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November 29, 2005

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boris

They are called "illegals" yet there is almost zero prosecution of any crime and many government officals are prohibited from enforcement.

If those problems can't be resolved I fear the underlying situation is not debatable. The abstract concepts bear no relation to reality and until they do it's just a "more taste ... less filling" argument for the sake of argument.

kim

No spella da English.
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kim

There will no longer be a problem when America is no longer a desirable place to which to immigrate. We should count our blessings, one of which is that the dominant emigrant alien-tongued socioeconomic underclass has at least similar religious traditions as the dominant one here.
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cathyf

You know, if Mexico could just get rid of its kleptocrats and become a rich country as they are poised to be, we would end up having the same sorts of (minimal) problems that we have with illegal immigration from Canada. And without the flood of humanity for real bad guys to hide amongst, and the whole industry of smuggling people across the border, it would be a lot easier to keep bad guys out. Oh, yeah, and fresh fruits and vegetables will be a lot more expensive, too. A small price to pay!

This happened very quickly when Ireland became the "celtic tiger" in the 90's. The huge flood of Irish illegals basically just disappeared within a matter of a few years.

cathy :-)

owl

Dick Morris uses common sense when approaching this problem. Bush should just come straight out and build the fence. Then start screening who is here and what needs to be done. Some of these people need to be put on track for citizenship, others not, others sent back, and then create a better 'guest worker' program.

Will read Capt tomorrow to see if he shares DMorris' views but I also think Bush could own this issue. Its possible but admit not probable. The problem will come from the tee-totalers. Bush has clearer vision on this problem as a Texas Gov. Morris is a little to the left of him (except for the wonderful fence) and Malkin is much, much to the right.

Surely the group on the right can resist making this another blood sport. They almost wiped him out with Miers.

JayDee

The immigration issue is likely the issue that finally completes the fracture of the incompatible elements within the Republican party. How to balance the rapacious greed of the pure capitalism that elite Pubs worship with the desperation of the underemployed, uneducated, racist rabble they need to pander to for votes? Big dilemma. Add that to their dwindling pipe dream of bringing Hispanics into their "permanent majority" (pardon me while I guffaw for a few minutes), and they're really in quite a pickle. There's no easy way to resolve these oppositional political needs and a waffling incompetent like Bush is certainly not going to be the man to "articulate" (sorry, more guffawing) the "vision".

noah

Steaming turd watch.

Gary Maxwell

I see Charles Winchester III has made another appearance who even types "guffaw" not once but twice! Cant you just see this pompous windbag droning on and on to his mother that he still lives with!! Now that is something to chuckle about

JayDee

Ah, Gary Maxwell - the poster boy for Pubbie pathology. Can't argue the merits - so attack the individual! And make sure when you do it that you just make shit up.

As always, good to see you pubs can't defend your way out of a paper bag without your talking points and gangleaders on board. As sad as it is to have to see our country being destroyed by your party of incompetent crooks, there's still the comic releif of watching your mindless zombies get all confused. This immigration thing has them totally befuddled. And now that their elitists in power have to find a way to "cut and run" in Iraq (or lose the House and Senate - and all that payola!), those poor morons are going to be shellshocked. Here they are, swallowing every PR release, every stupid lie about "Victory in the War on Terra!"...and now they're going to have to understand why Bush is secretly following the advice of that Michael Moore lefty pinko Jack Murtha! Hillbilly heads are spinning.

TP

I think it is more like a one man hand-wringing Greek Chorus. : ^ ).

Gary Maxwell

You of course are right J. Duffy AKA JAYDEE. I called you a pompous windbag. You prove me wrong with your next post showing you to clearly be a virulently hateful pompous windbag. Thanks for the correction.

JM Hanes

JayDee

Perhaps you could fill us in on the Democratic alternatives here. I'd also like to know how they respond to the particular concerns of the border states as to the meshing of Fed/State interests, agencies & funding.

Cecil Turner

Michelle M. is using phrases like "Most ridiculous line so far" and "lip service" - score her as on the fence.

I had a pleasant e-mail exchange with Ms Malkin a couple years back on this subject. IIRC, I expressed some skepticism as to the practicality of sealing the border with Mexico, and she was convinced it was feasible. We agreed to disagree. I suspect there won't be much enthusiasm even for the half-measures the President proposed, once voters see the price tag. I doubt it's even possible to implement a program that'd make Ms Malkin happy, but it's certainly not politically saleable. "Momentum sapper," "turkey," whatever . . . it sure doesn't look like "a winner."

Speaking of politics, the tragic downfall of a true American hero (though undistinguished congressman) "Duke" Cunningham is likely to spin into an even more interesting scandal. (Josh Marshall thinks it'll morph into a DOD investigation . . . and he's just getting warmed up.) Add in today's Iraq strategy speech, and I'd be surprised if there was enough oxygen left for immigration reform . . . at least until it's time for last-minute window-dressing before the mid-term elections.

owl

Put me down in the Bush/Morris solution. But please build the fence.....first. I wouldn't be surprised to see it slowly being built but without a word said. Unfortunately, either Bush or his PR team think this is smart.....rather like the Katrina fiasco PR.

Katrina PR was the war lost. Now if any idiot Bush PR folks are reading this, do not make the same mistake. Get out there and CLAIM this FENCE. You claim it and then really look to see who is here, you will be in a position to argue for what is good for all sides.

Also you idiot Bush PR...you need another visit by Bush to border and another speech...next month....not next year. Now I will drop the word 'idiot', sorry but Bush's PR is my 2nd pet peeve.

ed

Hmmmm.

It's spelled "debacle" but pronounced "amnesty".

noah

I notice that when the 'steaming turd' is asked for his policy prescriptions on the immigration issue, all we get is...silence.

Rick Ballard

Based on cost per mile expenditures by Israel a similiar wall would run about $18 billion. It would be monumentally silly to build it based upon the fact that the US has rather liguid borders to the east, west and south.

If it's monetary cost were zero, it would remain an essentially stupid idea. If you think of it in terms of "First we bulldoze the Statue of Liberty and use the money we get for its scrap value to buy the cornerstone for the wall" the concept loses some of its appeal.

Gary Maxwell

all we get is...silence.

All you are ever going to get from this pompous windbag is vile attacks on the administration. Usually factless and consistently way off on a reading of where the voting public stands on any and every issue.

Take the silence as golden. It wont last, it never does.

kim

He got thirsty.

But War on Terra was pretty good.
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kim

And I was highly amused by a (presumed) Democrat sneering at pandering to an underemployed, uneducated, racist rabble. A desperate one, no less.
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davebo
You know, if Mexico could just get rid of its kleptocrats and become a rich country as they are poised to be, we would end up having the same sorts of (minimal) problems that we have with illegal immigration from Canada.

I wholly agree with the issue of Mexico's kleptocrats. But poised to become a rich country?

That's a pipe dream. Not enough oil, not enough tourism, not enough anything to convert Mexico into anything close to a "rich country" or even a country with a majority middle class.

Here's a tip. The reason Mexico is run by 40 families.... It can't afford to support 41 ruling families.

owl

Rick, I assume we can list you under the No Fence.

owl

Then I am curious if you happen to live in one of the border states.

JayDee

all we get is...silence.

All you are ever going to get from this pompous windbag is vile attacks on the administration. Usually factless and consistently way off on a reading of where the voting public stands on any and every issue.

Hey, sorry, I'm not as amused by this site as I used to be. I'd like to see TM start focussing on the Abramoff story. His attention to detail and fact is a great resource and it's becoming a waste of talent for this place to continuously regurgitate "she wasn't covert".

Immigration? Beats me. As usual, it's incredible that the elitists elected to deal with this haven't done a thing since 9/11 to make us more secure...you know, where it counts. That's my only concern with it - security. Building a wall is such an unfeasible, colossally unaffordable solution that I'm really surprised Bush hasn't embraced it in his usual way of letting politics masquerade as policy. I should think the true capitalist believers would see this as the ultimate free market at work - people needing work risking life and limb to get to a place they can be underpaid and overworked. My take on the Pub uproar over this issue is that the underemployed, uneducated, racist rabble (yes, Kim, that's the backbone of today's noble Pubby party) just love an issue they can both understand and feel enraged about. Sean H. understands this, but Bush is too beholden to his true family - the entitled elitist class that craves cheap labor like a vampire craves blood.

So, sorry, boys, no answers. Never said I had any. I just enjoy watching this slow motion tsunami that's completely decimating the Republican party. This is only one element, but it's an important one, because the elitists are not going to be able to satisfy the racists.

All I want is some kind of border security - at every entry point to the US so that we at least KNOW who these characters are. I think you're better off having a way of keeping track of them, even if that inadvertently encourages more immigration. I'm not afraid of them damaging our economy or our society or our values. We have Republicans for that!

boris

completely decimating

LOL, don't know what it means do you.

noah

LOL. Steaming turd offers non-solution in a booming economy but manages not to notice it!

boris

A fence needs to be part of a comprehensive enforcable plan. Unfortunatly that means cooperation from union entrenched government bureaucracy, at least in the border states.

That might be possible but not as long as the only party willing to work on it is split between the principled and pragmatic or conservative and libertarian.

kim

You ain't seen a rabble rouser lately in the democratic Party, but that used to be standard fare. Then a few objected to the menu and got off the plantation. The Democrats haven't had a populist wing since I don't know when, and the closest they have now is what I'd term NeoNi**ahz but for editors. You are the Deaniac fringe. Pandered to by some for your attitude, wealth, and homogeneity of ideology. Y'all are white too, Panderboy.
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kim

The point is true that this is a hard nut to crack, and not enough meat inside to make anyone happy. There'll be pissed off squirrels everywhere over this one. Why do you think they waited for cold weather to get to it?

Anyone notice that most immigrants behave like squirrels?
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owl

I have an solution for that $18 billion that Rick mentions. Hire Mexicans to build the fence. You provide jobs and cut costs. Something for everyone. (Okay, couldn't resist)

Rick Ballard

Boris,

A fence would have all the utility of the Maginot Line. Running illegals in boats is just as easy as running them on land - maybe easier. The fact that we don't hear much about it doesn't mean that it's not happening.

More judges, detention centers and incentives revolving around proper use of guest worker documentation would work much better.

noah

Right wingers need to forget about deporting illegal aliens already established here. All we should really be asking for is border control from this day forward. This is essence of Bush's proposal.

Note to steaming turd: how does this proposal appeal to the ignorant, racist, homophobic Right?

boris

Running illegals in boats is just as easy as running them on land - maybe easier

Don't buy that logic. The quantity coming overland would look like a flotilla on water and boats ain't cheap. My point isn't the fence anyway.

A comprehensive approach would change the incentive equation and require cooperation of Mexico as well. That's why "throw 'em all out" can't work even if it really is the "right thing" in principle. An overland fence is just another factor in the equation.

Gary Maxwell

Rick has a point. Anyone ever been on the highway through Camp Pendleton in So Cal? You know those road signs that show a family running across the road? How do you think they got there? Boat to shore that is 150 yards away perhaps?

cathyf
That's a pipe dream. Not enough oil, not enough tourism, not enough anything to convert Mexico into anything close to a "rich country" or even a country with a majority middle class.
What incredibly racist claptrap. Mexico has everything needed to be rich -- industrious human beings, and completely adequate natural resources. The kleptocracy and the socialist nonsense are the only things holding them back. In a kleptocracy, the wealth that is stolen by the kleptocrats is trivial compared to the wealth never created because people don't bother to create wealth if it's just going to be stolen anyway.

Yeah, incredibly racist claptrap. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Jay Dee. I think I'll go lie down and have the vapors or something...

cathy :-)

david53

The Mexicans used to gather on their side of the border,wait for nightfall, then rush through the border. Running through people's back yards,down the streets, even up the freeways.Then came the fence to close off the metropolitan area and the crossers moved east into rugged country. Deaths were not uncommon and it now seems that Arizona has become the favorite crossing zone. It may be a long border but it's mostly desert on both sides. A couple hundred miles of wall would close off everything but desert.By water is logistically impractical,won't happen.

JayDee

booming economy

Noah, put down the Fox juice. Just because the millionaires are doubling their incomes every year doesnt mean average Americans are doing well. But keep carrying that water, dude. The Republican elitists milking America like a cash cow thank you for your passivity.

I do know what "decimation" means. The instability of the Pub coalition has been exposed. Their piggy leaders are going to jail faster than rap stars. And the American people are waking the hell up to what they let be done to them. No one likes to realize they've been had...but better to face it like adults. You may think I represent a Deaniac fringe, or whatever you call it, but like that weird family man from Vermont who managed to become a doctor AND a fiscally responsible governor, I'm a totally conventional average person. As are the people I live and work with - who basically share my attitudes and find them common sensical. But keep swallowing Bushian platitudes. After all, that's what made America great - blind followers who attack anyone who disagrees with their Dear Leaders.

kim

How can you stand living in a world of zombies?
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JayDee

Luckily, kim, and contrary to the magical thinking of hardcore "conservatives" (though I'm not sure that's an accurate description of the current Pub base), you all DON'T constitute the "world"....I know it's hard to get your head around it but the radical fringe thinking seen on rightwing blogs is a pretty minority viewpoint even here in America. And then of course there's the actual world, the majority of humankind that somehow manages to exist without the benefit of being American.....

kim

No, my point is that your rant sounds identical to that of all the hardcore BDS sufferers that are wandering around bleating your Deaniac nonsense. You're the one with the Dear Leader.
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JayDee

BDS? Haven't you all waked up yet to the fact that Bush is irrelevant???? He's a stumbling halfwit who can never run again. At this point he's quite useful to the Democrats, because every time he gets any airtime, people are reminded how humiliating it is to have this great country represented by such an incoherent, incompetent, detached little princeling.

I don't hate Bush. I feel sorry for him because it's so obvious he just wants to get back to training for the Ironman. This running the country thing is so over for him, no one likes him anymore and all his elitist pals who used to bail him out of stuff like this are either in jail, on their way to jail or under investigation. He's run another company into the ground - really his only talent - but there's no way to run away from it this time.

kim

CEO of the world and adding value daily. And you are a shareholder. Don't sell yet.
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kim

Look at all the added value from Hillary's Ex: barbarian's at the gates, bubbled markets, confused and savaged women.
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owl

" Look at all the added value from Hillary's Ex: barbarian's at the gates, bubbled markets, confused and savaged women."
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I swear you are getting funnier Kim since I liked your "nuts and pissed off squirrels".

Texas here, so I probably remember when you never saw a Mexican to watching some industries turn huge. Hard workers, loyal, sharing with close family ties. At some point when town and big business started using Mexicans, the doors flew off. They now sap our services. They have created gangs and someone told them they were "entitled".

I have always felt the US should have been doing more in Mexico for our neighbors and you can not know a good Mexican family (yes illegal) and not appreciate their problems.
But you can not escape the problems now created in the attitude of "entitlements" and depleting our services. So, I am in favor of trying to find some solutions.

For the FIRST time, I am in favor of closing the borders. That is why I think it is time. Why? All the above issues but mainly because we need to KNOW who is in this country. 9/11 made this a must do.

boris...."A comprehensive approach would change the incentive equation and require cooperation of Mexico as well. That's why "throw 'em all out" can't work even if it really is the "right thing" in principle. An overland fence is just another factor in the equation." This is so true and we can then handle what is coming in boats.

Okay....at least I have endorsed and offered my solutions.

kim

The problem has worsened immensely. By the way, the barbarian legacy of Bill was 9/11, not the less forceful immigrants.

The problem will not be ultimately solved until it is as desirable to live elsewhere as it is in the US. Many paths to that goal.
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