Bush, McCain Et Al Reach Deal

From the AP:

WASHINGTON — The U.S. administration and Senate Republicans announced agreement Thursday on the interrogation and trial of suspects in the war on terror, clearing a major obstacle blocking legislation at the top of the Republican election-year agenda.

“We have a legislative framework that would allow terrorists to be brought to justice,” said National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, emerging from a meeting in the office of Majority Leader Bill Frist.

“The agreement that we’ve entered into gives the president the tools he needs to continue to fight the war on terror and bring these evil people to justice,” said Senator John McCain of Arizona, one of three rebellious Republican legislators who told U.S. President George W. Bush he couldn’t have the legislation the way he initially asked for it.

“There’s no doubt that the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions have been preserved,” McCain said, referring to international agreements that cover the treatment of prisoners in wartime.

Details of the agreement were sketchy.

I'll provide one detail - since Dems have been hiding behind St. John on this issue, they will have a hard time announcing at this late date that McCain lacks the integrity and judgment to be trusted.

And another detail - whether this is a victory for Bush or McCain, it is not a victory for Harry Reid and the Senate Dems.

Here is the Times coverage.

In related news - although we would not call it "torture", Brian Ross of ABC News reports that coercive interrogation works.  The NY Times had  a long piece on this in June 2005 (excerpts), from which I took away this:

- the experts think that the threat of physical coercion is a useful interrogation tactic but they offer few examples of torture itself providing actionable intelligence.

UPDATE:  Let's come back to the first point and let Digby explain why hiding behind McCain was not so shrewd:

The Republicans are now standing shoulder to shoulder having worked this whole thing out --- they are strong, they are tough, they are moral, and they are willing to work together to form a compromise that they can all live with. Aren't they great? This is why we should vote Republican.

Now watch this drive.

Ed Rogers on Hardball said Bush got to look both tough on terror and effective in bringing the senate along. Kweisi Mfume says McCain looks good to Democrats and independents and Bush looks good to Americans in general.

Can anyone in the know explain to me how letting McCain run with this torture debate benefitted the Democrats in any way?

Here's how the optics look to me:

McCain, the Republican rebel maverick, showed that Republicans are moral and look out for their troops.

Bush, the Republican statesman and leader, showed that he is committed to protecting Americans but that he is willing to listen and compromise when people of good faith express reservations about tactics.

The Democrats showed they are ciphers who don't have the stones to even say a word when the most important moral issue confronting the government is being debated.

It's a bipartisan consensus.

MORE CONSENSUS:  The Agonist:

...the Democrats we so weak-kneed there wasn't even any dissension. They just rolled over.

The Sideshow:

I'm so disgusted with the "Let's let the Republicans do it" Democrats that I might really puke. Write to them, write to them all, and ask them how in the world they can be so silent when the subject is fergodsakes torture.  I cannot believe they let this happen.  I can't believe, after all this time, they really thought they could trust any Republican to stand up for what's right and put a stop to this.  Didn't any of them even read the stupid McCain/Graham/ghost proposal?  Gah.  Read Digby, who appears to have moved beyond the teeth-gnashing phase to actual coherent sentences.

Echidne of the Snakes:

The Maverick:

That would be McCain. He's supposed to be the odd man out in the Republican party, the one who dares to disagree, nay, even challenge the rigid power structure of the party. But somehow nothing ever comes from these challenges. The wingnut power structure always gets its way and McCain ends up looking like a rebel, like an independent thinker, like a moderate. Like someone a Democrat could love.

It's a bad-cop-good-cop routine, and McCain is the good cop.  Too bad that the Democrats never learn this.

Great to see the Dem base getting energized in time for the election.  Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid - Ready to Lead!

IN SEARCH OF BETTER SLOGANS:  Here is a cheerier view of the Dem "strategy":

There is a possibility that in the past two weeks [while Bush and McCain were doing what will be described as the heavy lifting] the Democrats were able to devise their sixth iteration of a campaign slogan and strategy to roll out with less than 50 days to the election. Perhaps they could call it "Fifty States, Fifty Days...But Never Fifty Percent"? It's catchy, it's succinct, and it may well be accurate come November 8th.

Comments

[freaknik]

The Dems were absolutely horrible on this and deserve almost as much contempt for not doing as the Repubs deserve for doing.

So America is now officially in the torture business.

Osama was right that we are weak.

[Jane]

And you are an idiot.

[Terrye]

freaknick:

I know guys who went through more in their own military training than these people have to endure.

But hey, as long you can feel good about yourself we can't let something as silly and unimportant as the lives of thousands of innocent people get in the way.

[lurker]

We are in business only for the unlawful terrorists. We have remained strong and gotten stronger.

[freaknik]

Jane-you really are an ignorant slut.

Federalist Paper No. 8:

"No. 8

"The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free."

Stuff it, you cowards.

[lurker]

"The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free."

You are misinterpreting it, freaknik.

[owl]

I watched a long interview with Brian Ross (not exactly GOP) and he said the waterboarding WORKED. I have heard several retired generals say that everyone breaks within seconds/minutes with waterboarding.

It is not a matter of IF it works.....they have 14 locked up to prove it. It is a matter of some claiming superior morals plus it will supposedly protect us if France decides to capture our troops.

[lurker]

Being Nice Will Get Us Killed

Enough with the olive branches to the Islamofascists.

Written by a black.

[mcg]

freaknik, your idiocy knows no bounds. Given that Alexander Hamilton was an active participant in the bloodshed that won this country its independence, you can't possibly think he was against stripping one's enemies of life and liberty to achieve victory in a time of war. Federalist #8 refers to the stripping of the civil and political rights of a country's own citizens. He'd be turning in his grave to hear you're actually suggesting those rights ought to be extended to the country's sworn enemies who would be, but for our own intervention, actively engaged in its destruction.

[boris]

So, waterboarding a terrorist makes us less free?

Preventing attacks that murder Americans my the hundreds or thousands is cowardice?

New Dem campaign ad:

Don't vote for those cowardly Republicans !!! We have the courage to allow deadly attacks that murder your families ! We are brave enough to protect the terrorists right to privacy from storm trooper Republicans listenening in on their plots and making them tell us their secrets ! Vote Democrat ! Vote for the courage to die bravely for principles nobody in ther right mind actually understands !

[mcg]

Indeed. If it is cowardice to waterboard a high-level figure in Al Qaeda in order to obtain information about their plans to kill thousands of Americans---then please, paint my back yellow. I wil wear that stripe with pride.

[Semanticleo]

"So, waterboarding a terrorist makes us less free?"

No, 'Arbeit macht frei'.

[Jane]

I had a really interesting conversation with someone over the weekend. Their position was that if we are really serious, and this threat is as big as we believe it to be, why are we messing around? Why don't we just nuke them all and be done with it? What's with the half measures? Half measures don't work on people who want to die. Maybe it's the only way to deal with terrorists.

[lurker]

John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad

"
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John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad
By Andrew G. Bostom
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 29, 2004

Professor John Lewis Gaddis’ recent provocative analysis of the origins of “unilateralism” in American foreign policy highlights the pivotal role of John Quincy Adams. With candor and humility, Gaddis further reveals that his own contemporary assessment, “…is not a new interpretation. If you go back and read the famous Samuel Flagg Bemis, the very distinguished Yale diplomatic historian from half a century ago, Bemis was certainly making this argument about the importance of John Quincy Adams."

John Quincy Adams possessed a remarkably clear, uncompromised understanding of the permanent Islamic institutions of jihad war and dhimmitude. Regarding jihad, Adams states in his essay series,

“…he [Muhammad] declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.”

Adams on Jesus Christ and Christianity, Relative to Muhammad and Islam

"And he [Jesus] declared, that the enjoyment of felicity in the world hereafter, would be reward of the practice of benevolence here. His whole law was resolvable into the precept of love; peace on earth – good will toward man, was the early object of his mission; and the authoritative demonstration of the immortality of man, was that, which constituted the more than earthly tribute of glory to God in the highest… The first conquest of the religion of Jesus, was over the unsocial passions of his disciples. It elevated the standard of the human character in the scale of existence…On the Christian system of morals, man is an immortal spirit, confined for a short space of time, in an earthly tabernacle. Kindness to his fellow mortals embraces the whole compass of his duties upon earth, and the whole promise of happiness to his spirit hereafter. THE ESSENCE OF THIS DOCTRINE IS, TO EXALT THE SPIRITUAL OVER THE BRUTAL PART OF HIS NATURE." (Adam's capital letters)….[pp. 267-268]

“In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE (Adam's capital letters)….Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant…While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.” [p. 269]

All of this influenced John Quincy Adams into establishing the Federal Republic that this country has become.

[Semanticleo]

"Maybe it's the only way to deal with terrorists."

From your mouth to Bush's ears.

[lurker]

No, from your mouth to John Quincy Adam's ears, ali-cleown.

"He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE."

Using John Quincy Adams' words, ali-cleown and feaknik have been poisoned.

[boris]

Stuff it, you cowards.

'Arbeit macht frei'

From your mouth to Bush's ears.

Whiney little crybabies lost another one. Pouty tantrums are music to my ears.

[lurker]

Eurabia, by Bat Ye'or

She saw this coming to fruition as Oriani Fallaci did.

[PeterUK]

Semanticleo,

"

"So, waterboarding a terrorist makes us less free?"

No, 'Arbeit macht frei'.

You really must stop using that cranial enema.

[Tom Maguire]

I have finally been goaded into verifying something I have believed for years, and for you youngsters, I saw the skit live; as I recall, we spent the afternon watching the glaciers recede. Then, as the pterodactyls circled gracefully overhead, we went in to watch SNL... but I digress. The correct quote is "Jane, you ingnorant misguided slut".

Glad to have cleared that up. And obviously, that was a very different Jane.

As to slippery slope arguments that today we are using coercive interogation techniques on terrorists who are not even signatories to the Geneva Convention but tomorrow we will be torturing Howard Dean, Paul Krugman, Markos Zuniga, and any other of Bush's poltical opponents - what's the frequency, Kenneth?

[Semanticleo]

Enlighten us oh, Bohhisattva, what have we lost?

[lurker]

So President Adams violated national law as per:

"Ackowledging his earlier position of strict neutrality, while Secretary of State, Pappas makes clear how as President (perhaps under the influence of Lafayette), Adams came to support the Greek cause (Pappas, Paul C. The United States and the Greek War for Independence, 1821-1828, New York, 1985, pp. 125-126.):"

“The case of the Greek frigates demonstrated once again America’s benevolent neutrality toward Greece. Motivated no doubt by philhellenic zeal, the United States government came to the Greek’s rescue in violation of the nation’s law and the international laws of neutrality. President Adams and members of the cabinet and of Congress enthusiastically helped Contostavlos [the Greek national seeking warships for his country] and cooperated in passing swiftly and discreetly a bill authorizing the government to purchase one of the Greek frigates. The American government also cooperated in postponing the purchase of the frigate so that Contostavlos could deal with the houses, which refused to compromise on their high demands. And finally, when Contostavlos was ready to sail with the frigate Hope to Greece, President Adams temporarily put aside neutrality to allow an armed ship to sail out of New York with American officers and sailors…”

[boris]

what have we lost?

Besides your marbles?

[Semanticleo]

"tomorrow we will be torturing Howard Dean, Paul Krugman, Markos Zuniga, and any other of Bush's poltical opponents -"

Why is this man laughing?

[Semanticleo]

Besides your marbles?

A marble for your soul.

Oops. I overbid.

[lurker]

ali-cleown, if we do it you way, here is what would have happened to our country had President Adams NOT used his executive power and authority to violate national law and international law.

Our own country would be subjected to dhimmitude.

"Vacalopoulos describes how jihad imposed dhimmitude under Ottoman rule provided critical motivation for the Greek Revolution (Vacalopoulos, A.E. Background and Causes of the Greek Revolution, Neo-Hellenika, Vol. 2, 1975, pp.54-55):"

[quote="“The Revolution of 1821 is no more than the last great phase of the resistance of the Greeks to Ottoman domination; it was a relentless, undeclared war, which had begun already in the first years of servitude. The brutality of an autocratic regime, which was characterized by economic spoliation, intellectual decay and cultural retrogression, was sure to provoke opposition. Restrictions of all kinds, unlawful taxation, forced labor, persecutions, violence, imprisonment, death, abductions of girls and boys and their confinement to Turkish harems, and various deeds of wantonness and lust, along with numerous less offensive excesses – all these were a constant challenge to the instinct of survival and they defied every sense of human decency. The Greeks bitterly resented all insults and humiliations, and their anguish and frustration pushed them into the arms of rebellion. There was no exaggeration in the statement made by one of the beys if Arta, when he sought to explain the ferocity of the struggle. He said: ‘We have wronged the rayas [dhimmis] (i.e. our Christian subjects) and destroyed both their wealth and honor; they became desperate and took up arms. This is just the beginning and will finally lead to the destruction of our empire.’ The sufferings of the Greeks under Ottoman rule were therefore the basic cause of the insurrection; a psychological incentive was provided by the very nature of the circumstances.”"]Vacalopoulos describes how jihad imposed dhimmitude under Ottoman rule provided critical motivation for the Greek Revolution (Vacalopoulos, A.E. Background and Causes of the Greek Revolution, Neo-Hellenika, Vol. 2, 1975, pp.54-55):[/quote]

[PeterUK]

"Enlighten us oh, Bohhisattva, what have we lost?"

In case you hadn't noticed Septicmtwo rather tall buildings in New York.

[Rick Ballard]

Peter,

It's a stupid contest. Freak's got the edge on lack of style but Tic's really moving ahead on solid bonehead stupidity - no surprise there. It will probably be decided based upon technique in the compulsory inanity section but both have some freestyle dumb moves still to complete.

It's very close and the tension is [YAWN}, pardon me, mounting.

[Semanticleo]

Thanks, Marmalard

[Abdul Jamoke]

I'd pick waterboarding over reading Freak & Semen's comments.

[Sweetie]

I don't get how McCain can say torture doesn't work when the biographical (co-written by McCain I believe) film of his time spent in the Hanoi Hilton DEMONSTRATED that it did achieve it's intended purpose: getting prisoners to cop to various war crimes. It's largely true that the confessors lied in these confessions but that's off point - the NV could care less if the confessions reflected the prisoners true beliefs.

Waterboard them. If they know nothing they'll lie and we'll waste our time running down hundreds of false leads.....and one or more valid leads that head off a terrorist strike. The vast majority of our military aviators have been waterboarded. They seem none the worse for wear.

[lurker]

And both freak and ali-cleown are so stupid that they would have no problems living under Shari'a law.

Even back when President John Quincy Adams was alive, people...were forced to "“There is no God but Allah; and where once their prayers had been addressed to Christ, they were now to ‘Mohammed, the prophet of Allah.’"

As per:

A. E. Vacalopoulos summarized the devastating impact of five centuries of Seljuk and Ottoman jihad campaigns in Asian Minor and the Balkans (Vacalopoulos, A.E. Origins of the Greek Nation-The Byzantine Period, 1204-1461, New Brunswick, N.J., 1970, pp. 61, 68; 72-73):

“At the beginning of the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks forced their way into Armenia and there crushed the armies of several petty Armenian states. No fewer than forty thousand souls fled before the organized pillage of the Seljuk host to the western part of Asia Minor. From the middle of the eleventh century, and especially after the battle of Malazgirt [Manzikurt] (1071), the Seljuks spread throughout the whole Asia Minor peninsula, leaving error, panic and destruction in their wake. Byzantine, Turkish and other contemporary sources are unanimous in their agreement on the extent of havoc wrought an the protracted anguish of the local population…[The Greek chronicler] Kydones described the fate of the Christian peoples of Asia Minor thus:

‘The entire region which sustained us, from the Hellespont eastwards to the mountains of Armenia, has been snatched away. They [the Turks] have razed cities, pillaged churches, opened graves, and filled everything with blood and corpses…Alas, too, they have even abused Christian bodies. And having taken away their entire wealth they have now taken away their freedom, reducing them to the merest shadows of slaves. And with such dregs of energy as remain in these unfortunate people, they are forced to be the servitors of the Turk’s personal comforts.’

“From the time the Ottoman Turks first set foot in Thrace under Suleiman, son of Orchan, the Empire rapidly disintegrated….From the very beginning of the Turkish onslaught under Suleiman, the Turks tried to consolidate their position by the forcible imposition of Islam. [The Ottoman historian] Sukrullah [maintained] those who refused to accept the Moslem faith were slaughtered and their families enslaved. ‘Where there were bells’, writes the same author, ‘Suleiman broke them up and cast them onto fires. Where there are churches he destroyed them or converted them into mosques. Thus, in place of bells there were now muezzins. Wherever Christian infidels were still found, vassalage was imposed upon their rulers. At least in public they could no longer say ‘kyrie eleison’ but rather “There is no God but Allah; and where once their prayers had been addressed to Christ, they were now to ‘Mohammed, the prophet of Allah.’ ”

[lurker]

No matter what we do to these terrorists and they are released, then they still have the intent of killing us if they could not convert us to Islam.

[clarice]

Boris, the new position sounds like Dukakis'hypothetical response to his wife's rape carried to a global argument to me.

[boris]

One can almost hear the courage to die votes evaporating in the sunlight.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Leo: "Bodhisattva".

It really ruins your intellectual pretentions when you consistently misspell them.

[Semanticleo]

Colorado;
It really ruins your intellectual pretension
when you consistenly mistake typos for mispells.

[lurker]

No difference between typos and misspells!

Even ali-cleown doesn't know how to misspell!

[Semanticleo]

Lurker;

Just because you've suddenly discovered
History, I am not compelled to dumbdown
to your 19th century context.

[Semanticleo]

"Even ali-cleown doesn't know how to misspell!"

Your idiocy is only outdistanced by your ignorance.

[Rick Ballard]

Challenge him to a debate on his knowledge of Bodhisattva, Tic. You might be able to teach him something.

[lurker]

We should be giving thanks to John Quincy Adams for having the fortitude in establishing the Federal Republic for this country because of his full understanding of Jihad and Dhimmitude.

And, btw, the history of John Quincy Adams is certainly most applicable to today's GWOT; therefore, your so-called "19th Century Context" is smartup to today's events.

And you intentionally chose to ignore the history....

[lurker]

ali-cleown, your intentional ignorance, complicated by your idiocy, of the 19th century history will bite you back.

[Semanticleo]

"You might be able to teach him something."

That would qualify as an archetypal event,
Marmalard.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

More, perhaps, to the point: my running problem with the whole torture thing is the way the arguement trivializes the word. What happened to McCain in Vietnam is unquestionably torture. On the other hand, not having a private bathroom, around here, is called "dorm life", and some of the other "tortures" are called "lap dances" everywhere and cost $20 for one song.

I propose, as a rule, that anything we're willing to do to our own people in SERE class is not "torture" under the terms of the 3rd Common Convention.

Which, by the way, would include waterboarding as permissible.

[boris]

ok

[PeterUK]

Rick,
I must confess to a frisson of apathy at the Dolt's Handicap between Septic and Freakwit.
There should be a steward's inquiry,it looks like Septic has been connecting the bolts in her neck to the power supply again.

[Specter]

This has been fun to read. Freaky and Tic try to use history to prove a point. Lurker slams them with actualy interpretation. Then tic claims that using history isn't fair. Seems just like a democrat - no direction - just bouncing back and forth.

[Rick Ballard]

Charlie,

I agree that SERE training tactics could be the foundation of what is allowable. I think the every JAG lawyer should go through it prior to be allowed to comment on interrogation techniques. Lindsey Graham first - and perhaps repeatedly.

[Jane]

I saw the skit live

Me too, and that Jane went to Wellesley, where Hillary also went if I recall correctly.

I didn't remember the "misguided" part which is not surprising since it was the '70's and all that.

Did you also see the Claudine Longet invitational?