Memeorandum


Powered by TypePad

« Who Was Woodward's Source For His Plame Leak? | Main | The Revolt Against Rumsfeld »

April 13, 2006

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451b2aa69e200d8345d953969e2

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Libby's Team Replies On Disclosure:

» Late Night Filing: Libby Responds to Fitzgerald from TalkLeft: The Politics of Crime
Scooter Libby has just filed a 29 page Reply Memorandum (pdf) (to Patrick Fitzgerald's Response) to Libby's Third Motion to Compel Discovery, and 25 pages of exhibits. I just obtained them and am about to start reading. Details soon. Also,... [Read More]

» Libby Files Response To Fitzgerald from Riehl World View
Joe Wilson, Karl Rove, Ari Fleischer and George Tenet expected to testify. Inference suggests Rove or other higher up likely still being investigated. Claims of significant infighting between agencies, particularly CIA may impact case. I've gone throug... [Read More]

» Should Plame blame game Prosecutor Fitzgerald get three strikes from Judicious Asininity
After years of investigation and millions of dollars of taxpayer's money spent trying to find who leaked the identity of super-secret, deep-cover, special agent Valerie "AK47" Plame, Patrick "Clouseau" Fitzgerald [Read More]

» Team Libby Responds from The Political Pit Bull
Last week, some in the MSM read Patrick Fitzgerald's filing and then proceeded to recklessly imply in their reporting that President Bush was directly involved in the disclosure of the Valerie Plame's name. Well, Team Libby's filing last night has... [Read More]

» Reader Tips from small dead animals
Still holding hopes for a major takedown of Rove/Cheney/Bush in the Plame investigation? Warning,this link may be dangerous to your state of denial; Here, for example, is a headline that will not appear: "Libby Didn't Lie, But Fitzgerald Did". "Guests... [Read More]

» Libby responds to Fitz from Sister Toldjah
Tom Maguire has a lengthy post up on Scooter Libbys defense team and their response to Pat Fitzgeralds court filing. Heres what I found to be the most intriguing detail from Libbys response (via Bloomberg): April 13 (Bloo... [Read More]

» Plame Overwhelmed from The Strata-Sphere
I will not have time until later tonight or possibly the weekend to dissect the filing by Libbys lawyers submitted yesterday.  Seems to be some juicy stuff in there.  Tom Maguire has his initial thoughts here, and Clarice Feldman does a quick ... [Read More]

» Libbys Team Replies On Disclosure By Just One Minute from The Absurd Report
I have long contended that Fitzgerald has been pursuing his own agenda instead of the charge he was assigned to investigate. He does not contend that any crime was committed from the original charge or has yet to reveal (He said he didn’t know????) w... [Read More]

Comments

clarice

Go to the last few pages..It's where the action is.

hcow

"The government's discussion of the NIE indicates that at trial all aspects of the government's response to Mr. Wilson will be relevant - including any actions taken by the President."

Go team Libby.

cathyf

I'm repeating this from the other thread:

The argument in the briefing says that they want the information about how the DOJ decided to proceed with the investigation in order to prepare for examination of DOJ witnesses that they may call at trial. Is this just a legal minimalism here? -- we are entitled because of the one reason, and that's good enough, so we aren't going to get into any other uses for the information to the defense. Or are they indicating that they don't think that an illegitimate investigation from day one is grounds for a dismissal long before they ever get to a trial?

cathy :-)

hcow

"Based on the government's articulated motive theory, the defense is also entitled to investigate the Administration's response to the leak, such as any alleged threats by the President to fire officials who were involved. For example, if documents indicate that notwithstanding
the President's public statements about
the leak investigation, Mr. Libby had no
reason to fear losing his job, the defense is entitled to production of such documents."

Go. Team. Libby.

Lew Clark

What I find interesting, but not surprising, is the role reversal here. In a real criminal case with real crimes committed, it is the defense that is trying to keep stuff from being presented to the jury and the prosecution arguing admissibility. But here the defense is trying to force the prosecution to let go of information in their possession so the defense can present it to the jury. While the prosecution is holding on to it, has stated they will not present it to the jury, nor will they release it to the defense (e.g. identity of UGO, Plame’s status with CIA, etc.). In fact, to the best of my knowledge, Team Libby has not asked for anything to be quashed. So who's guilty of what here? And why is the prosecution the one that appears to have a lot to hide?

cathyf

I'm going to borrow some phrasing here. Team Libby says:

A key government witness, Matthew Cooper, and another potential witness, Mr. Wilson, have both contended that Mr. Libby participated in a smear campaign organized by the White House to punish Mr. Wilson by outing his wife as a CIA agent.
As someone who reads the newspaper, I am going to contend that
Mr. Fitzgerald participated in (and continues to conduct) a smear campaign organized by opponents of the White House to punish Mr. Cheney by outing his work-wife as a government agent communicating information about White House policies at the direction of Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush.
So, when do we get the special prosecutor to interview Fitzgerald and all of the FBI agents and other staffers about their smear campaign?

But seriously, I find the whole NIE stunt by Fitzgerald to be pretty appalling. It is a direct assault upon the executive branch of government, and I think it adds more corroboration to the argument that Fitzgerald has been set up as a Fourth Branch of the government, not elected nor accountable to anyone elected. I mean look -- he's engaging in a separation of powers dispute with another branch of government!

cathy :-)

Rick Ballard

Cathy,

The answer might be in the exhibits - maybe Tom could ask Jeralyn for a copy?

Jeff

"Libby Didn't Lie, But Fitzgerald Did"

TM - You seriously think Fitzgerald lied? Instead of committing a grievous mistake?

With respect to Grossman v. the reporters, I presume the idea is that the alleged lies regarding what was said with the reporters bears rather directly on the issue of disclosing classified info to someone you shouldn't, whereas that's not the case with Grossman.

I'm sure Cheney will sleep better tonight after receiving this assurance from Team Libby at 21n6:

We emphasize that, consistent with his grand jury testimony, Mr. Libby does not contend that he was instructed to make any disclosures concerning Ms. Wilson by President Bush, Vice President Cheney, or anyone else.

Wouldn't it be nice if he contended that he wasn't so instructed?

Jeff

Folks who track this sort of thing will want to see how many of the blogs that pounded Libby and Miller on this will note the correction. But while doing that, keep breathing.

Let's see, I wasn't tracking but: talkleft had a post dedicated to it. eriposte too. The ups and downs of the Libby lied claim have been discussed at TNH, while emptywheel is away, far away. I haven't kept track of dkos, though I'm quite confident it's been discussed there. fdl is maybe the big exception, as far as I can see, though it's been discussed in the comments, I think. Those are the main left Plameologists I can think of.

Jeff

From reading the filing, I don't think there's anything new in the exhibits; it's all previously published stuff.

cathyf
You seriously think Fitzgerald lied?
Well, if Fitzgerald was "serious" about the definition of "lie" which underlies the indictment, then it's a "lie."

cathy :-)

Rick Ballard

Jeff,

Yeah, there's hardly anything new in the exhibits. You've nailed it. Nothing to look at there.

TalkLeft

Tom, you were gone yesterday it looks like, but all the liberal bloggers covered Fitz' corrections. Mine is here.

Cathy, good idea, I'll send Tom the exhibits.

I think tonight Libby laid out who he plans to attack --and that he plans to say some of them are lying or mistaken about their own recollections:

Marc Grossman, Ari Fleischer, Karl Rove, George Tenet and Joe Wilson.

Seixon

I think the only lefty blog to have issued a correction was The Left Coaster. I haven't seen anyone else correct it. georgia10 of DailyKos, who carried the story there, has not done so. Instead, she has taken it upon herself to censor and delete every single comment I write on DailyKos. My, my.

Oh, and for those keeping score, The Left Coaster still managed to spin the correction into something about Libby doing something bad - even worse than what they thought before! I don't know how that's possible, but hey, I'm not suffering from BDS either.

Rick Ballard

Gee, that's swell!! What a super kind gesture!!

Jeff

I think tonight Libby laid out who he plans to attack --and that he plans to say some of them are lying or mistaken about their own recollections:

Marc Grossman, Ari Fleischer, Karl Rove, George Tenet and Joe Wilson.

Good point, though don't forget Armitage and Powell as well. And Rove? Is Libby going to attack him, or merely call him to bolster the claim that LIbby was on firm ground when he testified that he said reporters were saying Plame was CIA and involved in his trip?

clarice

've submitted a short blog to AT re the filing with a longer article to follow this weekend.

I think the most significant poarts of the pleading is the suggestion the referral was jiggered, that the DoJ hesitated to proceed with it because it was insuffienct (remember DiGenova always said the CIA had to show the agent was covert and that they'd taken every step to protect her identity and that seemed unlikely here) and that the CIA was biased against the Administration. Further that Tenet may have had a significant role in the referral and even in pushing DoJ to proceed with it.

As to Fleischer, Wells is filing a sealed declaration tomorrow, which suggests that have some evidence respecting him which they do not yet want to make public.
He alleges that the government well knows that the documentation of what he was to tell reporters had no information about Plame and that the indictment never charges he told anyone about her being responsible for sending her husband to Niger, that he had no notion that hers was a classified position and neither did anyone else.

That there was substantial interagency fingerpointing in spring and summer of 2003, and the government cannot point to a single case excusing it from turning over documentation respecting "innocent accused"(Armitage?) or "subjects of grand jury investigation.

And Fitz sure does love newspaper evidence--He presented articles to the grand jury (ExhibsD,E,F--Pincus and Cooper stories) to the GJ which indicated Libby was smearing Wilson by outing his wife.

TalkLeft

In non-legalese, a "hostile witness" means one that is aligned with the other side in a lawsuit. The benefit to having the Court declare a witness "hostile" when called by the other side is that leading questions are allowed, just like on cross-examination.

So Libby, if he calls Joseph Wilson (or Karl Rove) as a hostile witness, can ask him leading questions.

A leading question is one that contains or suggests the answer. E.g.,

"What color was the car?" vs. "The car was red, wasn't it?"

On cross-exam (or when questioning a hostile witness) you can ask questions that only call for a yes or no answer, which prevents the witness from telling his story his way.

clarice

Jeralyn, Like the idea of biased newspaper reporting (remember Pincus was one of the first to spout the Ambassador Munchausen line and didn't correct the lies until 2 1/2 years later) as evidence?
Let's see how that Eliott Ness with a Harvard law degree works with real rules of evidence and opposing counsel.

topsecretk9

I find this to be a bit muddled - even if her status was in fact classified (and IIRC, Fitzgerald has asserted that in various filings, and the original CIA referral was for a leak of classified information), the key point would seem to be, did Libby know (or fear) that at the time he testified to the FBI and the grand jury?

I'm lazy and tired...but interrupted this argument to be another Fitz talking out 2 sides again.

Fitz has indicated that Libby is not charged with knowingly revealing classified --and since the investigation WAS ABOUT PLAME - I'm taking the defense is saying,

Hey...if you say he didn't knowing leak her classified status -- and her status period, presumably from his testimony, and so therefore not indicted on this ... then how can you assert he lied for fear of being fired.

I think in a nutshell. If the investigation really were about Plame,, they found a reporter agreed Libby said "Valerie Plame, Valerie Plame, Valerie Plame" and Libby said no I've never said Plame blah, blah, blah ... he would perhaps be lying because he fear loosing his job

So, I am I right...the defense just explained to the Judge what WOULD have occurred and since Fitz invoked "fear for job" they grabbed that little nugget-Bingo thank you- and plucked into their argument, which will probably work.

Thomas Esmond Knox

I haven't bothered doing a timeline (yet) but on July 12 2003 the information was unclassified but not yet public, right?

TM

Tom, you were gone yesterday it looks like, but all the liberal bloggers covered Fitz' corrections. Mine is here.

That late-night snark misfired (but it's mysteriously gone now) - even though the letter was clearly dated yesterday, I let the fact that the Times was just commenting on it gull me into thinking it was new news.

As to Fitzgerald deliberately lying, of course not. But he won't be indicted for his misstatements.

clarice

Yup.

They, like me, regard that referral letter as highly significant.
Indeed, they say, if the judge is to consider the privilege claim respecting it they want him to view it in private, and make findings about it on the record to make if part of any appeal should one be necessary.

Repeatedly, the memo notes the obvious Fitz razzle dazzle--make brao sweeping charges and when asked to put up the evidence, he claims it's unnecessary because the only charge is perjury so it's not relevant. I bet he gets away with this crap every day. Not in D.C. and not with these defense counsel.

clarice

I love the NYT' the Dog Ate our Email Explanation..

clarice

Wasn't there a two month delay between the time the referral letter was sent to DOJ and the time DoJ initiated a formal investigation?

topsecretk9

Marc Grossman, Ari Fleischer, Karl Rove, George Tenet and Joe Wilson.

Good point, though don't forget Armitage and Powell as well. And Rove?

I think they are being crafty. I think that is what they want us to think, but this is no true gameplan.

clarice

At the moment I think the game plan is to get the documentaary proof that Fitz cherry picked stuff to invent a conspiracy , deciding on good leaks/bad leaks depending utterly on his bias about the participants.

topsecretk9

finished thought...they aren't giving up their strategies to Fitz

Ultimately, from my reading...the defense is going to LET State and CIA duke it out betwixt themselves- no attacks necessary -Wilson's the cherry on top.

I expect their goal, is to have the Jury saying...know who was the Libby person and how he fit into this?

clarice

Something like that..in the process it'll show that a whole lot of people mentioned Plame except for Libby--and no one did it to punish Wilson by "outing" Plame.

I still think this case will never go to trial. I sure wouldn't want to be Tenet tonight.

topsecretk9

I'm adding to that, an " I think" so I don't get jime'd when or if I am wrong.

clarice

They'll bring out that every one of the witnesses Fitz is relying on has his own bias in a catfight..

clarice

Oh, and BTW the investigators were from the FBI and CIA which were not neutral either..

topsecretk9

My little obsession of late has been the NYT's subpoenaed notes...NYT's still hasn't told all 8, only Ari and Tenet (which is more interesting now, (especially since the other six are supposedly protect-able WH - ie..makes no sense)

topsecretk9

nightie nite...

glad you are back TM. I emaild exhibits a while ago.

clarice

Here's the NYT version--Not a single mention of the argumrnts about "classified", the demand for the "referral letter' or the discussion about Tenet. Nada.http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/13/washington/13libby.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Patton

Jeff,
i am surprised to see you posting with such damaged credibility.......

Care to entrall us with your next correction of the record. What will your next claim be that we have to waswte time debunking because you failed to follow the facts.

Its only fitting that you spent a week attacking Bush/Cheney/Libby and all of us based on the prosecutors lies, that we spend a little time understanding why you and others felt so sure that you just knew that Bush etc. misrepresented the NIE..when in fact all evidence shows they were straight shooters on the issue.

MJW

I'm pleased to see the direct attack on the argument Fitzgerald made several times in his brief that the information the defense sought wasn't material, because the prosecution has evidence to refute the defense theory it might support. I mentioned an example of this type of argument yesterday. A more or less consistant theme of Fitz is that the defense should simply accept as fact everything he asserts, and go from there.

MJW

Patton, though Jeff can at times be a bit irksome, I don't think he should be held accountable (beyond admitting the error, which he's done) for making an argument based on something in Fitzgerald's brief. Also, I doubt if there are many here who haven't made an incorrect claim now and then. I know I have.

Kate

I do notice that the "Do Not Criticize" sign has been taken off Fitz, at least as far as some of the media is concerned.

Now, I wonder if Bush would like to retract his comment regarding Fitzgerald's "dignified" investigation.

Dignified? I would have chosen a different descriptor.

Thomas Esmond Knox

8th July 2003. Information declassified. Right or wrong?

kim

Dungified.
======

Cecil Turner

One hopes that Mr. Fitzgerald enjoyed his headlines . . .

Indeed. Because they certainly bolstered the defense's discovery request, and opened the door for cute observations like:

If the press stories surrounding the government’s NIE disclosure illustrate anything, it is that this case is factually complex and that the government’s notion that it involves only Mr. Libby and the OVP is a fairy tale. [Oooh, that one hurt 'em.]
As to the corrections, I'm struck by the disparity between the initial stories, with breathless allegations of improper releases of classified information, claims the Administration misrepresented the information, and conflating releasing the NIE with leaking Plame's identity--versus the dry note that Fitz corrected his filing (or a "sentence" in the filing). The Daily Howler takes folks to task for the inaccuracies, and notes they even exceeded Kevin Drum's tolerance level. And though the TalkLeft post at least acknowledges the issue, it's still engaging in conjecture like:
Since the official declassification of the report did not occur until July 18, both disclosures had to be pursuant to the "instant" declassification in June that only Bush, Cheney and Libby knew about.
"'Instant' declassification in June"? Considering we're discussing a July 8th release of information, the June contention is a bit hard to credit (apparently based on separate discussions with Woodward, a conflation discredited by Libby's subsequent reluctance to release classified info to Miller). "Instant" is similarly dubious, since discussions about providing the intel had been going on for a month :
The chairman of the Senate intelligence panel, Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan.), said that Tenet had agreed to provide "full documentation" of the intelligence material "in regards to Secretary Powell's comments, the president's comments and anybody else's comments." [June 9th, 2003]
Moreover, it's apparent that there's little in the way of a learning curve. You'd think after being bitten by reckless extrapolation from a one-sided brief on the 9th, folks would exercise a bit more caution on the 12th . . . or at least stop treating Fitz's assertions as if they're coming from a burning bush.

Kate

Kim-much better. Bush can say he misspoke.

Thomas Esmond Knox

I'd call Wilson before Plame. That way Plame could never be sure what Wilson had said.

Kate

Well, the media is reporting Libby's filing as Rove and Ari leaked the name.

So, no wonder what happens, each filing will be reported in a way that reflects negatively on the Bush Administration.

The Bush Administration needs to take this on.

Kate

wonder=matter. Note to self: don't post were ticked off.

hcow

Oh, and BTW the investigators were from the FBI and CIA which were not neutral either..

Posted by: clarice | April 13, 2006 at 12:25 AM

It's a conspiracy against Libby, obviously.

kim

Conspiracies abound, but apparently not one to out Plame. No wonder Fitz didn't pursue that one.
==================================

Dwilkers

This leapt out for me:

The defense intends to show the jury that the controversy over intelligence failures during the spring and summer of 2003 led certain officials within the White House, the State Department, and the CIA to point fingers at each other. This bureaucratic infighting provides necessary context for the testimony of witnesses from different government agencies. In addition, Mr. Libby plans to demonstrate that the indictment is wrong when it suggests that he and other government officials viewed Ms. Wilson's role in sending her husband to Africa as important. We need the requested documents to prepare this crucial aspect of his defense.

If the judge buys into the contents of that paragraph it would seem to me everyone and everything related to this scandal at State, CIA, and the WH are material. Wilson's political leanings are material, as are Plame's. It means Libby's atty can beat the crap out of Tenet, and Plame's supervisor, and Russert, and Armitage...you name it.

The the whole thing unravels, at least to the extent that it can be discovered through documents and sworn testimony. In which case I suspect Fitz' goose would be cooked. I dunno if the judge will buy into that though.

cboldt

To the question "Did Libby know Plame was covert?", Fitz answered that in his affidavit of August 27, 2004, relating to the "Miller & Cooper Must Testify" case.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/libby-fitzgerald-affidavit-20060203.pdf>
Fitzgerald Affidavit of August 27, 2004 - FN 15 on Page 28

81. The testimony of reporter Miller is central to the resolution of that part of the criminal investigation concerning Libby. Her testimony is essential to determining whether Libby is guilty of crimes, including perjury, false statements and the improper disclosure of national defense information. 15 The grand jury needs to know when Libby advised Miller about Wilson's wife -- during their private meeting outside the White House on July 8 or during the three minute telephone call on July 12 -- and whether Libby qualified his disclosure to Miller by stating that he had heard it only from a reporter and did not know if it were true. Miller's testimony is essential to determine whether Libby fabricated his claim that he only told reporters what he claimed he had heard from Russert without a belief that the information he was passing on was either true or classified.

---
15 If Libby knowingly disclosed information about Plame's status with the CIA, Libby would appear to have violated Title 18, United States Code, Section 793 if the information is considered "information respecting national defense." In order to establish a violation of Title 50, United States Code 421, it would be necessary to establish that Libby knew or believed that Plame was a person whose identity the CIA was making specific efforts to conceal and who has carried out covert work overseas within the last 5 years. To date, we have no direct evidence that Libby knew or believed that Wilson's wife was engaged in covert work. [emphasis added]

Patton

Jeff "TM - You seriously think Fitzgerald lied? Instead of committing a grievous mistake?"

BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS COMES THY JUDGEMENT.
THE LEFT CLAIMS THAT BECAUSE BUSH RELIED ON TENET WITH REGARD TO WMD AND REPORTED WHAT THE CIA TOLD HIM, THAT BUSH LIED.

BY THAT STANDARD, THE LEFT, INCLUDING YOU, JEFF, RELIED ON FITZ, JUST LIKE BUSH RELIED ON TENET AND THUS BY YOUR OWN STANDARD YOU WERE LYING.

Patton

"""TM As to Fitzgerald deliberately lying, of course not."""

But under the new standard the left has set for Bush, Fitz was clearly lying. The lefts position is even though the CIA/DCI said one thing, Bush shoul dhave gone to pGae 72, subparagraph 3, bullet 19 and seen that one agency wasn't sure the CIA was completely correct. DUE TO BUSHS FAILURE TO DO THAT - HE WAS CLEARLY LYING.

Same goes for Fitz, he clearly just took the word of the document preparer that they had it right and represented that as fact to the public. Same thing Jeff and the left did. By their own Bush standard, yes, they all lied.

sad

Patton

exactly!!!

sad

As news outlets begin their reactions to the Libby filing we can all refresh our knowledge of what journalistst aspire to in their work. Bill Keller lists these points in reaction to an email question in the NYT.

--We believe in a journalism of verification rather than assertion,­ meaning we put a higher premium on accuracy than on speed or sensation. When we report information, we look hard to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
We believe in transparency -- that is, we aim to tell you how we know what we know, to attribute our information as much as possible to named sources, to rely on documentary evidence when we can. As your math teacher might have said, we "show our work."
We are agnostic as to where a story may lead; we do not go into a story with an agenda or a pre-conceived notion. We do not manipulate or hide facts to advance an agenda. We strive to preserve our independence from political and economic interests. We do not work in the service of a party, or an industry,­ or even a country. When there are competing views of a situation, we aim to reflect them as clearly and fairly as we can.
We don’t do this as a hobby but as a living. Whether you call it a craft, or a profession, or an occupation, it is something we take seriously, and we demand levels of training and experience that we seek to pass on from one generation to the
next.--

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/business/media/asktheeditors.html

Dwilkers
"Perhaps not surprisingly, given the media’s overwhelming interest in this case, an erroneous statement in the government’s response brief led to stories in the press that falsely accused Mr. Libby of making inaccurate statements – or even lying – to reporter Judith Miller about the contents of the NIE."

Aha. I kept reading that and thinking the "or even lying" part was weird.

You know what their point is though? I think what they're saying Fitz is attempting to prejudice the jury pool by labeling Libby a liar in the press on unrelated matters.

THAT's what the point of that passage is I bet - its groundwork for appeal.

JM Hanes

cboldt

#15 seems particularly striking now, doesn't it? Both for what it explicitly & tacitly admits. While the IIPA was clearly off the table, the other dog that wasn't barking here was any allegation that Libby even revealed classified information. Fitz is reduced to suggesting that in revealing "Plame's status with the C.I.A." -- no, wait, make that "information about" Plame's status -- Libby might conceivably have revealed "information respecting national defense." Of course, even that, as Fitz notes, would depend on establishing that her status was indeed a matter of national defense (a term which is both vague and as yet untested in litigation).

In retrospect, his press conference comments implying an excess of caution about creating a de facto official secrets act as a consequence of triggering the espionage act in Libby's case, seem considerably more disingenuous when you compare them to what he's really arguing to the court. Thanks for highlighting these particular blasts from the past; the juxtaposition is a revealing one.

JM Hanes

Dwilkers

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the defense team just tosses each successive Fitz filing straight into their Appeal This Too folder.

Florence Schmieg

sad, that Bill Keller email is hilarious!! These people truly cannot see themselves clearly in the mirror. What a joke the MSM has become.

noah

Especially in light of their story which included only part of that soldier's thoughts about dying for his country. Following which I cancelled my online receipt of the NYT.

sad

Noah

That was a travesty and previously inconceivable. No more.

maryrose

Florence:
You have it exactly right!
Kate:
Don't get discouraged, expect more trashing of Rove and Fleischer as the MSM continues to GET IT WRONG. The truth is starting to come out finally, we just have to be patient as all the players "fess up".

cboldt

JM Haynes

"#15 seems particularly striking now, doesn't it?"


It seemed so at the time it was revealed. And the contention that there might be a prosecution under the espionage statute(s) (18 USC 793, et seq) depended on getting over yet higher hurdles, not disucussed in the affidavit.


If this was a leak or espionage case, Fitz would have folded his tent before bringing the indictment.


And even at the time, his press conference could be seen as overreaching in its representations of "classified status" and other puffery. I know I saw it as such at the time, and I bet most readers here did, too. I can understand the urge to make the case into "something about an imporatnt leak," but he didn't need to do that, and he shouldn't have done that. It puts him the position of carrying the CIA's water.

Jeff

But he won't be indicted for his misstatements.

TM - I was under the impression that your position was that Libby lied, he just didn't commit perjury, false statements or obstruction of justice. No? They were just misstatements?

Anonymous Liberal

For what it's worth, I posted a correction on my post as soon as Fitzgerald issued his, and I noted that Fitzgerald's correction "renders much of this post irrelevant."

On an unrelated note, did anyone else notice the passage in Libby's response memorandum where his lawyers ask for documents that "indicate that notwithstanding the President's public statements about the leak investigation, Mr. Libby had no reason to fear losing his job."

I think that paragraph isn't getting enough attention. If there are any such documents, and Libby's attorneys clearly think there might be, they could be very politically damaging for the White House. They are essentially asking for documents which prove that, despite the president's public statements, Libby knew that he was not in danger of being fired. The only sort of documents I can think of that would fit that description are documents which indicate that Bush knew at the time he made his statement that Libby and/or Rove were involved in the leak.

Sue

AL,

It could also mean that Libby knew he had not revealed classified information. The key part of what the President said would get you fired.

Cecil Turner

They were just misstatements?

Absent mindreading, how could one know? Further, since we've only seen brief excerpts of the testimony and little of the other evidence, any guess would be just that. Trying to divine thoughts and motives behind words is difficult even in court . . . but if you insist on an evaluation now, the law is clear: he's not guilty of anything.

They are essentially asking for documents which prove that, despite the president's public statements, Libby knew that he was not in danger of being fired. The only sort of documents I can think of that would fit that description are documents which indicate that Bush knew at the time he made his statement that Libby and/or Rove were involved in the leak.

The subject is Plame's status, and they're asking for documents to show it wasn't classified:

The government surely cannot, on the one hand, contend that Mr. Libby knew he had revealed classified information (and thus felt in jeopardy of being fired), and on the other hand withhold from the defense information that would tend to prove her employment status was not classified and that others who knew of that employment had the same understanding. [emphasis added]
I'm not sure what type of mindset it takes to read that convoluted "Bush knew" explanation into such a simple concept, but I admit finding it more than a bit baffling.

Gary Maxwell

THAT's what the point of that passage is I bet - its groundwork for appeal.

More likely foundational work for a request to change the venue, which of course given the jury pool in DC, would be highly recommended to the Defense by any jury consultants.

Sue

Cecil,

What do you find baffling? The mindset or the statement itself?

MayBee

AL- Libby knew he wasn't in danger of losing his job because someone else was the leak Bush had threatened to fire over.

MayBee

***refresh and read before posting***
At least I didn't make it bold this time.

sad

Sue
It is interesting how many people are unable to entertain even the slightest idea that Libby was honest about anything. Since we all see the world through the prism of self-knowledge perhaps one shouldn't be surprised.

Gary Maxwell

I'm not sure what type of mindset it takes to read that convoluted "Bush knew" explanation into such a simple concept, but I admit finding it more than a bit baffling

Cecil after all this time on here with our conspiracy minded leftist bretheren, you know very well what type of mind set is involved. If Republicans were involved it must be bad. If it has anything to do with justifing a war then it was nefarious etc etc etc ad nauseum and QED blah blah blah until you scream.

Maldito

Sorry but as a casual observer, I haven't followed this closely so can someone tell me if Andrew Sullivan nailed Bush on Fitz' mis-statement?

Gary Maxwell

Dont read Andrew Sullivan sorry I dont have the stomach most days. Given how he got his little panties in a very self righteous twist before the relection of Bush, I would consider the source.

Sue

Sad,

I can't speak to Libby's overall honesty. I don't know the man. I was simply offering an alternative reason as to why Libby wasn't worried about being fired. He didn't reveal classified information.

richard mcenroe

What I like is that we haven't even gone to trial yet and Fitz appears to be completely on the defensive on almost every point at issue...

Sue

I can't open either of the pdf files Tom has linked above. Am I the only one?

Semanticleo

It is interesting to observe the scatatologists pick through holes designed
to trap the real targets. Ever heard of the
prosecutorial 'squeeze'? But, hope springs
eternal for the Bush Apologists who somehow
see Libby as the endgame. Happy trails to
you all.

Wagners' '...Valkyries' played through
a 10 megawatt McIntosh Amp and
Altec Lansing 'Voice of the Theatre'
drivers and woofers cascading yet
not competing with the rotor clap
of the Hugheys as FitzZorro, cigar
clenched in his ivory keys; shouts
orders to his men "Nail that endo-
morph!"

Almost instantaneously, rocket pods
explode around the rotund Rove,
too absorbed in masticating his
T-Bone on a stick, to react to the
lightning attack. Nevertheless,
he scrambles, thinning hair
a'smolderin', to shelter under a side-
walk Bistro table, which conceals
little of his ample frame. Fitz
pulls the dogrocket out of his mouth,
and almost imperceptibly whispers;
"I love the smell of bacon in the
morning."

MayBee

Thanks, clarice.
I wonder what Libby's attorneys know about that referral letter. I'm guessing they know there is something in there that is gold for them.

boris

The original "vigorous procurement = Key Judgement" was rather obviously conflated. There would be nothing to gain from a false assertion with the NIE declassification in the works anyway.

The way that was spun by Jeff and others was simply BDS unplugged. If all they can manage is "oops" then shame on them.

A real liberal would be mortified over what Fitz has been doing.

Anonymous Liberal

Fitzgerald suggested in his brief that Libby lied because--among other things--he was worried that if his involvement in this mess became known, he would be fired. Libby's attorneys are asking for documents that "indicate that notwithstanding the President's public statements about the leak investigation, Mr. Libby had no reason to fear losing his job." That could be a poor choice of words by Libby's attorneys, but it seems to me they are asking for documents which might tend to prove that Bush did not really take this threat very seriously, and therefore Libby had no reason to fear being fired. For example, if Bush already knew the full extent of Libby's role in this affair before he issued the statement, Libby could be pretty confident that his job was not in danger.

maryrose

sad:
I have said from day one that Libby didn't lie. I have been called naive and out of touch with reality for believing this continuously. I find much to be encouraged by in the latest Libby's lawyers filings. Hope springs etyernal, I know he is going to be vindicated.

Gary Maxwell

OT As often the case I find Tom Bevan with a very cogent article at RCP on the Duke affair, which says what I said yesterday only more eloquently. Here is a tast but I would read it all.


And, of course, no racial drama would be complete without at least one of the nation's top hustlers on the scene - in this case Jesse Jackson who said yesterday that "there's such a history of white men and black women and rape and assault it [the Duke case] conjures up many ancient feelings and fears." That's only true if there's someone there to do the "conjuring," and Jackson is always more than happy to oblige.

This case is about whether or not violence was done to a woman. It doesn't matter whether she was black, brown, yellow or white. If a woman was violated against her will, the perpetrators of the crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

If it turns out, however, that violence wasn't done to this woman and the whole thing is a hoax, there are going to be an awful lot of Duke lacrosse players looking for a place where they can go to get their reputations back. But as history has too often shown, no such place exists.

boris

seems to me they are asking for documents which might tend to prove that Bush did not really take this threat very seriously

More likely, as pointed out earlier, Libby knew he wasn't the original leak, UGO was.

clarice

MayBee-I guess he figured out what I suspected the delay between the CIA referral and the DoJ investigation was for a reason and that reason was the referral was based on false information.

I'm trying to reconstruct the timeline and if anyone recalls, please email me, (I have to make Passover cookies and will be back later.)

I regard that referral letter as the equivalent of an affidavit in support of a search warrant. In the search warrant instance, a fake affidavit means everything gets thrown out. Just saying.

sad

---I can't speak to Libby's overall honesty. I don't know the man. I was simply offering an alternative reason as to why Libby wasn't worried about being fired. He didn't reveal classified information.---

None of us can. His honesty is always one of the alternatives as new info is unveiled. The inability to consider that possibility is hindering many on the left and in the MSM from completing a real analysis of existing data.

clarice

AL--Just where in the indictment does it say Libby leaked any classified information?
You are conflating Fitz' presser with the legal documents in this case.

Anonymous Liberal

More likely, as pointed out earlier, Libby knew he wasn't the original leak, UGO was.

But that point isn't even in dispute. What kind of documents would be relevant to that point and why would Libby's team want them? McClellan said that Libby was not involved. Bush said he would deal appropriately with anyone "involved". This is what Fitzgerald is talking about. It seems to me that Libby's attorneys are fishing for evidence that Bush knew about his involvement before those statements were made, and therefore Libby did not have to lie to protect his job.

Sue

AL,

I think that is what I said. Libby didn't reveal classified information, therefore, he had no reason to be worried about his job. Besides, Fitzgerald suggests lots of things. Like baseballs that hit batters in the head and sand in his eyes. And first leakers. And lying to reporters.

TM

But under the new standard the left has set for Bush, Fitz was clearly lying.

I am firmly on both sides of this - that was exactly what I had in mind, but I ought to remember that some jokes just can't be explained - people either get it or they don't.

When Michelle Malkin wrote that "Newsweek Lied" about the flushed Koran story, she actually had to post an update saying, no, she didn't really think Newsweek lied in a meaningful, deliberate falsehood sense, but in the "Bush Lied" sense.

Sue

AL,

No he didn't. Bush said he would deal with anyone revealed to have leaked classified information.

sad

Query

If what is "leaked" is false, then is it a "leak?"

cathyf
It puts him the position of carrying the CIA's water.
I'm telling you, what Fitzgerald has done is to engage in (and suck the court system into) a conspiracy to smear a whistleblower. The whistleblowers are in the White House, they were blowing the whistle on incompetence and criminality in the CIA primarily, and the DoS too, and Fitzgerald and the FBI engaged in a powerful 2-1/2 campaign to smear and discredit them by harassing their personnel and "outing" their confidential procedures.

The differences between what Fitzgerald has done and what the White House is accused of doing is that the White House had the authority to smear Joe Wilson, though they didn't actually smear him, while Fitzgerald is operating outside of the law and doesn't have any legitimate authority to do what he is doing.

cathy :-)

Anonymous Liberal

Just where in the indictment does it say Libby leaked any classified information?

First of all, there is little genuine dispute that Plame's CIA affiliation was classified information. Fitzgerald has made that clear. Libby's primary defense to that charge is that he did not KNOW her status was classified, not that it wasn't classified.

Second, even if it wasn't, that hardly negates Fitzgerald's suggestion that Libby feared for his job if the true extent of his involvement became known. The only way that suggestion could be negated is by evidence that Bush knew about Libby's involvement and still had no intention of firing him, and therefore Libby had no reason to lie about it.

boris

What kind of documents would be relevant to that point and why would Libby's team want them?

The Bush statement that would apply referenced "crime" rather than "involved".

Any document dealing with Libby knowing about Plame and classified status would apply. Clearly any document referencing UGO as well.

It may be that by granting the request and Fitz unable to produce is what they wish to show.

sad

Fitz' suggestion that Libby feared for his job is based on what?

sad

Let me try again--How does Fitz know that Libby feared for his job?

boris

The only way that suggestion could be negated is ...

In criminal prosecution absence of evidence is just as good as evidence of absense.

Your speculation that Fitz has documentation of a Buch-Cheney conspiracy capable of getting Libby off the hook ...

... kinda thin. If Fitz even had that the current situation would never have developed. It's why you couldn't see the obvious conflation on the NIE fubar.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Amazon

  • Lee Child, Kindle short story
  • Lee Child
  • Gary Taubes

Traffic

Wilson/Plame