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June 25, 2006

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Dwilkers

Not sure what to say. As Cecil documented in the other thread Gilliard has all but admitted the words are his.

/shrug

Rick Ballard

Unless Zengerle has made a previous statement equivalent to the one made by Marc Ash concerning "burning" sources then I don't see what else is needed. Greenwald may howl like a banshee about a big deal being made of Ash not keeping his promise, but it was Ash's promise that made it a big deal, not the fact that he didn't burn Joe Wilson or Scary Larry.

MayBee

Zengerle did a good thing, he admitted that part of the story is wrong. No reporter is perfect, an honest and prominent correction is all that can be asked.
Removing those two lines doesn't change the story much. Besides, the fun for me has been finding out about the Townhouse list and watching the diarists at Kos convince themselves it isn't about Kos, and that they are so diverse. If they are so diverse, what is their movement about? If it isn't about him, why is he the one with the media strategist?

richard mcenroe

The official new mantra on the left is no longer "16 Words."

It is "22 Words."

Who sez lefties can't move on?

verner

Sounds like a set up, and an attempt by KOS to find the disloyal leaker in Townhouse. Whoa, deep. Wonder if Larry Johnson and his covert former spook friends helped KOS set up the honey trap?

This is really getting funny.

Dwilkers

You know, even paranoid people have enemies.

To me it is a bit strange that this whole thing piles up on poor old Kossie at once. I mean we have the NYTimes, Newsweek, TNR, pretty much everybody. He was a media darling only a week ago.

lurker

Keeping KOS alive with Mac Ranger's post.

Mac sez that this KOSgate isn't going to bode well for the dems but in the long run, it ain't gonna bode well for KOS and Markitas.

verner

Being that he is half Greek, the concept of hubris should not have been alien to him.

It will get you every time.

DelDav

And now for another aspect of Kosola-gate, here's a post from Buckeye State Blog that's pretty damning.

http://www.buckeyestateblog.com/node/1768

It shows Kos selling out Fighting Dem, Paul Hackett in the OH-2 special election shortly after Armstrong was employed by Sherrod Brown, who then made a major ad buy at Kos's various blogs, inlcuding his sports blogs.

Quid Pro Quo, thy name is Kos.

BumperStickerist

Just out of curiousity -

are we rightwing nutjobs allowed to speculate that the reason liberal bloggers who have criticized Kos (Ezra Klein, for one) are allowed to stay in "Advertising Liberally" is that they have incriminating photographs of Markos, and, as such, have more leeway?

I mean - seriously - if the wheels are going to come off this Crazy Train, they might as well come all the way off.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the artfully worded response by Markos defending Armstrong from the charges. My bet is that it'll go something like this:(While I have done business with Jerome and coauthored a book, my independent investigation into the SEC claims tell me that Jerome is not only innocent, but that he should have not settled the case but rather fought to clear his good name. Unfortunately, Jerome was just a graduate student at the time and was not fully aware of his legal situation. Also Jupitor was in the House of Sagitarius which did not bode well. Jerome's a good guy. The charges were bogus. Trust me. or else) which ends up putting Armstrong's ass in jail or being fined more than royalties from the sales of 'Crashing the (star)Gate' will ever generate.

But, seriously, until Ezra Klein produces the pictures, we'll just have to figure that he's hiding them.

.

Rick Ballard

DelDav,

Thanks for the link. I didn't think much of Hackett as a candidate - too much "fire from the lip" but Brown is easy pickings.

crosspatch

I believe there is a much bigger story in all of this. I mean bigger in the sense of context or scope, not scale or popularity. It seems that what is emerging out of all of this is the bloggers are really important ... to bloggers. Dean sort of gave the entire "netroots" thing a boost but in the end it is the average American voter going to the polls that makes the difference.

The average American voter doesn't read blogs. In fact, they don't read much of anything at all. Most of them use the internet for the pictures and videos. Seriously. Your average American hasn't read a book for pleasure in years and is really more interested in getting their iPod to sync up.

The "netroots" are more important to the "netroots" themselves than to anyone else. It is still the old time media outlets that are most important. They will read the web pages of the major media outlets but there is also a general lack of concern about the news in general. I know people that haven't seen a news broadcast in weeks, let alone read a newspaper.

I would say the majority of Americans hate reading and even more hate writing. This entire Kos/Armstrong Axis of Ego is really all about a small group of people that take themselves entire too seriously when it comes to how much influence they have on the general society.

ed

Hmmmm.

@ BumperStickerist

Actually Kos **cannot** do that at all.

The agreement that Armstrong signed with the SEC forbids him from denying the existence or validity of the charges leveled against him by the SEC. Or having anyone else do so on his behalf.

Armstrong literally cannot defend himself vis a vis the SEC and neither can anyone else defend him. It's possible that someone completely unnconnected to Armstrong could post a defense. But that wouldn't have any credibility because, being completely unnconnected, how would they know. And if there is any sort of connection the SEC would immediately hammer Armstrong into silly putty.

This is the same mechanism used against Martha Stewart. Had Martha simply admitted what had happened then she would have been required to sign a similar agreement. But because Martha prevaricated, i.e. deceived, the SEC investigators they upped the ante and put her in jail.

The same end stage is entirely possible for Armstrong is he tries to deny the SEC charges. If Kos tries to deny the charges on Armstrong's behalf the SEC could revoke the agreement and send Armstrong to jail. And this could even involve Kos where Kos could be in serious trouble for helping Armstrong violate the terms of his agreement.

Which is probably why Kos didn't even try to defend Armstrong in his initial response.

Oh there will be great consuming of popcorn over this.

Terry

It seems to me that Zengerle has been far more responsible in his handling of this matter than such moonbats as atrios or Kos himself. Atrios would have blamed Blogger and some technical problem for his getting a detail wrong in one of his posts, while Kos would simply attack, attack, attack, etc.

Pisistratus

There's a huge gap in explanatory power in Zengerle's story here:

" After returning to these two sources this weekend, TNR learned that when initially shown the three emails, both sources immediately recognized the 181-word Greenwald email and the 389-word Stark email; having determined that those two emails were authentic, the sources just assumed the 22-word Gilliard email was authentic, as well. We now know it wasn't. These were clearly honest mistakes on the parts of the second and third sources."

So now Zengerle wants me to take his word for it that two of his three sources made "honest mistakes"? I don't see what's so clear about it. How do I know Zengerle won't be back in two days revising that statement.

Meanwhile, call Greenwald hysterical all you want Mr. Maguire-it's your somewhat sad blog. He was right and you were wrong.


Jane

This stuff seems to be coming too fast and too neatly for some reason. First we have yearly Kos, and a guest spot on Meet the Press; Armstrong's troubles emerge, we find out about the secret cabal clownhouse; David Brooks takes a swipe; then Kos is on the cover of Newsweek with an unflattering story.

I'm beginning to think it reeks of Hillary.

Rick Ballard

"He was right and you were wrong."

Pis, you caught something from Jerry on the other thread. You know how to cut and paste - put the "wrong" statement in so we can all tell what you're whinging about.

richard mcenroe

psistatrus... gotcha. Kos never sent the e-mail he sent. His buddy isn't a stock-swindling star-twiddler. The fiercely "independent" lefty blogs didn't have a secret e-mail list where they coordinated their memes.

I told ya, guys, "22 words."

topsecretk9

--Meanwhile, call Greenwald hysterical all you want Mr. Maguire-it's your somewhat sad blog. He was right and you were wrong.--

Because the existence of Townhouse proved Glenn wrong? I thought it was de-lovely Greenwald jumped all over the fake but accurate email instead of dealing with his Authoritarian Cult membership.

crosspatch

I'm beginning to think it reeks of Hillary

Nah, it's all about the print media being afraid of the e-media. Face it, only a certain portion of the population reads. That's Newsweek's target audience. For the portion that reads, blogs are more fun than a magizine for several reasons. The most important being you can talk back, add to the story, debunk something you know not to be true ... news in the e-media is alive. News on paper is in some ways as dead as the trees it is printed on.

This is just another salvo in Pulp Media vs. E-Media

richard mcenroe

Ed — Actually, I wonder if Kos's statements to date wouldn't be enough for the SEC to drop the hammer on Armstrong...

Pisistratus

Here ballard-this is TM in his original post:

"So the current Greenwald hypothesis is what - no one has disputed the Kos email, but Mr. Zengerle fabricated the Gilliard email a day later in order to buttress it?"

So Greenwald's hypothesis was correct. TM was wrong to reject it and belittle it. Oh you'll squirm "but Zengerle didn't fabricate it". Well who did? Zengerle himself says Gilliard didn't write it. Somebody wrote it. So what's its provenance?

Pisistratus

Hey Topsecret -accusations of authoritarian cult membership coming from this blog are more than a little funny. This place is the biggest echo/chamber peanut gallery (goober variety) I know of.

topsecretk9

I wondered on the other thread if the astrology was just a form of snake-oil, a creative stock tout preying on dupes ( you'd be surprised how many level headed, successful professionals believe and go to psychics)

anyways, this guy's digging and...

From September 2000 to March 2002, Armstrong posted 95 messages using the account myDDdotcom on AccessTel's InvestorsHub board. He predicted great potential for its technology and a big increase in price, deriding critics as "bashers." He never mentioned his relationship with the company, which was formed by some of the same executives who created Bluepoint.

I am not going to sign up, but if he was using "myDDdotcom", at that time MyDD was astrology financial prediction central...Me thinking snakeoil...

topsecretk9

Pis

Did Townhouse serv tell you to say that?

topsecretk9

Oh, sorry...Link


Rick Ballard

Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit on the left is it, Pis? Drawing attention to Greenwald's focus on the third email and the manner in which he utterly ignored what Kos and his own emails said appears to be the point of what you quoted.

RM is right - from now on it's the 22 words and not the fact that Kossuckers are being fleeced by the Clownhouse cabal. I think you have an excellent chance of success with that tactic, it would fool a three year old and that's the mental age of the target market, right?

Gary Maxwell

Wow isnt the bigger story that one of the three e-mails is from Greenwald himself? So he is out talking out of school about the bully Kos and when it gets out, he is in attack mode about a third e-mail that Jason Z is waiting for a response from a source on why it was forwarded as real. My guess remains that Gilliard sent out a draft to some, and thus his initial " my confidence was violated" posting. Who cares, Greenwald is not only a lefty nut case but also one who cant be trusted to be shared the talking points. Thats the real story, so pay attention Pis.

Pisistratus

Ballard-I knew you'd squirm away. Par for the worm.

But as for TM-who's so brave to title his post "Glenn Greenwald's Career in Comedy" and then cowardly slink away when it turns out everything Greenwald said was accurate...

Just imagine TM's update if Zengerle had produced proof that it really was Gilliard's e-mail! Oh the crowing that would ensue.

TM has no career in comedy, however, since he's a bad joke.

Gary Maxwell

Rick

What is it with this bright lights from the moth factory? Do they really think that their juvenile insults have any real impact? It weas fun to match wits with Cleo for a bit, if you can call what he came up with witty. Now this nutcase wants to pull a knife on you. Fillets for the regulars?

topsecretk9

Pis,

Did Townhouse tell you to say that too?

crosspatch

I wondered on the other thread if the astrology was just a form of snake-oil, a creative stock tout preying on dupes

If you are saying something that you know isn't true in order to make money, it is nice to have something to point the blame to when the chickens start looking for roosting places. You can then point to the astro stuff and say "Hey, don't blame me, it's all right here ... the stars told me to say it ... I just happened to miss that Sedna was entering Gemini" or some such crapola. It's smoke.

Tom Maguire

Geez, Pis, ask Greenwald to send better minions.

Let's see, from the Pis Big Finish:

Somebody wrote it. So what's its provenance?

Well, if you don't know, how can you know that I am wrong in saying this, from my first post:

Mr. Greenwald's more complete hypothesis seems to be that Mr. Zengerle had two genuine emails and fabricated a third. Somehow that seems to change the balance of probabilities a bit, especially since the "fake" email makes the same point as the two authentic ones - why, one might wonder, would Mr. Zengerle bother to gild the lily with a fake email supporting two real ones?

Now, Zengerle has denied fabricating the "Gilliard" email himself - does that mean Greenwald was "right" with his rhetorically excessive post title, to wit, " Does The New Republic have a new Stephen Glass in Jason Zengerle?"

Sorry, too many rhetorical questions - I am skeptical that Pis can either read or distinguish right from wrong. But really, Pis, go ahead and chant "Greenwald was right" - eventually, that will be the entirety of his defense in any case.

Rick Ballard

Gary,

If you were dumb enough to be a Kossucker you might be a little prickly about the news being made public as to how big a fool you actually were. It's natural. After all, if your main purpose for existence appears to be to hold down the mean IQ, it's not like you would want to broadcast it.

The existence of the Clownhouse Cabal had to sting a bit too. Finding out that some of the pigs are more equal than others must be quite a shock.

Gary Maxwell

And did Jeralyn Merritt reaaly se a conspiracy here. This whole is so funny I can not believe it. The left is eating their young. God help you if you cant answer at least two astrological questions. You cant have access to the Townhall inner sanctum where the really good stuff gets dished.

lurker

"Wow isnt the bigger story that one of the three e-mails is from Greenwald himself? So he is out talking out of school about the bully Kos and when it gets out, he is in attack mode about a third e-mail that Jason Z is waiting for a response from a source on why it was forwarded as real. My guess remains that Gilliard sent out a draft to some, and thus his initial " my confidence was violated" posting. Who cares, Greenwald is not only a lefty nut case but also one who cant be trusted to be shared the talking points."

Where was this stated?

topsecretk9

Cross

It reminds me of that 1-800-psychics Jamaican woman they hauled off to jail...I think the clue for me is the gentile, esoteric astrology dabbler isn't truth in advertising is here...

deriding critics as "bashers." He never mentioned his relationship with the company

BTW

Read Jerome's retort...wingnuts obsessed with him and digging up the "astrology"...We'll be sure to tell Ben Demench's home-schooling mom!

Gary Maxwell

Man I am in a cabal with Hamsher and Greenwald, I am thinking real quick about how I am late for the exit. Meanwhile reaching for my wallet to see if it has evaded detection by Jerome and Kos.

Gary Maxwell

Lurker

What exactly about my post is unclear? That Greenwald wrote one fo the three posts? See TNR and one Jason Z for that info.

Lesley

I wonder what an apology from the JOM "Echo Chamber" would look like? Everyone submits a compassionate head-tilt photo with an handwritten "I'm sorry" sign?

I think that's considered de rigeur in some circles.

Gary Maxwell

Lesley

Would a one finger peace sign suffice?

Pisistratus

Actually Mag -I'm not G's minion. Glennwald represents himself quite well. But really-come on now-just imagine you're gloating if Zengerle had been right.

And Glenwald's only defense is that he's right! That's rich. More than your boy Libby can boast.

Lesley

Gary LOL

lurker

OT:

How you vote may get you killed.

Thanks, GM! :)

Libby doesn't have to boast at all. The odds that Fitz case will end up proving that Libby was right are high. We will see.

Pisistratus

Although props to you TM for even having a comment section and not deleting my comments...Yet.

Gary Maxwell

Pis

Felling a little light headed from the all of the blood loss? TM cut you so clean so many times that I bet you had not realized the wounds for time, at least until you read you weak as piss retort above anyway.

Dont bring a toy knife to a gun fight. You aint got the IQ to do battle and do anything other than waste TM's time. But maybe if you wait until Jupiter is rising, you will be in a better match up. Heck its working for you boy Jerome.

lurker

Letter From Bill Keller on The Times's Banking Records Report

Along with Hugh Hewitt's breakdown of Bill Keller's defense

Wonder what Andy McCarthy thing about the Bill Keller's response?

verner

I'm just lovin this whole sordid thing.

That's right KOS, Hillary is behind it all. She put Marty, Zengerle, the NYT and Newsweek up to it.

Evil Hillary.

Get her KOS, get her.

Gary Maxwell

Hillary 1

Dean, Kos, Sherrod Brown and Mark Warner ZERO

Of course with Kos that is pretty much par for the course.

topsecretk9

Well one thing is for sure...things aren't pretty behind the facade in KosRoots...their are 3 sources that burned Kos and the Movement Blogs -Townhouse- and apparently wanted to include Greenwald (I suspect for the Cultness)

verner

I've got it. Rove bribed Andrew Stern with a $100 million grant from Richard Melon Scafe to make KOS the face of the people's movemnnt. Hillary got wind of it, and ordered her henchmen in the old media to bring KOS down before he utterly destroys the democrat party.

That's the ticket.

Specter

This was the funniest:

You know, even paranoid people have enemies.

Yep - around every corner and behind every door. Under the bed. In the closet.

Pis - TM answered you and you did not have the guts or the intellect to refute exactly what he said. So much for being a minion. At least they have brains.

Gary Maxwell

In the movie about the Kennedy assasination, didn't the character on the park bench tell the Protagonist to follow the money and focus on who had something to gain? Good advice here too methinks.

topsecretk9

If it is the Hillary-wing (and Durbin said today, he backs Joe Lieberman democrat or independent - another hint) then Kos better find out --otherwise me thinks he loses.

Gary Maxwell

Top

Ann Althouse had it right, she said whoever did it will win because of Kos and his attacking personality. If its right, they win hands down. Even if its wrong they win though cuz it will provoke Kos into a rage and he will start blustering and looking unstable ( sound about right to you?). Ann is one smart lady.

topsecretk9

--sound about right to you?--

Yup...but his only shot is to find Hillary finger-prints and share with his movement...

topsecretk9

although...is his movement really a margin worth considering? dunno

crosspatch

I can't help but feel that if Kos goes (he isn't gone, but he does seem to be circling the bowl at this point) then Dean wouldn't be far behind. I mean, wasn't this whole "netroots" crapola part of Dean's new reality?

Gary Maxwell

His movement may be in his bowels. This whole thing looks more hokey by the moment. And exactly who has he delivered the goods for? For whom has he even made it paper thin close? NO one. He is a radio without speakers. Pretty worthless I would say.

richard mcenroe

Actually, Jerome Armstrong's past could lead to some very interesting speculation, if one was of a suitably suspicious bent.

What are the odds on even Kos picking 17 or 18 straight losing candidates (a couple of campaigns are still pending, to be fair)?

And how closely does anyone check the books on a losing campaign?

Could it be that Kos is less a kingpin and more a Max Bialystok?

crosspatch

OT: Why do I always find out about stuff like this after it's over? I am obviously not on the right mailing lists.

Specter

I wonder if the whole thing isn't more along the lines of semi-megalomania. What started as a roots campaign tool, turned into a monster - as the perceived power grew, so did the ego to the point of "I am a King Maker" - pay me for it. Power corrupts....Democrats = Society of Subversion.

Gary Maxwell

Dont think for a moment that the Hill gang doesn't want Dean sent back to the People's Republic of Vermont. If he and Kos are a twofer, that would be even better from her camp's perspective. I want him to stick around or noisily to start a third party. The latter would be a hoot of all hoots as it got almost no votes and zero electoral votes.

MayBee

How does a candidate get in the "Netroots Endorsed" square on Kos's blog?

Gary Maxwell

Maybee

Assume the position and kiss the ring ( or something else ?)?

Anonymous Liberal

We have one e-mail that was not from the list which changes nothing about the fact that Kos was trying to give the netschlongs their marching orders.

One errant fact has not invalidated the story.

I believe those exact words were uttered by about a million democrats in the wake of the Dan Rather memo-gate fiasco. Remember how the secretary said the memo was fake but the substance was real? Of course that point fell on deaf ears in the rightie blogosphere. Everyone here insisted that the real story was the fake memo and not the fact that Bush never completed his Guard duty. I guess when the shoe's on the other foot...

Anyway, TM, respectfully, I think your characterization of Glenn's original post was deliberately obtuse. His post was accurate. Your basic gripe seemed to be about emphasis, not accuracy, yet the post read as if you were questioning his veracity, and your readers took it that way.

It's true that you never claimed the Gilliard email was authentic, but you're now parsing the words of your own post in the same way you wouldn't allow Glenn to. It seems like a bit of a double-standard at this point.

Glenn was not attempting to opine about the whole Kosola thing (which, frankly, strikes me as an entirely baseless charge anyway). His post was aimed at what he saw (rightly) as a journalistic breach by Zengerle. Zengerle has no copped to the error, and without providing a good explanation for how it happened. You may think Glenn's post was too breathless in tone, but Glenn was right, and the error by Zengerle was not trivial.

Time to move on.

topsecretk9

--wasn't this whole "netroots" crapola part of Dean's new reality?--

hmmm... Rahm Emanuel, D-Ill., head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee who works closely with his counter Schumer (DSC) --Schumer was recently put on the roots hit list for backing Lieberman I or D-- said he was stepping down from the DCCC in Nov...and was battling Dean who he had to "work" with...now I am not positive but I am sure Dean would be a "Townhouser" since they said the serv consisted of elite liberal bloggers, journalist (don't get me started on that one) and political operative and well Armstrong worked for Dean...

Was Rahm on the "Townhouse" list?

Rick Ballard

MayBee,

I've been thinking about what you wrote concerning the dispersion of the nutroots so thinly that they carry no weight. That doesn't actually conflict with my theory that they are so heavily concentrated in no contest Blue Castles that they are meaningless. In fact the two ideas are complimentary.

Do you remember the Iowa primary where Dean's nutrooters showed up in their orange baseball hats and scared the hell out of normal Iowans? That's why the party wants them off the porch - outside of the Blue Castles they're a touch (about a light year) out of the "normal" range.

I wonder if there will be a big drive in early November to get the nutrooters not to volunteer in red states? It would make sense.

topsecretk9

Seems Townhouse message is "ignore" Glenn and the other guys email...and ignore Townhouse in general...focus ONLY on the 22 words of the phantom.

crosspatch

Nice try, AL, but the Rather thing won't fly because the document was a forgery and that document was the story. Here we have three documents. One was attributed to someone who says it wasn't his. My guess is that the source didn't make up that document, he mis-attributed it, and it probably didn't come from Townhouse, it probably came from a different mailing list. It might have even been a direct-send and not from a distribution list, in which case, the source is outed and that is why there has been no response.

I have seen this kind of thing happen often. Imagine an email thread on a large distribution list with a lot of quoted text from a lot of people. I have often seen someone cut/paste something from one of those and mis-attribute the quote to the wrong person. Until the original source responds, there is no way to know. My guess is that the original source might have given themself away with that text, though, and that is why the silence.

Gary Maxwell

The secretary who was not the personal secretary of the Colonel who his own wife said tyoped his own memos? That one AL? the secretary who was a registered Democrat who was quoted as hating GWB? That one AL.

Surely you can come up with better material than that AL. Glenn was blustering to try to cover that one of the e-mails was from himself. A fairly minor point except for how everyone reacted.

Who all is on the list AL? Come on tell us, you are on the A list now aren't you? It is kinda of a dis to those not included in Townhouse dont you agree?

verner

Yeah TS. The KOS kids matter to the dem party. For example, the SEIU that Kos is fronting for has a reported 1.7 million members. Put that together with the space aliens who believe that the Twin Towers got blown up by Bush and you've got around 20% of the base. If they bolt, and either support a third party candidate, or stay at home--Hillary will have a very hard time winning a national election.

And I believe that she will be the contender.

Hillary will have to bet that she can grab enough of the middle. Maybe her calculation is that if she stands up the the loonies, she'll have a better chance of it.

I doubt it though.

ed

Hmmm.

@ richard mcenroe

Ed — Actually, I wonder if Kos's statements to date wouldn't be enough for the SEC to drop the hammer on Armstrong...

No idea. It might take stronger statements by Kos to make something happen. But from what I understand about these cases the purpose is that the SEC is trying to preserve the credibility of the markets. So the reason why they're willing to enter into these agreements is to ensure that people can trust the markets over any specific criminal proceedings. And preserving the credibility of the markets is probably also the driving force behind severely punishing anybody who violates one of these agreements.

...

IMHO this whole thing is amazing. If anybody even tried to tell me this as a basis for a piece of fiction I'd have laughed at them. Really now.

A major political consultant (Armstrong) with a background as an astrological stock-picker and a criminal background for violating SEC regulations that resulting in fleecing of many small investors. Who then has an under-the-table quid pro quo agreement with a major player in the Democratic Party? Who then, upon breaking of the story, issues a widely dispersed dictat of omerta while actually expecting some sort of sanctity of that dictat?

Is there anything else that's wierd that could possibly get included in this? Well other than the very curious thing about Kos and Paul Hackett. Shortly after Armstrong was hired by Sherrod Brown's campaign Kos abandoned Hackett.

All we need are space aliens, Atlantis and a sex worker with a donkey on a lead and we'd have pretty the kitchen sink.

crosspatch

f anybody even tried to tell me this as a basis for a piece of fiction

Thats the difference between truth and fiction. Fiction has to make sense so as to be believable.

Anonymous Liberal

Who all is on the list AL? Come on tell us, you are on the A list now aren't you? It is kinda of a dis to those not included in Townhouse dont you agree?

If it's a dis', then consider me dissed, because I'm not on the list. I don't know much about it.

As for the Rather thing, at the risk of digressing wildly, my point was that the fake memo was hardly the only piece of evidence that Bush sherked his guard duty. But whenever anyone tried to point that out, it fell on deaf ears in right blogistan. Apparently it still does.

crosspatch

It was the only piece of *physical* evidence. The rest is anecdotal from people with an axe to grind.

topsecretk9

---criminal background for violating SEC regulations that resulting in fleecing of many small investors. ---

OK, this is weird because A- I was told by them that a serial movie reviewer plagiarist was the worst kind of human B- Reminded daily of the KKKulture of Kurruption -- bilking small investors is corrupt and criminal and C- Don't get me started on the blood-sucking capitalist theme...and? c r i c k e t s I mean NOW that Townhouse has been outed and unless they are receiving orders under a new email serv...it should be more than c r i c k e t s...at least at DU who see of course Rove behind this...did Kos know Rove was a Townhouser?

Gary Maxwell

Sorry you were dissed. They reduced the average IQ of the group by leaving you out.

But your stated point was that a Secretary said the memos were to paraphrase fake but accurate. I stated that there are many questions about the secretary what she could possibly known about anything. She was a pool secretary and the Colonel was known to do his own typing. Plus the story had been beat to death previously by Ann Richards in her losing Governor's race and there was nothing new about anything to merit a mention on the national news except for new docs.

Now while you are on a roll, tell me about Kerry wonderful service and the horrible swiftboating. I need a nite nite story.

MayBee

my point was that the fake memo was hardly the only piece of evidence that Bush sherked his guard duty.

Well, it really was the only piece of evidence. The rest was all assertion.
Imagine if Dan Rather would have held up a group of memos from John Kerry's commander stating that Kerry had not deserved his medals and had bee dishonorably discharged. If those memos turned out to be fake, what would you say about the story?

The Zengerle thing is different, take that email out and you still have the same story. However you see it, it is the same story. I'm sure Zengerle is very sorry it got in there, however. Quite obviously, nobody was talking about Armstrong and Kos had asked people not to.
Anyway, someone turned the emails over and Kos is scurrying. And the kossacks are writing diary after diary about how important *they* are, too.

topsecretk9

Gary

Althouse was right...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/25/223244/966

topsecretk9

oh and read the poll at the end and tell me Glenn's cult meme didn't blow up in his face

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/25/18349/1109

Anonymous Liberal

The Zengerle thing is different, take that email out and you still have the same story. However you see it, it is the same story. I'm sure Zengerle is very sorry it got in there, however. Quite obviously, nobody was talking about Armstrong and Kos had asked people not to.

I agree that the fake email doesn't detract significantly from Zengerle's point. But his point made no sense to begin with. I can personally attest to the fact that left-wing bloggers are not afraid of or intimidated by Kos. People didn't write about the story because they didn't understand it or didn't think it was significant. There was no real substance to it (and there still isn't). Hardly any right wing bloggers wrote about it either. Were they following Kos' marching orders too? Please. What's clear from the genuine emails Zengerle printed is that left-wing bloggers didn't know what to make of the story. They were hoping Jerome or Markos would give their side of it so they would know what to think about the whole thing. That's not at all sinister. This whole 'Kos as Kingpin' meme is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. As regular readers of blogs, you all must see how stupid that accusation is. It's just not at all reflective of how blogs actually work, either economically or ideologically.

Keeping liberals in line is like herding cats. It's even worse with liberal bloggers. Markos couldn't give orders if he tried.

richard mcenroe

"22 Words," AL?

Damn, I expected better from a local.

richard mcenroe

"Keeping liberals in line is like herding cats. It's even worse with liberal bloggers. Markos couldn't give orders if he tried."

Then why Townhouse?

Gary Maxwell

Well he is not the leader of the "leaderless" borg.

You dont think its news that Townhouse exists and more importantly has MSM reporters on the distribution list. REALLY?

verner

Do you know MAyBee, the National Guard story was even WORSE before it got to the 60 minutes editors. Mapes did a long interview with Hackworth--you remember, the guy who brought us Abu Ghraib and worked for Fenton communications client Ben Cohen at True Majority. She felt that Hackworth was a valid source, even though he had nothing to do with GWB or the TANG memos. Of course, that didn't keep Hackworth from authenticating them for Mapes.

In other words--pure political hatchet job form beginning to end. And likely fabricated by fruit loop Bill Burkett and the left wing cottage industry (resently morphed in the the Joe and Valerie fan club)that started the National Guard BS in the first place.

Mapes is lucky she didn't go to jail for fraud.

Gary Maxwell

Someone find me one of those " what liberal bias" rants we periodically hear so I can show our dear visitor why it might be clue to whats going on with Townhose, I mean Townhouse.

Rick Ballard

Yeah, all the lefty blogs are so damned independent that they have no need for a Clownhouse passing around info like a group of thirteen year old girls calling each other before school to make sure they wear the "right" thing.

I would have thought that you were one of the "more equal" bloggers AL. Do you think the Clownhouse cabal blackballed you?

Seixon

Anonymous Liberal,

Look, DailyKos is the life blood for many blogs, such as Glenn Greenwald. If it wasn't for DailyKos, Greenwald wouldn't be what he is today in the blog world. You don't think that has Greenwald respecting what Kos has to say on their self-admitted coordination e-mail list? Please.

Kos is the liberal blogosphere sugar daddy, and none of them wants to upset him because then he won't link to them anymore. We see how vindictive Kos is, when TNR just brings up some stuff, Kos disowns them as liberals all together.

I think the news that prominent liberal bloggers were on an e-mail list together with political operatives, journalists, and political advocacy groups. I always suspected that was the case though, you can virtually see the coordination on a lot of the stuff that passes through the liberal blogosphere.

I have some good guesses which journalists are in on the scoop....

verner

"Keeping liberals in line is like herding cats. It's even worse with liberal bloggers. Markos couldn't give orders if he tried."

You've GOT to be kidding. Here's an educated guess for you. KOS wasn't the only one getting payola. I bet quite a few of the blogs Kos is linked to get a little check in the mail. Especially the ones that appeared in panels in Vegas. Its in their enlightened self-interest to march to the little emperor's orders.

MayBee

Rick-

That doesn't actually conflict with my theory that they are so heavily concentrated in no contest Blue Castles that they are meaningless. In fact the two ideas are complimentary.

You know I can absolutely see that. In my experience, people who are too used to having people agree with them have a very hard time engaging with people that don't agree with them. Whether that comes about because all of your political discourse takes place in an echo chamber or because you live in the bluest of castles maybe doesn't matter.
The Dean people did either frighten the locals or p*ss them off, I'm not sure which. They didn't even realize they were doing it, so perhaps that supports the Blue Castles theory most of all.

Seixon

"Keeping liberals in line is like herding cats. It's even worse with liberal bloggers. Markos couldn't give orders if he tried."

Well that's a crock, because that's exactly what he did. Keeping liberals in line is pretty damn easy, actually. Just look at how Al Gore and Russ Feingold have them all atwitter. What did they have to do? Just tell the liberals what they want to hear. That's all.

Kos doles out what is virtual cash by linking to other liberal blogs. Then on top of that we have the liberal blog ad network.

It's basically a liberal Pajamas Media. While Pajamas Media is out in the open, the liberal network of blogs is trying to maintain their "independent" image.

It's funny you know. In the film Outfoxed, we watch them talk about how the Fox heads would talk about what they were going to cover for the day, how they would cover it, etc. That's basically what the prominent liberal bloggers are doing. Ironic funny stuff.

Anonymous Liberal

You dont think its news that Townhouse exists and more importantly has MSM reporters on the distribution list. REALLY?

What? First of all, I'm not sure whether MSM reporters were a part of that listserve. But more importantly, it's existance wasn't a secret. There were tons of people on that list (though I wasn't one of them). It was just a way for people to bounce ideas off one another before they were completely formed, or to announce that you just finished a new blog post or made an interesting discovery. There are millions of such lists. They are incredibly common in academia, for instance.

It's just a forum for sharing ideas, not an tool for enforcing discipline. Please. You guys seem awfully paranoid. God forbid bloggers might email each other. Tom and I have emailed quite a bit in the past. Are we part of some cabal?

crosspatch

It is very easy to keep liberals in line. They are fixated on their celebrities. More accurately, they appear to be worried about falling out of favor with their peers. Look at what they do to Joe Lieberman or lately Hillary. It is an attempt to herd those politicans "back into line". Don't get me wrong, Liberals seem to have some causes that are simply vital for our future, like making sure our school kids in California know who all the famous homosexuals were in history. And cutting off Christian fellowship groups in prisons while offering Muslims a Quran and a prayer rug.

When a Democrat would dare say that maybe we are doing the right thing in Iraq and his party runs someone against him in a primary! So much for tolerating any diversity of views. What a crock.

Tom Maguire

Anyway, TM, respectfully, I think your characterization of Glenn's original post was deliberately obtuse. His post was accurate. Your basic gripe seemed to be about emphasis, not accuracy, yet the post read as if you were questioning his veracity, and your readers took it that way.

It's true that you never claimed the Gilliard email was authentic, but you're now parsing the words of your own post in the same way you wouldn't allow Glenn to. It seems like a bit of a double-standard at this point.

Well, if Greenwald wants to have posts titled " Does The New Republic have a new Stephen Glass in Jason Zengerle?", then parsing and counter-parsing is the only game in town. Obviously, he wanted to insinuate that Zengerle had fabricated the email himself, but didn't want to saddle himself with that absurd charge if it blew up (which it has, despite you and Pis telling me that Greenwald was "right".

My point was never that the email was authentic or (let me quote him here) "no basis existed for the claim that it was false", although it was convenient for Greenwald to mislead about that.

My point was that by de-emphasizing key evidence, Greenwald's absurd charge of fabrication (as opposed to, for example, misattribution) was a bit more plausible.

My impression is that if Greenwald had presented that fact that two emails were authentic, including his own, his post would have been absurd on its face (supporting evidence - just why did he bury that fact?).

Another of my impressions is that he put in a clarifying UPDATE in response to reader bafflement in the comments, but I don't have the specifics as to when he put those UPDATES in.

Just to be clear - from the original Greenwald post:

Zengerle caused The New Republic to print a completely fabricated e-mail and then falsely attribute it as one Gilliard sent to the Townhouse list. How and why did that happen?

What evidence supports the claim that it was "completely fabricated"? Or, if there is no evidence, how can Greenwald be "right"?

AT best (for him) it is too soon to tell. My guess is that we have some sort of mis-attribution, which strikes me as far different from fabrication.

Dwilkers

This story is so damn ironic and funny.

First it involves Greenwald, who wrote the Bush Cult thing a while back accusing center-right bloggers of supporting Bush nop matter what. Add in that at its root it involves Kos and Armstrong being neck deep in the Dem party heirarchy. Toss on top them profiting personally. Throw on top of all THAT them implicitly controlling the message across the left blogs through their advertising org and telling people what to write about in an A-List email group.

Everything the left accuses the right blogosphere of doing they are doing themselves.

The only thing that could make it even more funny would be if lefty trolls were coming in here, in spite of everything that has been revealed over the last week or so, posting about how this site is an echo chamber, or the people HERE are stupid.

Oh wait, Pis was here doing that wasn't he.

noah

Apparently Greenwald was telling the truth when he wrote that the purported Gilliard e-mail must be fake because he didn't receive a copy of it.

But why should anyone trust Greenwald to tell the truth? If he wasn't a known liar then he would have "credibility".

Dwilkers

It was just a way for people to bounce ideas off one another before they were completely formed, or to announce that you just finished a new blog post or made an interesting discovery.

Yeah, that's all. Just a bunch of like minded folks brainstorming ideas. Ideas like:

My request to you guys is that you ignore this for now....If any of us blog on this right now, we fuel the story. Let's starve it of oxygen.

Just "ideas" about how folks should ignore an apparent money making scam involving the author of the 'what to write' instructions. Instructions which those people promptly proceeded to strictly obey.

Gary Maxwell

First of all, I'm not sure whether MSM reporters were a part of that listserve.

I was under the impression that this has been confirmed. I've seen speculation here on who it might be. TopDoggie got any info? If I am wrong, I dont want to perpetuate a fable, that would be too progressivesque.


But more importantly, it's existance wasn't a secret.

Really? It seems to be news here to all, not just me. If more than two people know about something, I guess you can say its not a secret but it certainly is to all except those few.

There were tons of people on that list (though I wasn't one of them).

Well now you are seeming to state a fact that begs another question. How do you know? Have you seen the list? I would not put a handful of folks down as "tons". Name some names that are not out in the public view, or admit you dont have a clue if its 5 or "tons".

Dwilkers beat me to the rest of your post and I will just not repeat what he has already obliterated.

MayBee

Both Kos and Greenwald say there were journalists on the list. They say left-leaining journalists, but I don't know if that precluded MSM or not. No names have been given.
Either Greenwald or Kos described the list as being 300 journalists, political operatives and bloggers. All of such like mind they kept it secret until now.

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