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November 02, 2005

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Marcel

Fred Barnes claimed on Fox News this past summer that he had known about Wilson's wife. Gordon Liddy claimed on Fox News last week that "everyone in Washington knew".

Maybe they, like Scooter Libby, will have difficulty remembering who they first heard it from and when.

Creepy Dude

Andrea M. remains unverified with me since in Hardball transcripts (which are publicly available online) she said the exact opposite. Prove it to me.

Sidey-sure it was so well known-Cooper, his colleague at Time who was actually writing a story, had to find out from Rove. Why didn't Rove just tell him talk to Hugh?

Peretz-do Plame's neighbors live in Georgetown? I saw them on TV proclaiming their ignorance. So maybe he needs to back down from the universality of the claim.

As for May-he's never had the guts to repeat or explain that claim. Plus he's a moron. Nuff said.

Creepy Dude

P.S. None of this helps Libby (or Cheney) anyway. Don't blame me-take it up with Fitzgerald.

Larry Liberal

Oh, reporters knowing Plane's identity helps Libby dramatically. It goes to motive. Why lie about something that was not a crime to begin with? To cover up for Cheney? Why, if no crime? Plus there is nothing wrong with Cheney discussing Plame with Libby in context of refuting Joe Wilson's proven lies. Plus if reporters knew beforehand then there is a possibility that Libby heard it from reporters around the same time as he heard it from government sources.

Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Not even close.

By the way Creepy, no one cares if it is still unverified with you. But thanks for sharing.

Creepy Dude

Plus Cheney didn't know until the CIA told him. Libby himself didn't know until Cheney then told him-(according to his notes)-which he then forgot-and relearned from Russert-(according to his testimony).

So there's less knowledge in the corridors of power than at a Georgetown cocktail party?

How comforting.

clarice

It doesn't help Libby if the charge that he was intentionally hiding the name of his sources is true, but frankly I'm unpersuaded from all the circumstances, that those snippets of conversations in the indictment represent more than his state of mind when he talked to reporters. In any event it shows how hoked up the entire demand for a special prosecutor was--and especially when so much of that was from this very same press corps.

Geek, Esq.

I see a lot of vague statements about what "people" knew but not a lot of "I knew this on XXXX date and I heard it from XXXXXX." May's statement being the exception, not the rule.

JJ

This is not reporters who knew Plame's status, but veteran former coverts talking about the condition of Plame’s cover with her neighbors.

I mention only because it’s a scratch that itches --

From the Washington Times, July 15, 2005, there is Fred Rustmann saying:

"She made no bones about the fact that she was an agency employee and her husband was a diplomat," Fred Rustmann, a covert agent from 1966 to 1990, told The Washington Times.

"Her neighbors knew this, her friends knew this, his friends knew this. A lot of blame could be put on to central cover staff and the agency because they weren't minding the store here. ... The agency never changed her cover status."

Contrast that with 60 Minutes and one of its main sources on the Wilson segment from last Sunday. Here’s what they said:

“It's a spy agency. And you don't expose people working for a spy agency. And no one knew that she was working for a spy agency until she was exposed,” says Jim Marcinkowski, a deputy city attorney in Royal Oak, Mich. In the late 1980’s, he was a covert CIA agent spying in Central America..."

TP

I would think that Libby would be interested in getting Jill Abramson under oath because of the reference in the lost notebook to a source who was "not Libby". Judy's email to Calame outing Abramson as her editor is what caught my interest. If you read her whole email, it is very threatening. Plus, Pinch is now apparently making nice to her after letting Maureen Dowd rape her while the editors held her down

TP

But, then, I am new to this and might not understand NYT tribal rituals.

Rita

I also heard Fred Barnes on Fox News on 10/28 or 10/29/05 state that he knew. He was quickly cut off so he did not elaborate. Quelle dommage.

JayDee

Fred Barnes claimed on Fox News this past summer that he had known about Wilson's wife. Gordon Liddy claimed on Fox News last week that "everyone in Washington knew".

Considering the fact that Cheney frequently lunches at Fox, and has used Fox as his own private propaganda mouthpiece almost from its inception, this isn't exactly proof of anything Libby might like to prove. It would be interesting to have them explain themselves under oath at trial, though considering the slippery ethics of pubbies these days, even that might tell us little.

There's a real tone deafness amongst conservatives these days. A federal prosecutor concludes that her identity was classified and NOT common knowledge, even goes so far as to re-interview her neighbors to re-affirm this information...yet conservative bloggers continue to assert the opposite. Let Libby's lawyers try this at trial...lol.

demosthenes

Why isn’t Joe Wilson being prosecuted for lying to Congress?

-demosthene

demosthenes

Why isn’t Joe Wilson being prosecuted for lying to Congress?

-demosthenes

Appalled Moderate

if everyone in DC knew, how come Judy Miller (well connected in WMD and GOP circles with many sources) did not know on June 23?

demosthenes

Why isn’t Joe Wilson being prosecuted for lying to Congress?

-demosthenes

Syl

The 'crime' Fitz was investigating, since it seems the IIPA did not apply, was revealing classified information. Which, to whit, was that mrs. wilson worked for the CIA. Necessary and sufficient.

Revealing 'covertness' would just be a bonus.

So, all we need to know is whether reporters knew mrs wilson's wife valery worked for the CIA. Not necessarily what else they knew.

Interesting to find out who, how many, if any, if only because Fitz said this 'was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community'.

But, as we know, Fitz couldn't fish around for knowledge among journalists. So how would he know.

We also know, that even if 'knowledge' of her CIA employment was out there (and who would believe an egotist like Wilson, anyway?) it does not affect the illegality of an official leak of her CIA affiliation.

Except it does help in explaining some of Libby's testimony (which and what, not sure though) if he did, indeed, hear of her CIA connection going around unofficially.

And the knowledge of Val's CIA employment is not enough for people to figure out she was involved in sending Wilson to Niger. Note that even though Andrea found out low-level operatives in the CIA had sent him, and she knew Val was CIA, she still didn't make the connection.

Therefore any reporter who knew she was involved in the Niger trip didn't gain this knowledge independently.

BUT where the gossip re Valery's CIA connection would have been important is in diffusing the public cry for an investigation and a special prosecutor to boot.

Not that it might not have happened anyway, but since Woodward reported the damage of the outing was minimal, the whole matter might have been dropped.

So, reporters knowing her affiliation with CIA is really too little too late.

Except I want to know anyway.


Geek, Esq.

if everyone in DC knew, how come Judy Miller (well connected in WMD and GOP circles with many sources) did not know on June 23?

Well, Judy had been out of the country.

I'd really like to see some dates attached to this purported knowledge by reporters. If it became common knowledge amongst reporters by early July, that really proves nothing other than that there was a very effective leaking campaign underway.

TP

Syl,

So, what if Kristof and his editor knew the whole story?

JayDee

...since Woodward reported the damage of the outing was minimal

Little problem there. Woodward Lied

The CIA has not conducted a formal damage assessment, as is routinely done in cases of espionage and after any legal proceedings have been exhausted.

Now, why would Woodward do that? Is bald faced perfidy a new kind of rite of passage for newly crowned Pub Shills?

Appalled Moderate

geek:

When we talk of knowledge in terms of this issue, I assume it is knowledge of long standing (as implied in the Hugh Sidey quote), not of more recent vintage. As you say, if folks were learning of this back in early June, that does not really help the WH on the charge that they were leaking the name.

Syl

TP

"So, what if Kristof and his editor knew the whole story?"

I don't think Wilson was telling them Valery was involved in sending him. Something he denies anyway.

If Kristof and his editor learned anything, they may have learned she was CIA. Which is no different than the supposed gossip going around anyway.

Still, it was fresh, and Kristof could have told someone.

But there's the notion of the 'involved in sending Wilson to Niger' to get around. And I don't think we can get around that.

GEB4000

JayDee:

Fitz can say whatever he wants outside of a courtroom like everybody else. He knows he's never going to get a conviction for leaking classified information no matter what evidence he has now or in the future. His case would fall apart as soon as Joe and Valerie and her superiors hit the witness stand.

MeTooThen

JayDee,

Easy on the Kool-Aid.

Fox News was the personal propaganda mouthpiece of the VPOTUS since (almost) its inception?

That statement is nuts.

Really.

And I am being generous here.

When you write nonsense like that the immediate response is to think of you as a juvenile, hysterical, insulting jerk.

Really.

Now, there are no doubt others who believe such piffle, but they aren't taken seriously either, except in their own echo chambers.

Just sayin'.

Syl

JayDee

"Woodward Lied"

There's a difference between a formal statement from the CIA and an informal one.

Hmmmm, with all the sources Woodward has that go deeper inside than most others, I wonder if he knew Valery was CIA too.

arrowhead

While people debate who knew what when, what the meaning of "it" is in Libby's testimony and who may or may not be called to testify, the MSM moves on to the next pseudo scandal.

Ref: the following article in this morning's Wash Post by Dana Priest
"CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons"
"Debate Is Growing Within Agency About Legality and Morality of Overseas System Set Up After 9/11." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

For what it's worth, here's my tin-foil-hat view of events. It's just too convenient that this story breaks out of the CIA following the implosion of the Fitzgerald investigation and its "no there, there" indictment of Libby. Victoria Toensing opined a few days ago that the whole Wilson/Plame/Niger/Forged Docs business was a CIA black ops job intended to either weaken or take down this president during this particular war. Now we have this latest "revelation" to occupy the media with the hope of lighting a spark in the public's attention. Does anyone see a trend here besides business as usual within the beltway?

Gabriel Sutherland

Cliff May tells us more about the person that revealed Plame's status to him.

Male, Democrat, Friend of Cliff's, and a former government employee.

Creepy Dude

AM-I wouldn't trust Sidey. Contra TM-he's not from the New York Times-Sidey is from Time Magazine. i.e. he works the same place as Cooper.Cooper has testified he learned about Plame from Rove. So I'm a little skeptical of old Hugh's claim that "in his world" they all knew it from way back.

cathyf

creepy dude wrote all the stuff in blockquotes:

Andrea M. remains unverified with me since in Hardball transcripts (which are publicly available online) she said the exact opposite. Prove it to me.
Fork out the $3 for lexis ala carte and find out for yourself.
Sidey-sure it was so well known-Cooper, his colleague at Time who was actually writing a story, had to find out from Rove. Why didn't Rove just tell him talk to Hugh?
How would Rove know that Sidey knew?
Peretz-do Plame's neighbors live in Georgetown?
No, the Wilson's don't live in Georgetown. They live in a neighborhood called Colony Hill in the Foxhall area. Here's a map. Interestingly enough, the Roves live there too, and the Roves and Wilsons attend the same church. Here's a fascinating neighborhood vignette: PALISADES DISPATCH: Joe and Val’s Noisy Neighbors, Amalie and the Death of a Party
As for May-he's never had the guts to repeat or explain that claim. Plus he's a moron.
When you run out of lies, ignorance and deliberate obtusness, there's always ad hominen.
Nuff said.
Well past enough, I'd say.

cathy :-)

Syl

Gabriel

I didn't read his statement as identifying his source as male.

BurbankErnie

Jim,
You are correct. So another CIA Leak, this time to show the GWB Admin holding who knows who, who knows where, in Secret Prisons!

Wonder when Harry Reid, John Kerry and Kos are going to comment on this atrosity?

clarice

Jim Marcinkowski is part of the anti-neo con crowd of ex-CIA agents. I'd discount everything he says as ridiculously biased. You might as well quote LCJohnson .

And as someone noted at Kristof's first reported meeting with Wilson, a lunch after a DNC meeting, Plame was present.It doesn't prove he knew she was in the CIA, but undoubtedly she was along to add credence to Wilson's report. And the way to do that was to explain her expertise in the area.

BurbankErnie

Nice smackdown cathyf:)

creepy dude, quit moving the goalposts, try using facts, not feelings.

Creepy Dude

CathyF-has the AM quote been Lexis certified? Because Andrea Mitchell said the exact opposite over and over. So I still don't think the quote actually exists as verifiable fact.

BTW Cliff May seriously advanced the idea that David Corn outed Valerie Plame. I'm sorry-but he's a moron. Sometimes ad hom is just the right way to go.

P.S. was leaking Plame's name an ad hom attack on Wilson?

Patrick R. Sullivan

'A federal prosecutor concludes that her identity was classified and NOT common knowledge...'

So he asserted, but he also asserted that Libby told Judy Miller that Plame worked in 'a bureau of the CIA'. And, Judy said something very different in her article about her testimony.

This all looks very bad for Fitzgerald's integrity.

JayDee

MeTooThen, if it weren't for TM's generosity in allowing dissident voices here (a true rarity in the rightwing blogosphere), this would be an echo chamber as well. And you'd probably never notice.

Don't tell me what to say about FoxNews. I actually have excellent sources in the general workplace at Fox, who understand - as do ALL Fox employees - that their primary mission is to disseminate Pub propaganda. Do you not know Roger Ailes' pedigree? Do you think he had a midlife epiphany that he should become an objective journalistic font? Stop insulting your own intelligence.

Are there other news stations where employees must go into office lockdowns because of visits by Cheney & his security entourage? I think you know the answer.

This admin, more than any other in our history, has manipulated and abused press freedom in America. Amusingly, they have fashioned an ingenious cover for themselves while so doing - the carefully cultivated paranoia amongst pub acolytes that the boogeyman "msm" (which FoxNews, no matter how humongous it becomes, will have permanent immunity from somehow) is out to get them.

Creepy Dude

Sullivan-questioning Fiztgerald's integrity looks bad for your sanity.

Creepy Dude

Ok-TM has verified he has a Lexis transcript. Like JimE I admit I was wrong. However, Andrea Mitchell lacks all further credibility as a reporter.

The Unbeliever

Are there other news stations where employees must go into office lockdowns because of visits by Cheney & his security entourage?

I'm pretty sure any office where Cheney visits has to go into lockdown/security mode. But why do you think Cheney would bother visiting CNN, MSNBC, or CBS instead of the news station with the highest ratings?

I assume Cheney's spare time for interviews is limited, so it only makes sense he'd spend it at the place where he'd get the most eyeballs for his message. That's not "manipulating the media", that's time management combined with marketing saavy. If MSNBC ever managed to get their ratings out of the gutter and outdid Fox, I'm sure they'd be going into a lot more lockdowns as well.

clarice

If people were hired on tv for their reporting skills, would they have to spend so much time at the hairdressers?

JayDee

You misunderstand, Unbeliever. Cheney doesn't only come for interviews. He comes to confer with Ailes. The head in the sand thing is very comfy for you all, but it doesn't bear any connection to reality.

cathyf
if everyone in DC knew, how come Judy Miller (well connected in WMD and GOP circles with many sources) did not know on June 23?
Well, one plausible reading of Miller's "rorschack test" notebook is that she did know. Or that she "knew" that Victoria Flame worked for INR. Since INR's official name does include the word "bureau", that guess is arguably slightly more plausible than Fitzgerald's guess. And it's just as plausible, given her notes, to guess that she told Libby rather than to guess that Libby told her.

cathy :-)

Syl

Jim

I agree. This has become open warfare with the CIA.

I thinking a lot of people are waking up to the reality behind anonymous sources.

Lion

Bulletin for Creepy Dude: Cheney doesn't need any help. Woodward said the CIA has done a damage assessment; a formal damage assessment is not underway, or at least has not been reported. I believe that disclosing classified information is not, except under narrowly circumscribed conditions, a crime; if anyone knows to the contrary, please cite the statute. Has it been established that the fact of her employment was "classified?" Would it have been a crime to disclose that George Tenet worked at the CIA? I have known a number of people over the past 30+ years who worked at the CIA and let it be known. How did they differ from Plame? Trotting out neighbors who didn't know of her employment is a bit like the Irishman, accused of murdering his wife, who called a bunch of witnesses to testify that they hadn't seen him do it. The highlight of this trial, for me, is going to be the defense calling Joe Wilson to the stand and cross-examining him under oath--an event that has not yet occurred, and will be more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

Syl

JayDee

You married to Etienne? She also has sources inside Foxnews. Hmmmmmmm.

"their primary mission is to disseminate Pub propaganda."

No, it's their point of view. To you it's propaganda because it's not YOUR point of view.

Nothing nefarious going on.

BTW

..."TM's generosity in allowing dissident voices here"...

I agree. And it's good for all of us to argue back and forth sometimes. But each of us has to determine who, on either side, argues in good faith..or just argues.

Granted, we also must understand that some argue in good faith in some comments but in others go off the rails. But then, experience in following these threads should guide us all.

Anyway, sometimes it's just for fun.

And Kerry still sucks eggs. :)

Sue

Jay Dee,

I've often wondered why everyone is so worried about what Fox News is up to. Do you have someone forcing you to watch it? You know Chris Matthews is a shill for the democrats, Keith Olberman their #1 front man, yet Fox News is your whipping boy. :) Are we still guessing your party affiliation?

Geek, Esq.

Does anyone actually watch MSNBC?

Creepy Dude

Hey Lion-it turns out we're running a goddamn Gulag literally using prisons in the former Soviet Bloc and Cheney is on the Hill fighting against an anti-torture amendment that 90 senators voted for. The man is truly a disgrace-maybe he thinks he has to destroy America to save it,but there's more destruction than saving.

Gary Maxwell

JayDee says:

objective journalistic font?

So JayDee when did you morph into Ponce de Leon in search of this mythical fountain?

Where pray tell could we find such a font of which you speak? Dare say you CBS ( Rathergate) or CNN ( making a deal with the devil Saddam )? Enlighten us, and try to do so in 25 words or less.

Syl

Lion

'"Has it been established that the fact of her employment was "classified?"'

Yes.

CIA employees have various statuses. If the status is not classified, go ahead and tell people you work for the CIA. If the status is classified, even the fact you work for the CIA is classified.

Valery's status was of the classified variety.

Creepy Dude

I have read nothing from Jaydee that indicates he couldn't be a libertarian leaning Republican who thinks Cheney and Bush are incompetent and dangerous fools.

If you've read anything from me that indicates otherwise, you misinterpreted.

JayDee

Chris Matthews is a shill for the democrats

Matthews tacks like a sailboat to keep his whore credentials intact at all times. Olbermann does seem to skew to the left. But really there is no equivalent to Fox News's pronounced and unremitting bias, and there never has been in the history of televised news.

Dude, don't try to get any pubs to criticize any unethical or unAmerican behavior by this administration. There ARE no longer any American principles in Publand - except an undying faith in the glories of military domination. Although they believe in sending American troops to their deaths in order to impose democracy on foreign nations, they do not care how the US is perceived throughout the civilized world. It's a strange kind of self serving isolationism cum nation building adventurism. Another strange ingredient in the modern rightwing brew.

Creepy Dude

So right JayDee-when the last's time any Republican (or Democrat FTM) actually used the term "the Republic"?

Does anyone care about the concept anymore?

TP

Cicero?

Creepy Dude

Interesting TP. But Abe Lincoln a real "Replubic"-an knew what it meant.

Of course they all say it when they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, but they just mumble the words, and the Pledge is actually an anti-constitutional concept anyway.

larwyn

Jim wrote:
"While people debate who knew what when, what the meaning of "it" is in Libby's testimony and who may or may not be called to testify, the MSM moves on to the next pseudo scandal.

Ref: the following article in this morning's Wash Post by Dana Priest
"CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons"
"Debate Is Growing Within Agency About Legality and Morality of Overseas System Set Up After 9/11." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644"

This outright attack is on "Executive Power" and the nomination of Judge Alito to SCOTUS.

This is meant to prove that BUSH et al are torturers/abusers of civil rights. Just listen to Schumer, Kennedy, Reid on the balance of SCOTUS and the danger to all "civil rights" if Alito
is confirmed to replace the "moderate" Sandra Day O'Connor.

FYI - "West Wing" episode on Monday, Oct 31st had 6 major character state (off handedly as a
FACT everyone knows) in first 12 minutes of the show:
"THIS IS A 60% PRO CHOICE COUNTRY"
Another direct attack on any conservative SCOTUS appointment.

Any one out want to bet that "torture" show scripts are in NETWORK hoppers?

Corporations pay big $$$ for PRODUCT PLACEMENT in movies and hit tv shows - LEFTY PRODUCTS:
ANTI-BUSH
ANTI-CONSERVATIVE
ANTI-CHRISTIAN
ANTI-US MILITARY
ANTI-AMERICA
are being placed in fictional shows
for free.

Wonder what they would charge Conservatives for truly equal
"PRODUCT PLACEMENT"?

Gary Maxwell

I have read nothing from Jaydee that indicates he couldn't be a libertarian leaning Republican ( with apparent tougue in cheek from the GEEK)

Lookee Lookee Here is some "global test" stuff without having to change threads or even scroll back:

Although they believe in sending American troops to their deaths in order to impose democracy on foreign nations, they do not care how the US is perceived throughout the civilized world. (spouted proudly by JayDee)

Wilson's a liar

Well, since Wilson had already blabbed about it to the Kerry campaign, as revealed

Joe Wilson is still trying to nail Rove - he was raving about him last night on Larry King. He must be SO disappointed that Fitz only got Scooter Libby! This will not make him a permanent hero to the Left. Only Rove's scalp will do that.

Gabriel Sutherland

Syl: Cliff May informs us that his source for Plame's status is a male in his 09/29/2003 NRO article.

That wasn't news to me. I had been told that — but not by anyone working in the White House. Rather, I learned it from someone who formerly worked in the government and he mentioned it in an offhand manner, leading me to infer it was something that insiders were well aware of.

OT: Is it "S-Eye-L" or "S-ill"? Just curious.

Truzenzuzex

JayDee:

MeTooThen, if it weren't for TM's generosity in allowing dissident voices here (a true rarity in the rightwing blogosphere), this would be an echo chamber as well. And you'd probably never notice.
Let's give equal time there, JayDee. There is not a lot of room on the moonbat side of the blogosphere for dissent, either. About even, I'd say, on both sides.
Don't tell me what to say about FoxNews. I actually have excellent sources in the general workplace at Fox, who understand - as do ALL Fox employees - that their primary mission is to disseminate Pub propaganda. Do you not know Roger Ailes' pedigree? Do you think he had a midlife epiphany that he should become an objective journalistic font? Stop insulting your own intelligence.
Oh, please, not more "unnamed sources". So I guess we are just supposed to accept this as a fact and repent, all the while taking a big sip of the left's Kool-Aid.

Not.

cathyf
And the knowledge of Val's CIA employment is not enough for people to figure out she was involved in sending Wilson to Niger. Note that even though Andrea found out low-level operatives in the CIA had sent him, and she knew Val was CIA, she still didn't make the connection.
Syl, you are making the error of arguing from the specific to the general. Just because Mitchell didn't make the connection without access to the alleged leak doesn't mean that other reporters couldn't and didn't. It also begs the question of what reporters with access to non-WH leakers would have been able to figure out.

cathy :-)

topsecretk9

Generalization by John Gibson:

Cheney's deputy wasn't charged with outing a CIA agent because she had been outed already by her husband, Joe Wilson, who constantly introduced her as his CIA wife.

===Be nice if he explained this

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174218,00.html

Jim E.

Since Andrea Mitchell, for some reason, is now all of a sudden considered a respectable, unimpeachable source, perhaps you'd like to read what she said on Hardball on July 14, 2005:

"The other thing is a lot of misreporting, including in some of the papers today about what her role was. She was back in the States, had been back in the States since 1997. But she was still covert. She was considered a CIA officer, and a covert officer at Langley. Now she had previously been what was considered under non-official cover, which meant that she was of the deepest type of undercover spy overseas, meaning she had a job in a CIA front organization, a company that took years and years to establish. And that revealing her name was serious because anyone who ever dealt with that company or with her, any foreign national CIA agent, agent that is a term used for foreigners, that person or persons could then be suspect and could then be under life-threatening conditions."

JayDee

Truez, can't provide any proof of my knowledge, so have to let it lie. But are you of the opinion that Fox provides an unbiased perspective on the news? If you can at least admit it skews hard to the right - as most wingers I encounter are willing to finally admit - do you believe there is another equivalent news outlet that provides a similarly monolithic skewing left?

It's of interest for two reasons - one, the pathetic wingnut reliance on whining about "liberal msm" as part of the grand conspiracy against their one party monopoly that fuels their paranoia and two, the many recent revelations we have had about the way this administration has abused its press relationships to propagandize to the American people.

Gary Maxwell

do you believe there is another equivalent news outlet that provides a similarly monolithic skewing left?

How about all of them? Put PBS and NPR on the list too.

You really need to get out more.

MeTooThen

JayDee,

FWIW,

I did not suggest you stop posting here, or anywhere for that matter.

But your flair for writing hyperbole, fantasy, and vitriol is astonishing.

Really.

"Don't tell me what to say about FoxNews. I actually have excellent sources in the general workplace at Fox, who understand - as do ALL Fox employees - that their primary mission is to disseminate Pub propaganda."

Like I said.

Whatever.

Please my friend, you go.

Just do it.

But don't expect people to take you seriously.

Just sayin'.

Jim E.

Here's another fun quote. Here's Howard Kurtz in a Oct 5, 2003 WashPost column:
"Novak said last week that if he revealed his sources, 'I would leave journalism.'"

Why hasn't Novak left?

TP

Creepy,
I am a big fan of Abe, but I wouldn't want to be an advocate for his record on civil liberties during the Civil War. :^)

Creepy Dude

Good point TP-too bad Cheney is trying to reclaim only that part of his mantle.

Gabriel Sutherland

Jim E.: That seems like a silly question. Especially when you already know the answer.

Truzenzuzex

JayDee:

Truez, can't provide any proof of my knowledge, so have to let it lie. But are you of the opinion that Fox provides an unbiased perspective on the news? If you can at least admit it skews hard to the right - as most wingers I encounter are willing to finally admit - do you believe there is another equivalent news outlet that provides a similarly monolithic skewing left?
I'd say that Fox is definitely to the right of CBS, ABC and NBC. From where I am coming from, though, that gets them just a little past neutral. In my opinion, the other networks skew further left than Fox does to the right.

But there is no mistaking a slight rightward bias at Fox, pronounced in the opinion shows and barely noticable in their hard news. On the other hand, I can listen to any of the other major networks and cringe at the hard news bias every time. Their opinion shows are generally approximately as far left as Fox is right.

Frankly, the leftward hard news reporting from the networks is what is so pronounced. Fox generally has more opinion shows and a much higher viewership than the opinion shows on the left, so that's what Fox's opposition always cites as proof of their bias. Not fair, but there you go.

It's of interest for two reasons - one, the pathetic wingnut reliance on whining about "liberal msm" as part of the grand conspiracy against their one party monopoly that fuels their paranoia and two, the many recent revelations we have had about the way this administration has abused its press relationships to propagandize to the American people.
I would agree that conservatives complain too much about the mainstream media. It is a fact of life that they are favorable to the left, and we really should either be fighting them on that turf or quit whining. With the advent of talk radio and Fox's opinion juggernaut, I'd say the right has a reasonably fair opportunity to fight the MSM's bias.

As to the part of your comment that suggests some kind of abuse of press relationships by the administration, I'll just say that seems conspiratorial and absurd, and likely based on one too many sips from the lefty partisan well.

Geek, Esq.

"Novak said last week that if he revealed his sources, 'I would leave journalism.'"

Why hasn't Novak left?

You can't leave where you never were.

cathyf

Syl responds to Lion:

Lion

'"Has it been established that the fact of her employment was "classified?"'

Yes.

CIA employees have various statuses. If the status is not classified, go ahead and tell people you work for the CIA. If the status is classified, even the fact you work for the CIA is classified.

Valery's status was of the classified variety.

What seems to be true, though, is that while Plame's employment was classified secret, it was misclassified secret. It is absolutely clear to me that there are numerous regulations, executive orders, and contractural arrangements which are violated when someone misuses any classified information, whether it is misclassified or not. I have not found anyone who can point to a law, however, that is violated. The Espionage Act, which is most commonly cited, has a safe harbor for disclosing information where the reasonable person would not anticipate a national security problem with the disclsure. Everything else that I've seen cited is an executive order, or the wording of the agreement signed when a person gets the security clearance.

I've asked a couple of times -- does anybody know of a law which covers disclosure of misclassified information?

cathy :-)

Geek, Esq.

Again, the time frame is absolutely crucial in all of this.

And Bush-backers should be careful with what they ask for.

If Libby's defense is going to be "I thought all the reporters knew--I mean, we were spreading that information to every two-bit press hack inside the Beltway!" then there may be other problems.

Lion

Syl, I don't doubt you are correct, but what is your source for saying that Plame's status was classified? And what statute makes it a crime to disclose it? Creepy Dude, I certainly hope the accounts of the secret prisons are correct. And I think you're missing your cue: When Fitz fired his popgun, you were supposed to say, "curses--foiled again!"

b

JayDee,

"But are you of the opinion that Fox provides an unbiased perspective on the news?"

Are you of the opinion that anyone does, or is even capable of? Quite a naive perspective from such an obviously sophistimicated operator...

Creepy Dude

"I certainly hope the accounts of the secret prisons are correct."

Do you mean A. before I start railing against them and later have to retract when it was all just hurtful lies against the WH or B. you really hope we have secret prisons?

Truzenzuzex

Cathy:

I've asked a couple of times -- does anybody know of a law which covers disclosure of misclassified information?
I would guess that such a circumstance would fall under the rubric of prosecutorial discretion.

Sue

Jay Dee,

The answer is to tune into CNN and quit worrying about the bias at Fox and MSNBC. :) What is that you say? CNN is also biased? What to do? I got it. Do something besides being spoon fed by any of the news media. Get out there and read everyone and everything and make up your own mind. And stop trying to feed us the DNC talking points, especially about Fox News. Deal?

clarice

Off point, but I want to bring your attention to this Zell Miller article in which he argues that this case is a powerful argument for extending the law which prevents CIA agents from interfering in domestic politics to their spouses..
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/1105/02edmiller.html?COXnetJSessionIDbuild102=DpICsoeXn1GNFXprsEA1AZ9UiQg63kGGuelt0fndf1mfmO3I9OBY!64096873&UrAuth=aN%60NUOcNVUbTTUWUXUTUZTZU_UWUbU]UZUaU_UcTYWVVZV&urcm=y

Gabriel Sutherland

Geek, Esq.: If there is anything in a Libby defense about Plame's status being known in Washington circles it would revolve around a timeline that predates the Bush team taking control of the White House in Jan 2001.

Lion: I do not know Syl's source for Plame's "classified" status, but Fitzgerald makes it awfully clear in the indictment and the press conference announcing the indictment.

Jim Hu

Typepad seems to be rejecting my trackback">http://dimer.tamu.edu/simplog/archive.php?blogid=3&pid=2649">trackback ping. Excerpt:

The sheer number of people in the loop who knew the identity of Ms Wilson would deter me from expecting cover from the CIA. The harm to the agency isn't so much in the revelation of her identity as in the exposure of how badly the CIA kept secrets internally and in its dealings with the White House. And that's something that should come out...so it can be fixed.

cathyf
I would guess that such a circumstance would fall under the rubric of prosecutorial discretion.
Really? I ask, quite startled. If there are 2 laws (Esp Act and IIPA) which have explicit "safe havens" for disclosing an intelligence employee's employment when it is misclassified secret, and there are other laws where there is no safe haven mentioned one way or another, then I could see that as prosecutorial descretion. But if there aren't any other laws, or there aren't any other laws that lack the safe haven, are you really saying that a prosecutor has the descretion to pursue people whose alleged violations are protected by an explicit safe haven?

I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding you here... What you seem to be saying is that prosecutors get to make up whatever laws they want, and unless they are reined in later by a court, the legislatures writing and voting upon laws which say specific things are de facto irrelevant to the process of making laws. Really?

cathy :-)

clarice

Cathy, the prosecutor always has considerable discretion into whether to charge or for what--see Sandy Docs in Socks Nerger, for example.
He removed highly classified documents and destroyed them in the course of a Congressional hearing in which those documents were relevant..and he is charges with far less than he seems to have been guilty of.
Fitz catches Harkin's staff illegally taping an opponents strategy meeting and files no charges..
It is a every day occurrence albeit usually on less visible offenses.

JayDee

Truez, no abuses by the admin? I guess you missed the part where they were paying reporters to create propaganda last summer and were falsely portraying government generated propaganda as objective news? If you feel like denying it, remember they've admitted to it. And we all know the kind of unholy alliance they had with Judy Miller, making sure her WMD propaganda got front page play in time for Sunday morning news shows - propaganda they then referenced on their Sunday morning appearances.

CNN is not reliably affiliated with any political viewpoint, nor is MSNBC, although MSNBC does air politically skewed shows - from both right and left. No other network is presided over by a former political party operative. Only Fox.

Don't worry, Sue, I get around quite well. I n fact, my interest in tv news is from a sociological perspective, as I get 95% of all my news from the trusty Internets. Like most non-wingnuts, I like to sample all areas of the spectrum because unlike in Wingnuttia, the mere validation of my own viewpoint is of no interest to me. It has become theatre of the absurd in recent years to listen to winger voiceboxes trip over themselves as they proclaim silmultaneously that they are the most important, popular voices in the media but that they are also bitterly oppressed by the boogeyman "librul msm". Stop whining. Pick which cake you want to have and just eat it already.

cathyf

This is one of those things that has been bugging me for awhile...

Folks, when you have a link that is more than trivial length, enter it like this:

<a href="http://www.blahblahblah target="_blank">some nice words and spaces</a>

All you need to do is to copy that line into your favorite text editor, and then when you want a link, paste the link into the http://www.blahblahblah part, and the descriptive text into the some nice words and spaces part.

If you are posting a link on another site (blogspot) then leave the "target=_blank" thingy out:

<a href="http://www.blahblahblah>some nice words and spaces</a>

And (hint, hint) clarice, your link would be: Zell Miller: Rule can head off dirty tricks at CIA

cathy :-)

Appalled Moderate

Clarice:

The more intriguing thing about that Zell article you cite (which I read in the dead tree version) is that he implies strongly that the real leaker in this case is Valerie Plame and that Joe Wilson is her proxy. I am curious what info he is using to arrive at that conclusion, and whether it is from something that got circulated to senators but not to the rest of us. I think he comes pretty close to the libel law in that article if he is wrong about this.

Gabriel Sutherland

JayDee: Of course CNN and MSNBC can't be slanted to one political party over another. However, when the President of CNN is sleeping in the Lincoln bedroom while the network he oversees is covering the White House it certainly rings a few bells.

Furthermore, when that same CNN President is hired by MSNBC to be its president you can't help but ring a few more bells.

cathyf
Cathy, the prosecutor always has considerable discretion into whether to charge or for what--see Sandy Docs in Socks Berger, for example.

...

Fitz catches Harkin's staff illegally taping an opponents strategy meeting and files no charges..

Yeah, but those are cases of a prosecutor chosing not to prosecute. When a prosecutor chooses to prosecute for something that the legislature has taken care to legislate is not a crime, that is a whole 'nother ball game. It's one thing to ignore a law (happens all the time.) It is quite different to adopt the Red Queen System where the prosecutor becomes the law.

Of course if there is some other law out there introduces ambiguity, then yeah, I can see the possibility of descretion. But you have to have something to introduce an ambiguity to get the descretion, right?

cathy :-)

clarice

Cathy, I'm a technoklutz --I don't even know what a tect editor is let alone where to find one. I can try tiny url--AP, I think his suspicion that that is what happened is more than warranted. I'm sorking up something on that and will post it when it's up. In any event I certainlyhope they sue Miller (and that he makes public all the discovery.) What do you think are the odds of that?

Cecil Turner

It has become theatre of the absurd in recent years to listen to winger voiceboxes trip over themselves as they proclaim silmultaneously that they are the most important, popular voices in the media but that they are also bitterly oppressed by the boogeyman "librul msm".

Puh-leeze. They're biased and getting worse. Per the latest Pew Report:

Six-in-ten see news organizations as politically biased, up from 53% two years ago. More than seven-in-ten (72%) say news organizations tend to favor one side, rather than treat all sides fairly; that is the largest number ever expressing that view.
This one didn't ask about direction of bias, but in the previous one:
When it comes to describing the press, twice as many say news organizations are “liberal” (51%) as say they are “conservative” (26%), while 14% say neither phrase applies.
As far as Fox goes, I just know one of their reporters, but he's a foam-at-the-mouth liberal.

Florence Schmieg

Judy Miller worked out of New York City and lives there I believe. She may not interact with the D.C. social circle in Georgetown and othe D.C. areas although she certainly did interact with the White House and Capitol Hill folks for her stories. But maybe not the social circuit??

JayDee

Cecil, Greg Kelly's not exactly a foaming mouth liberal, though can see where he seems like it in that whacko environment. More like a conservative Dem or moderate Pub. Great guy, though, and a good reporter.

JayDee

The propaganda delivery mechanism of the modern day Pubbies is really worth studying, although I think the discovery of its techniques will soon begin to weaken it. Every day the RNC churns out the talk points and disseminates them to all their propaganda outlets, where they are aggressively marketed all day.

Yesterday the TP was BIRD FLU IS COMING BUT DADDY BUSH WILL SAVE YOU!!!!!!!! Even though actual news events of the day interceded, Seany Waterboy dutifully carried on with the scintillating mixture of fear and Bush adoration. Today they are trotting out DEMS AGREED WITH US ON SADDAM AND WMDS. Scotty does his puppet performance at precisely the same moment Oxycotin King is spouting almost the same quotes. It's a system that relies on good centralized control and a dumb as dirt listening audience. Perfect for our era of corporate controlled media combined with the veterans of our failed educational system.

Lion

For Trumanzex, re prosecutorial discretion: I recognize that prosecutors have enormous discretion about what to prosecute and what not to prosecute, but it is still the law that they have no discretion to prosecute anything that is not a crime. Crimes fall basically into two categories: Common-law crimes (murder, rape, arson, mayhem, rape, sodomy, larceny,manslaughter, battery--known to law students by the mnemonic acronym "Mr. and Mrs. Lamb) and all others. The "all others" must be specifically enumerated by statute. I know of no statue that would make a crime out of the truthful statement by a government official that Plame worked at the CIA.
For Creepy Dude: The answer is, "B": I really hope we have secret prisons. I want to win; I am uncertain what you want, other than to frustrate yourself in increasingly failed efforts to harm the current administration. Concerning the term "Gulag," most people associate it with the idea that the millions of inmates were manifestly innocent civilians. To use it in connection with the people the US has seized is quite a bit less than honest, and does not credit you at all.

Creepy Dude

Wow-you are one scary deluded dangerous asshole. Are you posting from Cheney's office? Let's take this quote: "most people associate it (the Gulag) with the idea that the millions of inmates were manifestly innocent civilians"?

And you can offer me what assurance that the people currently in our Gulag are not innocent? Have they ever had a trial? How about even a preliminary trial? How do you know the kid on the milk carton isn't in there?

Turns out you can't know any of that you dumbass-because, you see, they're secret prisons.

Secret prisons?! Jesus H. Christ-we make it through 200 plus years of history and you stupid scumbag cowards are ready to trash it all because of one terrorist attack?

God bless the people that died on 9/11 and may Satan repeatedly violate the cowards who murdered them and the incompetent cowards we have in office who have yet to properly avenge their death.

I'm so sick of this charge that I'm the terrorist lover who wants to offer them therapy and you prison-guard cock worshippers are the ones who know how to properly defend the country. Fuck that.

It's you who are the ones that are so scared shitless you have to trash everything this country stands for to ease your goddamn baby shivering. Fuck Cheney Fuck Addington and fuck you.


Cecil Turner

Greg Kelly's not exactly a foaming mouth liberal . . .

I expect I know him considerably better than you do. And I like him as well.

cathyf
For Trumanzex, re prosecutorial discretion: I recognize that prosecutors have enormous discretion about what to prosecute and what not to prosecute, but it is still the law that they have no discretion to prosecute anything that is not a crime.
Yeah, thanks, that was way more articulate than I was. Sheer surprise was making me babble.
The "all others" must be specifically enumerated by statute. I know of no statue that would make a crime out of the truthful statement by a government official that Plame worked at the CIA.
Lion, do you have an opinion about how likely it is whether or not there is such a statute?

cathy :-)

Truzenzuzex

Cathy:

I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding you here... What you seem to be saying is that prosecutors get to make up whatever laws they want, and unless they are reined in later by a court, the legislatures writing and voting upon laws which say specific things are de facto irrelevant to the process of making laws. Really?
You are misunderstaning me.

What I am saying is that if something is classified secret wrongly it is still classified. I can find no law or regulation that states a person is off the hook for disclosing information that is accidentally classified higher than perhaps it should be.

Assume, for example, that some information was scheduled to be declassified in 2000, but due to an oversight it was not. As far as I can tell, that could still be prosecuted if all the other elements of the offense are met.

On the other hand, a prosecutor would look at this situation and say "Gee, that should have been declassified". He investigates and finds that it was indeed an oversight. He reasonably declines to prosecute the technical offense.

clarice

JD, I empathize. How painful it must be to keep getting outfoxed and beaten by an alcoholic, coke sniffing,draft dodging idiot son.Especially when the Dem ranks are full of intelligent men and women of unimpeachable integrity and probity.

It's so un-fa-ir.

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Wilson/Plame