God Lied, People Died?

Alan Cowell of the NY Times takes his criticism of British PM Tony Blair to a higher level:

Blair Invokes God in Decision to Send British Troops to Iraq

By ALAN COWELL

LONDON, March 3 — Prime Minister Tony Blair has indicated that God influenced his deliberations when he committed British troops to fight alongside American forces in Iraq.

The remarks, which surprised some antiwar campaigners, were made in an Independent Television talk show to be broadcast Saturday night. A transcript was released by the ITV station on Friday.

"God influenced his deliberations"?  That is not even supported by the interview excerpts presented by Mr. Cowell.  Mr. Blair makes two points - history, other people, and, if you believe in the concept, God will judge Blair's decision to go to war with Iraq; and yes, Tony Blair prays.

Mr. Blair drew plenty of criticism in Britain, but the thrust was different:

The BBC:

PM attacked on Iraq 'God' remarks
Anti-war campaigners have criticised Tony Blair after he suggested his decision to go to war in Iraq would ultimately be judged by God.

The prime minister told ITV1's Parkinson chat show: "If you believe in God (the judgement) is made by God."

The Independent:

Blair: 'God will be my judge on Iraq'
Tony Blair has proclaimed that God will judge whether he was right to send British troops to Iraq, echoing statements from his ally George Bush.

An Independent editorial:

For Mr Blair to invoke God as the ultimate arbiter of his decision to go to war in Iraq suggests marks a change. In the past, the Prime Minister took the secular view that history would be his judge. With history turning against him in Iraq, perhaps God offers the prospect of greater mercy.

CNN International:

LONDON, England -- British Prime Minister Tony Blair says God and history will judge whether he was right to go to war in Iraq, according to the transcript of a television interview to be broadcast Saturday.

The Times is in their own choir on this one.

The BBC offers a more complete excerpt.

UPDATE:  Via Matt Drudge, we see that the NY Times has the AFP, if not God, on their side:

Blair under fire for evoking God in Iraq war decision

LONDON (AFP) - Tony Blair triggered strong reactions from parents of soldiers killed in Iraq and the political opposition, after the British prime minister evoked God in his decision to go to war.

  Details emerged Friday of Blair's interview on an ITV1 television talk show where he said God and history would judge his action in joining the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

"That decision has to be taken and has to be lived with, and in the end there is a judgment that -- well, I think if you have faith about these things then you realise that judgment is made by other people," Blair said in the interview with host Michael Parkinson which will air Saturday night.

Pressed to clarify what he meant, Blair, a devout Christian, replied: "If you believe in God, it's made by God as well."

Comments

[Dave in W-S]

That's why the NYT is the preeminent American newspaper - because they are able to interpret what was actually said to gain the deeper truth of what was really meant.

It's a God given talent.

[Other Tom]

These people would flip their lids over some of the utterances of, say, Washington, Lincoln and FDR.

[kim]

Or Bill Clinton.
=================

[Dwilkers]

There are a lot of people that are very ignorant of religion in this country, especially on the left.

I was struck by this a few years ago when Bush was asked about gays (I think it was about gays on his staff) and said said something close to 'we are all sinners, and it isn't for me to judge someone else'. This was spun out in all sorts of fairly amusing ways, including MoDo writing a column saying Bush had called everyone in America a sinner.

Of course, that isn't the way that dogma is applied or used - Bush was talking about himself, not anyone else. That was his entire point, it is the point of the religious tenet to which he was referring.

Similar with Blair in this case. Blair's point is "God will be my judge", not "God told me to invade", but people that don't understand Christianity or religion in general will not get it, and don't want to.

[maryrose]

Dwilkers:
Excellent post, it expresses my sentiments exactly.

[kim]

It is a sad and bitter commentary on secularity that the existence within a political leader of spirituality is considered an appropriate and pejorative criticism of him.
=========================================

[kim]

Ah yes, Slick Willie; it is people like he who have created the need to invent a concept of judgement beyond the pale. I've compared him above, favorably really, with some honored forebears, honored at least partly because of their spirituality. It is so that Clinton invoked God in his speeches approximately twice as often as does Bush. Generally to black Christian audiences, true, but we know he's a chameleon. He certainly speaks the language, too, having learnt it from the cradle. Is his spirituality honest? Is it as he portrays it? And how about Hill?

Like I say, judgement beyond the pale.
==========================================

[Rick Ballard]

Well, there is a little bit of evidence that the words of his mouth were somwhat inconsonant with the meditations of his heart. I'm thinking in particular of his remarks upon exiting an Easter service (bearing his 40# King James) as he returned to the WH to bare witness to a young intern.

Judge not doesn't mean don't use judgement, as I am quite positive that you know.

[Bill]

With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

John Kennedy - January 20, 1961

[Soylent Red]

The first thing that leapt out at me was that you don't "evoke" God, you "invoke" God. To "evoke" God would mean that you cause God. Leftist Freudian slip? I don't know. Hack journalists once again butchering the Queen's English. Yup.

Second, and more to the point, Christians believe in the notion of "just war". Just war is defined as defending innocents who cannot defend themselves, often at your own peril, and we are commanded to do it in various places. It mirrors and is founded in Christ's own sacrifice. Perhaps the NYT or AFP will explain how Iraq doesn't fit the definition of just war.

Or maybe they could simply explain, in their deep theological understanding, where Christ told Christians to turn the other cheek to genocide.

[Lew Clark]

This does continue to show the "echo" chamber" the far left leaning media live in. They really believe they live in the "People's Republic" where God is illegal. Granted, a majority of Brits are not actively religious, but they still like to have God handy, just in case they need Him. In the U.S., a majority still believe in God. So the media elite being incensed at Blair's reference to that entity that they hate, does not ring true with the populace. I may be naive, but I still believe more people in the U.S. and Britain have more faith in God, than left-wing politicians and their mouthpieces in the media.

[kim]

Simple faith and the guinea stamp.
=================================

[Cecil Turner]

Just plain weird. I can see how this media tendency to twist statements to fit the desired meme would make public figures reluctant to hold forth. If so, it's certainly unhelpful.

[Rick Ballard]

SR,

As soon as you head down the just war doctrine trail you have the dim bulb leaders of the dying mainline denominations telling you it doesn't apply. Not to mention a very nice fight among Catholic bishops on the same points.

I agree with you but I can't imagine what hash the idiots who write for the MSM would make of it. You're talking about people who undoubtedly think that Augustine and Aquinas were contemporaries.

[TexasToast]

It appears that Mr. Cowell confused Mr. Blair's faith in God's ultimate judgment of his actions with a belief that God assists us in our decisions, up to and including a decision to go to war. God's help in making the his decision to go to war in Iraq was expressly advanced by the President IIRC. This might be the cause of Mr. Cowell's confusion.

It is interesting that its not a "lie" to confuse "breach" vs. "overtop" but it is a "lie" to confuse just which part of Tony Blair's relationship to God was invoked in support of his decision to go to war in Iraq.

[TM]

Tex, you got me - who said whom was lying, and about what?

And are we or are we not in agreement that "overtop" and "breach" have quite different meanings, as the President himself may well have known?

[clarice]

Ah, right you are Rick. I recall having a two day long debate elsewhere with a Catholic over just war and whether or not the Church has always left the final decision to the political leaders on the ground that they have responsibilities and information not available to it. Of course, as I read it that is precisely what the Catechism says.(And if it didn't, rulers everywhere would have a different view of the Church and its followers, a rather unpleasant view, I'd say.)

[hoot]

Who said who?

[kim]

Separation of Church and State does precede the anabaptists.
===========================

[Cecil Turner]

Tex, you got me - who said whom was lying, and about what?

Well, I'll go there. "Tony Blair has indicated that God influenced his deliberations . . ." is not supported by the excerpted text (and is a lie if that's what it's based on). The BBC's "he suggested his decision to go to war in Iraq would ultimately be judged by God" looks to be spot-on, though the ancillary remarks are a bit overwrought.

[TexasToast]

Well Tom, I don't think either are "lies" - just misinterpretations/misrepresentations. As you know, I'm not a big fan of the "Bush lied" meme. "Lie" implies an intent, and I'll admit that I see more motive to misrepresent in the levee case than in the Blair case. Who really cares whether divine judgement or divine assistance was invoked by Mr Blair? The main point was that he invoked the deity - not how he did it.

Still, both of us are entitled to our prejudices.

In the levee case, I think it is more of a word parse (one of your favorite hobbies, I know ;). Substitute the word failure for breach and the criticism becomes clear. What the video shows is that Mr Bush was informed of the potential for the failure of the levee system (whether by "breach" or "overtop" leading to subsequent failure), and this video, combined with the other warnings give to the President, make his statement that "no one anticipated the [failure] of the levees" something less than the truth. Failure of the system was anticipated and the president was informed.

That the President was "read in" to the extent he was was not revealed until that became politically advantageous. Then, voila, the new information suddenly appears. Its kinna like declassifying for political advantage.

[Gary Maxwell]

You as a child growing up in the sixties I heard a lot about how Christianity requires a christian to turn the other cheek. I guess I did believe a lot of stuff as a young adult. But then one day I realized that the story of Jesus using a whip to drive the moneychangers out of th temple was probably a better description for me of what God was trying to teach us. If its clearly immoral and wrong then its clearly immoral and worng and take whatever action is necessary to correct it.

It was only later that I discovered Thomas Aquinas.

[Gary Maxwell]

you = yes

sheesh

[Gary Maxwell]

you = yes

sheesh

[clarice]

Kindness to the wolf is suffering to the lamb. Someone should tattoo that message on the foreheads of mental weaklings like Carter.

[Harry Arthur]

Dw, possibly a minor nit to pick: This was spun out in all sorts of fairly amusing ways, including MoDo writing a column saying Bush had called everyone in America a sinner.

If Bush believes what I understand him to believe then MoDo was correct in asserting that Bush believes all of us in America to be sinners. But so what? The historic Christian faith asserts precisely that. All of which leads to Bush's actual point that she clearly missed, namely that he would not choose to suggest that his sins were less egregious to God than those of others.

I find it equally amusing that anyone would take issue with Tony Blair's comment that God will ultimately judge his (and by inference our) actions in this life. Again, this belief is an orthodox tenant within the historic Christian faith. It would suggest to me that there may be more than a few surprises on "the other side."

[Cecil Turner]

What the video shows is that Mr Bush was informed of the potential for the failure of the levee system (whether by "breach" or "overtop" leading to subsequent failure) . . .

TT, this is silly. In the first place, there's a world of difference between overtopping and breaching, as has been beaten to death in the previous thread. Overtopping does not imply a subsequent failure, and by itself is a relatively minor event (though serious, and could cause deaths). Breaching is a disaster. AFAICT, the President is correct that nobody anticipated a breach, and the expert who warned him in the video agreed:

Today, Mayfield told NBC News that he warned only that the levees might be topped, not breached, and that on the many conference calls he monitored, “Nobody talked about the possibility of a levee breach or failure until after it happened.”

Further, when you're calling someone a liar, most folks think you need to get it right. Here, not only wasn't Bush lying, he wasn't even wrong.

[Gary Maxwell]

I am not going to mark this OT since its clearly about church goers and how they may influence the vote in Ohio once again. I fine Eleanor Clift right about as often as Raw Story but she seems to be very worried that a guy carries a Bible with him to political events. And as she put it Ted Stickland is the "perfect" Democratic candidate.

Here is the link :

OHIO according to Clift

[clarice]

Ever clueless Clift. Man she sets my teeth on edge whenever I see her..UGH

[larwyn]

Gateway Pundit posted this 12:03am last night:
"Unfortunately, the media has not been honest in its reporting on this story and the raging left is going nuts!"

This isn't about Blair but about resolution presented in
Missouri:
The Missouri House is looking at legislation to preserve and respect the Christian heritage of the State.

Here is the Resolution:

Whereas, our forefathers of this great nation of the United States recognized a Christian God and used the principles afforded to us by Him as the founding principles of our nation; and

Whereas, as citizens of this great nation, we the majority also wish to exercise our constitutional right to acknowledge our Creator and give thanks for the many gifts provided by Him; and

Whereas, as elected officials we should protect the majority's right to express their religious beliefs while showing respect for those who object; and

Whereas, we wish to continue the wisdom imparted in the Constitution of the United States of America by the founding fathers; and.....

You'll want to read the rest and

Another Rovian Conspiracy writes:

MO House Resolution Gets Immanentized
snip....
Now, KMOV and Atrios/Eschaton/Lord of the Open Thread don't link to the actual Missouri House Resolution... nor do they provide a link. After about 2 minutes, I was able to locate the pending resolution and the wording of the resolution is much different than how it is described by KMOV and Atrios.

IMHO Blair and others in Europe are coming to realize what the securlarization
of Europe has wrought, and many Americans are finally going to stand up and
stop the insanity.

I saved this last Wednesday. Very much worth the read:

An Ash Wednesday Confession
by Vanderleun at March 1, 2006 01:21 AM

It's purpose was to teach me to hate God.

........... Christian in crisis only. Only when my little happy world is darkened by something that seems to me at the time to bring down pain and confusion, do I remember God and seek Him. It's a shabby sort of religion, I know, but at least it is a religion of a sort.

It was not a religion of that sort during the several years I hated Him. It was a white-hot kind of religion. I sought out His hand and His works in all the dark reports that deluge us all on a daily basis. And I worked on it .

Pushing the Left, the LSM and their masters, the Democrats into this war is
a very "Rovian Plot" and the rejection of Sunday's Oscars picks by all the
yahoos out here must be drving them mad. That works for us.

[Lew Clark]

I don't think the resolutions go far enough. If we'd just go back to burning a few witches (Clift?) the rest might get their act together!

[clarice]

Well, if this story is true (it is from whirled nut daily so it may not be), they're going to go even crazier:
[quote]The American Legion, with 2.7-million members the largest veterans organization in the world, has launched a nationwide grass-roots campaign to support a bill in Congress that would stop the ACLU from receiving taxpayer-paid attorney fees in the many religious-establishment cases against the Boy Scouts, the public display of the Ten Commandments and other symbols of America's religious history and heritage.

The Public Expression of Religion Act, or PERA, would amend the Civil Rights Attorney Fees Act to withdraw the authority of courts to award attorney fees, or damages, to the American Civil Liberties Union, or anyone else, in lawsuits brought under the Establishment of Religion clause in the First Amendment.

Generally unknown to the public, the ACLU has received enormous attorney fee awards from judges in Establishment Clause cases.

The American Legion argues that not a single judge, as far as is known, has exercised the court's discretion to deny the ACLU's motions for attorney fees – usually at $350 an hour – to be paid by taxpayers.

This has been done in spite of the fact that the ACLU has incurred no actual attorney expenses, because its lawsuits are handled by staff or volunteer lawyers.

The Legion says the ACLU has used the threat of attorney fees to intimidate cities, counties, school boards and other locally elected bodies into surrendering to its demands to remove religion from the public square.

The ACLU recently has engaged in many lawsuits against the Boy Scouts' usage of public property, arguing the organization is religious because its Scout Oath includes a pledge of duty to God. [/quote]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49098

[Harry Arthur]

You as a child growing up in the sixties I heard a lot about how Christianity requires a christian to turn the other cheek.

Gary, both are equally true but operate in different contexts. Turning the other cheek is an individual response, when personal attacks are directed at you. The striking of the cheek was a euphimism for a direct personal insult. Jesus is simply requiring that his followers not respond in kind. Also, good advice when engaged in public civil debate, IMHO.

I would add that this concept in no way demands pacifism either individually or corporately if you follow the context in which this tenant was given. Nor does the concept require you to stand idly by while those around you are being physically attacked or injured.

Nor I would further argue, does the concept ever apply to governments. Paul elsewhere clearly teaches that governments are instruments of God for good and that the weak should receive protection from those able to provide it.

The concept is similar to anger. There is righteous anger such as you describe in Jesus' cleansing of the temple and there is unrighteous anger and personal hatred that we are to avoid.

[JM Hanes]

TT:

Substitute failure for breach? If you're willing to change the words, you can prove anything you like!

"Overtop" does not imply structural failure of any kind. It implies a temporary storm surge. If levees had been overtopped, we wouldn't even be talking about Lousiana, we'd be getting updates on recovery in Mississippi.

[Gary Maxwell]

Harry

As often happens someone says it more eloquently that I.

In my own opinion, if jesus returned to Earth he would have little time or patience for the Jimmy Carters of the world.

[Harry Arthur]

Gary, the Ohio According to Clift link does not appear to be working. Is it just me?

[Cecil Turner]

If we'd just go back to burning a few witches (Clift?) the rest might get their act together!

She turned me into a newt!

I got better.

[Gary Maxwell]

Subsitute Blanco on tape saying the Levees were intact. Was he suppose to mobilize knowing the Governors fo the state was a Democrat and incompetent? Sheesh

[clarice]

Harry, it doesn't. It's online Newsweek and I read it last night.

[Gary Maxwell]

2nd try

[Harry Arthur]

Gary, I thought your posting was very eloquent. Just thought I'd add a bit of "nuance" since this is a concept about which there seems much public confusion; especially with a certain Georgia peanut farmer.

[Rick Ballard]

I think I would go with His "sell your cloak and buy a sword" advice at the Last Supper as being more instructive than flipping the tables. Although he did turn right around and tell them to stop using them on the Mount a few hours (and one Roman ear) later.

Sometimes I wonder if Romans 12 derives from that admonition to not resist the civil authority. As Kim notes in a slightly different context, Romans 12 does antedate Jefferson's letter to the anabaptists by some 1700 years. The church is always healthier when it pays attention to Paul's advice in Romans.

Gary,

What I would like to know about the pacifist shift in the '60's is why it popped up in the mainlines at the same time that 'liberation theology' popped up with the RCs? They sure didn't attend seminary together. Gramscian drift?

[Harry Arthur]

2nd try works fine. Interesting article. Thanks.

"a newt?"

[Gary Maxwell]

Unfortunately for many of the "mainlines" it remains one of the few things of passion in their leaders. Not an attack on the membership of mainlines and I was raised in one. But there is a major disconnect there I believe between the elite and the members. Sounds familiar to another discussion we often have here.

[Gary Maxwell]

Who else but Eleanor Clift could write this:

"the legendary John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum."

Glenn was one of the stars of the S & L scandal and a charter member of the Keating Five. Metzenbaum was just on the wrong side of any fight of significance ever and no one thought him a leader ( or a legend except you know who).

[Rick Ballard]

Harry,

That's a reference to my favorite Monty Python movie - Monty Python and the Holy Grail

It doesn't read quite as well as it watches.

[larwyn]

I confess I would love to see that Old Testament God make a few appearances. Remember the scenes in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" when the Nazi opened it?

That would have been a terrific "green halo" for Iranian madman speaking at the UN and for Jimmmmy's posturing for the UN.

Odd how the UN just keeps popping into my fantasies of God saying
"ENOUGHT!"

I thank God for inspiring Al Gore to invent the Internet and now Cable TV - we get to use our "eyes to see" and "our ears to hear" and
they are too deranged to realize how they expose themselves every single day.

Will be a "fun" weekend if the likes of Robertson and Falwell control themselves don't offer up some inanity for the LEFT to cover itself.

[Gary Maxwell]

OT but too delicious to pass up. Filing dealines in Mississippi pass and Republican Chip Pickering ( Judge Pickering's son will have no Democrat opposition for his House seat). To many of you it will seem unremarkable. But let me explain. Couple the Democrats strategy of contesting every House seat with this failure. And then realize that along with Lousiana that Mississippi still remains a State that is overwhelming controlled by Democrats at the State level. They are probably 2 to 1 in control in the State House. Yet they could not find a candidate to run against him. The times have indeed achanged.

[larwyn]

"ENOUGH!

but "e not!" has a certain ring to it.

[clarice]

In the run up to Iraq some Bishops were clearly crossing the line. In part they were concerned about the beleagured communities in the ME. In part it was liberation theology. But in all cases is was misguided. No one elected them to decide.