How Covert Was Valerie Plame (III)?

Joe Wilson, aka "Mr. Incredible" will be whining appearing on 60 Minutes about threats to his wife.  Uh huh.  Maybe, since Joe admitted to doing consulting work for the CIA in his NY Times op-ed (and the Senate revealed that he undertook a 1999 CIA mission), it is he that is imperiled.  Or maybe the baddies are excited about the prospect of a twofer.

Closer to reality is Joseph DiGenova, a Washington lawyer and former US attorney who spoke to the Christian Science Monitor:

DiGenova adds that if the trial judge allows the references to classified information to remain in the indictment, defense lawyers will probably attack the CIA itself for failing to take the necessary measures to protect its own agent.

It was the CIA that enlisted the agent's husband, Joseph Wilson, for the sensitive mission in Africa, and it was the CIA that permitted Mr. Wilson to publicly disclose his role and publicly criticize the White House in an op-ed piece in The New York Times, diGenova says. In effect, the CIA set the stage through sloppy tradecraft for the disclosure of one of its agents.

Indeed - as the Boston Globe noted, her Brewster-Jennings cover was not designed to withstand any scrutiny at all.

The Washington Post surveys the damage done by the Plame leak, and delivers this reassurance:

There is no indication, according to current and former intelligence officials, that the most dire of consequences -- the risk of anyone's life -- resulted from her outing.

Bob Woodward's leaked version was even more reassuring:

WOODWARD: ... They did a damage assessment within the CIA, looking at what this did that Joe Wilson's wife was outed. And turned out it was quite minimal damage. They did not have to pull anyone out undercover abroad. They didn't have to resettle anyone. There was no physical danger to anyone and there was just some embarrassment.

The WaPo also presents a garbled paragraph that is more compelling in the re-edited version picked up by Newsday:

The CIA will not conduct a formal damage assessment until legal proceedings are complete.

Is that how it works when our national security is threatened and lives are on the line - the CIA waits a few years until the trials are over, then assesses the damage?

Come on, we see through this - if the CIA prepared a formal report, it would be subpoenaed as evidence, and the jury would laugh out loud at the "no damage" assessment.  So the CIA filed a criminal referral in 2003, got the White House tied up in a two year investigation, and now they are laughing out loud.  Well played, especially if you like a spy service that shrugs off executive oversight by inventing crimes and playing dirty tricks. 

That said, Fitzgerald saw through their outing ploy, else, where are the indictments for the leaks to Novak and Pincus?  However, Fitzgerald did not see through their mysterious "Forgettery Mind Ray" that was trained on Lewis Libby.  Where is the justice?

FAIR AND BALANCED:  Joe Wilson calmly appraised the hypothetical consequences of his wife's outing for David Corn in the article that ignited this scandal:

Without acknowledging whether she is a deep-cover CIA employee, Wilson says, "Naming her this way would have compromised every operation, every relationship, every network with which she had been associated in her entire career. This is the stuff of Kim Philby and Aldrich Ames."

Mr. Incredible also helped Katie Couric grasp the enormity of our peril:

COURIC: How damaging would this be to your wife's work?

Mr. WILSON: Well, you know, what was left out of my interview with Andrea Mitchell was--was my comment that I would not answer any specific questions about my wife. But hypothetically speaking, as others have reported, including TODAY, it would be--it would be damaging not just to her career, since she's been married to me, but since they mentioned her by her maiden name, to her entire career. So it would be her entire network that she may have established, any operations, any programs or projects she was working on.

Interestingly, threats to her physical safety are not mentioned here.

UPDATE:  Let's add this, by Mr. Gerecht, a former CIA case officer and a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute:

Truth be told, however, the agency doesn't care much at all about cover. Inside the CIA, serious case officers have often looked with horror and mirth upon the pathetic operational camouflage that is usually given to both "inside" officers (operatives who carry official, usually diplomatic, cover) and nonofficial-cover officers (the "NOC" cadre), who most often masquerade as businessmen. Yet Langley tenaciously guards the cover myth--that camouflage for case officers is of paramount importance to its operations and the health of its operatives.

Know the truth about cover--that it is the Achilles' heel of the clandestine service--and you will begin to appreciate how deeply dysfunctional the operations directorate has been for years. Only a profoundly unserious Counter-Proliferation Division would have sent Mr. Wilson on an eight-day walkabout in Niger to uncover the truth about uranium sales to Saddam Hussein and then allowed him to give an oral report.

UPDATE 2:  From the Nov 15, 2003 WaPo, by Dana Priest:

Lives of lies shadow spies even when they leave CIA

...

Plame's case is different in that she was burned — not once, but twice. The first time was by Aldrich Ames, the CIA turncoat who is believed to have given the Russians the name of every covert operative in the Soviet/East European Division over 10 years beginning in about 1985.

Not knowing exactly whom he had outed, the CIA recalled hundreds of operatives, including Plame, for their safety. Still, her undercover status remained intact until July, when syndicated columnist Robert Novak identified her by name as a CIA "operative" in a column about her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson IV, whom the CIA had sent to Niger to check on allegations that Iraq was seeking to purchase uranium oxide there.

It is difficult to assess the damage to national security from the Plame case without knowing her specific assignments. Between July and October, when the story of Plame's outing took on a much higher profile, the CIA was not officially assessing the damage from Novak's column. Nor was the agency taking, or recommending that Plame take, any particular security precautions.

The CIA has not launched a damage assessment, but in matters that involve law enforcement, such as the Justice Department's investigation into who leaked Plame's name and occupation to Novak, the CIA typically waits until the case is wrapped up so that nothing it unearths is subject to discovery in court.

But FWIW, here is the WaPo from Sept 28, 2003:

After the column ran, the CIA began a damage assessment of whether any foreign contacts Plame had made over the years could be in danger. The assessment continues, sources said.

STILL MORE:  Andrea Mitchell got a minimal damage leak similar to Bob Woodward's.

And here is a Jan 30 2004 letter to John Conyers describing the criminal referral - the reference is to a leak of classified information, not a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

Comments

[chuck]

I'd love to see you so cavalier about threats to your own life... and the lives of your family. Keep blogging with your mind tied behind your back, and it may well happen.

And I love how "conservatives" only love the charismatic central authority, and not their whole nation. Remember the supervision beinng given to the CIA was pressure to come up with good arguments for invasion. It worked- Tenet and other hawks used sometimes forged, sometimes blatantly thin evidence to scare us into sacrificing our sons for the geopoltical fantasy.

Not much to brag and strut about there.

[clarice]

Tom, I give a very deep bow to the master--BRAVO!

[TCO]

CIA are a bunch of putzes. More of a waste than NASA. Every single time they are involved in targeting, a missile hits something it shouldn't.

[TM]

I'd love to see you so cavalier about threats to your own life... and the lives of your family. Keep blogging with your mind tied behind your back, and it may well happen.

My goodness, Chuck, are you threatening me?

Or are you just guessing that, although you personally would never do anything, someone else might?

I eagerly await your reply.

As to your "content" - do you suppose that Wilson's behavior has the least little bit to do with his current "predicament", if, in fact, he is in one?

And do you believe Wilson when he says he is threatened? Since you may have a special insight into the psychology of people who threaten strangers whose opinions annoy them, you might be able to help us understand this.

[EricH]

TM:
Remember that it's your patriotic duty to challenge the government and those in positions of power. Speak truth to power the progressives say.

Er, unless its pronouncements from the CIA.

Then you must uncritically accept their judgements.

At least when they work against those dastardly neocons.

EH

[topsecretk9]

This is a stunning admission by the press:

Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff is learning one Washington lesson the hard way: Don't do battle with people who run covert operations for a living.

I think this post will be lost on Chuck, but Chuckie it was the CIA, not anybody else, that outed an agent of there own. Period.

But getting to the statement in the AP article this is frightening. The CIA is NOT a Branch of Government, the CIA is an Agency OF THE Government. There role is to spy and collect and decipher intelligence to protect our country. They HAVE NO ROLE in deciding policy. They answer to the President, Democrat or Republican.

For people to not understand what is really happening here is scary.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/051029/ap/d8dhiml00.html

[Dwilkers]

"For people to not understand..."

It has been increasing distressing to learn over the last few years reading blog commentary that the vast majority of people in this country have not even the first clue about the basic structure of our government. You know, Civics 101 stuff. I sincerely doubt that even a bare majority of people understand the literal truth of your statement that "They HAVE NO ROLE in deciding policy".

[JayDee]

For people to not understand what is really happening here is scary.

Well, what is happening here exactly? You can always count on a partisan rightwing extremist to TELL you what is happening, provided you promise not to look into it and think for yourself at all.

Did the CIA try to stage an internal coup against the Veep's push to lie the American people into war? From what I've read, that's definitely part of the story here. Was that wrong? Or was that an act of patriotism on the part of Americans who have made sacrifices for this country not one person here can measure up to? I'm not convinced that this is what happened, or why it happened, if it did. But I'm surely not going to have rightwing partisan extremists pounding the table with this - or any scenario -as if it were unadulterated fact.

A lot has gone on here. The administration was not honest and trustworthy with the CITIZENS OF THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY when taking them to WAR. They used and abused the intelligence gathering capabilities of the nation to create their own desired scenario, apparently with the agreement of many of their winger cohorts that they had the elitist right to decide this life and death matter for the citizens....the citizens presumably being too stupid and preoccuppied to be trusted with such decisions themselves.

The CIA staged a pushback, I think that's likely. How far it went we don't know, but we know Big Dick was aware of it and wasn't going to let anyone else exert unlawful power - that was his prerogative.

Another most essential element of this story is clear from Bob Woodward's HUGE LIE told on the Larry King show, with a straight face. The CIA did NOT do an after action report, and Woodward straight up LIED about it on national TV, with a little stop to give some love to Judy Miller. What's that all about? That's the other part of this incredible story - the way the "free" press was totally prostituted in the White House (sometimes quite literaly, with a gay male whore in the press room) . Whenever they had a lie to feed to the public, whenever they wanted to libel an oppponent, they knew exactly which press whores to target. It was part of the machine, the machine of perverting our democracy to carry out their own elitist think tank theories - using the blood and treasure of innocent people around the world, and here at home, to do it.

[flackcatcher]

This is the reason DCIA Goss is doing a "Jason" to the Agency. Those who were not deployed overseas moved up, and you can see the result today. The good news is those returning are as good as this country had in a long time. As for Plame-Wilson and those in the CPD and other divisons who aided and protected them, they'll get what coming to them. No one, and I mean NO ONE gets to screw with the the constitution and get away with it,period.

[kim]

Aren't you glad the CIA(or a historical piece of it) was on your side?
===========================================

[TM]

Did the CIA try to stage an internal coup against the Veep's push to lie the American people into war? From what I've read, that's definitely part of the story here. Was that wrong? Or was that an act of patriotism on the part of Americans who have made sacrifices for this country not one person here can measure up to?

What is this, a Stupidest Lefty competition? Do I need to announce those, or is it always open? Sorry, JayDee, Chuck keeps the lead.

And since you are obviously not taking even a moment to inform yourself, your statement that "not one person here can measure up to" the patriotism and sacrifice ao some CIA agents is belied by the fact that several military vets are regular commenters here.

As to the notion that maybe it was an internal coup, but that's OK - wow.

If you are straining to figure out the CIA ought to conduct itself lawfully, the answer would involve leaks and pleas to the minority party, which is well represented on the Senate and House oversight committees.

Direct leaks to the press and trumped up criminal referrals are not the route we should be encouraging.

[flackcatcher]

Hmmmm(quoting Ed). Sounds like Chuck and JayDee need some time away from their keyboards. It's Sunday, see your friends, watch football, relax. This is not end of the world stuff guys, ok.

[kim]

The Sun rises, and the Times, they are a changin'.

New York, New York, that is.
=================================================

[kim]

Might not a victim hoping for civil damages as a result of a criminal conviction drop a story enhancing those damages in front of the prosecutor, provoking last minute lost cat investigations?

Here, Fitz, have another serving of Joe's Yellow Cake. You can work it off tomorrow, and it'll make you feel radiant tonight.
==============================================

[JayDee]

Ha , no, it's not a Stupidest Lefty competition. I'm really not that cavalier about the CIA abusing its role.But this WH has created an absolutely Through the Looking Glass reality for all of us. We have a group of think tank egotists who decide to reshape the Mideast, using ideals like "a priori American goodness", and then abuse a cataclysmic national tragedy to pursue their personal geopolitical goals. They stovepipe, cherrypick, forge, manipulate, suppress, propagandize - and god knows what else - legitimate intelligence to phony up a cause for war that their focus groupers have told them can be sold to the American public. A public that is largely moronic when it comes to anything related to our system of government, international affairs or national security. In this context, the CIA reacting against the lawless government doesn't really strike me as a battle of Right vs. Wrong. It's Wrong vs. Wrong. Which side do you pick?

I'm trying a lot harder than the average American to understand this story, but it's extremely complex. The overwhelming sense I have from it is of coldblooded elitists abusing their power in a system where real democracy is no longer operative. On righty sites like this one, there is always the tacit understanding that any abuses of power by this WH were done for our own good, to give us this historic war even though the citizens of America were never told the truth about it. You condone abuses of power all the time. It's a little hard to take your outrage seriously when it's focussed against the CIA, who after all, are the political first cousins of the WH elitists. It isn't their behavior you despise, it's the fact that it's hurting "your guys" and your agenda for this country.

[TCO]

The fucking pussy leftists didn't want to go to war in 1991. Never forget that.

[kim]

You know, JayDee, if you'd read a few Iraqi blogs, get to understand just how the Iraqis feel about us facilitating the autonomous revolution they are having, and you won't feel quite so angry. It's the Purple Finger Tonic.
==============================================

[kim]

Lick your finger. Those grapes are sweet.
================================================

[millco88]

Since the NBA starts this week, let's use a basketball analogy. Aren't the people complaining about going to war with Iraq after voting for it similar to the Pistons wanting to redo the 2003 draft and take Carmelo Anthony instead of Darko??

[millco88]

Or better yet, take Dwyane Wade??

[kim]

He stalks the land,
Dripping blood from the fingers of one hand,
And oil from those of the other.
Bush or Saddam?
I reckon I know
Just which of those you'd druther.
=======================================

[Cecil Turner]

They stovepipe, cherrypick, forge, manipulate, suppress, propagandize - and god knows what else - legitimate intelligence to phony up a cause for war that their focus groupers have told them can be sold to the American public.

Prove any part of that, and you might have a point. But you can't. You certainly can't with Wilson's silly story to've checked part of Niger, to "disprove" a part of the case for African uranium, which was itself a minor part of the case for Saddam reconstituting his nuclear program, which was a minor part of the WMD threat, which was only one reason for the war. Finding out he lied about it (and the connection to the WH) only ices the cake.

A conspiracy of peaceniks (and useful idiot fellow travelers in the press) is working hard on a disinformation campaign designed to demoralize our citizenry and convince our enemy that we'll quit. It's working--they keep pouring resources into a conflict that is unwinnable (for them) militarily--unnecessarily inflating casualties on both sides. The very real risk (and sacrifice) to those servicemembers stands in stark contrast to the "threats" to Ms Wilson. It's also worth noting that those actually bearing that risk--and those who have in the past--disproportionately support both the Administration and the war. And claiming some moral high ground based on the need to delegitimize a war after it's well underway is utterly bankrupt.

[JayDee]

The fucking pussy leftists didn't want to go to war in 1991. Never forget that.

I always had the idea TM preferred less freedom of expression on here. But thanks for this. It makes the point perfectly that America is filled with assholes who really think international warfare is about the size of their balls.

[kim]

Yeah, for the ring, Melo beat a tall walkin' bitch of a basketball player and the new Bull point.
================================================

[JayDee]

It's also worth noting that those actually bearing that risk--and those who have in the past--disproportionately support both the Administration and the war.

And how about proving that, Cecil, to see if you actually have a point. I keep hearing how the troops voted overwhelmingly Republican, which always makes me wonder why the armed forces aren't entitled to the same secrecy of vote that the rest of us are. Where is the evidence for this?

I would like to call your attention to the fact that six Iraqi vets are running for Congress (as announced so far) and one for Senate in '06 - Every last one as a Dem. How do you explain that?

America had the right to be asked a straight question: Do you support spending your tax money and the lives of your sons and daughters to attempt to reshape the Middle East through regime change? Now that this question is finally being revealed to the American people, MUCH after the fact, their judgment on the matter is clearer by the day. NO.

And you have the nerve to pretend that this change of opinion is the fault of the ubiquitous "lefties" (in the CIA, media and under all our beds)...rather than an awakened awareness in a previously terrorized, intellectually apathetic public to the lying bill of goods they were sold. You really don't have much respect for your fellow Americans,do you? We can't all be "lefties". Maybe we're just citizens of the same damn country you are.

[kim]

For purple fingered majesty,
For manual waves of glee,
For us to grasp our majesty,
We thank your son, Cindy.
=============================

[kim]

I got a nice Sunday diversion for you JayDee. You can find it on the web. It's a short story called Chickamauga by Ambrose Bierce, about a little boy living on the periphery of the WONA battlefield.
================================================

[cathyf]

PURE SPECULATION ALERT!!!!

In 1994, the CIA found out that Plame had been outed by Aldrich Ames. They hurridly wrapped up her operations, gave her a new identity, and a new cover. She floated around Europe using her new cover, not doing anything particularly useful because it was too dangerous to send her on any real covert missions.

In 1997 she met Joe Wilson at a party, and they immediately launched into an intense affair. Even though he was still married, and hence open to risk of blackmail, Plame told him her identity on the 3rd date.

They returned to the US that summer because the CIA didn't have anything for her to do with her cover blown. Wilson got divorced, they got married.

Plame has been going into Langley every day, trying to find something that she can do. The skills of a good covert officer are kind of unique, but they are only useful if you can go overseas and spy on foreigners. Between Clinton slashing budgets for the spying side of the agency, and Aldrich Ames ending the spying careers of multitudes, the agency is crawling with ex-spooks who can no longer spy but who don't have any skills in the other stuff that the agency does -- analysis, sophisticated computer programming and modelling, data mining, high proficiency in the languages of our enemies, hard sciences. Since these are faithful public servants who have suffered career-disabling "injuries" through no fault of their own, the agency is scrambling to find them something to do. In 1999, Plame gets her husband some sort of assignment going to Africa to check some things out for the agency. (Still classified.)

In 1999 she gets pregnant with twins. She gives birth, and this is yet another blow. Any mother can tell you the enormously rude awakening parenthood is, but twins will stretch any mere mortal to the breaking point.

So now it's Feb, 2002. The twins are around 2 years old. How much time has Mrs. Wilson spent at Langley in the previous two years? Does she work full time? Part time? Couple of hours per month? Given that her degree is in political science, it's not clear that she knows enough science to contribute anything useful to analysis of chemical, biological or nuclear weaponry. What is the function of the Brewster-Jennings cover? Is it to allow the CIA to "pension her off quietly" paying her salary and benefits even though she is not doing any work? If so, is this general CIA policy? Is it legal? How many other gold-brickers is the CIA quietly paying off?

What I've always found very interesting is Joe Wilson's claim that "outing" her destroyed her career. It seems that all of the other analysts with CPD, WINPAC, INR, DIA, etc. are non-covert employees. (FLEITZ! FLEITZ! FLEITZ!) If she was really an analyst, why would it end that career because it became public that she works for the CIA? Is Ms Plame Wilson really "out" even now? Can you really put somebody in jail for lying about something that not only wasn't a crime, but something that didn't actually happen at all?

cathy :-)

[Sue]

Are we still trying to guess which political party Jay Dee calls his? ;)

[kim]

The ants at the picnic are her post partum depression, which, I'm sure, was no picnic.
==============================================

[Truzenzuzex]

JayDee said:

But this WH has created an absolutely Through the Looking Glass reality for all of us. We have a group of think tank egotists who decide to reshape the Mideast, using ideals like "a priori American goodness", and then abuse a cataclysmic national tragedy to pursue their personal geopolitical goals.

But aren't these goals the goals of the American people by extension? The President was duly relected to pursue virtually the same agenda he began in his first term.

A public that is largely moronic when it comes to anything related to our system of government, international affairs or national security.

Oh, dear. The "moronic public" again. I'd laugh except I used the same kind of nonsense when Clinton was in office - I guess you pays your money and you gets your morons. Hopefully I have grown out of that phase.

The overwhelming sense I have from it is of coldblooded elitists abusing their power in a system where real democracy is no longer operative.

"Real democracy" has never, ever been operative in this country. That's why it's called a "Republic". With respect to cold-blooded elitists, what else could we call Joe Wilson? He was evidently sent on a trip by the CIA for which I submit he was largely unqualified, apparently secured by the intervention of his wife. The fact that he was an administration critic could not have been lost on the CIA.

It is also a bit convenient that while Wilson wasn't required to submit a written report, he was able to loudly and with great fanfare write an op-ed in the nation's largest newspaper as the opinion of an expert on the subject with first-hand knowledge of something that later proved to be false. One cannot fail to note that he is relentlessly playing up a sympathy angle that apparently has very little support in reality.

It's a little hard to take your outrage seriously when it's focussed against the CIA, who after all, are the political first cousins of the WH elitists. It isn't their behavior you despise, it's the fact that it's hurting "your guys" and your agenda for this country.

I am confused - who gets to say what an "abuse of power" is, and how do you reach the conclusion that power was abused in this case? Wilson made public charges as an expert that were at odds with his own report to the CIA. He did so as a political partisan with a straightforward political agenda, and he traded on his credentials as a former U.S. ambassador and his "special" mission for the CIA for the credibility to write a scathing op-ed that impacted (arguably improperly) the debate about the Iraq war and the ensuing presidential election.

Somebody, apparently Libby and Rove, advised the media of suspicious factors impinging upon the selection of Wilson (i.e. his wife's employment). Fitzgerald himself said:

I will confirm that her association with the CIA was classified at that time through July 2003. And all I'll say is that, look, we have not made any allegation that Mr. Libby knowingly, intentionally outed a covert agent.

To me, this goes to the heart of abuse of power. If Libby had confederated with others in a conspiracy to "out" Plame, it would have been charged in the indictment. If Libby had himself done so within the confines of the relevant statute and Fitzgerald thought he was able to prove it, it would have been charged.

So your whole premise has no apparent support in fact.

[Cecil Turner]

And how about proving that, Cecil, to see if you actually have a point.

How about this exit poll, which suggests veterans supported GWB by a margin of 57-41% (and factoring in the cited war support percentages, must have disproportionately supported that as well)? It further suggests that if you remove the veterans' vote, Kerry would have won a narrow victory. There have been numerous polls showing the same thing, and several stories from last election about the Dems' attempt to swing the vet vote (e.g., here).

I would like to call your attention to the fact that six Iraqi vets are running for Congress (as announced so far) and one for Senate in '06 - Every last one as a Dem. How do you explain that?

Dunno. Perhaps because the DNC thinks a war record (especially as a latter-day protester) is a significant qualification? If you're claiming they're representative, you're going to have to explain polls like this one:

Sixty-three percent of respondents approve of the way President Bush is handling the war, and 60% remain convinced it is a war worth fighting.

And you have the nerve to pretend that this change of opinion is the fault of the ubiquitous "lefties" . . .

I certainly have the nerve to pretend the coverage is relentlessly negative (because it is), and that some lefties are spreading disinformation (because they are), and that Joe Wilson and his cronies are part of the problem. How much of the opinion change is due to that (or other factors such as the Administration's weak PR, conduct of the war, unrealistic expectations, or simply fatigue) is hard to quantify.

[Syl]

JayDee

::flash::

Be afraid. Be very afraid. Halliburton monitors this blog.

::endflash::

[Syl]

Cathy

I think you are really on to something.

These bozos are only protecting their jobs.

With the wmd intelligence failure they're desparate.

[kim]

Hey, folks, the mission is accomplished. We could come home tomorrow, and the Iraqis would do alright. It would be easier for them if we stay awhile, though, and after all they've been through, I don't begrudge them a little more of our time and resources. They'll be a Gibralter for some time to come.
=================================================

[JayDee]

If Libby had confederated with others in a conspiracy to "out" Plame, it would have been charged in the indictment.

Untrue. If Fitzgerald had the proof that Libby conspired with others, it would have been charged in the indictment. The success of the WH -so far- in concealing its actions from the eyes of the law, as they have from the public, does not equate to innocence.

I am very impressed at this point with Fitzgerald's ability to pierce the armor of secrecy in this WH.It was quite an unusual sight to see a public figure on TV actually answering questions honestly, in plain language, with an intent to inform rather than misdirect. We are so unacquainted with hearing simple, common truth spoken on our televisions these days, it really felt strange. The indictment feels like the first chink in a previously unbreachable dam, so is remarkable in and of itself. We'll see where it takes us.

As for the intelligence level of the American people, I'm not talking strictly politics. Only 17% of Americans, according to a recent poll, believe that evolution is scientifically accurate and apparently more people believe in ghosts than think George Bush is doing a good job as President. For all the a priori goodness that justified our preemptive invasion of a nation that posed no threat to us, we are an embarassingly ignorant group of people.

I'm familiar with your particular brand of conservative theory - that citizens of a republic must remain the abject victims & puppets of elitists who will make all their decisions for them. It jibes well with an uneducated populace, and gives the government a vested interest in keeping them so.

[JayDee]

I suppose Syl's last comment was some clever insinuation that "lefties" are tin foil hat conspiracy theorists - rather incredible given the clashing of tin foil that's gone on around here the past few weeks. I have a novel thought for all you good Repubs to consider on a Sunday - the dreaded "lefties" are your fellow Americans, equal citizens, with a sincere and honestly derived point of view that happens to conflict with your own. It is rather unseemly to watch you magnificent patriots continuously deride your fellow Americans for practicing just those ideals you base your entire a priori concepts of American goodness on.

[kim]

Yeah, that's me all over, uneducated, abject victim and puppet.

Dance, dance, dance,

and shout.
=================================

[Syl]

JayDee

This is breathtaking:

"The success of the WH -so far- in concealing its actions from the eyes of the law, as they have from the public, does not equate to innocence."

All their actions belong in Area 51.

Actually, they concealed them so well, they don't even exist.

You just don't get it, JayDee. You have a disagreement with Bush's policy. Why can't you accept that it's just a disagreement? Is it actually necessary for you to believe that people who don't agree with you have been tricked?

Doesn't that make you feel worse, rather than better?

Because if it were true, you're toast.

[Cecil Turner]

I have a novel thought for all you good Repubs to consider on a Sunday - the dreaded "lefties" are your fellow Americans, equal citizens, with a sincere and honestly derived point of view that happens to conflict with your own.

Very nice. May we also apply that consideration to the "rightwing partisan extremists," "coldblooded elitists," "think tank egotists" and the "assholes who really think international warfare is about the size of their balls"?

BTW, on the latter point, I suspect those of us with some actual experience in the area take it very seriously, and have devoted considerable thought to the matter. (One tends to pay more attention when one's balls are in actual jeopardy.) The fact that there are diverse viewpoints just illustrates the fact it's not a simple subject. Hence simplistic arguments like the above tend to be unpersuasive.

[kim]

Oh, and since you seem to think the idea of an attempted CIA putsch was just the patriotic thing to do, maybe you're not my fellow American.
==========================================

[Gary Maxwell]

Re: Stupidist Lefty AWARD

"Sorry, JayDee, Chuck keeps the lead."

TM can we vote? I say JayDee wins on sheer volumn of BS consistently driveled out day after freaking day. A slow dripping faucett got nothing on him.

[SteveMG]

JayDee:
Those of us on the political right would love to have dinner and a movie with you folks on the left, but when have you ever sent flowers?

How about just a nice smile and a compliment on our hair? Not asking for a lot, here.

This isn't exactly a case of unrequited love.

SMG

[owl]

As the resident TV watcher, think I need some blood pressure meds about now. PBS did the darnest hacket job with Isikoff and Cooper. Watching Russert do another full fledged. Russert..NBC/MSNBC...Isikoff..Newsweek posted on MSNBC...Andrea Mitchell..NBC/MSNBC. How in the hell is it possible that the witnesses can be allowed to wage this war 24/7 in the open? You should have heard Cooper.....he and Isikoff were not even on Libby.....they were going after Rove full force.

[owl]

Can anyone answer these 2 questions? Is it possible for Fitz to have a sealed indictment against Official A? Anyone know who leaked the Classified CIA Inquiry to MSNBC for Andrea Mitchell to report?

[brandy]

"The fact is, once your husband writes an op-ed piece and goes political, you have no immunity, and that's the way Washington works," said Robert Baer, who served in the CIA's clandestine service. - WP article

Nice to hear a former covert CIA agent talk straight.

[Creepy Dude]

So Joe Wilson is a liar. But the guy who fights back with the Truth ends up indicted for false statements and perjury.

It's a puzzler.

[chuck]

Bloggers often get threats... especially those whose vitrioloic tone outpaces their reasoning. All I was saying is that when one actually receives a death threat, it tends to change their armchair perspective. That's all.

It's cool to question the CIA, and their compentence. I don't think that's being done reflexively here... It's just the last thing Hannity said to prtect the interests of Dear Leader, so people run with it.

On the content, you can't have it both ways. Either the CIA underestimated the threat, and the WHIG shook them around to ensure that Dear Leader could justify his forward leaning stratgy to save our lives, OR the CIA tricked Dear Leader by failing to delelop accurate intelligence. The latter is simply unsustainable: you are among the 1/3 of Americans who think Iraq is a shining success.

The former is the real story... but it turned out that Dear Leader, Chalabi, Curveball, the MSM, and the right wing chorus were even more wrong than the dreaded CIA. The twists and turns it takes to retroactively justify your actions is the real pychological mystery. Not Joe Wilson. He didn't support the war. Ruining his wife's career pissed him off something fierce. It is very cute to see a liar that the right doesn't just automatically salute. McLellan, Cheney, Libby, Rove... all lied on the public record. No problem.

I understand that anything from the left seems luny when you listen to Rush all day and Fox news all night. But ya'll are in the minority... and getting more so all the time. No amount of Ann Coulter books will be able to write history your way. The Bush team wanted a war... they justified it the best way they could- without caring too much about the truth... they used forged documents, false statements, exagerations, and misleading analysis. Anyone familiar with the INR and OSP knows how this happened. Having control of 3 branches of government has certainly helped keep the truth at bay for awhile... but the truth is pernicious.

You can fight it, but you'll need more than luck.

[kim]

CD, it makes sense if you figure that Fitz will let DOJ deal with Joe's lies, and he's settling with Libby and Judy for getting cute.
=============================================

[kim]

Think how lucky the Iraqis are, Chuck.
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