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June 30, 2006

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Carol Herman

First sign of a slow news day, this old Kerry story, as dead as a doornail, pops up.

Of course, the "heroics" that donks encounter in service, always seem to be away from where the action is, anyway. Unless it's within elite institutions; involves gays and/or women. And, you see bodies tossed, overboard. Sans purple hearting. Though Connie Chung will sing "thanks for the memories" and stir her hold bones for ya. Those people never grow up.

So, let's assume Kerry lost his mind in Nam. And, never really recovered much of it. He's spent his life as a nonentity in the senate. And, for small change, he sells himself to a rich widow; whose first husband lost his head in a plane accident.

There's enough material here for a farce.

All war wounds should be as funny.

By the way, did you hear that Kerry ran for the presidency in 2004? On election night he became so dellusional he refused to call the sitting President, who won in a blow out, with his concession speech.

The donks have odd habits around "concessioneering their losses." And, frankly, I don't give a damn. Me. And, Clark Gable. The guy never made it back to Tara. Though, go ahead. Dream on. See, if I care?

Wickedpinto

My father was in "The NAM" and he was asked if he wanted to be written up for a purple heart. He got injured falling off of a track, when it came to a sudden halt, an he returned fire, at an enemy that even he thinks wasn't there, but it's what everyone else was doing, so he did it. Anyways, he didn't evac, he just went to med for a minor pain, and someone ASKED him if he wanted to be wrote him up for it.

My old man was Motor T, just doing a short convoy there and back from somewhere, when this happened, it there were a lot of people begging for medals. However, my fathers best friend was in the band, went to vietnam, and would volunteer (for some reason at that time) for various perimeter patrols. My old mans best friend actually got hit and blead, not significantly, and recieved a purple heart.

Now, heres the actual part of the story. My fathers best friend got hit, artillery, mine, fragments of a round whatever, and it was a minor flesh wound, and he went back into service, he recieved a purple heart, but he didn't want it, cuz the same explosion that injured him, took a limb from one of the guys he was patrolling with. My father, knowing the story of his friend, and that individual who actually got hit, said no way.

My father tells stories of how the 'birds would wear the puple hearts on their satines (spelling?) and everyone else, would cast them away when they were awarded, cuz they knew people like my fathers best friend, and the individual my fathers best friend was on patrol with.

If you walk away without stitches, you don't rate a purple heart, if you walk away to return to the fight without evac, you were not likely to accept the Purple Heart, if you could turn around, and lead some "spooks" the next day? and you tout your heart? You are full of shit, looking for a fasttrack to something.

Kerry was prolly awarded all of his hearts "properly" but he was a BITCH! for letting it happen, since the flogging guy doesn't have any scars. There are people with 1 purple heart laying in graves, kerry advertises his 3, though he was never taken off his feet.

That offends me. Though I never recieved one, I promise you, I would have subscribed to my father, and his best friends philosophy were I to get one for a turned ankle, while fleeing the enemy. I would have rebutted the recommendation (which you can do) and not recieved one, were I in kerry's situation, every time. At least, I hope I would do so.

Bob

Kerry's problem... well one of them anyway, is that he had to check off "got 3 purple hearts" on his check list to become President.

I would love to see how many Vets got 3 medals and for what injury, as well as in what time frame. Not only would you find Kerry to be one of a handful who accepted PH's for scratches but, you'd also see he did it in record time.

I agree he is a "bitch".

Did you see him on O'Reilly last night... same ol' same ol'... O'Reilly wimped out and tossed him softballs, but it still made him look like a wimp!

BumperStickerist

Slow down, Seabiscuit(s)

Let's keep in mind as we go through this exercise that John Kerry did see combat, was shot at by people intending to kill him dead, and that his ass was in Vietnam.

Bear in mind also that Kerry was a young man and was trying to get through the situation as best he could.

Having said that - I think the guy gamed the system to get the 3 purple hearts so he could get his ass out of combat and Vietnam.

There's nothing wrong about understanding the rules of the situation you're in and using those rule to your maximum benefit.

As a vet, (USAF) I find Kerry's conduct as an a combat officer inexplicable in military terms. He walked away from his men the instant he was able to because he could. Were Kerry enlisted, I'd feel differently (I think).

But for all the talk and criticism about Kerry's ability to understand and work within the military bureaucracy (for example, the transmission from the hospital ship), his statements about Cambodia (my biggest problem with that is 'Why Kerry?' given that he was new in country, a junior officer, and other, more experienced officers were available - the Left's reply of "Well, he's John Kerry!" is daft), and his subsequent quest for notoriety through the Winter Soldier/ Post-Service stuff doesn't take away from the fact that, for a couple of months, John Kerry was in a place where he could go out on a mission and get himself dead.

Let's not belittle that part.

.

Mainly because there's so much else to belittle - like, remember the way he ate that cheesesteak? Atrios died a little bit inside when he saw that, because - despite Duncan's posting about how it didn't matter, deep down, Duncan knows - Kerry fucked that up, big time.

In fact, that might be the value of bloggers to a campaign - do some pre-event stuff that keeps the candidate looking good. An email from Atrios or the Rittenhouse Review guy to the Kerry campaign reading "Guys, when you're here he'll eat a couple of bites of a cheesesteak covered with Cheez-Whiz. Big John can choose to have it with or without fried onions. And eat it like you've got a spare tie in the glovebox."

Patton

In all fairness to Kerry...we should withhold judgement until we see his
re-enactment video.

He He He

Bob

"Post-Service stuff doesn't take away from the fact that, for a couple of months, John Kerry was in a place where he could go out on a mission and get himself dead."

Yeah and you can get yourself dead by eating too many Philly Cheese Steaks as well.

From what I've read, Kerry had no plans of going into battle. What he signed up for had nothing to do with actual combat... it was only after he got to Vietnam did the army change the roll of the Swiftboat operations.

He panicked and ran, like the coward he was. He only stayed long enough to get his ticket out... and some good home movies for the moonbats back home.

Semanticleo

" He only stayed long enough to get his ticket out.."

That means he had a ticket IN, and chose not to remain 'in the rear with the gear'. I guess the word 'coward' comes dressed in degrees and there are greater 'cowards' who made the other choice.

davod

The more I read about Kerry's story the more I think it deserves the real Hollywood treatment.

A Leslie Neilson movie would be appropriate.

MarkD

This, quite frankly, is much ado about nothing. Can anyone possibly believe that Kerry will be nominated, much less elected? They know he'll be hammered for his failure to release his military records - records which will show that Jimmy Carter had his less than honorable discharge changed to honorable. Spin won't change this fact.

What he did during Vietnam doesn't matter. Going to Paris and attempting to negotiate with the enemy as a private citizen/reserve officer during time of war tells everything anyone needs to know about Mr Kerry.

This play is over. Move on, indeed.

Bob

cleo only morons believe that Dan RaTHer fake but accurate nonsense.

It's too early in the morning for you to be shadow boxing anyway. Nobody here is ever impressed with your arguments, since they are never supported by any real facts, or backed up with any documents.

You can now report back to your fellow moonbats, you've reported for duty over here at JOM. Your almost as effective as your boy Kerry!

PeterUK

This cries out for a "National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation in Cambodia" treatment.

Jane

>Can anyone possibly believe that Kerry will be nominated, much less elected?

I dunno, the dems seem to be perpetually stuck on stupid. Who else have they got, Feingold?

Jeez I just thought of the full meaning of John Kerry being the best the dems have to offer. Someone start a third party, please. Opposition government is important.

lurker

"That means he had a ticket IN, and chose not to remain 'in the rear with the gear'. I guess the word 'coward' comes dressed in degrees and there are greater 'cowards' who made the other choice."

The specific "greater coward" did not make a choice. The choice was made for this particular greater coward. This particular greater coward was all set to be deployed when the Vietnam War was winding down and did not need as many pilots. That particular program cancelled the deployment plans. So he never was a coward to begin with.

Oh, btw, this particular greater coward released his SF0180 for full public release.

Semanticleo

Bob;

Do you need some documentation showing your hero was stateside during ongoing combat in SE Asia? Don't blame me if your puke-filled rants lead to your own pathetic demise.

Pete

And while we are asking Kerry for all the records, do we even have all the records and information related to the ChickenHawk-in-Chief?

lurker

All's we need is Bush's SF-180 that proved him stateside. Bush released it for full public release. The choice was made for him to NOT go to Vietname War. Why? Because the Vietnam War was winding down and they did not need him.

He was all set to be deployed when the deployment plans were cancelled. Bush had no problems going to war.

Now where is Kerry's SF-180 for full public release?

Semanticleo

The choice was made for this particular greater coward.

'Scuze me? Millions of draft age men sought to avoid combat duty by enlisting in the Reserves. They were full up. How did our boy manage that feat? Someone decided FOR him?

Pete

Bush had no problems?

Bush could have gone to the war if he really felt that the war was worth fighting for. He now claims that the Vietnam war was worth fighting for, yet he chose a way to avoid fighting in Vietnam.

lurker

Yes, Bush released his SF-180 for full public release. The list of reasons continues to grow that makes him a very brave, strong, courageous commander-in-chief and one of the best presidents for this country.

Read how Lincoln got his country involved in the Civil War and how people detested him. Today he is considered as one of the best US presidents.

Read about the American Revolution War and how people detested George Washington. Today he is considered as one of the best US presidents. Read the book, "1776".

So now where is Kerry's SF-180 for full public release?

lurker

Pete, pete, pete, Bush felt that the war was worth fighting for. He was all set to be deployed. But the choice was made for him. He didn't have to go. The war was winding down.

Kerry didn't think the war was worth fighting for, btw.

Pete

lurker - I'm not buying the bridge that you are selling me. If Bush thought that the war was worth fighting for, he could have gone to Vietnam. He did not. Plain and simple.

Semanticleo

the choice was made for him.

You mean the choice to enlist in the reserves?

Gary Maxwell

How long until we get to enjoy the spectacle of Democrat Senators filibuster a bill to specifically authorize military tribunals for terrorists captured during hostilities? Will they do so right before an election? I certainly hope so, it will be cheese on top of the steak. Maybe Kerry could lead this charge? I would think yameering on about the rights of terrorists would be a populist sell, No?

boris

The guard is not the reserves.

W flew missions patrolling US skies defending from USSR bombers.

The plane was an intercepter. Designed to rapidly make contact and destroy. Under most circumstances it would be a one way flight.

Specter

Pete'n'Tic:

This is a battle you will not win. Bush was in the service and guess what? Fighter pilots were in short supply in the guard. So your snarkiness about him getting in is misplaced. But that doesn't matter to you guys does it? No, instead you seem to encourage people to go out and create false documents to slime someone's reputation.

Now - Kerry on the other hand has been fried on this issue. The only way not for him to "prove" his feats is to release his records. If everything is on the up-and-up as he claims, why does he have a problem with this? It does not make sense. Maybe you could explain to all of us why he should not release his records. Rather than mindlessly attact, as you are both so apt to do, tell us why Kerry won't release his records.

Specter

As a follow up Tic - the thread is about Kerry not Bush. Why did you and Pete change the subject? Shall I quote the rule?

boris

If ignorance is bliss semanticlown is on cloud 9 in la la land allah time.

Semanticleo

Yeah, ok. National Guard. The principle is the same. End runs are his forte.

Spec; You apply the rules arbitrarily, when it suits you. Who else does that sound like?

Semanticleo

And they are no MY rules, their yours. I did not hamstring myself with faux integrity designed to make one sound magnanimous.

Go fish.

Bob

lurker, don't play their game. They'll never answer anything directly... they only change the subject. Notice how cleo responds always by asking a question. It cracks me up how they can be so smug with such non answers. Their facts and answers are as illusive as JF'n Kerry's SF-180 records.

Since they can't change Kerry's spineless and treasonous background, their only hope is to try and slime Bush.

Classic moonbattery... power to truth all that horse shit nonsense.

Semanticleo

truth to power.......Bob

Tom Maguire

As to Kerry's physical courage, I am with the Bumperstickerist - look, he went, he got shot at, he could have been killed. "Slow down, Seabiscuit", indeed.

Kerry does seem to be a bit lighter in the moral courage department, post-Vietnam - folks have a hard time finding examles of same after twenty years in the Senate. Whatever.

As to Bush - first, he hardly ran on his war record or posed as thogh it was that which defied him.

Secondly, Pete, please:

...do we even have all the records and information related to the ChickenHawk-in-Chief?

IIRC (and I bet I do) Bush never signed an SF-180. Part of the glory of being Commander-in-Chief is that he can simply order his records released, which he did.

Compliance with that order was a bit trickier (TANG records were separate, and evidently stored in a few places), so records trickled out, but the consensus seems to be that the government made a good-faith effort to release everything they could find. I phrase that carefully because I assume that there is a conspiracist faction that insists Rove shredded everything important.

From the Clown, also not versed in this:

Millions of draft age men sought to avoid combat duty by enlisting in the Reserves. They were full up.

The Rep talking point is that there were Reserve slots open for those who wanted to sign up for a full time, two-year commitment to flight school; regular week-end only, two weeks a year slots were probably full.

Anyway, since there is at least chit-chat that Kerry may run again, while Bush is surely not a candidate in 2008, maybe we can look forward? Maybe?

I actually have a modest hope that this Kerry story will crack open. Obviously in 2004 every proper Dem-bot was obliged to chant that the Swiftees were liars, facts notwithstanding.

But come 2007, there may be Dems that might beneift from blowing up a Kerry candidacy. Or some lefty rag might want to boost their guy by whacking Kerry.

The truth is out there, and it may yet come home to roost.

Finally, Kerry "enlisted" (afer his deferments ran out) in 1966, when the anti-war movement was tiny, and the futility of the war, and obvious Admin disinterest in victory was not obvious.

By 1968 (Bush's turn), popular sentiment had changed quite a bit. I have not seen (but would like to) a breakdown of how many Yalies went to Vietnam from class of '66 versus Class of '68 - I bet the difference is striking.

For my readers from the left - imagine Army recruiting in 2003 versus now, when the quagmire and lies of Iraq have been exposed to all.

(And yes, that is strictly an exercise for the imagination - the Army is meeting recruiting goals, although I haven't dissected that spin to see if the goals have been reduced.)

boris

tsk tsk

boris

End runs are his forte

Ignorance is yours.

W's squadron lost crewmates performing missions. The reserves don't "perform" missions.

boris

TANG is more like the Coast Guard than reserves. clown

Bob

works every time... cleo!

richard mcenroe

You know what must keep Kerry awake nights, if he has any kind of self-awareness whatsoever? (Assumes facts very much not in evidence, granted).

If he'd just kept his mouth shut, he'd probably be President today.

If he'd just stuck with the bare-bones fact of his military service, "I was in the Navy during the Vietnam War," he'd probably be home free.

Sure he had a 'soft bunk;' but so did the vast majority of veterans, and even the ones who were up the sharp end would be likely to accept the 'at least he showed up' argument. Was he an asshole of an officer? Well, gee, get in the short line. Was he not exactly a tiger under fire? Read S.L.A. Marshall, and get in that other short line.

He might even have been able to survive his postwar VVAW activities. What major figure of the Democratic party in the last thirty years didn't walk that road?

But he didn't. He couldn't. He had to try to pass off other officers' combat records as his own; he had to make up combat experiences out of whole cloth; he even had to cobble up fairy tales and war stories of flying dogs and magic hats out of damned movies. It's no coincidence Cambodia wasn't seared, seared into his memory until after Apocalypse Now was released.

There is something deeply wrong with John F. Kerry and he demonstrated that to millions of Americans. I think he suspects it, too, from that weird, hunched-over salute he tried to give at the DNC, and the bizarre hiccup in his force as you could see him force himself to drag Cheney's gay daughter into the debate. He was screwing up, he knew it, and he couldn't help himself.

John O'Neil and the Swifties are forever on the side of the angels for bring that out into the open before Kerry ever set foot in the White House.

Bruce Hayden

Both Kerry and Gore are pretty active right now. I saw Gore on O'Reily, I think, last night, and Kerry somewhere else. Neither one though is likely to get the nomination, and esp. not Kerry. He probably figures that he came fairly close last time, despite the Swift Boat ads, and w/o an incumbant to run against, he has a decent chance at winning this time around.

But he is likely to find himself on the wrong side of the Iraq war - it is likely that we will have pulled significant numbers of troops out of there before the 2008 election - without cutting-and-running. So, his flip-flops here won't have helped him, but rather ultimately hurt him (again). Besides, this time around, the Swift Boat guys will have the money to run their ads, a lot, on national TV, from day 1.

The reality is that he was a bad candidate. And the Democrats know that, which is why they aren't about to give him another chance. Republicans might give someone a chance because it is their turn, or they deserve it. But not the Democrats - esp. after being out of power.

Besides, if they are going to give anyone a second chance, it would be Gore, not Kerry. Gore was probably the better candidate, won the popular vote, and hasn't flip-flopped on the Iraq War.

richard mcenroe

The reserves don't perform missions? Can you POSSIBLY be that stoopid? I mean, really, are you that damned ignorant.

Get off this board and go someplace veterans don't post, fool.

Semanticleo

Maguire;

Your defense of Bush is vague and diffuse, but one statement is clear;

"first, he hardly ran on his war record "

Implication; Not much to be proud of or brag about, otherwise he would have.

Further implication; Since Kerry ran on War record, he was fair game. Fair enough.

But how can Bushophiles attack Kerry on record and not anticipate the same for their own?

Further; "The Rep talking point is that there were Reserve slots open for those who wanted to sign up for a full time, two-year commitment to flight school; regular week-end only, two weeks a year slots were probably full."

I assume 'rep talking point' leaves you cold. Assuming there was no undue influence in getting Bush in, and assuming it was his intention to serve in VN, why choose this unlikely venue? As an Ivy League graduate, he could have easily earned a commission in the Air Force or Marines and trained as a pilot there. And if combat was his goal, short of qualifying as pilot trainee, why not enlist as a grunt?

boris

I was in the reserves after active duty. Didn't perform any missions. What you talkin 'bout ?

boris

But how can Bushophiles attack Kerry on record and not anticipate the same for their own?

And who else is going to challange Kerry's BS?

So attack the swifties then. Bush neither made his record an issue nor challanged Kerry's. The idea that if anybody, no matter who, says something you don't like that makes Bush fair game ... well that's typical isn't it.

Pete

Media obsesses over CBS documents, ignores uncontested evidence that Bush didn't meet his Guard obligations.

The September 14 edition of CNN's Judy Woodruff's Inside Politics began with a lengthy segment that was ostensibly about the controversy surrounding President George W. Bush's National Guard service. But the segment made only passing mention of the allegations against Bush -- and it made no mention at all of the substantial and uncontested evidence that Bush didn't show up for duty when he was supposed to, that he skipped a required physical for as-yet-unexplained reasons, that he was grounded from flying, and that he mysteriously received an honorable discharge anyway.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200409150002

Lurker

"lurker - I'm not buying the bridge that you are selling me. If Bush thought that the war was worth fighting for, he could have gone to Vietnam. He did not. Plain and simple."

Don't worry. There is no bridge to sell. As TM pointed out, Kerry and Bush's time were different.

TM's right that Bush did not run on his record. Bush did not need to either.

It was Kerry's part to run his campaign based on his military records, among other things. Which is why TM keeps opening up new threads with hopes that one day we would all see his SF-180, full public release and see if he's telling us the truth.

TM's right that since Bush won't be running for office but Kerry might and there are people that will try and prove Kerry's stories (without full public release of SF-180) to be true so that Kerry can run for '08.

Bob, all this game performed by Pete, Jerry, AL, Cleo does is to bring out more of their moonbattery and since they are incapable of seeing the facts, you're right, all they have left is their hope that Bush will come down. So far, their hope continues to dimmer.

boris

Bush didn't meet his Guard obligations

Bush got out a few months early. So did I. Unless hw was going to re-up he didn't have enough service left to retrain on the new fighter jets.

Military service isn't like a prison sentence. If the service doesn't need you anymore it's a waste of taxpayer money to keep you around.

Pete

TM - "As to Bush - first, he hardly ran on his war record or posed as though it was that which defined him."

Yes it is hard to run on a record that you do not have.

However given that Bush started an unnecessary war and was running on the banner of a War President (which he changed to a "Peace President" once he realized that the War President label was not working), it is very relevant to look at why he himself ducked Vietnam and did not fulfil all of his obligations to the Guard.

boris

Military service isn't like a prison sentence. If the service doesn't need you anymore it's a waste of taxpayer money to keep you around.

Lurker

"Your defense of Bush is vague and diffuse, but one statement is clear;

"first, he hardly ran on his war record "

Implication; Not much to be proud of or brag about, otherwise he would have."

Wrong implication. There was no need for Bush to campaign on his records, and his records just happened to be phenomenal considering what he went through and the choices made for him. Bragging is not normal for Bush anyway.

Patton

Let's look at their opposition:

Kerry had over 100 fellow Vietnam Veteran servicemen band together to tell the nation the man wasn't fit to be Commander in Chief.

Bush had Dan Rather, Mary Mapes and Bill Burkett forge documents to claim Bush hadn't performed his duties.

Lurker

Sorry, Pete, Jveritas and Roy Robison continue to prove that the war WAS necessary.

Gary Maxwell

Whoboy it must be looney Friday. Some one check astrological chart ( jerome will have it handy). Now we are hearing about that Conservative biased media. Judy Woodruff, didn't virtually cry on the set when Bush was announced the winner? Come on certainly you moonbats can do better than that.

Patton

http://www.swiftvets.com/videos/theyserved.wmv

Nuff said

Lurker

Sorry, Pete, all of what Judy Woofruff said have been disproved. Bush did NOT use his military records as part of his campaigns and he doesn't NEED to brag about his impeccable military records, given the fact that there's enough proof that there is nothing wrong with his military records.

But Kerry opened up a huge can of worms. All of the stories about his military records have been contradictory.

Semanticleo

lurker;

You forgot this portion;

I assume 'rep talking point' leaves you cold. Assuming there was no undue influence in getting Bush in, and assuming it was his intention to serve in VN, why choose this unlikely venue? As an Ivy League graduate, he could have easily earned a commission in the Air Force or Marines and trained as a pilot there. And if combat was his goal, short of qualifying as pilot trainee, why not enlist as a grunt?

Carol Herman

Whatever "scratch" Kerry earned his purple hearts for; he should have hung one of them on his nose, indicating his brain was dead.

And, no matter what else is said about injuries, to lose one's mind in battlefield panic, and never to regain it again, is certainly worthy of a few pins. No complaints from me.

Plus, the residual damage is STILL obvious, all these years later. Kerry is clearly dellusional. (So is Murtha.)

I guess mental illness is one of those less than charming afflictions; so we say "Kerry didn't even suffer a scratch." Alas, he became psychotic. Which is worse than the stuff doctors can fix. Or replace with a prosthesis.

That it took only four months to twist Kerry isn't something to take lightly. Triggering events don't necessarily takes years to kick in.

Kerry can't win anything. If he's sitting on the bench waiting to be called up, to salute again, on the donk's nominating stage, it means the party's not able to field any winnahs. Dukakis and Wesley Clark would be better choices. And, who knows? If Kerry doesn't get it, algore might. Or Hillary. And, there's nothing that will motivate the GOP to fight in a first class way, than seeing Hillary manuevering her fat hips into the donk's nomination chair.

Can't make me mad. So many donks suffer dellusions, now, purple hearts should come with their birth certificates.

Pete

The article I referenced is not about what Judy Woodruff said - it is about what she should have said.

(So much for the myth of the "liberal media").

Gary Maxwell

OT

Moonbats are now in full froth at other places. The Bin Laden tape release is just too coincidental for them. Get this, ita a conspiracy! Wow who would of thought that would come from a progressive's mouth? I guess the fact that it will be talked about on the news shows during the July 4th holiday weekend is enough evidence. Mind boggles yet again.

Blue Neponset

When you cheapen the blood Kerry spilt to earn his Purple Heart you cheapen the blood spilt by everyone who earned the medal.

Patrick R. Sullivan

'...assuming it was his intention to serve in VN, why choose this unlikely venue? As an Ivy League graduate, he could have easily earned a commission in the Air Force or Marines and trained as a pilot there.'

You are an ignoramus. If he'd gotten into a pilot program with the USAF he'd have been assigned a plane determined by his rank in his flight school class. Meaning he could have been ferrying cargo.

Instead, in 1968, at the very peak of the fighting, Bush signed with the Texas ANG specifically to fly the F-102 interceptor. Which was, at the very time he put his signature on the enlistment papers, being flown in Vietnam by members of the very unit Bush was joining.

Further, when Bush was combat ready, in 1970, he volunteered to go to Vietnam. He was not accepted because others with more hours in the cockpit also had volunteered and they were accepted over him. And, Nixon was Vietnamizing the war, withdrawing pilots, not sending them.

It's history. And, so are you.

Great Banana

Cleo,

Always willing to attempt actual discourse with the left, I will say to you - for purpose of this argument - that President Bush did in fact not finish his Guard service, like you allege, and that he received influential help to get in the Guard to avoid service in Vietnam, as you allege.

With that said, we should acknowledge that President Bush has signed his SF 180 making his records public to both supporters and critics.

With those concessions in mind:

- How does this change or reply to the arguments being made against John Kerry's claims of "heroism"?

- How does it change or reply to whether or not John Kerry should sign the SF 180 to release his records to all the public, critics and supporters alike?

- How does it relate to charges made against Kerry by other swift boat veterans that he is unfit to be commander-in-chief? How does it change or reply to the argument about John Kerry's fitness to be commander-in-chief?

- Particularly going forward, as Kerry will likely run for president again, and Bush cannot?

GB

richard mcenroe

Great Banana — Both your concessions are mistaken, and there is NO reason to assume honest discourse with the left anymore.

Bob

Yeah, but Patton, they had fake but accurate documents.... and in a moonbats mind, that's as good as it needs to be!

It blows me away just how many liberals lack any ability for analytical thinking.... it's a wonder they function at their jobs. Oh right they mostly work for the government and in academia, were that's not necessary!

Sue

You might also add that it was not Bush who questioned Kerry's claims but others who served in the same location as Kerry. Something never quite explained away while explaining away...

richard mcenroe

boris — Since Vietnam, where both Guard and Reserve units were deployed, reserve and/or Guard units have served with every major US military operation. Every one.

Indeed, there have been signficant Guard and Reserve deployments even without the participation of the regulars, as when Reagan sent engineering, medical and civil affairs units to Central America in the 80's.

In addition, there are fulltime military missions, even in peacetime, that are fulfilled exclusively by Reserve units?

When were you in the Reserves? What service? What MOS? Because, frankly, you're either lying about your service or demonstrating abysmal ignorance here, or both.

Tom Maguire

I assume 'rep talking point' leaves you cold.

LOL - are you kidding? I *write * some of these talking points!

(Hmm, folks may think I'm kidding, which I mostly am, but an old Kerry quote I dug up and posted on this blog went from here to Kaus and Sullivan, to Brooks and Krauthammer and Limbaugh, and then the President's speech-writers had the quote flow melifluosly from Bush's lips.

Quite a thrill, especially if I could spell "melifluously".

It was about Tora-Bora, and Brooks later apologized for taking it out of context. Too late, Bush had won! And I don't think I had taken it out of context, but it was possible to do so.)

Actually, I put that qualifier about "Rep talking point' in because I have not done any research to see if it has been credibly rebutted. I know I am supposed to say it, I just haven't checked it for accuracy.

Sue

I have never cared what Kerry did or did not do in Vietnam. I have never cared that he might have medals he didn't earn (and pretended to throw away, which to me cheapens the medals more than questioning Kerry's spotty memory does). I have never cared that he was an anti-war activist. I cared deeply that he spent 4 months in Vietnam and 20 years in the senate and had to run on the 4 months he spent in Vietnam. I didn't need anything else to make my decision with regards to his competency as CiC.

Sue

I have never cared what Kerry did or did not do in Vietnam. I have never cared that he might have medals he didn't earn (and pretended to throw away, which to me cheapens the medals more than questioning Kerry's spotty memory does). I have never cared that he was an anti-war activist. I cared deeply that he spent 4 months in Vietnam and 20 years in the senate and had to run on the 4 months he spent in Vietnam. I didn't need anything else to make my decision with regards to his competency as CiC.

Sue

Okay, I thought it was worth repeating...either that or typepad just hiccupped and I got caught up in it...

boris

reserve and/or Guard units have served

Well technically reserve units that are called up are no longer in "reserve".

My point was that TANG and Coast Guard are on active duty, not just in reserve. Please forgive trying to make a simple point.

ed

Hmmmm.

sigh.

Darn it! Less *Kerry*, more *happy*!!

Will someone get Kerry to finally put up or shut the hell up? I don't want to be arguing this nonsensical crap when I'm 80 years old and trying to find my teeth.

Great Banana

Richard Mcenroe,

Great Banana — Both your concessions are mistaken, and there is NO reason to assume honest discourse with the left anymore.

I don't actually believe my concessions are true, I simply am willing to make the concessions for purposes of this argument, b/c I think they are irrelevant to the argument - which is the point I was trying to make. The point is to make the concession, and then observe whether the lefties are willing to then discuss the actual points in contention.

GB

Barney Frank

With the proviso that I couldn't care less what that horse-faced has-been is or was up to, a couple of observations:

Kerry did not sign up intending to see combat. That he chose not to desert when the Swift boat mission was changed is to his slight credit. That he saw combat and took enemy fire is to his great credit. That he seems to have run out on his 'band of brothers' as quickly as he could and by rather questionable means is to his slight shame. That he then dishonored his and his comrades heroism with despicable and false claims of rampant war crimes is to his great shame.

That George Bush served honorably in TANG is to his credit. However if he really wanted to go to war, he could have. When people claim otherwise on his behalf it seems a little silly.

And finally lets put this to bed once and for all. The problem with the 'fake but accurate' blather is it WAS fake but it WASN'T accurate. Had it been accurate, even if the partcular memos were forgeries, Bush would have had a problem. Fake but accurate is a perfectly sensible position if the fakes are indeed accurate. In Bush's case they weren't. It is perfectly possible for false evidence to be manufactured which accurately represent a real occurence. A huckster should be condemned but that isn't dispositive of anything, other than he is a huckster.

Semanticleo

GB;

It matters little to me if Kerry runs. He will not get the nomination, nor should he.
Yes he should release the records, if he has any regard for his veracity.

Tom Maguire

I don't want to be arguing this nonsensical crap when I'm 80 years old and trying to find my teeth.

I am gloomily resigned to finding my teeth firmly embedded in Kerry's buttocks. As that good looking young chap said in Titanic, "Never, ever, ever let go - well, unless you have to". Or something.

Barney Frank

Leo,

I thought you should know, some imposter is using your name, putting up reasonable posts without invective.

BumperStickerist

Semanticleo is missing the point entirely.

Kerry, by virtue of his actions which include - among other things, naming his PAC 'Citizen-Soldier', doing that 'Band of Brothers' thing, opening with the 'Reporting for Duty' stuff - brought the issue to the forefront of his campaign.

The fact that Kerry couldn't manage a campaign response leaves me convinced that Kerry and Co. would be lousy at executive branch governance - much more worser (apologies to Keith Olbermann) than Chimpy McBushitler and his Ruthless Band of Rethuglicans.

What Dems and Progs fail to notice is that the analog to Kerry's "Swiftboating" is the Democratic response to Bush's claims about his performance as a businessman, or Bush's performance as Governor.

Somebody familiar with Texas politics who isn't Molly Ivins would have to look at whether Bush's former business partners, people who entered into deals with Bush, and such didn't come out against Bush in support of the Democratic candidate.

Which is just fine - that's actual political hardball.

The problem is that the Dems, and Semanticleo in particular, are just whiney, and not in the good "Let Us Learn and Go On To Victory" way.

Kerry misread the Swift Boats and the response in such a spectacular fashion that the more hard left, The BUSHAWOL types, are left to come up with Rovian connections and Nixon-era plots.

Which, you know, reaffirms that voting for Bush was a good idea. Because if it comes down to it, I'm siding with the team that is able to plan out it's evil longterm goals for world domination twenty-to-thirty years down the pike and accomplish its mission.
_________________________________________

The Democratic Party: if They Can't Defeat Rovian Evil,
What Chance Do They Have Against Actual Evil.
____________________________________

MTT

FWIW,

I believe John Forbes Kerry enlisted in the Unites States Naval Reserves, not the United States Navy.

Am I wrong?

You tell me.

Just sayin'.

Specter

Tic - They are rules governing the disinformationalist and you, certainly and without question, are one. Whether or not you claim them to be your rules they fit you to a tee. Look at it this way - this thread was about why Kerry hasn't made his records public. You and Pete tried to change the subject to Bush and his record. Typical left ploy - can't answer with facts or questions being asked - change the subject.

I called you on the fact that you tried to change the subject and asked a direct question. That question was simple - If Kerry has nothing to hide, why won't he release his recrods? Simple - fits the thread and should be something that a supporter of Kerry could answer. Did you answer it? No - instead you tried to deflect by trying to get people to believe that I only use the rules when it suits me (Want me to quote that rule # to you? It is another one of the traits of a disinformationalist), and then went right back to making the thread about Bush. YOU STILL NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION. I wonder why that is?

Semanticleo

"I assume rep talking point leaves you cold"

Wrong assumption.

More correct assumption; Maguire is content to give credence to unsubstantiated, nonverified assumptions, and will continue to leave doubt in play, as he prefers to forestall the research.

BumperStickerist

as he {Tom} prefers to forestall the research.

I find Tom's ongoing call for Kerry to abide by his commitment to sign the SF180 which opens the records for research particularly inimical to Truth and forestalling in nature.

no wait.

It's Kerry who's forestalling.

Never mind.

Specter

FWIW - tho only thing Kerry offered the public beyond his war record was "vote for me because Bush did everything wrong and I will do better." That was it. No plans - no stances - nothing. Sounds a lot like Ned Lamont.

Specter

More correct assumption; Maguire is content to give credence to unsubstantiated, nonverified assumptions, and will continue to leave doubt in play, as he prefers to forestall the research.

Tried to deflect the question again I see. God forbid that you actually discuss TM's call for Kerry to release his records. Get a grip!

Semanticleo

Spec;

Forgot rule #9?

And, add a rule...#26 Actually read germane comments BEFORE you embarass yourself.

Great Banana

Cleo,

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure why we are arguing then - we both agree that all of this could be put to rest by Kerry putting his records out publicly. If we on the right have been wrong, it will be shown (and I'll even agree that if we are proven wrong by those records, we should apologize profusely to the man).

And, all of it is irrelevant if he does not run for prez again.

But, if he does run, I would not be surprised to see his fellow democrats make these kinds of arguments against him in the primary unless/until he releases his records. Let's not forget that the "Willy Horton" attack against Dukakis was originally made by Al Gore in the primary.

GB

Carol Herman

Okay, one of Kerry's purple-hearted wounds was received when he was shot in the ass.

Which just doubles my point that while he was in Nam his brains fell out. Since his return, he's been psychotic. ALL of his judgements, as an adult, fit into a category of mental illness; including exposing his two daughters to a hateful, spiteful, step-money. (There are some things that it's just wrong to do for money.)

And, since he became mentally ill in Nam, and is DELLUSIONAL, as anyone who looked saw; when he LOST in 2004. But chose sleep over making a concession call to our wonderful President. President Bush had a BLOW OUT WIN. So, the left, all of them, can share in Kerry's medals. They're well earned now.

When your brains are shot out from under you, there's nothing that works to fix this. No pins. No needles. No prosthetics.

I'll give Kerry the benefit, here. He got war wounds! His brains fell out.

PeterUK

Fughter pilots were not needed in the Vietnam war,the F-102A was particularly unsuited to that theatre of operations,certainly of little use for ground attack.The plane was designed to engage the Russian nuclear bombers which probed Western airspace,it was never known when or if theses aircraft would carry on through to their objectives.
The only way a pilot could get to fly another type of aircraft was to re-train,the Airforce was not short of pliots and was reducing the numbers of personel.

Specter

Still didn't answer the question and went for the personal attack, right?

Bob

Great Banana... you forget. When the left goes after one another it's only considered as a "healthy exchange of ideas".

SPQR

Bumperstickerist gets it right. Kerry's service in Vietnam - while hardly distinguished compared to the service of people like Bob Kerrey - did occur. It is Kerry's subsequent actions and attempts to use his Vietnam service to immunize himself from his later disgraceful conduct that deserves ridicule.

I see the 'leo is misrepresenting the facts yet again in a pathetic attempt to slander the President. Mary Mapes herself found a witness to George Bush volunteering for deployment to Vietnam with elements of his air national guard unit. Service as an air national guard pilot was challenging and as honorable as Kerry's.

PeterUK

What kind of simpering little snot looks to John "Girly Run" Kerry for leadership?

Semanticleo

"Service as an air national guard pilot was challenging and as honorable as Kerry"

So, Kerry is honorable. I can live with that.

Barney Frank

Never mind Leo.
I see the meds have worn off.

Semanticleo

spec;

still commenting on matters you havent
read?

Have some cookies and milk.

PeterUK

"I did not hamstring myself with faux integrity designed to make one sound magnanimous."

Is English Segmentedlearning's first language,it doesn't translate well from Farsi.

Specter

I've read all your posts TIC. You fit the disinformationalist definition quite nicely. It was nice of you to agree that Kerry should release his records - first time I've seen that. But that doesn't answer the question of why he has not.

Semanticleo

Spec; wondered when you would actually read what I said. Too bad you used the clock up digging out the goalpost. You want to know why? Who knows? I feel confident he has something to hide. What does that leave you with now? A critique on my punctuation, or maybe I didnt castigate him harshly enough for your pedestrian taste? Whatever. Go have some cookies and milk.

Carol Herman

Like Clarice, I, too, find Peter in the UK, EXCELLENT! His posts make me laugh. And, it does show up the idiots for the fools they are.

It's possible someone pays the troll to post here, because 'leo just doesn't stop. What a crazy way to make bupkis.

Lurker

Thanks, Patrick, boris, PUK for correcting Cleown. Too bad it won't make much of a dent.

PeterUK

Thank you Carol,
I find your posts entertaining,you should write a novel,perhaps about high finance and intrigue,the Mastermind Soros and his midget Semanticleo,"The Plane,the plane,Meeester Soros,the plane!"

PeterUK

Lurker,It is impossible to insult Dementedleo,it is all true.

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Wilson/Plame