Waas On Rove

Murray Waas reviews the circumstances behind Karl Rove's fifth grand jury appearance.

I have a quarrel with his insinuation that Rove and Libby could not have caveatted their leaks because reporters wrote with confidence:

Rove also testified to the grand jury that when he told Cooper that Plame worked at the agency, he was only passing along unverified gossip.

...Cooper has also testified that Rove, as well as a second source -- I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, then-chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney -- portrayed the information about Plame as accurate and authoritative. Cooper has testified that based on his conversations with Rove and Libby, he felt confident enough about the information to identify Plame as a CIA officer in a July 17 Time story.

...If Rove's and Libby's accounts to the grand jury are correct, journalists wrote about Plame's CIA employment even though both White House aides said the information was unsubstantiated gossip. Both reporters have said that the information was not qualified in any way, and that they believed it authoritative enough to publish.

Emphasis added.  That would sound a lot less dramatic if Mr. Waas would emphasize two additional facts:

(1)  Mr. Cooper's confidence in publishing on July 17 may well have been boosted by the appearance of the Robert Novak column on July 14.  In fact, the final version of Mr. Cooper's "outing passage" reads as follows:

...some government officials have noted to TIME in interviews, (as well as to syndicated columnist Robert Novak) that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, is a CIA official who monitors the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. These officials have suggested that she was involved in her husband's being dispatched Niger to investigate...

Oddly, the first version of this story to hit the Web omitted the paragraph noting Robert Novak.  Might one infer that editors felt that a bit of reinforcement was needed?  Were they overcome by a desire to salute the competition?  Or was it just painfully obvious that they were three days late with this?

(2)  Robert Novak did not have either Libby or Rove for his primary source.  Whoever that source was (we are guessing Richard Armitage, then-Deputy Secretary of State), he may have been quite expansive and authoritative.  Beyond that, Mr. Novak also confirmed the fact of Ms. Plame's CIA employment with the CIA press spokesman Bill Harlow.  "I heard that, too" from Rove may have been plenty for Novak.

Let's reprise what Novak wrote and note the varied sourcing:

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him.

And here is Matt Cooper describing his chat with Karl Rove:

Rove did, however, clearly indicate that she worked at the "agency"--by that, I told the grand jury, I inferred that he obviously meant the CIA and not, say, the Environmental Protection Agency. Rove added that she worked on "WMD" (the abbreviation for weapons of mass destruction) issues and that she was responsible for sending Wilson. This was the first time I had heard anything about Wilson's wife.

As an aside, it is interesting in re-reading his account to see how hazy Matt Cooper's memory is.  For example:

As for Wilson's wife, I told the grand jury I was certain that Rove never used her name and that, indeed, I did not learn her name until the following week, when I either saw it in Robert Novak's column or Googled her, I can't recall which.

He can't recall?  He was working on the big story about which all of Washington was buzzing, and he can't recall?  Where's the indictment?

 

Comments

[topsecretk9]

TM

...Cooper has also testified that Rove, as well as a second source -- I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, then-chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney -- portrayed the information about Plame as accurate and authoritative. Cooper has testified that based on his conversations with Rove and Libby, he felt confident enough about the information to identify Plame as a CIA officer in a July 17 Time story.

Really, Libby and the hard hand Rove hammered it in?...

you really need to listen to your bad self
and when you read it it will surly feel as if for the very first tim

Anyway, here we go, from the WaPo:

The sources said Fitzgerald looked surprised in the August 2004 deposition when Cooper said it was he who brought up Wilson's wife with Libby, and that Libby responded, "Yeah, I heard that, too."

The prosecutor pressed Cooper to then
explain how he knew about Wilson's wife in the first place, and Cooper said he would not answer the question because it did not involve Libby, the sources said.

[topsecretk9]

oh, i didn't mean italicized were your sentiment where I asked really.

[topsecretk9]

Shoot, Larwyn's season is over...you can't beat fouling a thread post numero uno!

[topsecretk9]

Cooper has testified that based on his conversations with Rove and Libby, he felt confident enough about the information to identify Plame as a CIA officer in a July 17 Time story.

Also, then why did Cooper write a super double secret email asking time head to NOT source Rove and asking for them to get independent confirmation form the CIA?

We all asked, Did TIME get independent conformation form the CIA?

[topsecretk9]

OK, my point is not well made

what I am trying say is, Cooper lead Fitz to believe he was told of Plame's identity at his Libby Depo by SOMEONE ELSE...and then when he does testify to Rove... we find that Rove only said HIS WIFE worked at CIA and she arranged the trip.

If Cooper was so CONFIDENT with a "his Wife...arranged the trip" and a "I heard that too" then why's he send an email requesting an independent confirmation?

Cooper KNEW before, got the requisite quasi what he wanted and said make a Harlow courtesy call to make it all Kurtz quality "reportable"

[JJ]

I fired up the Laserjet and printed off 42 pages of the emptywheel comment thread mentioned in the last post. It made for great after-supper reading; but requires recliner and pillow back of brain pan.

Lots of good vocab.

Lots of speculation on which and where players belong on the timeline and what were their motives, means, and opportunities.

I found it much more informative than the professional media and M. Waas.

Even though it's like walking through a thick forest of references.

[Patton]

In his interviews, Cooper was much more less sure what Libby told him. He used the term..'OR WORDS TO THAT AFFECT'.

So Cooper was admitting he is not sure what the exact words were...yet we would convict someone based on the testimony of someone who says he is not sure what Libby said???

"""Cooper said Libby replied "Yeah, I've heard that too" or words to that affect. """"

[Patton]

LIBBYS TESTIMONY COULD HAVE BEEN SEEN AS VERY HELPFUL TO FITZS' INVESTIGATION.

Even if Libby didn't have all the particulars right, he told Fitz that some big time reporter in DC (He thought he remembers it being Tim Russert) told him about Plame.

So Libby clued the investigators into the fact that some other big time reporter had allready received information about Plame that he passed to Libby.

Fitz could have then gone back to UGO and said:
'Look, we have reason to believe you may have told some other bigtime reporter besides Novak, can you think of anyone else??"

UGO might have said..."Ohh, yeah..I told Bob Woodward, that might be the guy Libby is thinking about'.

SEE, LIBBY WOULD HAVE BEEN HELPFUL TO FITZ AND FITZ WOULDN'T HAVE LOOKED LIKE A FOOL AND MADE SOOO MANY INACCURATE STATEMENTS AT HIS PRESSER.

If Fitz had actually listened to Libby and understood that peoples memories are fragmentary, he may have found Woodward much earlier.

Even I understand that when my 3 year old sees an old man with grey hair, he calls him PaPa, even though it isn't his Grandfather. But he isn't intentionally misleading me...

[lemondloulou54]

Tom, Aren't you the least bit troubled that the two most senior aides in the Bush admin.--Rove and Libby--might have been "gossipping" about a CIA officer who was married to someone who had hit a raw nerve with the big bosses? And that they weren't "gossipping" to their spouses or their colleagues at the water cooler, they were "gossipping" to two leading WH journalists? Doesn't it bother you that at the very least they were both so totally incompetent? In your mind, aren't Rove and Libby rather powerful men? Do powerful men engage in "gossip" like this with other, granted, less-powerful-but-still-rather-significant reporters on a regular basis? You see, R & L can't have it both ways. They can't be big and powerful and important and fielding hundreds of phone calls and attending critical meetings 24-7 and then on the other hand be gossips.

[Patton]

Lemon,

those two white house aids were setting the record straight..

Wilson has been proven a liar and they simply corrected the record that Wilson went on the trip because his wife worked at the CIA. I am MORE concerned about a CIA sooo stupid it sends spouses on CIA missions
with no secrey agreements and let them write OP-EDs in the NYT about their missions and then repeatedly lie about the facts.

[Patton]

Word to CIA Agents:

Don't send you spouses on CIA missions then let them write Op-EDs falsely attacking the Commander in Chief.

Perhaps if the covert agent manual said this Plame wouldn't have a problem.

[kim]

Good God, you so trivialize gossip. What a hoot, can't be both big, powerful men, and gossips. Musn't have it that way. Might disturb my preconceptions.
==================================

[Kate]

Actually, I would argue that the journalists were gossips, and that the powerful White House officials made the mistake of trying to hurry the pests off the phone. I bet Rove wishes he never took that call. Being so work focused is a a curse, he should have just said tell fat boy I'll call him when I get back.

It's amusing that Waas has so much faith in the national media. They would never publish gossip or nonsense without substantive confirmation. Murray, of couse they would.

So the key witness in Rove's trial will be Mr. Democratic Operative himself, Cooper.

This will be fun.

[kim]

Remind me, my dear, to remand Mindy.
=======================

[kim]

Ooh, I'm gossiping.
=============

[kim]

Girlie men gossip.
============

[kim]

Does the government ever hire mock juries? What would happen if they ran what Fitz has past one? I might argue that, absent more formal supervision, Fitz has a DUTY to find out whether a jury will pass him. Grand juries only hear the prosecutor's theory.

It seems a dereliction of duty for Fitz to proceed with Cooper as star witness. However, if Fitz wants to mistake his duty, it will at least be spectacular. Watch Cooper fight not to testify.
=====================================

[Kate]

Cooper looks nervous to me. There is something going on there. Plus, his whiny performance on the courthouse steps was rather, er, disappointing.

Now the White House should know this indictment may be coming down and needs to get out in front of this story. Bush needs a break, but I don't think he will get one from Fitz. We need to start to hear the problems with this whole case, not just that Fitz is dignified.

This may be the bottomming out for Bush. I predict that the base will be outraged by an indictment of Rove on such flimsy charges. Plus the gleeful bias of the media will be disgusting to behold.

[Cecil Turner]

I think you're being too kind to Waas.

Wilson had been dispatched in 2002 on a CIA-sponsored overseas mission to investigate claims that Saddam Hussein had attempted to purchase weapons-grade uranium from Niger. Wilson reported back to the agency that the allegation was mostly likely unfounded; however, in his State of the Union address in January 2003, President Bush stated the British government had information that Hussein did try to buy the uranium from the African nation.

Horse-puckey. He was sent to investigate reports of a sale agreement, and reported back such a sale was "highly unlikely." In fact, his report tended to support the "attempted" allegation. Note how the meme has shifted from "Wilson debunked the forgeries" and that proved "Bush lied when he said Iraq bought uranium from Niger" (both of which fall afoul of easily-checkable facts). So now we'll just put Bush's actual words back in place, and pretend Wilson's trip might've discredited the sought claim. This is completely dishonest reporting, and Waas has to know it.

Libby was indicted by the grand jury in the leak case on five counts of making false statements, perjury, and obstruction of justice as part of an alleged effort to conceal his own role, and perhaps that of other Bush administration officials, in outing Plame as a covert officer.

Plame was covert? Prove it.

Both men have also said they did not know of Plame's covert status.

Well, I don't know about Plame's covert status, and I suspect nobody else does, either.

Both reporters have said that the information was not qualified in any way, and that they believed it authoritative enough to publish.

Both of the pertinent comments were variants of "I heard that, too." (And while Fitz may think that's definitive--"LIBBY confirmed to Cooper, without elaboration or qualification, that he had heard this information too"--I suspect most folks would be a bit surprised to hear that characterization, or that it was "authoritative enough to publish.")

Geneva Overholser, a journalism professor at the University of Missouri, former chair of the Pulitzer Prize board, and former editor of the Des Moines Register, went even further, questioning whether columnist Novak should have used Karl Rove as a source that Plame worked for the CIA based on brief comments that Rove made that he simply heard the same information that Novak did.

Hmmmm, ya think?

[kim]

How come Waas, the new Woodward, didn't get a Pulitzer?
====================================

[Patton]

If Wilson had gone to the medi and lied about the war effort....Libby and Rove would have never mentioned Plame to anyone.

Once your spouse takes the enemies position, don't expect this Nation to treat you with kid gloves.

[kim]

Fair game she was, particularly if involved. What a lie that was, predtending to be outraged that she could be so characterized.
==========================

[Kate]

Well, we're all forgetting the 11th Commandment.

"Thous shalt not criticize Noble Whistleblower Wilson"

Perhaps it's not a commandment, perhaps it's a new law-the Fitzgerald Law, that powerful Republicans can not pushback against lying critics. If you do so, 30 years in prison, thus says Fitz.

[noah]

"weapons grade uranium"...the only uranium that is NOT weapons grade in some sense is DEPLETED uranium (once the U-235 is removed its gone baby gone). So I would say using the phrase is ignorant or disingenuous.

[MaidMarion]

As "unpaid advisor" to the Kerry Campaign, Joe Wilson's marching orders were to push the "Bush Lied" meme vis-a-vis the famous 16-words in the SOTU speech.

Joe was on that particular disinformation path up until the appearance of Robert Novak's July 14th article. Novak unintentionally dropped a nugget into the Kerry Campaign's lap by mentioning Valerie Plame's name in his article. Someone, probably in or connected to the Kerry Campaign, looked at Novak's article and realized they could make MORE political hay zeroing in a purported "Plame leak" than on the purported "Bush lied" meme which wasn't really gaining much speed at the time.

From the Kerry Campaign's perspective, the "Plame leak" would have a better chance of achieving their end goal: an indictment of a high-level Bush official handed down right before the November 2004 election. Such an indictment would surely secure a win for Kerry.

But Fitz didn't conclude his work before the election...thanks to Judy Miller.

And I think Matt Cooper's own stonewalling during this same timeframe had to do with this as well. Hillary didn't want an indictment to come down right before the November 2004 election, and couldn't be certain Judy would hold out, so had Mandy whisper in her husband's ear.

[noah]

MM...now THAT is a conspiracy theory. Personally, I prefer fact based bullshit.

[Cecil Turner]

"weapons grade uranium"...the only uranium that is NOT weapons grade in some sense is DEPLETED uranium . . .

The term "weapons grade" is normally used to describe uranium enriched to ~90% U235 (and hence suitable for use in a weapon). The yellowcake in question is not weapons-grade, or close, and it's clearly wrong to use it the way Waas did . . . but most folks are ignorant on the issue, and it appears to me to be an honest mistake.

[Rick Ballard]

Noah,

Perhaps you're indulging in irony this morning but if you look at the series of events as a string of unplanned reactions to events MM's theory isn't bad at all.

Would you expect Kerry to not miscalculate?

[Cecil Turner]

MM's theory isn't bad at all.

The first bit is perhaps plausible, but she lost me with Miller and Cooper stonewalling to save the Bush presidency.

[Seixon]

Wait, hold up. Didn't Cooper write in his e-mail to his editors that Karl Rove had told him that Wilson's wife "apparently works at the agency" on WMDs?

If the information was authoritative, why did he say "apparently"?

Also, why would Rove release him from confidentiality on their conversations if he knew that Cooper would say something that would reveal Rove to be a liar? That makes absolutely no sense.

Oh well, if Fitzgerald indicts Rove and not Armitage, I will have lost any respect for the prosecutor. I guess maybe Armitage and Grossman have taken it upon themselves to lay the blame on the White House for their own actions, and it seems to be working.

[Rick Ballard]

OK, that is a bit implausible but the play on an indictment isn't. It's always rear view mirror steering on that side and the hope for a Walsh/Weinburger repeat was there. It's always back to the future in neverland.

[Noone]

No one figured that Plame and CIA pals planned the whole thing, including the war and, later, protests , to get rid of mandatory WMD training(Rice) at CIA for all OOs(operations officers or Plame case:OOPs). WMD became big news and Plame leaked the program and began memoing everyone in the US government who had to listen. Powell was the first victim. The memos continued so that Plame could say she was leaked. She finally leaked herself in 'Vanity Fair' and her expectations for that followed through in Iraq and Spain. Other countries like France and Italy that would'nt go along just had alot of problems.

Plame was usually leaked by her husband.

[Texnocrat]

Patton,

Plame was an operations officer. Ever think she was using Wilson and had some plans later on?

[kim]

Tex, we still don't know her role. Maybe she is DCI in the shadow government.

CT: Consider that the Clintons might have been patriots and couldn't face the mess that Kerry would have made for 4 or 8 years.
======================================

[ghostcat]

Random thoughts:

1. Armitage and Woodward are patriots, and so is Fitz.

2. Woodward is working on his next big book/story.

3. The VIPers have been running a laundering scheme for state secrets (rather than money).

Have a nice day.

[Shadowguv]

Kerry hired 'international' people. CIA, PC, and others. Wilson just reminded everybody of the 'dems got there by killing' theory that Plame did after she admitted who she was in 'Vanity Fair.' An operations officer, paramilitriily trained. A OO is the best the country has to offer out of CIA.

Fitz did'nt do his job at all. He is an organized crime investigator.

Yellowcake was used by Plame, Wilson, and CIA as part of a larger plan when the war started.

Oh yes, Got that the 250 Clinton business leaders that lived underground got sold by Bush, but I don't think they had a Director Central Intelligence.

[Other Tom]

Just an uninformed hunch: whereas a normal federal prosecutor in the course of a normal grand jury investigation would not even think of doing so, I believe that Fitz is enough of an ambitious zealot that in this unusual circumstance he will ask for, and get, an indictment of Rove.

[cathyf]

As somebody (Fedora? AJ?) has already pointed out, Joe & Val Wilson's relationship to Jacqueline Wilson has been curiously cordial, considering that Joe and Jacqueiline were still married when he started sleeping with Val. That piece is very odd -- Jacqueline looks very much like a French intelligence agent, and it looks to me like through 3 administrations (Reagan, Bush I, Clinton) the State Dept and NSC had no problem at all having a diplomat and NSC staffer who to appearences was married to a foreign agent. (J & J's marriage lasted from 1986 to 1998)

But anyway, tell me I'm nuts. After all, if Joe Wilson was a French agent planted in the diplomatic corps and later the NSC, and he had blackmailed and "turned" CIA agent Plame (who was at loose ends after Ames outed her) then why in heaven would they have drawn so much attention to themselves in 2003?

cathy :-)

[Cecil Turner]

I believe that Fitz is enough of an ambitious zealot that in this unusual circumstance he will ask for, and get, an indictment of Rove.

I suspect Rove thinks it's a real threat, at least, or he should have avoided testifying. Giving Fitz another 3+ hours of testimony to sift through looking for discrepancies makes no sense, if it was avoidable.

[clarice]

Don't forget, that Luskin represented the last guy against whom Fitz had to drop a case when it turned out he confused the prey with the predator. I doubt he wants to run into that buzzsaw again.

[Other Tom]

The only way for Rove to avoid testifying would have been to take the fifth, which would be suicidal. My guess is he simply decided to take his chances and hope for the best.

[topsecretk9]

Wait, hold up. Didn't Cooper write in his e-mail to his editors that Karl Rove had told him that Wilson's wife "apparently works at the agency" on WMDs?

If the information was authoritative, why did he say "apparently"?

This was my point in the beginning, even though in a very tortured way. I also think Cooper was/is playing games which has been misleading to Fitz.

[Lew Clark]

I'm really of a mixed mind on this. By law and reason, there should have never been an indictment of anyone. But this isn't law and reason, it's politics. If we know what we think we know, the case against Libby, on a scale of 1-100 is about a 7. A similar charge against Rove (perjury/obstruction) would be about a 3.5 on the same scale. But this is politics. Fitz's fan base wanted him to get Rove/Cheney/Bush. No one ever heard of the Scooter until this broke. So, I'm afraid, Fitz might say: “I'm in deep legal do do with Libby, but still the darling of the press. Why not do a phony indictment of Rove and really give them the long awaited Fitzmas. I'm not going to win the Libby case, so no problem on losing the Rove case too. At least I'll give my public a moment of orgasmic pleasure.”
And there's the Ronnie Earl gamut. If a partisan hack prosecutor can bring down the most powerful member of the House of Representatives on phony charges. Why can't Fitz have some fun too?

[Patton]

My sense, and I may be deliberately misleading you'all so keep that in mind.....

But I think Plame was ready to get out of the CIA, she had twins, had post partum depression and probably wanted to dump the CIA BS and go raise her kids...

Her agency had to have been hell to work at once it was revealed how wrong they were on bascially every facet of Saddams WMD...she was probably ready to say the hell with it and they would probably be cleaning house anyway.
BUT....little Joe wasn't bringing in the kind of money she needed to just quite working and be a stay at home Mom.

So we have a great way to make some big bucks, become high profile, write a book and go on the speaking circuit.

They are rolling in the money now and she is out of the agency and free to raise her kids.

I suspect she is pretty damn happy, but for the idiotic comments of her spouse which noone on the liberals side would care to compain about anyway.

[Squiggler]

Well, let her enjoy her happiness while it lasts. If the McCarthy information proves as "nuclear" as it now appears it might be, she and Joe will be raising their kids from the other side of bullet proof glass with a phone in their ear. Let's just hope they get facilities close to home.

[Patton]

"""when I either saw it in Robert Novak's column or Googled her, I can't recall which.""

And just what would he have gotten if he had GOOGLED HER at that time?????

Remember when 'googled' meant something entirely different in the Clinton adminstration.

[larwyn]

More details on other Fitz thread:

RAW STORY has learned.

U.S. compliance with the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment will be the topic of May 5 and 8 U.N. hearings in Geneva.

wirtes Gateway Pundit today in:

Amnesty International Is Taking US to UN Torture Court This Week

Seems UN is going to the dirty work to boost Dana's Pulitzer, cannonize MOM and the rest of the cabal. Wonder how much help Dana's hubby's foundation gave to round up "testimony". Front page news/editorials and 24/7 coverage by CNN not in doubt.

Pays to have the "word users" on your side to distort fact and reality.

[richard mcenroe]

Why is it every time I read the words "Raw Story has learned..." I seem to hear "Live! From New York...!"

[maryrose]

Maid Marion's theory makes sense to me. I remember reading in the ABC's THE Note that whether or not President Bush got re-elected would depend on how far along or how big a deal the Plame case became.
I know Hillary didn't want Kerry to win so her talking to Mindy isn't so far-fetched.
I also agree with Kate. Cooper looks uncertain and nervous and had a waiver for a long time. I don't think he would have held out and gone to prison. He isn't as tough as Judy Miller. Also Time magazine's demotion of Cooper and firing of Novak is probably because Time had to come out and say they would turn over information to the prosecutor and other msm outlets didn't think highly of them for doing that. It's payback big time for those two.

[kim]

Oh, those googly eyes.
=============

[topsecretk9]

--Maid Marion's theory makes sense to me.--

Mary, what Maid Marion theory are referring? Is it in this thread?

[boris]

theory

[ghostcat]

The VIPers are running a secrets laundering operation, with selected members of the media serving as fences.

[ghostcat]

TS Puppy had the gist of that epiphany around 10:30 Wednesday evening.

[maryrose]

ghostcat:
I love your posts -they are always insightful and entertaining.

[larwyn]

WILSON & PLAME LIVE AT ABC NEWS TABLE AT

CORRESPONDENTS DINNER

ON CSPAN NOW

[ghostcat]

maryrose -

Thanks? My commenting style has been called turd-in-the-punchbowl. Usually gets people's attention. Most are simply offended, but some start to wonder what it's all about. Often days later. On occasion, I eventually add value.

[MayBee]

ghostcat-
On occasion, I eventually add value.

those are the times the turd turns out to be a Baby Ruth.
:-)

[maryrose]

Maybee-
LOL

[ghostcat]

Reminds me of an old joke. Won't repeat it here, but the punchline is "Good thing we didn't step in it!"

[Jay Rosen]

How come Waas, the new Woodward, didn't get a Pulitzer?

Because the Pulitzers are for newspaper journalism and Waas reports for National Journal and American Prospect, both magazines.

[ghostcat]

Well, if the WaPo runs a condensed version of the book he's working on, The Raporter (sic) may get one next year. Should, at least.

[Syl]

Spent the evening reading that comment thread at EmptyWheel.

Interesting exercise in Offsetting Bias.

However one little bit especially caught my eye. Had to do with the Rove claim that he still does not remember the conversation with Cooper. PollyUSA puts up quotes where he admits the conversation took place.

(Well, yes, obviously the conversation happened--email and Cooper's testimony kinda prove it. That doesn't mean Rove actually remembers it.)

Along the same lines re Novak/Rove, some guffawing over the fact that Novak considers Rove a source while Rove claims he learned from Novak. Hardy Har.

Well, we here do that kind of logic too. It's simply mashing together two different notions as if they are equivalent.

But Rove could be Novak's source and Novak could be Rove's source. Here, I'll prove it:

Novak: Hiya Karl. Hey, this'll just take a second. I just found out that Wilson's wife is CIA and sent him on that gig to Niger. How about that?

Rove: You heard that too?

[Here Rove is Novak's 'confirming' source.]

Novak: Yeah! And her name's Valery Plame, guess that was her maiden name. Don't know. And she works in CPD on WMD. Whooda thunk?

Rove: Whooda thunk, indeed!

[Here Novak is Rove's source for previously unknown info.]

Novak: Well, thanks! Talk again soon!

Rove: Bye!

[ed]

It seems that some of you seem to have found a new outlet for your Clinton Conspiracy Theories. Jerk he may be, but if and when Jow Wilson ends up in prison, please let me know.

[cathyf]

Ok, I suggested we move the catty comments about Val and Joe here. C'mon over, folks!

cathy :-)

[kim]

What ed, you hoping for a shiv in his back for betraying you so?
=====================================

[Squiggler]

Flopping Aces

I posted this on the other thread ... it really is a must read.

[kim]

Let's see, Jay, if I can make it any more obvious that I don't read much. Answer me this one: How come everyone refers to the Mapes 'forgeries' when the esteemed Columbia Journalism Review ran a wonderfully researched and thoughtfully written essay blowing all that 'hoax' busisness out of the water?
====================================

[Squiggler]

On point to both this thread and the "Times on Rove" thread

[kim]

Didn't some old guy get rather Swift Boated on that one?
===================================

[cathyf]

The article which is quoted in the Flooping Aces link that Squiggler contributed is now on opinionjournal (the WSJ free site.) (I think Clarice predicted that it would be.)

cathy :-)

[MayBee]

ghost cat- just to be clear (I'm paranoid that I look like a big meanie now), I don't endorse the turd theory. But it made me laugh.

[ghostcat]

MayBee -

I'm quite capable of being a turd. Not to worry.

[Tom Maguire]

I am currently leaning towards Fitzgerald indicting Rove.

The key to the Libby case seemed to be Libby sourcing everything to reporters - Fitzgerald really wanted some evidence that Libby knew Plame was classified, or leaked without authorization, or some such.

And now Rove has the same story - he sourced his leak to Cooper to other reporters.

If Fitzgerald can indict once for that, why not twice?

It's weak, it makes Cooper his star witness, it forces us into techno-babble about lost emails and WH phone logs, but he might go for it.

One other reason - with both Rove and Libby indicted, Fitzgerald may persuade himself that one is more likely to fold up and deal.

[clarice]

Except--they did hear it from reporters--BECAUSE UGO told them ,because someone told Pincus,and because WILSON told Senators who were anti-Administration and they obviously told some reporters, too. Do you suppose that Rockefeller and Schumer and Conyers didn't whisper this to reporters? And there were reporters who knew well before the WH did--Mitchell comes to mind.

[clarice]

He may, of course, but he will destroy himself not his targets if he does.

[Squiggler]

Are you sure you haven't been hanging out just a tad too long with the "get Rove just because he's
Rove" crowd? Just checking.

[Squiggler]

I think Cooper is more likely to get indicted. He seems to be the one having the memory lapses.

[ghostcat]

What were those developments since October 2005 again?

[Tom Maguire]

Are you sure you haven't been hanging out just a tad too long with the "get Rove just because he's
Rove" crowd?

Not sure. But it did give ne a renewed sense of Fitzgerald's *possible* commitment to the cause.

I am not saying it is a strong case - I am jusy saying I think we ought to expect him to bring it (Sort of a "Life After Rove" theme).

[larwyn]

If he does it, we know why:

Dems want Rove off the field for the November midterms.

Dems need more cover for their elected leakers; Rocky, Durbin and others.

Dems need cover for their bureaucrat leakers: MOM is first.

Dems need cover for their "FREE PRESS" mouthpieces.

Fitz needs cover for fizzzzzzzzing out. Only hope for career is DEM WIN ONE HOUSE OF CONGRESS IN NOV.

Otherwise Fitz is toast.

Unless, he sees the light of truth and turns on those who ran the con on him.

I hope the DOJ moves on Rocky et al very soon - so it doesn't look as if it is a reaction/pay back to anything that Fitz may do.

We will see soon what the "Crawford Kid" (Thomas Lifson's coinage) will do. Perhaps that great performance tonight was such "left-handed" humor it was really a throwing down of the gauntlet.

You made fun of me for all of this...but you forgot...."You don't count your money while you're sitting at the table.
There'll be time enough for counting, when the dealings done."

I sure hope so.

[clarice]

If that should happen, Rove will do exactly what he's been doing as a consultant.

[Dana]

http://internationalpress.blogspot.com/

Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News Channel is about to stun the political world. Fox will take a hard left turn in its political coverage. Long known as the first choice among right wing Republicans, Murdoch hopes the move will place Fox just ahead of the rapidly changing trends of American politics. International Press investigative reporter August Riis has worked for weeks cultivating an insider who has been with Murdoch publications from the origins in Australia through the current media empire.

[larwyn]

Clarice,
Rove may try - but what batch of the spooked Pubs will want him around with the LSM deluge.

Best strategy if for Bush admin to preempt.

Posted yesterday that FBI has supoenas to serve on Molloham's NGO's. But need more from CIA and DOJ before Fitz.

[clarice]

Very amusing, Dana.

[larwyn]

Dana,
FNC beats totals of CNN + CNN HEADLINE NEWS + MSNBC.

So now he wants to split the ratings share that the others total?

That makes about as much biz sense as an auto maker jumping into the large SUV market right now.

Are you sure the post isn't from Iowahawk or Scrabbleface?

We'll just go to the radio and stay on the internet. Besides, Sheppard Smith is definitely a lib and Cavuto seems to lean that way as do a few of the new females.

IIRC ~70% of FNC employees' political contributions in 2004 were to DEMS.

Rupert must see how well taking a tack to the left is working out for PINCH.

[clarice]

larwyn, it's satire. The tip off? Trading O'Reilly for Olbermann.

[larwyn]

Clarice,
Knew it had to be - why I didn't even go and read it.

But my figures for donations are if not exact, they are to downside.

And not everyone that anchors/hosts can be said to be a conservative or Repub.

CNN was really excited about the mutiny of the "victims of Fox News" on Air Force One. That got them an additional 30 viewers to add to their Arbitron count for "The Day Room".

Nighty Nite.
Since JOM - no more beauty sleep!

[Kate]

I was leaning to Fitzgerald indicting Rove until yesterday. The articles by Leopold and Waas gave me pause. They both sounded so pathetic, Leopold essentially rehashing what happened last time to Libby, no conspiracy charge, just a rehash of what happened.

Waas seem to recognize the weakness of the case.

Except, I'm now convinced that Fitzgerald is worse than a partisan hack, he's an idiot partisan hack who took a triffling case a more responsible, less ambitious prosecutor would have closed in 2 months and it riding it to moonbat fame.

My latest guess: no charges, no clear for Rove, just more limbo. Fitz hopes to keep Rove dangling as his case against Libby weakens.

[Patton]

I thought Rove's information to Cooper was on double super secret background.

I believe that means it was not for publication or sourcing to the White House.
It was information to help Cooper track down the real story.

Yet, when Cooper published, he sourced it to 'government officials'.

[Kate]

Cooper looks nervous and sweaty. I'm sure his wife (Dem operative) is telling him : Don't worry, Bush will eventually pardon Rove."

Maybe a little guilt. I don't think he'll make a good witness for Fitzgerald. Plus, Cooper called Rove.

The real story is who picked Fitzgerald for this case and were they aware he was a partisan.

[Other Tom]

The reason I lean toward Fitz indicting Rove has nothing to do with partisan politics. I have seen ambitious prosecutors before, and they have a passion and a zealotry that transcends politics. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Fitz is pretty much apolitical. But for a guy like him it is unthinkable to get the starring role of a lifetime and produce nothing more than a rather silly indictment of a guy most people hadn't heard of before. For the Fitzgeralds of this world that's a fate worse than death. Devoting the kind of time, money and resources that this guy has devoted to possible "crimes" that are purely peripheral matters, and unrelated to the underlying reason for the investigation, is extremely ominous. Worse than that, it's insane. But it's happening.

[Kate]

Although the conventional wisom is that Fitzgerald is nonpolitical, I no longer believe that. I agree he is ambitious, that this is the opportunity of a lifetime. However, the fact that he is sympathetic to the Wilson as a noble whistleblower narrative, is not in keeping with a non-partisan prosecutor. Even many Democrats recognize that Wilson is a liar and cad, not Fitzgerald.

I'd have to track his record in Chicago. If he is investigating corruption in Chicago and is prosecuting more Republicans than Democrats, that would be a red flag.

The media told us that Wilson is a noble whistleblower, I don't believe that. They also tell us that FItzgerald is non-partisan, I don't believe that either anymore.

[Patton]

I had a thought about what SUPERVISION of Fitz may actually look like:

Supeevisor: Come on in Fitz, sit down, now before we get into the issues of the guy you charged with perjury and then dropped the charge, and the little issue of boxes of classified information you turned over to the defense in that terrorist case, I'd like to ask you about this Libby thing.

Fitz: Yes Sir, I take it you've been following my progress in the Washington Post?

Supervisor: Well, yeah sure. Now this Libby guy, seems your strongest count on this guy is dealing with the conversation with Tim Russert...now how sure are we that you've got this nailed down.

Fitz: Sure as can be sir.

Supervisor: Now Libby claims he heard about Plame from a big time reporter, Tim Russert, and Russert says it wasn't him. So Libby is in deep sh*t here - I would guess the only out he has would be to say it was some other big time reporter he heard it from and was simply mistaken about Russert. Is that possible, did anyone else know.

Fitz: Well, there is another big time reporter named Woodward.

Supervisor: But he wasn't in a position to know about Plame was he?

Fitz: Well, he did know about Plame.

Supeervisor: But he wasn't even in DC at this time was he??

Fitz: Ahh, yeah he works in DC, sir.

Supervisor: But he never met Libby did he??

Fitz: Well, just twice.

Supeervisor: What? Well this Woodward guy didn't talk to Libby about the WMD issue did he???

Fitz: Well, that was the basis for the discussion....its all very complicated sir.

Supervisor: Well you certainly subpeoned this reporters notes and made sure this whole Plame stuff wasn't connected?

Fitz: Well, sir, actually, Woodward did have the Plame information in his notes when he talked to Libby.

Supervisor: What the H*ll! Then you certainly got this reporter under oath assuring you he never mentioned this to Libby...otherwise, don't you have a little thing called reasonable doubt??

Fitz: Well sir, actually Mr. Woodward could not recall, he may or may not have mentioned it to Mr Libby.

Supervisor: Well, what did Libby say to explain this Woodward thing to the Grand Jury, you did give him an opportunity to explain the inconsistency before you indicted right??

Fitz: Cough, Cough, well, sir, here's the thing, we indicted before we dicovered Mr. Woodwards knowledge and contact with Mr. Libby.

Supervisor: You did what?? Hold on, Steve, could you get the Attorney General on the line...we may have a problem.

OK, well, I am all for shaving off a few points , cutting a few corners here and there, but as long as you are confident you got the right man. Libby is that guy right...the one that leaked to Novak?

Fitz: Actually, no sir...and may I suggest you read the Post more to get updated on the case. But Libby didn't have anything to do with the leak in the CIA referral, that was UGO.

Supervisor: UGO?...UGO?,,,what the heck is a UGO?

Fitz: Well sir, that is the name we came up with to protect his identity because he did nothing wrong and we didn't want to hurt his reputation.

Supervisor: So the guy you were after in the CRIMINAL referral did nothing wrong, and you indicted Mr. Libby based on he said she said evidence between him and a couple of journalists???

Fitz: See sir, now your catching on.

Supervisor: Good thing the press hates Bush, otherwise, the'd eat you for lunch.

[Kate]

Patton: exactly, Fitz is in need of some adult supervision.

As an aside: if Fitzgerald was a fair prosecutor and Wass is correct that the questioning of Rove was about discrepancies between Rove and Cooper's testimony, wouldn't the next logical step be to call in Cooper.

Fitzgerald, despite what the media is pushing and the Miller jailing, has been surprisingly deferential to the media, allowing them to testify to one part of the conversation, only to what Libby or Rove said.

It's one of the reasons I think Fitz is a hack.

Now if he calls Cooper in before any final decision on Rove, I'll be more inclined to believe Fitz is non-partisan. I don't think the default position should be that the reporter is telling the truth, they lie all the time.

[Patton]

Supervisor: Now back to this Woodward issue...now why haven't you indicted Libby for obstructing your investigation by not revealing Woodwards knowledge of Plame?

Fitz: Ohh, that wasn't Libby, that was UGO sir...

Supervisor: So UGO told Woodward? And UGO didn't tell you, he told Woodward...and you didn't indict him for obstruction?

Fitz: Ohh no sir, UGO is an upstanding guy. He didn't lie intentionally, he just forgot.

Supervisor: But I thought you said this information was too important to forget?

Fitz: Ohh, no sir, I said that about Libby, But UGO and Miller both forgot about conversations regarding Plame.

Supervisor: But you didn't indict them, yet you seem to excuse their errors and go after Libby for similar issues. Why is that?

Fitz: Sir, don't you understand, Libby works in the Office of the President, these other people don't. That's the conspiracy!

Supervisor: Conspiracy? What Conspiracy?

Fitz: Shee, keep it down.. the conspiracy in the White House to get Wilson sir, to out his wife...its all on the BLOGs sir.

Supervisor: BLOGs, what the h*ll is that?

Fitz: Sir, I thought you were following this case? Haven't you been on Whateveralready??

Supervisor: Fitz, I think you've got yourself out on a limb here and need a little more oversight..and

Fitz: Sir, are you part of it, the conspiracy, did Rove get to you? I'll have to run your background through Murray ......don't move sir. The duct tape is for your protection......

[Patton]

Coey: Fitz wake up...wake up Fitz.

fitz: Oh Comey, I had this terrible dream where Karl Rove was a wizard. And I was a scarecrow and you were the tin man and Joe Wilson was a lion and we had to get Valerie and Toto to safety.

Comey: Its OK...you're not really supervised!

Fitz: Ohh man, I must have dozed off at my desk....

[Sue]

I keep fluctuating between thinking Valerie Plame was indeed NOC at the time of her outing and no way was she NOC at the time of her outing. Evertime I consider she was NOC, I keep thinking that after 3 years, and a spread in Vanity Fair, wouldn't some foreign journalist have found some source, somewhere, to have had interactions with her? Wouldn't some foreign government have already complained to our government about her spying on them? And wouldn't that have leaked by now?

[Sue]

What if instead of being the agent (at the time of her outing) she was instead a case officer? Would she have been working out of Langley? I don't know how that works. Where does your case officer spend his/her time? In the field or at a desk? And would a case officer be NOC?

[windansea]

I curious if MOM was involved in the referal

is the IG office where it would come from?