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January 23, 2006

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» The Moore/Washington Post/Bighead Bloggers Controversy from Decision '08
The Blogometer at National Journals Hotline says the partisanship regarding the Michael Moore / Washington Post kerfuffles is off the charts: Is it just us, or has the polarity of the blog poles reversed? Two years ago, liberal bloggers were he... [Read More]

Comments

Forbes

What is this, The Left-Wing Parody Tour?

Matthews compared OBL with Michael Moore--certainly an unoriginal thought--and Crooks and Liars calls it a smear. There's truth in advertising, and self-awareness, at that web site. (But hey, they're angry, damnit!)

And Gandelman says that Matthews is part of the GOP echo chamber--WOW, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at that one!

Karl Rove sure works in mysterious ways.

Gary Maxwell

They are hearing their own words back with an echo and they dont particularly like it and its hard to attack the messenger when he is carrying your own mail! Next best thing is to rant rave andf change the subject. This subject changing stuff is something liberals excel at.

Sue

I personally liked the comment in the diary section where 'echo chamber' was thrown out. Do not, under any circumstances, go to Kos and expect to disagree with them. ::grin::

Michael Moore was proud enough in 2004 for the comparison.

Sue

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-11-01face>Michael Moore

There he was, OBL, all tan and rested and on videotape (hey, did you get the feeling that he had a bootleg of my movie? Are there DVD players in those caves in Afghanistan?)

So what's the beef? Michael Moore saw the connection.

maryrose

I read some of the comments referenced above and I have to say they sound madder than hornets. Matthews was simply expressing an honest opinion and all of a sudden he is persona non grata. In the old days Matthews was pretty tough on Clinton and spoke his mind quite freely. Because he's been so against the Iraq war I think the left thought he was in their pocket. The next couple of days will be interesting to see if he is his own man .

Extraneus

I know I'm not the only one looking forward to Saddam's defense for even more entertainment value.

Sue

Actually, it was kind of fun going back to Moore's site and reading his "sorry you got canned" letter to Bush the day before the election. ::grin:: I doubt I would have done that had I not been reminded of Moore by Chris Matthews.

Davebo

Indeed, practically indistinguishable from Michael Moore!

You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator.”
We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling’s, and trading with interest.
You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton’s immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he ‘made a mistake’, after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

Paul Zrimsek
The DarkSyde theme was to recycle some Kos talking points from last year...

Even that's pretty charitable; the first time I heard this particular wheeze I believe the wording was "Shi'ite Republicans", which should tell you a thing or two about its vintage. DarkSyde's conviction that this rusty putty knife is really a Sword of Damocles hanging over conservative heads is as comical, in its way, as his self-satisfaction at being the first to spot it.

Gary Maxwell

They must truly have lost it. Essence of memo, ergo "if it walks like a duck and its quacks like a duck its probably a duck." Losers.

cathyf

Well, as I said before on the other thread, the characterization of "Osama" is obvious, and the conclusion even more so -- it's not Osama on the tape, and it wasn't Osama back in Nov, 2004. Where do the lefties get the idea that this is about them?!?

The whole point is that the real Osama never sounded much like anybody on either the left or the right. His issues were about Islam, and he never really gave a s*** about issues that either the right or left think are important, and we (both left and right) never really gave a s*** about arcane Islamic theology.

cathy :-)

Rick Ballard

Cathy,

I agree with you but that still leaves the question as to why al Queada has chosen to take their lead from the DNC wrt talking points. Did Soros have input into their selection of a PR firm?

Jim E.

Chris Matthrew is "a reliable Bush-basher"?? Your partisanship never fails to impress. How do you define "reliable"?

Matthews, remember, recently said "Everybody sort of likes the president, except for the real whack-jobs," even as polls showed more than half of Americans don't personally like Bush. Matthews said he really likes Bush and that he "glimmers with a sunny nobility." Harsh stuff! Bashing, in fact. (Not.) He's also been defensive of Bush regarding the NSA taps, saying it's probably part of Bush's job to break the law. And he's said that if Iraq succeeds as a Democracy, that Bush belongs on Mt. Rushmore. He also said that regarding some Iraq speech two months ago: "This is Clint Eastwood stuff. I think the president today is brilliant."

Sue

Jim E.,

There are polls that say Amercians don't personally like the President? I didn't know that. I couldn't participate in that poll, in any event, since I don't personally know him well enough to give an honest answer. Scratch that. I don't know him personally...period.

You are actually going to say Matthews is in Bush's camp? Or, if not exactly in his camp, certainly impartial?

Hit The Bid!

As a Liberal, I don;t really see anything wrong with Matthews with doing the oh so crazy thing of making an oh so obvious connection...that OBL's rhetoric (very anti-current US policy--especially towards him) is not too dissimilar to the anti-Iraq war rhetoric of the Left.

I mean Duh...not exactly rocket science to see that OBL has smartly coopted some opposition language there--and no that doesn't make Democrats terrorists. Being a terrorist makes you a terrorist.

Next topic please!

Cecil Turner

Matthews, remember, recently said . . .

Are we talking Chris Matthews, former speechwriter for Jimmy Carter, long-time top aide for Tip O'Neill? Seriously, how far to the left does one have to be to claim he's a conservative shill?

topsecretk9

Gary --

"if it walks like a duck and its quacks like a duck its probably a duck."

Hey, watch it. You're mucking up Sue's analogy now.

Sue

Cecil,

I just re-read Michael Moore's letter on the eve of the '04 election bemoaining the fact that Kerry was right of them but the center democrats had to move much farther left to support him than they did. I took it from that it depends on where you stand on the color wheel whether you are green, yellow green or green yellow.

chuck

Of course this is an attempt to feign (or embody?!) naivety... the valence of the metaphor is not the point. The point is that the to are being associated directly, which creates a foul impression that pisses a lot of people off.

It ignores the fact that this is a talking point for one side... presumably NOT because it is a neutral reference to a discursive coincidence.

Happily, I am not yet convinced that ya'll are this slow witted... I think it's a failed air-head impersonation.

Sue

TSK9,

::grin:: Madcows and ducks, oh my...

TM

Chris Matthrew is "a reliable Bush-basher"?? Your partisanship never fails to impress. How do you define "reliable"?

By reliance on my psychic powers, since I rarely watch his show. However, he was practically frothing (with glee) at the prospect of Cheney being indicted during the Plame investigation.

However, if he was comparing Bush to my man Clint, I may need to re-think his reliability.

It ignores the fact that this is a talking point for one side... presumably NOT because it is a neutral reference to a discursive coincidence.

Well, there are something like an objective facts (Osama ridiclued the aircraft carrier speech, thinks Bush is in the pocket of war profiteers, and praised "The Rogue State", a history book by Blum.

To say that Matthews cannot state the obvious - Osama is appropriating lefty talking points - because someone else might then argue that this proves all lefties have replaced their Che posters with Osama posters - strike sme as absurd.

Rather than attempting to silence Matthews (an otherwise laudable goal) I would either (a) wait until someone makes that comparison, and then rebut them;, or (b) rebut the connection preemptively.

Just for example, Osama is calling for the SU to withdraw from both Iraq and Afghanistan. My impression of mainstream anti-war Dems is thta they want us to withdraw from Iraq to better focus on Afgfhanistan. So the comparison is foolish, yes?

Or, let the folks making that comparison shoot themselves in the foot. Dems did not (IMHO) stop insisting that all opponents of affirmative action were racist just because David Duke was a racist who opposed affirmative action - I don't think Dems were afflicted with a suddene distatse for non sequiteurs.

Rather, the political cost of telling roughly half the US public they were racist became too high.

I assume the same thing would happen here - plenty of folks who are quite secure in their Osmaa loathing also dislike Bush and his policies.

chuck

TM's comments are astoundingly reasonable... of course, preemtion is the only option... as this type of stuff tends to stick very quickly.

I think where the anger comes is that all of a sudden, in 2 days- 3 major tv personalities, and all of Fox News starts saying more or less the same thing.

The silly meme had caught on over the weekend... despite it's straight forward idiocy.

Very dissapointing.

Ted Barlow

Tom,

Tell me if I'm misrepresenting you, but it seems like you're operating on a double standard here. When a lefty compares Osama's cultural and religious critiques to the similar critiques coming from American cultural conservatives, you dismiss this as dumb-ass recycled talking points. Fair enough; I don't like those kinds of comparisons, either.

But under what principle does Chris Matthews, Tucker Carlson, et al. deserve your support, and the people attacking them deserve your dismissal? It seems like Tucker Carlson and Chris Matthews are doing substantially the same thing.

Lew Clark

I'm still not sure of the direction of the outrage on the left. Are they mad because Matthews compared their boy Osama to that creep Moore, or, are they mad because Matthews compared their boy Michael to that creep Osama?

Sue

I don't understand the outrage from any direction. Moore himself noticed the tendency of Osama to use his talking points as I linked to above. Is this a "I'll talk about my mama but you sure better not" type of argument? Because the outrage seems to be that Moore didn't get to say it first.

Gary Maxwell

Chuck

Glad to hear that you are aginst straight forward idiocy being repeated ad naseum. Did I miss it or were you howling loudly about a similar statement of straight forward idiocy ergo "Bush lied"

chuck

The childish outpourings from Lew prove a point. A surprisingly large # of Americans really can't do the hard work of understanding simple analogies (as explained in the orginal post)... and instead just roll the association around in their "minds" with the beer and the gay jokes, and then stumble into a voting booth.
This is what makes us nervous.

maryrose

Moore, Sheehan, Osama all hate America that's why what they say sounds alike and they then have the identical musings.

maryrose

Chuck:
Lew is not childish. He is expressing an opinion and asking a question. That's what we do here. Get with the program.

Ted Barlow

"Moore, Sheehan, Osama all hate America that's why what they say sounds alike and they then have the identical musings."

You see what I'm talking about, I hope. There are clever ways to excuse cutie-pies peddling this garbage, but this is the effect. Maryrose believes this. I'm a very proud American with a brother on active duty in Afghanistan, but in her mind, people with my political leanings hate America and sound like Osama.

Can you see why we get angry about messages in the mainstream media that encourage this sort of thing?

boris

and sound like Osama.

If OBL and the moonbats were parroting parallel reasonable arguments, that would be unremarkable. Spouting virtually identical BDS fabrications shows comparable psychosis.

Can you see why we get angry about messages in the mainstream media that encourage this sort of thing?

No not at all. Probably because nobody ever says bad things about us so we lack empathy.

Appalled Moderate

These sort of blog pandemics confuse me, whether they erupt on the right or the left.

First, Chris Matthews speaks and spits before he thinks. That's his point in talk show life. To be a stream of consciousness/spittle motormouth. This latest just sounds like an off the cuff statement that's no more offensive than the usual stuff.

Second, this isn't an invalid observation. It looks like Osama is listening to the western critics of the Iraq war and appropriating their critiques for his purposes. Asking someone whether that's "going to sell" is a reasonable way to fill otherwise empty air space. (I won't say it's a good question: I doubt anyone answered him by saying "Osama's showing himself to be a real maestro of spin, here.")

The blog world and talk-show world, to use Mickey Kaus' word, is just more "excitable" than it should be, I guess. Everyone gets worked up about something, than forgets about, lickety split, to get all outraged by something else in the morning. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Getting mad, getting irritable? Save it for the elections or the substantive comments in your blogs and comments, when the anger and irritability can be used for a purpose.

Sue

AM,

In other words, the left is better at spinning something out of nothing than the right is so the right should just move on...nothing here to see?

Appalled Moderate

On this one, it's the left that needs to get past it. Spinning something out of nothing usually leaves one with nothing but spin.

Sue

AM,

Ahh...okay...

chuck

It's not nothing..."fillng up airtime." It's a meme, and they operate along evolutionary lines... if they find a niche, they propagate. Look at the 4-5 dull folks on this one comment section that have repeated it in different words to solidify their irrational hatred of their fellwo Americans. At both extremes, there are discursive communities trying to convince us to hate each other. When they do this, they need to get slapped, and they need to stop it. We have to keep the niche for this proto-hate speech as small as possible.

Which is why, Maryrose, these "opinions" have to be criticized for what they are... especially when they lack any reflexivity or reasoning.

Forbes

Ted Barlow apparently missed the "quacks like a duck" analogy. Does anyone care to explain it to him?

Earth to Ted! Earth to Ted!

Standard operating proceedure by lefties, is to refer to anyone on the right as Christ-crazed, homophobic, bigots. And that's just for starters. Visit Kos, DU, read the lefty trolls, and listen to racial epithets used against Condi Rice or Michael Steele by "mainstream" leftists for additional examples.

Someone points out that OBL parrots Michael Moore, and Ted Barlow gets angry?

Yeah, the truth can be uncomfortable.

But consider me unsympathetic. Such sentiments fit right in with the heartless, warmongering, neo-con stereotype that the left never fails to spout about.

Just like on the plantation. Know what I mean?

Lew Clark

Gee Chuck, you looked up that big word "analogy". Next week you may be ready for "satire".

chuck

Incisive comment, buddy. I know lots of words... and can string them together into big groupings. Would youl like to play? Simply come up with a point, put it into words, and we can argue about something... though my vocabulary isn't:
a. strong ground for you (analogy not being much of a word, really)
b. much fun to debate... especially with someone impressed by the word analogy.

chuck

And, no, "did liberals stop supporting OBL?" is not satire.

Rick Ballard

Forbes,

I think the exact language used by the Village Commissar was "and I think you know what I mean". From the looks on the faces of the people in the audience it appeared that the question was not being accepted as a rhetorical device. Of course, the VC has always had a tin ear wrt rhetorical flourishes so there was nothing shocking in her performance.

She should ask Bill for pandering lessons.

chuck

Unless it's a parody of satire... in which case it's pretty funny, but well out of your grasp.

maryrose

Ted Barlow; Thank your brother for his service . My brother served in Vietnam. I did not say americans who think like you do. I mentioned three people all who have made amti-american statements. I understand why Cindy Sheehan says this because of her grief. What is Moore's excuse. If you want to know how red state America sees Moore, review footage of the Republican convention where he was booed out of his seat.

Geek, Esq.

This post by Atrios shows that us lefties have something of a case in calling Tweety a fluffer for the Bush administration.

More accurately, though, one should simply refer to Tweety as an unprincipled hack who is more weathervane than journalist.

Cecil Turner

If the Dems are abandoning everyone to the right of Chris Matthews, I'd suggest it's a pretty good way to achieve permanent minority party status.

Geek, Esq.

Matthews isn't a rightwinger.

Think about it this way: If the powerful elite in D.C. are rock stars, Matthews is the drunk bimbo throwing her bra on stage.

topsecretk9

I actually agree with Geek here. I don't think it matters which side he sympathizes with ( the left of course) he have politician groupie tendencies.

BTW - it's (wink, nod) just (nod, wink, nod) wicked (nod, wink) on in some quarters (wink) of the netter's today

topsecretk9

he have

put "does" in between here

Extraneus

It's pretty clear that this has struck a nerve on the left. I'm kind of dubious that they could be blind-sided by something so obvious, so it seems like this must have been a concern all along. The curious thing is why their reaction isn't to loudly reject his attempt at manipulation, guarantee him and everyone else that he doesn't have their support, and explain that we're united regarding what should happen to him and his own. We are, aren't we?

Extraneus

"He" being OBL, not Matthews. :-)

AlanDownunder

Is that clear? Matthews point is that Osama is adopting the rhetoric of Michael Moore, NOT that Michael Moore is adopting the rhetoric of Osama Bin Laden. This is an important distinction that the critics on the left seem to be determined to blur (as evidenced by the observation that, as yet, I have not seen a prominent critic actually post Matthews remarks in context, although that may changed).

The blur is what critics from the left bemoan. Instead of Bin Laden being redeemed by comparison with Moore, Moore (and all liberals) are being tarred by comparison with Bin Laden. How thick (or blindly partisan) do you have to be not to see that?

Tom Ritchford

The "right" put Bin Laden into power. The "right-wing" Administration stood by idly while he killed thousands of Americans. After a few weeks of pretending to search for him, your Bush government lost interest (remember, "I don't know where Bin Laden is, and I don't care"?) and went on to wage a pointless, never-ending war that has killed thousands of Americans, crippled tens of thousands of them -- while Bin Laden continues to go free to mock America and the Free World, kill hundreds of others in successive attacks in London, Madrid, Bali and other places. Your Bush administration isn't even pretending to search for Bin Laden any more -- now they say they know where he is but don't want to disturb other countries.

Now Bin Laden, the mass murderer who your President Bush has allowed to walk scot-free, has said what everyone else in the world knows, that the Iraq war is a pointless waste of time that's pissing away trillions of dollars and killing Americans every day.

And "the right's" response? Comparing Bin Laden (a mass-murderer who's killed thousands of Americans) to Michael Moore (a filmmaker who's killed zero Americans)!

You think it's funny to use childish words like "Tweety" and "moonbat" instead of using logic, reasoning and facts, but when it comes down to it you're just covering up for the fact that your President Bush has lost the World Trade Center, lost Bin Laden, lost the war in Iraq, lost New Orleans and flushed trillions of dollars down the toilet.

Your grandchildren will still be paying the debt that you've incurred, incurred for *nothing*, for no gain whatsoever. You'll be seeing the consequences yourself soon enough when oil breaks the $100 a barrel mark, but more important, when the thousands upon thousands of crippled young people come home with their crutches, canes, wheelchairs and dogs.

Sue

I'm still placing my money on the pre-emption aspect of Matthews stating what Moore hadn't articulated on his website yet. Stole his thunder...so to speak.

Sue

Now Bin Laden, the mass murderer who your President Bush has allowed to walk scot-free, has said what everyone else in the world knows, that the Iraq war is a pointless waste of time that's pissing away trillions of dollars and killing Americans every day.

You are blowing it Tom. They are arguing their little hearts out in here there is not comparison between what the left is saying and what bin Laden said.

AlanDownunder

afterthought:

Nothing redeems Bin Laden - the maniac is irredeemable. Let's just say Moore or any other war opponent (as opposed to participant) is not in the same league and merits no comparison that would have the EFFECT of tarring them with the Bin Laden brush.

maryrose

Stole his thunder...so to speak.
Interesting Moore has not said anything about the comparison. Typical, on the Situation Room we have Harry Belafonte spewing hate speech to Wolf Blitzer and Parick Leahy on the Lehrer Report saying he introduced a bill in the Senate to curb the Terrorism Surveillance activities, This issue is a loser for dems; guess they haven't figured that out yet.

chuck

Maryrose doesn't know what (s)he's talking about, again. Moore responded, I think hillariously. And THIS IS satire.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=5598

Gary Maxwell

If the outrage on the left is that some are saying: "The left sounds like OBL." I will admit that their argument has a point. TM has as much as conceded, and more elequantly than I, so I will leave that lie there.

The fact is the OBL is echoing the Left. That is very different and I do not argue that the statement is communative, but to me I would still be troubled. My words are being used by my country's enemy against my country. My country's enemy thinks he can use my own words to win a victory that will otherwise allude him on the battlefield. I would not like that one bit. Perhaps that is whence some of the rage emanates.

Rick Ballard

Extraneus,

They hung a red lantern in the window but forgot to hire a pimp. Rough trade showed up and they don't know how how to deal with him.

You would think that with over a century in the business they would know better - especially after the outcome of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. They can take the red lantern out of the window or learn to live with the consequences.

chuck

Sue is wrong... nobody's saying there's no relationship between certain topoi used by UBL and criticism offered here in the US.
The argument is that that this confluence is meaningless. If you don't like the Iraq war- there are honorable reasons to do it.
And it hurts our common cause to push this analogy. It may well be what the Evil One intended by tracking his discourse so closely.
There are also similar lines of argument used by UBL and the Right... but pointing them out does no good... it does harm... and it's intellectually dishinest to begin with.

AlanDownunder

Mr Maguire. Leave off the dingbat press commentary and do what you do best. What do you make of Jason Leopold at Truthout on Fitz?

Sue

Chuck,

Nice to know I'm just wrong and not of a different opinion than you. I said it the first time I posted about it, I would be embarrassed if the Saudi dissident was repeating my words. It would seem those on the left are also embarrassed by them. And that's a good thing.

Rick Ballard

Gary,

Now we're even for the day.

The fauxnies are sure out in phorce today. Poor little lambs.

BurkettHead

If the lefties really believed what they were saying, the response I'd expect is "Of course Osama sounds like Moore - even Osama can see the truth. Why can't you?"

kim

I thought Rider triangulated quite nicely yesterday why there isn't a unity of the left and al Qaeda. But, boy oh boy, this has struck a nerve that hurts. When are they going to absorb a little punishment for wanting to keep the Iraqis disenfranchised.
=============================================

chuck

Folks on the right should be careful with the argument that if A uses arguments that B uses, A is responsible for B.
A few examples:
"States Rights"
"Preemptive War"
"Racial Profiling"
"Homosexuality is immoral"
etc.

These arguments of confluence are ridiculous on both sides.

chuck

The right wants to keep:
china
Iran
Syria
Saudi Arabia
etc.

All disenfranchised... Right Kimmie?!

chuck

Or maybe you just absorbed a talking point you hadn't thought through.

maryrose

Chuck: Can't stand the heat? Get out of the kitchen. I didn't hear any of Moore"s rant because I purposely don't go on those hate sites. In everyday news I haven't heard his response and when Moore wants to be heard he usually finds a way. Dems have probably but a silencer muzzle on him before he messes up their chances in 06. He cost them the 04 election by sitting next to Carter at the dem convention. You sound typical let's pretend OBL never used our own words against us. Let's ignore it and let people forget about it because it is a POLITICAL LoSER for dems.

chuck

Trust me... I can stand lots of heat... and many in this crowd are fairly low wattage.
1. Don't say "X didn't say anything" if YOU DIDN"T CHECK... Say, I don't know... don't make stuff up.
2. If you get busted, don't get indignant... It makes you look desperate AND lazy.

You don't like Moore... Fine.
But we'll take political advice from people who don't make up stuf they don't know anything about.
M'Kay?

Sue

Chuck,

You are wrong, as opposed to just having a different opinion. OBL recited the DNC talking points. Those talking points are mirrored by (or possibly copied from) Moore. They don't sound as good coming from OBL, do they?

Kate

I read Jason Leopold and it sounds like recycled stuff from the high water mark of Fitzmas. Actually, I don't think Rove saying they want to turn the tables on Wilson is particularly criminal but perhaps I'm missing something.

Personally, I don't expect any movement on Rove until after the hearing on Libby's case. Fitz has his work cut out for him on the Libby case.

I notice that, according to Jason, Fitz is now looking at the forgeries (from October) and the White House Iraq Group (which Jason hysterically refers to as previously unknown-no, this was from October too) and looking at conspiracy chargess (real old news).

I expect we'll be hearing about 22 indictments soon and the nutty Shuster will be reporting on the unraveling of the entire US government while Matthews smirks. Oh, yes and Karen Hughes, John Bolton, and that evil Mary Matalin.

chuck

Sue:

Take your meds, and re-read my post... Those comments are modeeled from domestic criticisms of Bush... and are mirrored by UBL to enflame a divide in America... then Sean Hannity, and his semi-literate followers play right into his hands. You can read, right... read my last post... and explain to me what you're thinking. If you need me to define worlds, just say so.

I'm very helpful.

Gary Maxwell

Matthews isn't a rightwinger. Geekster


Look outside probable blue moon alert. Geek and I agree which is about as often as well you know.

Now let me know when Jupiter aligns with Mars so that peace will guide the planet ( trite metaphor alert).

Rick Ballard

Alan,

I'm not sure what Tom will say but I say that I wouldn't allow Leopold to shine my shoes for fear that I would have to leave them outside for a month.

"This was in stark contrast to what the administration had been saying publicly up until this point: that they only cited the Niger documents because they had been confirmed by British intelligence."

Leopold might try reading the Butler Report which deals with this canard rather effectively. He might also reconsider using ElBaradei as a source:

ElBaradei 1 - International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Director General Mohamed ElBaradei revealed that Iran is not developing any nuclear weapons program.

ElBaradei 2 - IAEA director Mohamed ElBaradei told Newsweek magazine that it was not impossible Iran had a secret nuclear arms programme.

“If they have the nuclear material and they have a parallel weaponisation program along the way, they are really not very far -- a few months -- from a weapon,” he said.

ElBaradei 1

ElBaradei 2

Recycled hash.

maryrose

Chuck; Have you noticed how you fling insults and call names when you have a retrograde weak argument? Re-read your last couple of posts and see how your condescending attitude gets in the way of the discussion. Let's try to elevate the comments and submit them respectfully.

Gary Maxwell

Check could you be any more condenscending? Its really unlikely to help your arguement. Lord knows it could use so help though.

topsecretk9

EX
so it seems like this must have been a concern all along.

hoping that "volcano" in the living room wouldn't blow?

chuck

When people argue with me but don't read my posts... it makes me feel superior.
Sorry.

Kate

Leopold is trying to compete with Rawstory as the worst souce on the Rove story. Even Rawstory doesn't use Leopold as a source anymore. Burnt too ofter.

I think Leopold is fed misinformation from the, er, colorful Larry Johnson.

chuck

Especially when they're trying to say I'm aligned with Bin Laden.

That makes me mad... and not because it's true... because it's stupid, obnoxious, and bad for my country.

Get better interlocutors, and I won't rip them to shreds.

topsecretk9

Talk about forgetting to take your meds, but that George Galloway picture (the red spandex unitard????) Drudge is running is beyond hilarious.

chuck

And I use insult in addition to arguments...
Choose a stasis point and throw down, if you'd like...

Sue

Chuck,

I've already had the ad hom debate with a couple of your mirror images. If that is what it takes for you to feel superior, then far be it from me to halt your ego trip.

Gary Maxwell

You know Chuck if you were saying something stupid and I got mad you would be telling me about your First amendment rights. Practice some civility and see if it is not returned. We dont have to agree and likely based on what I have read so far, we wont. But diagree without being disagreeable.

chuck

topsecret is right by the way...

topsecretk9

Chuck

it isn't your country, it's our country.

Sue

TSK9,

The best part is his partner who claims he wouldn't be caught dead in the blue outfit. Of course, he didn't mind being caught alive. ::grin::

Gary Maxwell

Chuck your not aligned with Bin Laden. But he sure likes what your are saying. He wants you to help him win. Get it? Sheesh

maryrose

Chuck;
You haven't ripped us to shreds. We're made of stronger stuff than that. I only read posts that will enlighten me or where I can actually discover or learn something new. Moore rants are so yesterday. His 15 minutes are up but unfortunately none of his friends have informed him of this fact.

chuck

It is our country... fair point.
Gary... you're obvious not paying attention to arguments... My point is that dividing our country like you are helps UBL... when you figure out what we're talkina bout check back in.
Sure. It's not an ad hom... you didn't read my post... then you posted what I and jsut ommitted the point. You're either not paying attention, or are mentally deficient... neither of which is my a. fault b. problem.
I'll say it slow, small words.
UBL is using you... he mimics domestic criticism of US policy to drie a wedge through the country... Fox News conservatives play along because Sean Hannity and Rush tell them to.
Get it... or No?

chuck

"Sure" should be "Sue". My bad.

Sue

Chuck,

You're coming around. You at least know he was mimicking your talking points.

Libby on the Label

He offered a truce because the US is gong to attack North Korea, Iran, and Syria.

Notice the attack on our ally Pakistan. The truce was offered so that the attacks are justfied if the US expands its liberation of Moslems, Dem style,

Kate

Chuck, the weekend before the US election UBL released a tape where he criticized Bush for reading from "My Pet Goat" on 9/11.

Actually, UBL's tapes used to consist of Islamic ramblings, now he sounds like just another lefist, and he's just as ineffective. That UBL tape really got Ohio for Kerry didn't it?

Rick Ballard

Friendship based upon "the enemy of my enemy"... 'Howie, Michael and Osama.'

Doesn't quite have the ring of 'Abraham, Martin and John' but ya gotta work with the material provided.

Had the Dems not taken the path of divisive marginalization the conversation would not be occuring. Sedition has its rewards.

chuck

Ya'll are about as stupid of commenters as I've ever seen you can't even understand what the current point of contention is...
Very disappointing. This is why I usually argue with Lowry or Goldberg... THey are smart AND conservative.
I'll leave you with this...
Making the analogy between domestic dissent and our enemy divides america and helps the enemy.
UBL planned it that way...
It's not az strong thesis... I was just seeing what ya'll had to say about it... and the answer was to repeat what you already said... and try weakly to insult me.
So sad... I've taught highschool debaters with infinitely more finesse.
Sigh... at least Sue learned how to read her opponents' posts. I guess I'll call that a win.

Gary Maxwell

I am dividing our country!!!! that is chutzpah to end all chutzpah. Shove it Chuck. Go march with your Code Pink folks or in a march with Cindy Sheehan or another march organized by International ANSWER. Fail your country. I will conitnue to point out how wrong you are as is my constitutional given right. OBL thinks you may be his only chance you nincompoop. Dont like it, tough. Win an elction once in awhile and then you can make the rules.

Gary Maxwell

Those that can do, do. Those that cant, teach high school debaters, Chuck.

Tom Ritchford

Let's take a look at the score, shall we?

George W. Bush | Osama Bin Laden | Michael Moore

Religious government: Y/Y/N
Freedom of speech: N/N/Y
Abortion: N/N/Y
Family planning: N/N/Y
Bombings: Y/Y/N
Women's Rights: N/N/Y
Torture: Y/Y/N
Homosexuality: N/N/Y
Sex before marriage: N/N/Y
Iraq War: Y/N/N

So Bin Laden and Bush agree on 9 out of 10 of their fundamental platforms -- and Moore agrees with Bin Laden on one out of 10.

*** If you guys don't like Bin Laden, then why does your President refuse to act to track him down and bring him to justice?

*** If you guys are so against Islam and Islamic terrorist, why does your President continue to suck up to the Saudis, who did in fact first bomb and later destroy the World Trade Center? Why take out the one secular government in the whole region?

The answer is clear: Bin Laden and Bush have the same belief systems -- they are brothers under the skin. Saudi Arabia (with Islam replaced by Christianity) is the model for Bush's America.

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