When It Snows, It Pours

Treasury Secretary John Snow responds to NY Times Executive Editor Bill Keller's open letter defending the Times decision to reveal details of a formerly secret program to monitor terrorist's international cash movements:

Dear Mr. Keller:

The New York Times' decision to disclose the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program, a robust and classified effort to map terrorist networks through the use of financial data, was irresponsible and harmful to the security of Americans and freedom-loving people worldwide. In choosing to expose this program, despite repeated pleas from high-level officials on both sides of the aisle, including myself, the Times undermined a highly successful counter-terrorism program and alerted terrorists to the methods and sources used to track their money trails.

Your charge that our efforts to convince The New York Times not to publish were "half-hearted" is incorrect and offensive. Nothing could be further from the truth. Over the past two months, Treasury has engaged in a vigorous dialogue with the Times - from the reporters writing the story to the D.C. Bureau Chief and all the way up to you. It should also be noted that the co-chairmen of the bipartisan 9-11 Commission, Governor Tom Kean and Congressman Lee Hamilton, met in person or placed calls to the very highest levels of the Times urging the paper not to publish the story. Members of Congress, senior U.S. Government officials and well-respected legal authorities from both sides of the aisle also asked the paper not to publish or supported the legality and validity of the program.

Indeed, I invited you to my office for the explicit purpose of talking you out of publishing this story. And there was nothing "half-hearted" about that effort. I told you about the true value of the program in defeating terrorism and sought to impress upon you the harm that would occur from its disclosure. I stressed that the program is grounded on solid legal footing, had many built-in safeguards, and has been extremely valuable in the war against terror. Additionally, Treasury Under Secretary Stuart Levey met with the reporters and your senior editors to answer countless questions, laying out the legal framework and diligently outlining the multiple safeguards and protections that are in place.

You have defended your decision to compromise this program by asserting that "terror financiers know" our methods for tracking their funds and have already moved to other methods to send money. The fact that your editors believe themselves to be qualified to assess how terrorists are moving money betrays a breathtaking arrogance and a deep misunderstanding of this program and how it works. While terrorists are relying more heavily than before on cumbersome methods to move money, such as cash couriers, we have continued to see them using the formal financial system, which has made this particular program incredibly valuable.

Lastly, justifying this disclosure by citing the "public interest" in knowing information about this program means the paper has given itself free license to expose any covert activity that it happens to learn of - even those that are legally grounded, responsibly administered, independently overseen, and highly effective. Indeed, you have done so here.

What you've seemed to overlook is that it is also a matter of public interest that we use all means available - lawfully and responsibly - to help protect the American people from the deadly threats of terrorists. I am deeply disappointed in the New York Times.

Sincerely,

[signed]

John W. Snow, Secretary
U.S. Department of the Treasury

Wow.  There was nothing half-hearted about that.

Here is a relevant excerpt from Keller's letter:

  A secondary argument against publishing the banking story was that publication would lead terrorists to change tactics. But that argument was made in a half-hearted way. It has been widely reported — indeed, trumpeted by the Treasury Department — that the U.S. makes every effort to track international financing of terror. Terror financiers know this, which is why they have already moved as much as they can to cruder methods. But they also continue to use the international banking system, because it is immeasurably more efficient than toting suitcases of cash.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg of the Times has the unhappy assignment of presenting the story in which her newspaper is described by the President as "disgraceful"; here is the WaPo version.

As to "What Can We Do"?  The obvious tactic would be to announce some sort of boycott of Times advertisers, or even commence a letter-writing campaign to them.  One doubts that many companies would prefer to be involved in this battle.

Based on this report from AJ Strata, such a boycott, or letter campaign, could attract bipartisan support: from a CNN interview with Bill Keller, anti-war icon Jack Murtha "begged" him to sit on this story.

Hmm.  At the CNN site, the story is this:

Keller said he knew of only three people outside of the administration who were asked by the administration to contact the paper -- Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton from the 9/11 commission, and Democratic Rep. Jack Murtha.

"Not all of them urged us not to publish," Keller said.

Keller, who was accused of arrogance by Snow, told CNN, "I think it would be arrogant of us to pre-empt the work of Congress and the courts by deciding on our own that these programs are perfectly legal and abuse-proof."

"We spent weeks listening to the administration's case," he said.

Well, I am glad the Times decided to pre-empt Congress by publishing their story rather than deferring to Congressional hearings, legislation, or, dare we say it, Congressional silence.

As to Murtha and AJ, Treasury Secretary Snow says that the 9/11 co-chairmen urged the Times to sit on the story; that makes Murtha the odd man out.  That said, I didn't see the interview, and the CNN excerpt may be misleading.

And I know that AJ will be thrilled to pick up support from right-wing favorite CBS:

In an interview Monday on CNN's "The Situation Room," Keller revealed that Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., who has been a vocal critic of the Iraq war, also urged the Times not to print the information.

I can't find a proper "Situation Room" transcript at Lexis-News right now, either - the 5:00 PM EST transcript does not include a Keller interview.  (Not now and for me, anyway...).  Developing...

MORE:  Let's count Murtha out, and wonder about the quality of coverage at CBS:

Hold the phone.  INDC Bill e-mailed me to point out that Keller says, “Three people outside of the administration were asked by the administration to call us … all of them spoke, they thought in confidence, and I don’t think I’ll, I don’t think I’ll breach the confidence of what they said, um, uh, although I will say that not all of them urged us not to publish.”  Snow said Kean and Hamilton urged them not to publish.  Which means, by process of elimination…

HotAir has the tape, which is apparently confusing.

WEASEL WATCH:  Here is a transcript, or see Stephen Spruiell.  But catch Keller's weaving and bobbing here:

KELLER: Well, that's true. Those are strong words. Arrogant? With all due respect, I think it would be arrogant to us to preempt the work of Congress and the courts by deciding on our own that these programs are perfectly legal and abuse-proof. We spent weeks listening to the administration's case. I personally spent a long time in Secretary Snow's office and spoke on the phone to John Negroponte. Others at the paper spoke to other officials.

I believe they genuinely did not want us to publish this. But I think it's not responsible of us to just take them at their word.

BLITZER: When you say, Bill Keller, that their efforts to convince you not to publish were half-hearted, what do you mean?

KELLER: Secretary Snow has misquoted me or misrepresented me on that one. I did not say that their efforts were half-hearted. I said that one of the several arguments that they made struck me as half- hearted. And that was the argument that was really a secondary argument that they made against publishing, which was that the publication of this information would lead terrorists to change their tactics.

"Misquoted or misrepresented"?  Let's not do that - the letter, please:

A secondary argument against publishing the banking story was that publication would lead terrorists to change tactics. But that argument was made in a half-hearted way.  It has been widely reported — indeed, trumpeted by the Treasury Department — that the U.S. makes every effort to track international financing of terror. Terror financiers know this, which is why they have already moved as much as they can to cruder methods. But they also continue to use the international banking system, because it is immeasurably more efficient than toting suitcases of cash.

So when Keller wrote "made in a half-hearted way", he didn't actually mean "their efforts were half-hearted", which led to Treasury Secretary Snow misquoting or misrepresenting him.

Yeah, he sure nailed Snow lying there, didn't he?  Uh huh.  Next, Keller discusses the availability of the Brooklyn Bridge as something an eager viewer might want to buy.  Act now.

[Hmm - sometimes you really should not hit the "Post" button and rush off to dinner; that extra minute to reflect can be valuable.  Keller is saying that his point was that *a part* of the Admin effort was half-hearted, not the whole effort; maybe in toto, the effort was seven-eighths hearted, or some such.

Snow said this:

Your charge that our efforts to convince The New York Times not to publish were "half-hearted" is incorrect and offensive.

And a bit later:

Indeed, I invited you to my office for the explicit purpose of talking you out of publishing this story. And there was nothing "half-hearted" about that effort.

Tricky - Snow might be reasonably irked at the suggestion that any part of his effort was less than enthusiastic; Keller can reasonably claim that he was only saying that the Admin pushed hard on some points but not others, and that Snow should not imply that Keller said the entire effort lacked zeal.  Got it.]

Comments

[topsecretk9]

The fact that your editors believe themselves to be qualified to assess how terrorists are moving money betrays a breathtaking arrogance and a deep misunderstanding of this program and how it works.

Oh Keller, My proxy!

[Neo]

Keller now comes across crap. He lies, he has a god complex.

This man needs to be fired. This man needs to go to jail. This guy is worse than the Ken Lays of the world; he only did it for money. The Times now look worse than Enron; they only did it for money. Keller does it because he elected himself as the final arbitrator of what is good and wholesome in America. If the Times doesn't fire this clown, they should be brought down like Enron.

These arrogant SOBs.

[topsecretk9]

You know Neo...

The Times now look worse than Enron; they only did it for money.

I might, MIGHT agree with that, but the proof is in the pudding...they ain't making no money...I will go with illusions of grandeur, though...as in...

If we just do THIS, MAYBE...MAYBE we will crack the Bush Admin, become the heros and start racking in the mullah

...otherwise, I am going with BDS. The Times view---if we're going down--we'll do our damnedest to take Bush with us

[crosspatch]

Check radioblogger.com for a transcript. I believe Hugh Hewitt played that interview on his program today.

[topsecretk9]

oops...meant.. the order I think

1. Illusions of grandeur
2. BDS take no prisoners
3. Money

The reason I think #1, is they really do thinks us red-staters are stoopid and so they are wondering why classified story number one didn't work...they'll take their second audience as salvation though (think sloppy reader seconds)...the only people to read the NYT's? Congress.

[crosspatch]

Also, when I go to AJ's site, I get content from just after Katrina. Been having that problem off and on all day. Mostly on.

[Carol Herman]

Any bets that the paper wins the pulitzer?

Shameless works. But then, back in 1976 the WaPo had no trouble disguising the #2 guy at the FBI as "Deep Throat." An otherwise porn movie character that had blow jobs looking like sword swallowing.

From there it was but a small step to this.

The bigger question is if there's a strong public outcry. Or not.

One of the reasons the left has no heroes; but still keeps on pumping out its garbage, is that it doesn't seem to awaken outrage across this country. Like an ocean absorbing spit, what clue would Bill Keller get that he's done wrong?

The Saudis probably own all of the players, now. Even George Soros isn't the biggest gambler at that table.

As to the terrorists, once they get checks, their lives seem to get shortened. Their marked. And, then they "go."

The best policy is a terrorist that's dead is one less terrorist. Bringing them to "justice" doesn't work. Again, with silent Saudi backing the NY Times destroyed Gitmo as a lockup.

Though I'll grant ya those going back to Saudi Arabia get their just desserts, just the same.

And, the NY Times? They lack heroes. Bill Keller isn't one. Patrick Fitzgerald isn't one. Some of this stuff is similar to John Kerry's refusal to call the President and conceed. In other words, highly delusional people tend to self-destruct. Of course, faster. please.

[vnjagvet]

Keller is clearly not one for applying the fundamentals.

He is ignoring the first rule of holes: When in too deep, stop digging.

As we discussed in an earlier thread on this subject, it is now time for the head of a Congressional Committee, or the AG or the Sec. Treas. to appoint a team to investigate those of the Times' sources who blabbed the classified details of the program.

Subpoena the Times to disclose all reporters who participated in investigating the issue and preparing the article. Then subpoena all of them to disclose all of their sources for the classified details.

Then watch the sparks fly.

Politically, prosecuting Keller and the Times is one step too far, although they deserve prosecution. And it is unnecessarily confronting the Constitutional Issues inevitably involved.

[Soylent Red]

vnjag:

You are correct. Stringing up Keller, while gratifying, is not the best way to burn the NYT down.

Get to the reporters. Make them roll over. Nab the leakers.

Once the possibility of the anonymous leak is handled, no reporter would want to work for Keller. Then it is only a matter of time before he is cast down.

[Person of Choler]

"Politically, prosecuting Keller and the Times is one step too far....". Huh? If they broke a law, who cares about the political angle?

Too bad for the Rosenbergs that Walter Duranty wasn't around to publish their research results in the Times. He would have gotten another Pulitzer and they could have lived long happy lives on their book royalties.

[clarice]

I wouldn't foreclose prosecuting the paper at the outset. It is a good first step to make them disclose their sources.
It is a good idea to strip them of press passes to the WH and to forbid all intel agency and defense department employees and contractors to give interviews to them outside of regular press briefings (to which they are not credentialed).
It might seem to be a swell idea to have Congressional hearings but I fear it would devolve to posturing and muddying the waters with blather about the Constitution and privacy issues not at all relevant to the issue.

I wish I could be inside their offices right now and see the responses they are getting to the editors and the circulation department.
And I wish I knew what the Class B stockholders are going to do.

[Carol Herman]

First of all, the Rosenberg's were guilty. Their own relative turned on them. He wasn't even a college graduate. But he was, I think, the uncle to Ethel. And, he worked (maybe as a custodian), at Los Alamos. They really pressured him! And, he wasn't stupid. (In those days a lot of talented people never got to college.) It was his job to look at drawings. Remember them. And, then copy them for the Rosenberg's. Who pushed this stuff to stalin.

Now, in discussing Keller you're just not in the same type of situation. Nothing is being passed "clendestanly" anywhere. This one is more on along the lines of Deep Throat. And, the taking down of Nixon. "Internal affairs."

But the media can't seem to capture the attention of mainstream America. That's one of the reasons you see the NY Times flailing about. Poking at our War on Terror; which they don't take seriously. (Would they take it seriously if a Klintoon was in charge?) Who knows? They're used to very slippery politicians. And, they're used to yakity-yak. Not action.

Plus, I'm still pretty convinced Keller needed TO BURN DOWN THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE. Not to enflame the public so that we'd get yet another jerk-off prosecutor like Fitzgerald. The air's gone out of that one. (And, congress critters aren't looking to do a thing, either.)

Can you start a fire with a wet newspaper?

Keller left on vacation; so he's somewhat aware that this was gonna cause questions to come his way. And, where do you see the most activity? ON THE BLOGS.

Again,it's the blogs that are moving forward, exploring how Americans feel. And, touching the stories that should impact us. That go uncovered ... not covered ... by the MSM.

C-BS, we know, blinked. And, Dan RaTHer slid out of the eye without so much as a pat on his back. The send off was done in silence. No job. And, no room at Black Rock. Not even for appearances. Dan wasn't even allowed to hang his coat in the broom closet.

What did Dan want? We're past "vindication." That will never happen. But he wanted "landmarks." He wanted to go out on anniversaries. Instead, he just went out. Leaving a trail of "fake but accurate" reporting that led nutwork news into the toilet, when you judge performance by ratings.

Today, somebody said the left pays trolls to visits sites like this, so they could drop stink bombs. It's almost surprising to think someone would be paid to be as stupid as Cleo. But there ya go. Some things just aren't free. Nor are they luv. Though they occur in the shadows. And, other dark places.

I also agree that making an issue of Keller is non-productive. But, if another NY Times reporter gets to sit in jail ... then getting bait (or chum) with fewer pulitzer's attached, can have a withering affect on the "profession" of journalosum. Heck, so many reporters would have to add to their resumes that they're willing to troll for a living.

But where's the payoff in that? I've seen trolls come. And, I've seen them go. And, the only site that failed, that caught my attention as it was going down; was Kevin Drum's Cal Pundit. Next to recipes, cat blogging's are my favorites. But Kevin Drum couldn't pay the overhead when the moonbats got finished with him.

By the way, no one seems to be mentioning that Matt Cooper got dumped by TIME. With his wife's big connections (Mandy Grundwald's on Hillary's payroll); Matt couldn't hold onto his job at Time. His new paycheck is not nearly as illustrious. A has-been already. And, he hasn't even testified for Fitzmas.

I'll bet Keller's pretty angry at the failure of Fitzgerald to deliver! Too many people went to bat for Ambassador Munchausen to get so little returns for their efforts.

That's the motivator under Keller's ass. Mad as all get out. And, he wants to save his paper from disgrace. He lights a backfire. UNFORTUNATELY, nobody yet knows how the winds blow. Congress may yet "act" just to save face? And, Lieberman may yet become an independent. The illiterate Barbra Streisand is backing Lamont.

Well? When your enemy makes mistakes like this, it's wise to stock up on popcorn.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Well I understand these guys better. I was asking in the other thread who Joseph Cirincione and the Carnegie Endowment are? I just watched him testify about prewar WMD. No wonder Keller thinks everyone agrees with him if this is the kind of guy he hangs out with out there in the Hamptons. Can you say Joe Wilson and Larry Johnson?

I think the Times has stepped in it this time though. The administration is taking a much more vocal line here than they did with the NSA. Can't tell if they just feel more secure with the program or if it has to do with Tony Snow and the whole new PR agenda.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Leave it to Sweetness and Light:

Finances of Terror

September 24, 2001, Monday
(NYT); Editorial Desk
Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 30, Column 1,

Organizing the hijacking of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon took significant sums of money. The cost of these plots suggests that putting Osama bin Laden and other international terrorists out of business will require more than diplomatic coalitions and military action. Washington and its allies must also disable the financial networks used by terrorists.

The Bush administration is preparing new laws to help track terrorists through their money-laundering activity and is readying an executive order freezing the assets of known terrorists. Much more is needed, including stricter regulations, the recruitment of specialized investigators and greater cooperation with foreign banking authorities. There must also must be closer coordination among America´s law enforcement, national security and financial regulatory agencies.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Check the date of publication.

[Joe P.]

Keller's head seems permanently enveloped by what's likely a methane bubble, perhaps not uncoincidentally formed by the same source he believes most, and from whose authority he speaks -probably his lower sigmoid colon by now. He's been movin' on up in some dark world, that's for sure.

Earlier he only seemed to know a lot about "one man circle jerks", which he thought must be like blogging. I guess he has to know something, but not about blogging or "editing out details which might serve the interests of those hostile to the U.S.", which he apparently equates assbackwardly to Cartoons not published due to death threats by Islamic jihadists, while outing important anti-terrorist programs. Lower sigmoid, no doubt, and moving on up in the only way he can. Freedom of the press, indeed!

[crosspatch]

Blitzer/Keller interview CNN transcript

[salmonella5000]

You guys are really starting to slur your words and trip over the threshhold like a bunch of drunken stalinists. The only difference is, you try and try, unsuccessfully, to sound as though you are in the Grand Library of the Founding Fathers, wearing your powdered wigs, sipping some sort of VSOP santorum distillate and cajoling a couple of cowering Straussian (Leo, not Johann) whores to defecate on you while you chuckle and accuse everyone else of treason.

Clothe yourselves any way you wish, you're still Squares.

* * *

Carol Herman done wroted:

"One of the reasons the left has no heroes; but...."

I think you just hit a kind of nail right on the head! You and yours need "heroes." Your self-esteem, now and then tied in with a kind of tragic, operatic flag-waving mania, has never been very high, and heroes are easily manufactured for people like you, whether it's the Golden Calf or an American Idol.

We on the Left, as rich, hard-working, Americans, realize that we are, individually, our own heroes. We've never needed the heroes you depend on to make your lives worth living. So... you're just jealous, that's all. You want the spirituality that we earned fair and square, but you don't want to work for it.

Things aren't going well for you and your team lately, and we realize you really, really, really, need a boost, but ramping up the paranoia, the treason accusations, the "homegrown" terrorism, even the treasonous and traitorous plan of the Iraqi PM's to give amnesty to terrorists [amnesty that you're willing to accept because you're not going to win the war on terror, you can only hope that the insurgents will just disappear in Iraq just like the Nazis did in Germany. All those true blue Nazis just went "poof"!], along with your bizarre cut-and-run, flip-flopping, bring-'em-home troop reduction scheme for 2008--none, none and none of it'll save your greedy souls.

Just my two pfennigs, chief. It's okay if you don't publish this comment; I know all you stalinists don't like anyone with an opinion that's different'n yours.

[Bukko in Australia]

What a hoot! Reading right-wingers defending government spying on their financial records. You probably feel secure because you don't have enough money to make it worthwile for the government to get into it. But remember this, rightists -- it's the government spying on your phone calls, bank accounts, e-mails. What if the old Soviet Union was doing this? What if it was Bill Clinton? How would you like it then? And prosecuting the press -- sounds rather USSR-ish to me. I bet you all believe you're for democracy and the Constitution, but you're just totalitarians at heart. Government power is OK with you, as long as you think it's YOUR brand of government.

How many terrorists has this programme caught? I'll tell you one person it's mucked with -- me. I'm an American-born person who sold a valuable house in San Francisco this year and emigrated to Australia so I could escape the coming economic collapse and rise of fascism. (I'm a nurse so I could get a work visa here.) When we were moving the profits to our Swiss account, the money just vanished for a month. "Problems with the SWIFT code" we were told, even though we had made arrangements with banks on both continents beforehand. When this story camed out, I realised WHY our money went down the rabbit hole. With a bit of arm-twisting, we got the money credited. Lost a month's worth of interest -- that's over $1,000 it cost me, so you penniless buggers can chuckle at that -- but it's OK now.

Am I a terrorist? No -- just a political refugee. And whatever money and time was spent by government agents fiddling with our figures was time they didn't spend looking for terrorists. I'm not sure what the real reason for this scam is. Maybe it's just so they can steal money from wire transfers. Maybe they will turn it into a shakedown -- "You want your funds released? Pay us a $100 expediting fee..." Or to D potential campaign contributors.

At least I have the last laugh. I've got a load of money that's no longer in U.S. dollars, mate. I have a stable unionised job, health insurance and a city with electric trams that are invulnerable to any future petrol crisis. I'm in a country that's freer than the U.S. It's all falling apart in the U.S. It's going to bring you down with it. When it happens, remember there's a Yank in Oz who's laughing at your arses!

[crosspatch]

What a hoot! Reading right-wingers defending government spying on their financial records.

It would be if that is what this were about. This is about monitoring international wire transfers, has nothing to do with the "financial records" of Americans outside the scope of the above. In fact, it was monitoring of global wire transfers. How else is one to follow the terrorist money?

In the US it has been law for quite a long time to report transactions over $10,000 of any sort. That isn't an issue here.

[topsecretk9]

--Reading right-wingers defending government spying on their financial records. --

Apparently you haven't read OR know the financial systems as it stand well...Burko...even if you weren't in OZ --you move 10 plus g's for a down payment on a house...guess who is automatically notified? THE US GOV't ===always has been AKA before Bushy, LONG before

So that the US and other countries that face threat ---like Australia-- are tracking big and funny money transfers isn't a SHOCK...bit that the NYT's would like to publish the Al Queda training manual to how it's actually done? Sweet!

[topsecretk9]

bitchen mate!

[topsecretk9]

--At least I have the last laugh. I've got a load of money that's no longer in U.S. dollars, mate. I have a stable unionised job, health insurance and a city with electric trams that are invulnerable to any future petrol crisis. I'm in a country that's freer than the U.S. It's all falling apart in the U.S. It's going to bring you down with it. When it happens, remember there's a Yank in Oz who's laughing at your arses!--

I think the minute I read UNIONISEd I began laughing at you.

[Sara (The Squiggler)]

Let's see, the bank tracking law has been on the books now how long? Oh 1978 ... the illustrious Carter years. You remember those? Loan interest rates at 19%, Iran hostages, etc.

I'd be monitoring someone from San Francisco too. Feel sorry for those Australians though.

[MayBee]

I'm in a country that's freer than the U.S.

You sure about that?
Legislation in 2003 strengthened police powers to stop and search individuals and the ability of Australia's spy agencies to monitor suspected terrorist groups.
he National Security Act 2004 blocked information that could prejudice national security from being revealed in open court.
The Anti-Terrorism Act, passed in 2005 after the London transit bombings in July, included jail terms for inciting violence, detention of suspects without charge for up to two weeks, and curtailing the movements of suspects and contacts for up to a year.

Anyway, if you are moving money around internationally, I think you probably have the IRS to fear more than anything else.

[Patton]

And just what would the NYT editorial opinion be if say Karl Rove had provided this classified information to say..Saudi Arabia??

Wouldn't all the leftists today defending the NYT and the leakers be calling for Rove's execution?

Of course they would...even though they just did the same thing.

[Patton]

I don't remeber all this talk about the people right to know and proper oversight, etc. when Plame's occupation was revealed.

We were told by the left that the people who did that were traitors and needed to be punished to the full extent of the law.

[Patton]

Bukko sends his love:
"But remember this, rightists -- it's the government spying on your phone calls, bank accounts, e-mails. What if the old Soviet Union was doing this? What if it was Bill Clinton? """"
Then, Bukko, I would be worried, because both the USSR and Bill Clinton wouldn't be doing it for lawful and legitimate reasons.
They have both proven to nefarious and you can thank the rightists for getting rid of them.

" And prosecuting the press -- sounds rather USSR-ish to me.""

Really, sounds like you are very uninformed. The USSR would never have prosecuted the press for violating legitimate government secrets. The newspaper was owned by the government. Those that opposed them weren't given fair trails, the disappeared in the middle of the night. You've proven you had no clue about the USSR, just like you have no clue about defeating terrorists.

[Bukko in australia]

What's wrong with unions, mate? I get good wages -- time-and-a-half for working Saturdays, time plus 75% on Sundays. Bet you wish you had that. All thanks to unions! Not just at my hospital, but across Aussie society. And workers can't get sacked on a whim -- except the Howard government implemented a "industrial relations" law (the term Aussies have for labour law) that makes it easier for bosses to fire people and change their "conditions" (the overtime, 7 weeks' vacation we get each year, etc.) There were 200,000 people in the streets of Melbourne for a labour protest last November (although it was spring then) and we hope to have that many at tomorrow's protest march (but it's farkin' cold.) You WISH you had conditions like they have here, but you don't have unions, so your jobs are always in jeopardy. Imagine what it would be like if you had security! Life would look a lot different.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate Australia vs. America to you. It's not perfect here, b ut it's not as totalitarian as the U.S. is becoming. What never ceases to amaze me is how working-class people, the ones who aren't millionaires (and I know you're not, because millionaires have better things to do with their times than wank about on blogs) will rise to the defence of a government that is screwing them over to reward the ultra-rich people who are laughing at them even harder than I am at you.

You're being lied to and ripped off, mates, and you don't even get it. The Aussies have a word for that type of animal -- SHEEP!

[MayBee]

Bukko- I think she was probably laughing at your Aussie-enhance spelling of Unionised. You dropped the zed.

Anyway, I'm sure your newfound mates are just outraged that US and SWIFT used legal means to find the Bali bomber that killed their countrymen.

Besides, it really could never have been just the US using this information, right? I mean the Bali bombings and the London bombings makes me think Indonesia and the UK asked for help. Maybe even Australia. What do you think?

[Bukko in Australia]

When in Rome, spell as the Romans do! They make it so cumbersome, adding all sorts of extra u's "humour" and switching zeds for s's "antagonise"...

As for the Bali bombing, last week the Indos set free the Muslim cleric from Jema'ah Islamiya who was the spiritual mastermind behind the first big one. (There have been several other attacks.) They did that because the war in Iraq has radicalised the political climate in a country that was once semi-tolerant. This guy is guilty as sin, but to thumb their nose at the West and appease the masses who have had to choose which side they're on, and chose Osama's, he was sprung. It wasn't financial transactions that caught him; it was old-fashioned police work, including some by Aussie investigators who were allowed into Bali to help investigate. That cooperation would not happen today. Indonesia is so cheezed off toward Australia that they're threatening to flood the country with a wave of boat people from West Papua (the half of the island of Borneo that Indonesia tyrannises.)

Isolated in America, you rightists just don't understand how the "war on terror" has increased the level of tension all over the world. It plays out in small ways, like Indonesia adopting a hands-off policy toward illegal fishing boats that poach in the waters off Australia's north coast, and more ethnic tension in East Timor, where the Muslims and the people who went Catholic under colonial Portugal are setting each others' shacks on fire with their families still inside.

What the so-called "culture of life" has done is unleash a wave of death across the world. It's going to wash up on your shores, mate, and all the financial snooping in the world is not going to stop it.

One final thing -- you would be amazed (one of the few words where Aussies keep the zed) at how much anti-American sentiment there is in Australia. This place used to idolise the U.S. Half the prime-time TV programming is American shows, for instance. (Only they get them a year late -- "6 Feet Under" just wrapped up the series...) But now they regard America they way they would a formerly favourite uncle who turned out to be a kiddy fiddler.

[Patton]

""I get good wages -- time-and-a-half for working Saturdays, time plus 75% on Sundays""

WOW, the Union pays you that much? I thought normally you have to pay them, not the other way around. So where is all this great money coming from...not your fellow hard-working mates I hope.

I don't even have a union and I never have to work Saturdays or Sundays mate and I wouldn't care to. Why does your union make you slave away for the man on the weekends??

[davod]

Bukko:

Sounds like you are living up north. Either that or Gekkoes have found a way live down south.

[PeterUK]

To leave the fascinating exploits of the dancing dingo for a moment and return to the subject of the NYT.There was a great deal of pressure on the NYT nor to publish,there will also have been private representations made at very high levels...so the question is what was powerful enough to outweigh the pressures against publishing.
Did the issue sell any more papers for the NYT,always the bottom line for any publication.
There is very likely to be deleterious side effects such as subpoenas and withdrawal of press accreditation.So what were the forces that were greater than this,who could lean on the NYT and get them to publish?
Only two things come to mind fear and money.

[MayBee]

Isolated in America

Ummm...I'm not in America. Even if I were, I'm sure I'd not be so isloated as you imagine. I'm certain most Americans have a good feel for what is going on in the world where America is concerned.

how much anti-American sentiment there is in Australia. This place used to idolise the U.S.

Australians never idolized the US. They've been anti-American for a long time although they do like some American culture. Mostly, Australians like Australia.

It is ridiculous to blame the problem in East Timor either on the US or the Iraq war. Australia went in there to help quell Muslim-led violence years before there was a President Bush or even Sept 11. Furthermore, it is folly if you are going to pretend tensions between Indonesia and Australia (or religious tensions within Indonesia itself) are anything remotely new or remotely related to the US.

How long have you lived there, mate? Do your Australian friends just think you are like, soooooo Australian?

[PeterUK]

"you would be amazed (one of the few words where Aussies keep the zed) at how much anti-American sentiment there is in Australia. This place used to idolise the U.S. Half the prime-time TV programming is American shows, for instance. (Only they get them a year late -- "6 Feet Under" just wrapped up the series...) But now they regard America they way they would a formerly favourite uncle who turned out to be a kiddy fiddler."

Has all this transpired since you arrived Bukko?

[Bill in AZ]

er... bukko, where do those electric trains get their electricity from? by the way, good riddance...

[Jane]

>Only two things come to mind fear and money.

Never underestimate BDS.

(boring anectdote alert): Mr. Right is a liberal, particularly on issues of civil liberties. But he is a smart, very well read, informed liberal, with a perspective worth listening to.

On Friday when the story broke I asked him if he thought the NY Times should have published it. He said "yes" and then he went on to vent all sorts of outrage about how our civil liberties have been violated by this administration over and over and over again. His claim on which civil liberties was a bit vague (and we've stopped talking about it given our vastly disparate views).

I think Keller is motivated by a genuine fear of the consolidation of executive power. And since he doesn't believe the war is necessary, or even real, he views all of these programs as a means to strip away civil rights.

There is a segment of this population (Mr. Right included) who would prefer to be less safe and more free. The problem is, Mr. Keller was not elected to represent them.

[Bukko in Australia]

I work weekends because I'm a nurse in a hospital. No way to turn the patients off because it's Saturday and Sunday. And it's because of union power that Aussies -- and you -- have some rights. It was here in Victoria that the movement for the 8-hour day started, something I found out recently.

I've been here since December. No one thinks I'm remotely Australian. I'm the token American wherever I go, and I'm forever being quizzed on "what the bloody hell happened there?" Aussies DID like America, as much as they liked anywhere. "Taking the piss" at the "tall poppies" is an Aussie tradition. But all of them, from the ridgy-didge ockers who are grateful to the U.S. for WW II, to the Italians and Greeks who came here in the 1950s, to the Middle Eastern Muslims and Vietnamese boat people, all regard the U.S. with disgust.

Nice to know you're not in the U.S., MayBee, but my read on Aussie-Indo relations is that they've worsened drastically since the U.S. invasion. But I don't want to hijack this thread. The dingo is dancing out. Just remember, right-wingers -- your leaders are causing your own destruction.

[MayBee]

Aussie-Indo relations is that they've worsened drastically since the U.S. invasion.

Gee. Was there another country maybe involved in that invasion? Look around you and think about it, maybe it will come to you. In the meantime, I have a great idea. Instead of saying bad things about the US to them- or letting them say bad things about the US to you-try saying bad things about Australia. See how well they receive that. Or better yet, say NICE things about the US to them. Represent our country well, and let them see perhaps they are wrong to think we are so different than they.

It is always a mistake to believe a country you have no political stake (or say) in is free of problems. You are in a bubble.

[CS]

Bukko, the SWIFT monitoring program doesn't delay transfers. The system would break down completely, plus AQ financial intermediaries just might notice if their money kept disappearing for weeks at a time. Plus no bank would hold still for debits without matching credits on the other end. There are glitches with SWIFT coding all the time, and they're resolved in hours. It's not particle physics. I'd be right pissed at my bank, in your place, but I hope you haven't let them off the hook ("best efforts" disclaimers be damned) out of fear and loathing of the US admin.

I think you're going to be disappointed in Oz, once your new-relationship blinders come off. But I do respect that, unlike so many who swore they'd do it, you actually left the US because of the current administration. You did give up your citizenship, right?

[lurker]

"

vnjag:

You are correct. Stringing up Keller, while gratifying, is not the best way to burn the NYT down.

Get to the reporters. Make them roll over. Nab the leakers.

Once the possibility of the anonymous leak is handled, no reporter would want to work for Keller. Then it is only a matter of time before he is cast down."

Haven't caught up but do want to point out that the Holtzer indictment included Keller, Litchblau, and Risen. If anything, Keller, Pinch, Litchblau, Risen, and NYT should be indicted. Not alone.

[PeterUK]

Jane,
Most of us do not belong to the international money transfering classes,any transactions we do do are likely to be by credit card and attract tax,charges or import duty.All transactions over a certain amount are notifiable,this program is to discover unusual transations and money transfers,it simply does not embrace normal transaction.
There are too many of them and the documentation will be profuse.
It would be interesting to see which of Keller's readership transfer money in an unusual way.

[lurker]

TM - regarding whether Murtha pleaded against publishing it, good point. Good idea to double check.

[lurker]

"It is a good idea to strip them of press passes to the WH and to forbid all intel agency and defense department employees and contractors to give interviews to them outside of regular press briefings (to which they are not credentialed)."

Good idea. It will help alot but NYT can still have access to the leakers, if the leakers aren't too smart.

TalkLeft mentioned Cooper leaving Times in September to work for the new Conde Nast deal.

Like Mac says, looks like what we've done the last few days is working.

[lurker]

"

What's wrong with unions, mate? I get good wages -- time-and-a-half for working Saturdays, time plus 75% on Sundays. Bet you wish you had that. All thanks to unions! Not just at my hospital, but across Aussie society. And workers can't get sacked on a whim -- except the Howard government implemented a "industrial relations" law (the term Aussies have for labour law) that makes it easier for bosses to fire people and change their "conditions" (the overtime, 7 weeks' vacation we get each year, etc.) There were 200,000 people in the streets of Melbourne for a labour protest last November (although it was spring then) and we hope to have that many at tomorrow's protest march (but it's farkin' cold.) You WISH you had conditions like they have here, but you don't have unions, so your jobs are always in jeopardy. Imagine what it would be like if you had security! Life would look a lot different."

Take a good, long look at GM. Blame it on the unions for bringing down GM to where it is today.

Good thing my own state does not require union membership as a condition of employment.

[lurker]

Hhhmmm....John Howard's winning the election again is probably far more reflective of the Australian population than what some of your media tells you, Bukko, an American.

[lurker]

"Joseph Cirincione is testifying on CSPAN. All Cheny's fault. Not the analyst. This guy sounds gay. What is the Carnegie Endowment?"

From the Bill Keller thread.

Sara, check emptywheel about this CSPAN show:

The Most Damning News that Won't Make Your Local News

"The Senate Dems just held a hearing on pre-war intelligence, an attempt to make up for the fact that Pat Roberts has all but cancelled the Phase II investigation. As witnesses they had:

* Carl Ford ("John Bolton is a Kiss Ass Kick Down Kind of Guy" and former head of INR) [Bolton comment corrected per jonnybutter--got my ass kissing and my down kicking confused]
* Larry Wilkerson (Powell's Chief of Staff and the guy who put together Powell's UN speech)
* Wayne White (INR's principal Iraq analyst)
* Paul Pillar (who worked at the NIO and told Bush Iraq didn't have nukes)
* Joseph Cirincione (former intell)
* Michael Smith (Downing Street Memo reporter)
* Rod Barton (who wasn't allowed to discredit the mobile weapons labs)

(Thanks to Kagro X for making me go broke by watching it)

Anyway, the real fireworks were sparked, twice, by Congressman Walter Jones, who joined the Senate Dems in asking questions.

First, Jones asked how OSP had been able to hijack the intelligence and bring us to war. Larry Wilkerson answered, "The Vice President."

Then, Jones asked Joseph Cirincione if the law had been broken. Quoting from Ellicatt:

[Jones]: Do you feel the law was broken? Congress was responsible for sending troops to Iraq. Do you feel that down the road it could be seen as proven?

[Cirincione]: As deeply flawed as it is, most of it was done legally, they won the policy battles. The question now is in the coverup; are they telling the truth about their roles? These are the landmines; if congress persues this and tries to find the truth of what went wrong, you will get into criminal areas and coverup.

Well, hopefully CSPAN will replay the hearing so maybe ten more people will see this clear indictment of, as Wilkerson said, The Vice President."

Note that the list contains the extreme lefters and their efforts was to blame the VP.

UGH!!

So they had a hearing because Pat Roberts refuses to publish the phase II report.

UGH!!

They even invited Paul Pillar!

[lurker]

US: NY Times and reporters may be prosecuted

As linked by Mac Ranger.

We will see. Wonder if he knew that Snow, Levey, Kean, Hamilton were talking to NYT at that time.

[lurker]

TM, check Michelle Malkin. She just posted that Murtha actually said the opposite.

"Keller: “Not all of them urged us not to publish.”: (hotair)