT, ABC et al to determine who leaked the grand jury work.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

It's official, Joe Wilson is a liar. Am I too big to gloat?

Hahahahahaha!

Fitzmas left a lump of coal in the stockings of Joe and Val. As well for Geek, Jeff, Jaydee, pgl, Brad DeLong, and all the other dopes who couldn't construct a valid syllogism if their lives depended on it.

[ed]

the indictment is public it's on his website. what do you mean?

[AT]

ed:

Point?

[ed]

If all the grand jury work is secret, why is the NYT, ABC et al reporting on indictments ?

There must be a leak in the grand jury

Will Patrick Fitzgerald be investigating this leak too ?

They will have to question the reporters from the NYT, ABC et al to determine who leaked the grand jury work.

[windansea]

apparently there is nothing in the indictment that says Libby or anyone else knew Valerie was covert

Corn and Joe outed her as covert!!

I guess Val can sue them

[Geek, Esq.]

Rightwingers gloating because a senior official got nailed for being a filthy liar?

Strange days, these.

The press conference should be illuminating.

[Neo]

After reading the indictment, all I can say is this what it took 2 years to accomplish ?

This indictment is pathetic.

As a taxpayer, I am outraged that it took 2 years of DOJ staff work to get this ridiculously thin indictment on procedural matters like making false statements.

It only goes to prove that you should invoked your 5th Amendment rights and refuse to say anything, giving only the statement that ... anything you might say could be based on a faulty recollection and therefore to subject you to possible charges of "making false statement."

[Lesley]

Libby Biography

[ed]

Hmmmm.

1. I'm the other 'ed'.

2. Wilson is going to file a civil suit? That's frankly amazing to me. I wonder what will come out in the depositions and when he testifies under oath.

3. *shrug* Republicans need another 55+ indictments to catch up to Clinton's administration. Of course Republicans are more evil per capita so that evens out eh?

:) lol.

[owl]

I stand by my opinion. Fritz is a certifiable vicious idiot. I saw Andrea Mitchell agree on MSNBC that this was one of those "everybody knows" secrets. It was a talkover with Matthews but that woman was definitely agreeing. Cooper sleeps with a Democratic operative and we are suppose to take these people's word? Put another way........Fritz just bagged a biggie for the Democratic Media and their cohorts in the CIA. Now he seems to be into blackmail of the WH. He is the very reason people no longer respect the law or lawyers. The MSM lies on their front pages and TV using CIA leaks and every single time the target is the WH. Fritz nor the law deserves respect when the law is so twisted that liars can create this type of injustice. He should have closed up shop long ago. Disgusted.

[topsecretk9]

2. Wilson is going to file a civil suit? That's frankly amazing to me.

to me too! I can't think of a more idiotic move.

[ed]

windandsea, did you read this or not? it's from the indictment:

"f. Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson (“Valerie Wilson”). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community. "

[Rick Ballard]

If I read the indictment correctly (and IANAL) the States case is dependent on testimony from Cooper, Russert and Miller. Unless they taped the conversations its going to be "who do you believe" on a 3-1 basis. Wonder if the NSC has a supersecret taping system in the WH that wouldn't have been subject to Fitzgerald's supoena.

Who in their right mind within government would speak to a journo ever again without tape and a videocam running?

[DirtyName]

Hmmm... after reading the indictment, I don't understand why The Fitz couldn't bring any charges related to the original purpose of the Grand Jury.

The indictment clearly states that Plame's status was classified until the Novak story broke, so what gives???

Someone please explain it to me why, if he can prove it was in fact Libby who leaked the information, Fitz couldn't also indict for mishandling classified information or some related charge.

It just doesn't make any sense, people. Something is missing here.

[Lesley]

Libby Biography

Sorry, wrong link

[Dork, PhD]

Geek,

YOU are the liar!!!! Nowhere in the indictment did it use the work "filthy"!!

By the way, I am gloating. Mainly because I made the mistake of listening to the mainstream media over the last few weeks and they had me believing the entire WH was going to be marched out in handcuffs and sent directly to prison. When I compare the 5 counts of "bad memory" vs. a couple of reporters and no underlying crime of "knowingly outing an undercover agent or leaking classified info", it really does make me believe today was a Merry Fitzmas!!!

[Dork, PhD]

Dirty,

No criminal intent.

[AT]

Government agencies can classify whatever they want. Just because her employment status is classified doesn't mean she's covert. Obviously, she wasn't, or else there would have been a count for an actual crime.

[Will Franklin]

What I really want to know is who in the heck is this Libby Plame chick, anyway, and what did she have against Veronica Wilson?

:)

[Neo]

The reading the intent of this indictment, it is clear that much of the background briefings, common in the White House for years, are probably subject to criminal prosecution.

Imagine what Fitz dould have done with Sidney Blumenthal in the Clinton White House ?

JFK probably would not have been able to use those back channels to head off the Cuban missile crisis (i.e. we'd all be in a much different world today).

[Dork, PhD]

ed the sped,

can you read? "not common knowledge"

It doesn't stay "not known" it says "not common knowledge"...which means it was not 'generally known', but it was known.

[Jim]

Sounds like "he said, she said" plus a serious case of Libby befuddlement.

[mary mapes]

Tinfoil spec...

Fitz will announce that he is expanding to investigate other information uncovered (the original crime) "the names were wrong, the dates were wrong"

[DirtyName]

Roger, Dork.

But I must say, I wouldn't write off Libby's actions to "bad memory." I'd say the evidence suggests he really was trying to find a way to leak the info to the media without it being attributed to him or the VP's office.

But his decision to try and pass it off on reporters is a classic case of Libby trying to treat the FBI and the Special Prosecutors in the same way he treats the media.

Libby definitely screwed up. He ran his mouth too much, at least according to the prosecution's version of the facts.

But all this liberal huffing a puffing about treason just makes them look like complete morons.

[ed]

he doesn't name the original leaker "A". this may continue, there may be plea deals but the original leaker wasn't libby, so he couldn't be charged. it almost looks as if his hand was forced.

[Appalled Moderate]

Oh, Lord, let's not have a string of it's just "he said/she said" bullcrap, ok? The indictment gives a long list of the ways Libby became aware of Plame's name and status. Libby claims he found out the name from reporters. That's clearly untrue -- he found it out from several people inside the administration. The reporter testimony is corroberates the charges in the indictment, but even if they had all said "Sure, I told Libby all about Plame. Gee, was he surprised!!", Libby would still be on the hook for perjury/false statements/etc, as it is clear he discovered the name from others.

[Gary Maxwell]

2. Wilson is going to file a civil suit? That's frankly amazing to me.

to me too! I can't think of a more idiotic move.

Consider the source.

[Reg Jones]

Official "A"= Rove

Rove was the secondary source for Novak not the original leaker.

[Dork, PhD]

Stock market up big!!!! Rove Rally!!!!

[Creepy Dude]

Merry Fitzmas and Treason's Greetings! Another grand jury is coming and the investigation continues.

And look at all who's been talking with Fitz. That indictment is like an aviary it's so full of songs!

And it's so clear that Fitz held back some of his firepower. Check it-Plame was classified until Novak's column. Then she wasn't. So what are the new talking points on how this happened?

[Geek, Esq.]

Remember, a NEW grand jury is going to be convened.

Lions hunt big game by separating their prey from the rest of the herd. Same goes with federal prosecutors.

[Rick]

The moonbat left was looking forward to a pony for Fitzmas, and they got handed this box of socks and underwear.

Too funny! Libby's charged with nothing Clinton didn't do, and much less than Webb Hubbell.

Cordially...

[Jim E.]

I would recommend everyone read the actual indictment before declaring Libby innocent. It's actually a pretty good read, esp. the first twenty-odd pages of narrative.

They have got WAY more evidence than was ever made public showing how Libby repeatedly and methodically was getting info about Wilson and his trip and WIlson's wife's role. The evidence shows that Libby knew info he had was classified. None of the reporters, not even Miller, back up what Libby testified about. (His letter to Miller, BTW, in retrospect looks very much like coaching, but he wasn't charged with that.) In short, there's no way he would have misremembered every conversation. Heck, at one point, Libby testified that as late as July 2003 he wasn't even aware if Joe Wilson was married. It's laughable, given all of the times he researched Wilson (and Wilson's wife) and how many times he told reporters about Wilson and Wilson's wife. He clearly lied.

[windansea]

ed

"f. Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson (“Valerie Wilson”). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community. "

yes I read that...what's your point? The charges against Libby do not include knowingly outing a covert agent...

he revealed her as working for the CIA and probably didn't know she was covert IMHO....you can believe he did but it's obvious that Fitz does not.

Corn and Joe outed her as covert...unless you want to count Novak's "operative" as meaning covert.

Just saw Wilson on TV...no comment and he looked ticked off

[Jim E.]

Also: Fitz has WAY more non-reporter witnesses that he can happily nail Libby with. His case doesn't depend on Miller at all. (Remember how Fitz wrote to Scooter saying that he -- Fitz -- assumed Scooter didn't want Miller to testify because he assumed Miller's testimony would hurt Scooter? Fitz already had the goods on Scooter when he wrote that.)

Fitz has several cooperative administration officials who testified against poor ol' Scooter.

[ed]

press time!

[Reg Jones]

Libby's motivation.

Why?

[ed]

friends neighbors and college classmates had no idea. novak blew cover.

[Jim]

"Libby claims he found out the name from reporters."

See pg. 22 of the indictment for Libby's actual words. "Well talking to the other reporters about it, I don't see as a crime. What I said to the other reporters is what, you know - I told a couple of reporters what other reporters told us, and I don't see that as a crime."

It may be a distinction without a difference, but if you follow the labyrinth of Libby's conversations over the dates listed that's what he did. If Plame was covert, then Fitzgerald would have charged him with leaking her status. Fitzgerald implies at the beginning of the document that Libby was bound not to disclose "classified" information. Unless I missed it, I don't see a charge for that.

[Creepy Dude]

"Her cover was blown" Fitzgerald just now. Ouch.

[JayDee]

Hmmmm, were some of the gloating yahoos in Wingnuttia hoping to see the patriotic "left" turn on Fitz after today? Why would anyone turn on such an ethical, honorable, decent public servant?

His press conference is a one by one smackdown of Pub Talking Points. National security, indeed, Mr. Fitzgerald! NOW the citizens of this democracy can finally get started evaluating the unAmerican activities of this amoral bunch of elitist bastards. Here's the point that's going to be impossible to hide - NOTHING comes before power and party for these elitists. Including our NATIONAL SECURITY and the LIVES of our soldiers.

[Sue]

Does classified mean covert?

[Geek, Esq.]

Oh, this is ugly for the administration. Ugly.

And Libby is simply dead meat.

And finally, TM can abandon his obsessive parsing of statements regarding Tim Russert and what he told Libby.

[Jim]

So, we know that Libby lied to the investigators about what he knew, when he knew it and who he told. Still no charge for outing Plame.

[ed]

investigation stays open! baseball analogies!

[Gary Maxwell]

Sue

the answer is no they are two entirely different mechanisms in the bureaucracy and in the law.

[Gary Maxwell]

Libby aint much but its all you got lefties

[owl]

Listening to Fritz. Yep. Bonafide idiot. If he believes how he started his little "tale of outing" he really needs to watch TV more often or get his channel off CNN and MSNBC. Answer the question Fritz: Are you telling me that Kristof and Pincus source was not Wilson AND wife?

He bought the whole ball of wax. Let me make a witness list for you Fritz and tell your tale a different way. He is only making it worse the more he talks. He never figured out what happened because he never had a clue that this was a political attack AGAINST the WH. Pitiful.

[Jim]

Fitz sure loves to pontificate.

[boris]

Fitz goes down in history with Rather, Mapes, Blanco and Nagin for blowing his career over BDS.

[Geek, Esq.]

Wow, the rightwingers have gone from "Suck it lefties" to "Fitzgerald is an idiotic loser."

Tells me what I need to know.

[windansea]

Fitz....not charging Libby with outing a covert agent"

told you so

[windansea]

Wow, the rightwingers have gone from "Suck it lefties" to "Fitzgerald is an idiotic loser."

Tells me what I need to know.

one anonymous poster on the internet tells you what you need to know huh??

yikes!!

[topsecretk9]

windsniffer

the only time Joe Wilson has been honest: on CNN

WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.

[windansea]

TS(

when did he say that?

saw him on TV walking to his car

no comment and he looked ticked off

didn't get his widdle frogmarch of Rove

I hope he sues....love to watch the cross

[JayDee]

There is absolutely no emotional filter for these rightys, Geek. I'm convinced that's why they were so easily subsumed by the Fox style of news reporting - colorful pictures, being told what to think and dragging every complex issue down to a gradeschool emotional level.

It's done terrible damage to this country, but watching this Fitz guy - professional, straight up, down to earth - reminds me that there's still hope. Just as we're starting to see the Iraq War vets coming back running for Congress & Senate as Dems (every last one so far), we're gradually going to see the loosening of the rightwing death grip on defining patriotism strictly on their terms.

[topsecretk9]

Windasniff

July 2005

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/wbr.01.html

[Jim E.]

Fitz for SCOTUS! Although he doesn't have John Roberts' anchorman voice, Fitz's 15 minute monologue was almost as impressive as Roberts' opening statement to the Senate committe.

[Dandaman]

Boy, you wingnuts are really cute when you're frustrated and scared.

I wonder how long the new Grand Jury will be empaneled til. Will it be until halfway through campaign season next year or will it wrap up in October, just before the midterms, like this one?

I don't really know. I think it's 6 months they go for. Of course, that entire time should be interesting to watch the constant discussions about the deception from Republicans during the run up to the war that is costing American lives and billions of dollars.

I like the way this is turning out. Of course, I would have liked it better if the liars hadn't done it, but you can't teach an old Elephant new tricks.

[JayDee]

From Fitz, a real American: "That talking point won't fly...Truth is the engine of our judicial system."

The talking point in question? The one soon to be heard coming out of every winger media mouth a mile a minute - two years and no indictment on an underlying crime????????????

The point of perjury is it is used by criminals to PREVENT discovery of the truth about an underlying crime.

[owl]

Wrong. What I am emotional about is the way Fritz started his little tale. He said it with a straight face. I NEVER said that Libby did not lie to the gj. Difference.

I said Fritz was clueless after 22 months. All you have to do is listen to his comments on reporters. That is how I know he is clueless. He said at the jump go of his news conference that his job was to gather all the facts and then decide the story. He did not tell the "story" as it actually happened. Wilson and his wife deliberately led a coup against the WH. They used Democratic MSM. It was done with a political motive to benefit a political party. Fritz told some fairy tale straight from the MSM pages. I did not say Libby didn't lie. I did not say Fritz was a political operative. I said he remains clueless to have said what he said about Wilson and tell his "story" as he told it. Case closed.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Plame's status was classified but not covert.
Indictment:

page 3
Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson ("Valerie Wilson"). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community.

Page 2

The responsibilities of certain CIA employees required that their association with the CIA be kept secret; as a result, the fact that these individuals were employed by the CIA was classified. Disclosure of the fact that such individuals were employed by the CIA had the potential to damage the national security in ways that ranged from preventing the future use of those individuals in a covert capacity, to compromising intelligence-gathering methods and operations, and endangering the safety of CIA employees and those who dealt with them.

[Rick Ballard]

Mahatma,

Only problem is - if she's dumb enough to get involved in sending blabbohubby to Niger she's not exactly 007 material to begin with. And if blabbohubby seeks the limelight based on a decision rooted in her nepotistic tendencies - who's at fault?

She was finished in the intelligence field the minute blabbo opened his mouth.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

I've seen some pretty desperate rescue attempts, but the lefties here take the cake.

Fitz finally admitted, after about the fourth question, that it's not against the law to reveal classified information, per se. He didn't indict on charges of revealing, because there was no intent to do harm; i.e., Plame's employment was relevant to the controversy.

Just as I've been telling numerous idiots for two years now.

[JayDee]

LOL, talk about your desperate rescue attempts , Patrick. Where did you pull that "intent" nonsense out of? Fitz never said that. He couldn't indict on a charge he couldn't prove. But he couldn't prove it because Libby committed a CRIME in obstructing the investigation into the crime. Why was Libby lying about something if it wasn't a crime?

You wingers need to brush up on your patriotic principles. Listen to Fitzgerald a little. It will clean you out. National security is not giving old men Viagra shots because they can gloat about how their guns are bigger than the Muslims' guns. For one thing,it's about respecting the LAWS that protect the very few qualified, courageous individuals willing to put their lives on the line and go into the CIA. But you all would rather split hairs over it.

Party before Country every time. That's the Republican way.

[Walter]

So,

When interviewed by the FBI and again in front of the grand jury, Libby explained that he had first heard of Plame through gov't sources. Quotes in the indictment.

But,
He told reporters that he heard it from them. He told the FBI and the GJ that he was surprised when reporters told him that Plame was involved because he had forgotten that he had initially learned from gov't sources. Fitzgerald can easily show that he should not have been surprised, as he had been working on the issue for over a month at the time of the conversations. Fitzgerald's indictment spends a lot of time proving that Libby knew something that he disclosed he knew whenever he was questioned.

That seems like a slam-dunk, except that, as he did not lie about what he knew, where he learned it, or when he knew it, his lie about his state of mind seems, perhaps ... immaterial?

With regard to the substantive mistatements about the content of his conversations with reporters, materiality is not the issue.

However,
(insert mandatory "I have never defended a perjury charge")
Isn't it a bit difficult to prove a he-said/(s)he said case when the accusers refuse to answer questions? For example, Cooper, Russert, and Miller famously refused to answer questions about who else, if anyone, told them anything about the case. That doesn't affect their credibility for probable cause, but it certainly has an impact on Libby's abilty to confront his accuser, and lends some (perhaps) reasonable doubt.

Am I missing something?

[topsecretk9]

Party before Country every time. That's the Republican way.

What can does this come from?

[owl]

You just made my point Walter. It all stinks all the way through because you have Wilson part of a plot and then able to hide behind "protected" wife. Then you have these "shielded" reporters as witnesses that were the conduit to send Wilson AND wife's story to the front pages. Now they are all protected except for the attacked party.

[leah]

Dems don't have a country. Their allegiance is to their multi-national, UN-biased, global-testing, European Socialist, non-sovereign, one-world, let's-launch-a-covert-operation-against-the-US-government sensibilities.

[jukeboxgrad]

Jane: "Any outing of Plame's status was as result of her failure to rein in her loudmouth husband. Deal with it."

Even if you believe Wilson and Plame are the devil, and have committed unspeakable crimes against puppies and babies, none of that gives Libby et al a free pass to break the law. Deal with it.

Cecil: "It's certainly an indicator of how seriously they [Plame/Wilson] took her cover"

See the above.

American: "The first thing Fitzgerald should have done was to determine whether leaking Plame's name was a crime, i.e. whether she really was covert."

The indictment makes clear that Plame's status as a CIA employee was classified information. Period. It doesn't matter whether or not one also wants to claim she was a covert operative.

Reg: "While Harlow said not to publish Plame's name he apparently went on record with this ... "

I agree that it looks like Harlow told Novak something about Plame (the part about "asked his wife to contact him"). But you're making an unwarranted assumption to claim Harlow said this "on record."

I think Novak said to Harlow "Rove et al have already told me all about Plame, so don't bullshit me." Then Harlow said "Plame didn't send Wilson, and please don't write anything about her."

If this is what happened, I'm not going to claim that Harlow handled it perfectly. But I think it's understandable, given the players involved.

[jukeboxgrad]

Owl: "He needs to explain to us how Kristof and Pincus could write about Wilson in May and June, long before Miller/Libby ... Are you telling me that Kristof and Pincus source was not Wilson AND wife?"

You know how: they heard from Wilson. So what? Show me where Kristof/Pincus outed a CIA employee.

Nimrod: "An indictment of Libby is cause for much rejoicing on the right apparently."

Exactly. The right is thrilled because there are actually some senior Republican figures who haven't been indicted and aren't even under investigation yet! Who woulda thunkit?

Boris: "Someone openly working at CIA headquarters is not 'undercover' in the common meaning of that word."

Bottom line: according to Fitz, Plame's status as a CIA employee was classified information. As someone said, deal with it.

Anyway, I think you're suggesting that Libby wasn't committing a crime when outed Plame. If so, why did he do so much lying to cover his tracks?

Mark: "She worked at Langley, just how covert could she have been?"

The indictment makes clear that Plame's status as a CIA employee was classified information, and it doesn't matter whether or not one also wants to claim she was a covert operative.

"For goodness sake this was the worst kept secret in Washington."

Then what a surprise that not a single source (named or otherwise) has come forward to proclaim that they ever heard such a thing (Plame's status as a CIA employee), pre-Novak. Vague hearsay by Cliff May, reported ex post facto, doesn't count.

[jukeboxgrad]

Don: "No laws broken until overzealous prosecutor comes to town."

Let the swiftboating begin. Yes, Fitz is partisan. I guess that's why yesterday the WSJ called him "a respected prosecutor of unquestioned integrity."

Owl: "Fritz is a certifiable vicious idiot"

See the above.

"I saw Andrea Mitchell agree on MSNBC that this was one of those 'everybody knows' secrets."

Then what a surprise that not a single source (named or otherwise) has come forward to proclaim that they ever heard such a thing (Plame's status as a CIA employee), pre-Novak. Vague hearsay by Cliff May, reported ex post facto, doesn't count.

"Cooper sleeps with a Democratic operative and we are suppose to take these people's word?"

Funny thing how Cooper protected his source all through the period preceding 11/2/04. Do you think this made him more popular at home?

By the way, Fitz has a lot more on Libby than just what Cooper said.

Rick: "the States case is dependent on testimony from Cooper, Russert and Miller."

Fitz has a lot more than that.

Ace: "Yes, she was so concerned about her identity she posted for pictures in Vanity Fair."

That was months later, Einstein. Once she was outed, she was outed. The toothpaste doesn't go back in the tube.

[jukeboxgrad]

Cathyf: "So at any time, they can come frog-march you off because something that you could not have had any clue would be ruled a secret was, and you have spoken it."

Good luck convincing anyone that Libby "could not have had any clue" that a WMD operative working for the CIA might have their employment status classified as secret.

Anyway, if that's really what happened, why didn't he just tell us right off the bat? "Oops, terribly sorry, I didn't know her employment status was classified." Instead, he lied his butt off. I think that's a clue that he knew exactly what he was doing right from the start.

Neo: "procedural matters like making false statements."

I thought lying about a blowjob was a big fucking deal. What changed?

Dirty: "Someone please explain it to me why, if he can prove it was in fact Libby who leaked the information, Fitz couldn't also indict for mishandling classified information or some related charge."

I think Fitz feels that in order to make that charge stick, he would also have to prove that Libby was aware of her classified status. It appears that Fitz realized he could more easily nail Libby these other ways. Fitz made it pretty clear he just wants to nail bad guys, and it doesn't matter much what nail is used, as long as it sticks. Makes sense to me.

[jukeboxgrad]

AT: " ... or else there would have been a count for an actual crime."

I remember the good old Clinton days, when we were told that perjury was "an actual crime."

Dork: "I made the mistake of listening to the mainstream media over the last few weeks and they had me believing the entire WH was going to be marched out in handcuffs and sent directly to prison"

Maybe you should put the cork back in the champagne bottle. Fitz isn't done yet.

"It doesn't stay 'not known' it says 'not common knowledge'...which means it was not 'generally known', but it was known."

Then what a surprise that not a single source (named or otherwise) has come forward to proclaim that they ever heard such a thing (Plame's status as a CIA employee), pre-Novak. Vague hearsay by Cliff May, reported ex post facto, doesn't count.

Neo: "it is clear that much of the background briefings, common in the White House for years, are probably subject to criminal prosecution."

Tell us about the other CIA employees who were outed by prior administrations.

Ed: "the original leaker wasn't libby"

No. Fitz said Libby was the first government official to tell the press about Plame.

[jukeboxgrad]

Rick: "Libby's charged with nothing Clinton didn't do"

Let us know how many CIA WMD operatives were outed by Clinton.

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that we should be very, very concerned about WMD. Did I get that wrong? Or maybe it's actually blow jobs that are a major threat to national security. It's all so confusing sometimes.

Anyway, it's not a good sign for the quality of your argument when the best you can do is say "we're not any worse than the guy we told you was the devil incarnate." Especially when it's not even true.

Wind: "he revealed her as working for the CIA and probably didn't know she was covert"

The covert part doesn't matter (even though I guess you really wish it did). What matters is that her status as a CIA employee was classified information, and Libby leaked it anyway. That's a problem. Deal with it.

Jim: "If Plame was covert, then Fitzgerald would have charged him with leaking her status."

Not necessarily. It's natural for Fitz to go for the low-hanging fruit: whatever charges will stick most easily. Maybe Fitz felt he needed to prove knowledge, or intent, and didn't have enough proof.

Anyway, it's not a question of whether or not Plame was covert (whatever that means). It's that her status as a CIA employee was classified.

Sue: "Does classified mean covert?"

Bottom line: Plame worked for the CIA. That fact, in and of itself, was classified information.

[jukeboxgrad]

Jim: "Still no charge for outing Plame."

It's pretty clear that Fitz believes that Libby outed Plame. The fact that this isn't the charge simply means that Fitz found some other charges which he could use more easily to hang this felon.

topsecret: "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."

What an act of desperation to trot that one out. Wilson made it clear he meant "Plame's cover was blown the day Novak blew her cover, as a result of Novak blowing her cover."

Owl: "He [Fitz] did not tell the "story" as it actually happened."

Can you be more specific? What statement of Fitz's do you find objectionable? That he didn't say "Wilson and his wife deliberately led a coup against the WH?"

Rick: "She was finished in the intelligence field the minute blabbo opened his mouth."

Even if you believe Wilson and Plame are the devil, and have committed unspeakable crimes against puppies and babies, none of that gives Libby et al a free pass to break the law. Deal with it.

Walter: "When interviewed by the FBI and again in front of the grand jury, Libby explained that he had first heard of Plame through gov't sources. Quotes in the indictment."

I can't find such a thing in the indictment. Can you help me find it?

"Am I missing something?"

Yes (aside from the other question I raised about your comment). Fitz has a lot to work with besides the testinony of the reporters you mentioned.

[Neo]

Now this morning Drudge has a report that says Valerie Plame has received threats.

I wonder if Joe Wilson now regrets that photo of himself and Valerie on the cover of Vanity Fair ? One of those coulda woulda maybe shouldn't moments.

Better yet, it is now revealed that Joe did a previous trip for the CIA to Africa in 1999, based on a suggestion by his wife, Valerie Plame (or Flame).

But I most enjoyed the comments about how this reveals an ambassador's wife as CIA. Most Interior ministers of US-hostile countries must already have considered ambassador's wifes to be CIA (like the think of the ambassador himself), but this only confirms their suspicions. (I seem to remember post about this topic before).

[richard mcenroe]

"The CIA determines who is covert. Not the White House political staff, not the Press." -- Or Senator Leahy. Or Phillip Agee. Or the New York Times...

[jukeboxgrad]

"it is now revealed that Joe did a previous trip for the CIA to Africa in 1999, based on a suggestion by his wife, Valerie Plame"

That was revealed a long time ago. No one has ever denied it.

[vch]

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