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September 02, 2006


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» The Bozos At The New York Times from Flopping Aces
Fitzgerald used his position to vindictively disparage the Bush administration. He knew who the originally leaker was from the start but decided to ignore the truth in his crusade against the Administration. If anyone should be up on the stand testif... [Read More]

» NY Times Turns On Fitzgerald from The Strata-Sphere
Special Prosecutor Fitz-Magoo (Fitzgergald) has had his staunchest ally, the NY Times, turn on him and now question his professionalism: An enduring mystery of the C.I.A. leak case has been solved in recent days, but with a new twist: Patrick J. Fitzge... [Read More]

» Question: Why Didn't Fitzgerald Name Armitage As The Leaker? from Ace of Spades HQ
Most of the outrage here seems directed at Armitage himself, allowing other people to twist in the wind, and go to jail (like Judith Miller), and be indicted on perjury charges (like Scooter Libby), while remaining silent about his crucial... [Read More]

» The New York Times on Richard Armitage Take 2 from KURU Lounge
Why was there an investigation? Even before Patrick Fitzgerald took up his role as a Special Prosecutor in this matter Armitage identity was apparently known... Both of these accounts idicate a willingness to (basically) lie, in order to preserve po... [Read More]


Patrick R. Sullivan

I see the Times is still clueless about the State Dept memo:

'Mr. Fitzgerald may also point out that Mr. Armitage knew about Ms. Wilson’s C.I.A. role only because of a memorandum that Mr. Libby had commissioned as part of an effort to rebut criticism of the White House by her husband, Joseph C. Wilson IV.'

Anyway, this morning on NPR I heard Daniel Schorr bemoaning what a huge disappointment the Plame thing was. He said it was supposed to be a big scandal for the neo-cons, but now it turns out to be all due to an assistant to Colin Powell.

Poor old codger.


Fitzgerald has a thing for politicians. His job as a DOJ criminal conspiracy investigator is to indict bad CIA and FBI agents. For whatever reason(he likes unions, he's a dem, he ....)he passed on doing his job. Tradition no longer exists. The DOJ cannot or will not indict bad CIA and FBI agents; Plame got away with alot and the other intelligence services and terrorists have been emolden to do whatever they like with little chance of being indicted, as long as they work with CIA or FBI. The problem, for most people outside the intelligence community, is that the bad CIA agent gets foreign nationals murdered on 'behalf' of the CIA agent. Terrorists really prefer to do this for politicians, but a bad agent will do fine.

When terrorists murder on your behalf, it's called a criminal conspiracy and needs to be investigated by DOJ. Fitz passed. CIA passed on Aimes until he got over thirty foreign nationals killed by their own people. At CIA this is acceptable and, now, apparently it's the same at DOJ.

The intelligence community originally meant the world's intelligence services. Now, this is supposed to mean the US intelligence community and this is sad because we have lost the ability to work with other intelligence services. This is an old argument and the bad agents might argue that it's okay as long as it's not an American. A criminal conspiracy is just that.

So, we lose here again and US agents and politicians will continue to agree that using a criminal conspiracy to kill foreign nationals is okay. We are losing our ability to work with other intelligence services and that's okay, too, because we are wrong. Terrorists? Why worry, they do a fine job for us. CIA moving to DIA? Why worry, it's, in effect, the end of military intelligence.

The hope was to keep Plame from the top US government officials, use the advisors. She has done irrevocable damage to the US government and the US intelligence community. Her goal was always to leak, the higher up the better; those terrorist just go right to work after 'Vanity Fair.'


Interesting how this is phrased in the story:

"He turned over his calendars, datebooks and even his wife’s computer in the course of the inquiry, those associates said."

Was that before or after Woordward made him come forward about their conversation?

P.S. I think there is a typo in the initial post:

For heavens sake, the AP discovered that the meeting with Novak was right there on Armitage's appointment calendar.

I think you meant Woodward rather than Novak.


empty wheel has a huge new canoe and is rowing furiously with leaps of theory is that Tenet is 1x2x6



It is a fine new post by EW, reviews all the reasons why it ain't over yet (a nice tonic to the pardon talk hereabouts).

I especially liked it as I've long been a booster of a strong role for Tenet in fighting the WH conspiracy to betray Plame.


Posted on the prior thread.


Jerry Jerry Jerry (Cary Grant accent)

You'd be much wiser to abandon the SS Conspiracy or you will be up Plame Creek without a paddle...

do yourself a favor and read Clarice :)


Okay...I'm robbing this from a wheely and selling to the highest bidder

The Nightmare before Fitzmas


I did read Clarice's latest, it's very Clarice-ish of course - a strong vision and opinion, much like Novak actually.

My comment would be that the Armitage/Woodward > Woodward/Libby >> (Wilson) >> Libby/Russert timeline got a little blurred there at the end, but that's a symptom of my conspiratorial bias in the Plame case.

I like that "Secret Agent Plame" song!



It's easy to find. The article is now featured at Lucianne.


WAIT, how can Tenet be 1x2x6, Jeff just explained to us that the distinction was 'changed" to "WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL" and Mike Allen certainly knows...are the EW's abandoning that now?


WAIT, how can Tenet be 1x2x6,

Jeff is in an undisclosed bunker reviewing all 10,000 of his posts and files trying to come up with a new unified theory

you do know that in the parallel universe up can be down and nuancing allows complete changes in direction right?


*******Jeff is in an undisclosed bunker reviewing all 10,000 of his posts and files trying to come up with a new unified theory****

Has anyone ever seen Jeff and Fitz in the same place at the same time?

Other Tom

Watching to see the order in which the rats leave this sinking ship is priceless. I don't know which is more fun: seeing the likes of Daniel Schorr, Bob Beckel and the Washington Post give up the ghost, or watching the remaining diehards tie themselves in knots trying to Keep Hope Alive.

Jerry, with your reliance on analysis by EW, you seem to be reluctant to jump. Fine by me; we can just lump you in with Keith Olbermann and Crazy Larry. And by the way: Bush has the power to pardon Libby any time he wants to. He can even do it over the objections of Empty Wheel.


Does anyone know how to check a site traffic even if said site does not have a site meter? Is there a website application thingy?


courtesy of Tigerhawk

*****Reporter David Johnston has raised a huge pile of stunningly obvious questions, and does not even have the good graces to tell us whether he can't or won't answer them. At whose behest did Armitage prepare that undelivered resignation letter? Did he do it on his own because he's a stand-up guy, did Powell suggest it, or State Department lawyers? Which State Department "officials" advised that a sudden departure could lead to the disclosure of his role in the leak? Was it Powell, top lawyer Taft, or Armitage's weight-lifting buddies? Were they giving this advice in Armitage's interest -- "you don't want to hurt your reputation" -- or were they making a threat -- "it would be so unfortunate if word got around that you were the criminal"? Given that Armitage went to the "authorities" (Johnston's word) immediately and without benefit of legal advice, why did the State Department care that Armitage's role in the leak might be disclosed? Armitage's leak was obviously non-criminal, and it wasn't as though senior State Department officials were worried that word would get out that they were talking to Bob Woodward. Colin Powell seems hardly to make a move in public life without Bob Woodward there to record his side of the story.******



Talk about whack jobs... they're circling the wagons over on>DU

"Actually, I think what happened in Katrina was actually a Bush SUCCESS!

Edited on Sat Sep-02-06 02:14 PM by Jackpine Radical
Everything went very well. A Democratic city in the deep south has been eliminated. The people WERE controlled, in that they were kept away from the Ownership class & dispersed. Sheltering, feeding & other humanitarian gestures were not high on the priority list."

Quick Jerry, they need some adult supervision! Maybe you can sing to them until they fall asleep... they'll like that new DU hit - Secret Agent Plame!

Sara (Squiggler)

I don't know how many times I've asked this question and never get an answer, so let's try one more time ... how do you pardon someone who has NOT been convicted of a crime? The Constitution guarantees we are innocent until proven guilty and I don't think there is a Presidential Pardon available for convictions by press rather than convictions in a court of law.

Seems to me that all this talk of a Bush pardon for Libby is way premature since Libby has as yet NOT been convicted of any crime. Seems that Bush's options would include firing Fitz and ordering the AG to dismiss all charges, but a pardon seems out of the question until after a trial and conviction.


Couple of thoughts - If someone mentioned this on another thread, I missed it.

Didn't GWB direct all the fed employees to cancel any secrete agreements with the press i.e. confidentiality agreements - such as Woodward says Armitage was holding over him?

Wouldn't the reported discussions between Armitage and his co-workers at State have violated the alleged request by fritz that he was not to discusses his testimony?

Remember fritz assertions that the DOJ could keep tabs on what was going on by reading material that was in the public record. Looks like fritz was refusing to report to his boss every time he demanded silence of the witnesses. Armitage – Novak Who else? (Didn’t Novak state at one time that he was “not allowed” to discuss his testimony – until fritz determined that he couldn’t hang Rove?) Looks like he wanted the secrecy of only the witnesses who had cast doubts on the assumption that the WH was leaking.



Ford Pardoned Nixon before he was ever charged with anything.



Someone can be pardoned for potential crimes connected with specific incidents. That's what Ford did when he pardoned Nixon. There were no formal criminal charges, but to prevent a criminal prosecution, Ford issued a pardon for any crimes that Nixon may have committed.

Sara (Squiggler)

Standards for Considering Pardon Petitions

In general, a pardon is granted on the basis of the petitioner's demonstrated good conduct for a substantial period of time after conviction and service of sentence. The [Justice] Department's regulations require a petitioner to wait a period of at least five years after conviction or release from confinement (whichever is later) before filing a pardon application (28 CFR Section 1.2). In determining whether a particular petitioner should be recommended for a pardon, the following are the principal factors taken into account.

1. Post-conviction conduct, character, and reputation. An individual's demonstrated ability to lead a responsible and productive life for a significant period after conviction or release from confinement is strong evidence of rehabilitation and worthiness for pardon. The background investigation customarily conducted by the FBI in pardon cases focuses on the petitioner's financial and employment stability, responsibility toward family, reputation in the community, participation in community service, charitable or other meritorious activities and, if applicable, military record. In assessing post-conviction accomplishments, each petitioner's life circumstances are considered in their totality: it may not be appropriate or realistic to expect "extraordinary" post-conviction achievements from individuals who are less fortunately situated in terms of cultural, educational, or economic background.

2. Seriousness and relative recentness of the offense. When an offense is very serious, (e.g., a violent crime, major drug trafficking, breach of public trust, or white collar fraud involving substantial sums of money), a suitable length of time should have elapsed in order to avoid denigrating the seriousness of the offense or undermining the deterrent effect of the conviction. In the case of a prominent individual or notorious crime, the likely effect of a pardon on law enforcement interests or upon the general public should be taken into account. Victim impact may also be a relevant consideration. When an offense is very old and relatively minor, the equities may weigh more heavily in favor of forgiveness, provided the petitioner is otherwise a suitable candidate for pardon.

3. Acceptance of responsibility, remorse, and atonement. The extent to which a petitioner has accepted responsibility for his or her criminal conduct and made restitution to its victims are important considerations. A petitioner should be genuinely desirous of forgiveness rather than vindication. While the absence of expressions of remorse should not preclude favorable consideration, a petitioner's attempt to minimize or rationalize culpability does not advance the case for pardon. In this regard, statements made in mitigation (e.g., "everybody was doing it," or I didn't realize it was illegal") should be judged in context. Persons seeking a pardon on grounds of innocence or miscarriage of justice bear a formidable burden of persuasion.

4. Need for Relief. The purpose for which pardon is sought may influence disposition of the petition. A felony conviction may result in a wide variety of legal disabilities under state or federal law, some of which can provide persuasive grounds for recommending a pardon. For example, a specific employment-related need for pardon, such as removal of a bar to licensure or bonding, may make an otherwise marginal case sufficiently compelling to warrant a grant in aid of the individual's continuing rehabilitation. On the other hand, the absence of a specific need should not be held against an otherwise deserving applicant, who may understandably be motivated solely by a strong personal desire for a sign of forgiveness.

5. Official recommendations and reports. The comments and recommendations of concerned and knowledgeable officials, particularly the United States Attorney whose office prosecuted the case and the sentencing judge, are carefully considered. The likely impact of favorable action in the district or nationally, particularly on current law enforcement priorities, will always be relevant to the President's decision. Apart from their significance to the individuals who seek them, pardons can play an important part in defining and furthering the rehabilitative goals of the criminal justice system.


I went over to EW to see what was being said. Facts are ignored to make their new conspiracy work. Armitage told Woodward, something that isn't addressed over there, about Plame on June 12. That is an important fact to leave out, as the NYTs also noted (I believe they left it out on purpose, they would have had to explain that Armitage was silent about being the 1st leaker long before his Novak conversation).


Here's a goodie.



A DOJ pardon described in your post is a completely diferent animal from a Presidential pardon as described in the U S Constitution.

Sara (Squiggler)

It seems the only way a pardon could be considered is if Libby was willing to first plead guilty and then a pardon could follow five years down the road. There are cases where pardons have been refused because the defendant refused to plead guilty. I wouldn't plead guilty to any crime I didn't commit, even if it meant I had to take my chances and get convicted. I just couldn't do it and keep my self respect. I don't think Fitz has a snow balls chance in hell in getting a conviction here, so why would Libby plead guilty?

George Bush needs to put a stop to this witch hunt by firing Fitz and having the DOJ dismiss/drop all charges against Libby.



That is the standard for evaluating Pardon petitions (and even in those guidlines there are a couple of qualifiers such as "In gereral" and "principle factors". That's not the situation here. The president has the power to pardon who ever he want's even if they haven't been charged yet. Now, I imagine that Libby would make your argument, that he doesn't need a pardon because he is innocent and can prove it in court, but a pardon would simply shut down the prosectuation by preventing the court from finding judgement.

Here is the relevent text of Ford's pardon of Nixon:

"As a result of certain acts or omissions occurring before his resignation from the Office of President, Richard Nixon has become liable to possible indictment and trial for offenses against the United States...

Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974."

bold added.

Sara (Squiggler)

Sid, there are laws governing how pardons work today: "General regulations regarding the submission, consideration and award of pardons are set down in Title 28 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 1.1-1.10."


Sara, listen to Sid. He's right. The president can issue a pardon or he can fire Fitz and dismiss the case. I vote for the latter because a pardon carries with it some hint of wrongdoing, but frankly, either one works for me as a means of seeing that the injustice stops.

The Dude

Great work as usual from Tom, Clarice, et al... Fitz needs to DO TIME. This is not a mistake. He has covered up for hillary with the Muslims. He has covered up for Bill c. in the 911 debacle. What he did here was criminal. He had two letters of authority to conduct the investigation. Someone obstructed Armitige from revealing information. Fitz knew from day one but continued for almost 3 years. He had more than one grand jury which suggested he was overworked at the time. Bush should ORDER AG to condct a full investigation into this entire mess. He should fire Fitz, Armitge, all lawyers who consulted with Armitige who are US employees, etc... There is no "high road" here. bush has to fight back.

Sara (Squiggler)

The whole idea behind the Nixon pardon was that there was no way Nixon could enjoy due process as things stood. There was no way for him to get a fair trial "for years" as Ford said. Once he left office, there was no way for him to have access to the material he would need to provide a defense, among other reasons.


Thanks, Dude. Could you clarify what you meant whenyou said Fits had two letters of authority?


I'm surprised that the Plame investigation is still open. I had thought that after Rove was cleared Fitzgerald would announce the end of his investigation. That fool just can't let go.

I agree with clarice on pardon versus closure of the case. I want the one that causes the left and Fitzgerald the most sting, that is more of a slap in the face.

One thing I've noticed, we haven't been subjected lately to articles about Fitz being the smartest man in the room, his integrity, how wonderful he is.

He totally signed on to Wilson's narrative, the poor abused whistleblower.



If your question is, 'can the president pardon someone who hasn't been convicted' the answer is yes. If you question is, 'would this pardon fall within the normal proceedures', then the answer is no. Just because it doesn't meet the DoJ guidlines does not mean it is not legally valid (Clinton proved that with Marc Rich).


What if, instead of investigating who leaked Valerie Plame's name, Fitz was instead investigating who leaked classified NIE information? Wouldn't that explain why Armitage was not charged with anything?


(Didn’t Novak state at one time that he was “not allowed” to discuss his testimony – until fritz determined that he couldn’t hang Rove?)

Yes, and he was only cut loose AFTER Rove was.

Sara (Squiggler)

I understand that Ranger, but why would Libby want that type of pardon? It confers guilt on him that would stay with him for the rest of his life. Bush is on the record as saying he would NOT follow the Clinton/Rich model but would follow the guidelines. When there are other avenues open, I don't think Bush is going to go back on his word on the pardon criteria he plans to follow in his administration.



The presidential power to pardon is granted under Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution.

"The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

No standards, and only one limitation -- no pardons for the impeached.__________

No regulations can change this.


Sara, not getting trapped into a long discussion on this, but it is obvious in context that the president was referring to post-conviction pardons, not a pardon like this.

JM Hanes


Maybe jerry thinks this is the creek. He's too polite to say it though.

Unlike others we could name on both sides of the stream, jerry doesn't do ad hominems, which is all the more remarkable considering the number & nature of the potshots launched in his direction. He's also got a sense of humor, which is a rare distinction on the left!

And who knows, one of these Friday Nights (Live!), jerry may give Soylent Red a real run for the moeny!

JM Hanes

**make that "money" of course**


I'm sure I'm out of the mainstream on this, but my favorite mean-spirited, self righteous, partisan hatchet man in this whole affair remains Lawrence O'Donnell. His trumpeting of that gnostic list in his coat pocket of the 22 Republican criminals Fitz was going to indict any second now was a thing to behold. Wielding his secret knowledge like an Indulgence from the Pope to carte blanche scream "liar" at his opponents from the MSNBC Pulpit, he displayed a partisan vindictiveness in this Witchhunt I find hard to beat. He's my choice for top Torquemada, and earns the prize for a new high in low.

Sara (Squiggler)

Clarice, I understand the president CAN do it, I just don't think he will or should, for Libby's sake, if not his own. There are other ways to accomplish the same thing that are within the president's power.



I think you're asking one question in the form of a different question. It is clear the president has the power to do this, the question is should he use that power. I can be talked either way. I would save Libby a lot of money and let him get back to his life, but it would always leave the cloud of guilt as you say. I think that if the president did pardon Libby, he should do it in a speech that takes the press to task for how it completely failed to tell the real story on this, and should also initiate some form of formal investigation into Fitz's conduct of the investigation. I doubt any of that will take place though.


Please forgive the dumb question from the peanut gallery, but am hoping to understand: why is this not Malicious Prosecution and/or Abuse of Process?


It would be better if Fitz will simply drop the case altogether with an explanation that he screwed up than Bush pardoning Libby or firing Fitz. If Bush fired Fitz, the leftwing MSM would be all over Bush.


The left could be all over Bush if he pardoned Libby, but they would only highlight their own biased and sloppy reporting.

Bush should welcome this fight. It's one he could win. He's right on all the facts.


Bush has to be very careful about how he proceeds in concluding this investigation. We all know the MSM is continuing to do their piss-poor job of actually uncovering who said what to whom, and when and where and why. To honestly answer those questions would be to contribute to destroying their own credibility while simultaneously exhonerating an Administration they viscerally loathe. My guess is that they've already got the knives out, and are dying to use their entire assets 24/7 to paint whatever solution (Pardon, etc) that Bush comes up with, as a second conspiracy rivaling the first, in conservative cronyism, illegitimate executive privilage, scoff-lawing etc, that they can continue to spoon feed to a gullible public through their mouthpieces and megaphones. If I were them, that's how I'd try to turn this MSM debacle into Left Wing victory.

Sara (Squiggler)

I suppose GWB could follow his father's example:

Bush said Weinberger -- who had been scheduled to go on trial in Washington January 5 on charges related to Iran-Contra -- was a "true American patriot," who had served with "distinction" in a series of public positions since the late 1960s.

"I am pardoning him not just out of compassion or to spare a 75-year-old patriot the torment of lengthy and costly legal proceedings, but to make it possible for him to receive the honor he deserves for his extraordinary service to our country," Bush said in a proclamation granting executive clemency.

The president also pardoned five other persons who already had pleaded guilty or had been indicted or convicted in connection with the Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages investigation. They were Elliott Abrams, a former assistant secretary of state for Inter-American affairs; former National Security Adviser Robert McFarlane; and Duane Clarridge, Alan Fiers, and Clair George, all former employees of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Explaining those pardons, Bush said the "common denominator of their motivation -- whether their actions were right or wrong -- was patriotism." They did not profit or seek to profit from their conduct, Bush said, adding that all five "have already paid a price -- in depleted savings, lost careers, anguished families -- grossly disproportionate to any misdeeds or errors of judgment they may have committed."


"Yesterday, a senior administration official said that before Novak's column ran, two top White House officials called at least six Washington journalists and disclosed the identity and occupation of Wilson's wife. ...Clearly, it was meant purely and simply for revenge," the senior official said of the alleged leak." Washington Post, September 28, 2003

It's too bad Mike Allen & Dana Priest won't share with us who provided the above anonymous quote. It would be too funny if it was Mr. Armitage. It wasn't until October 1st that he supposedly clued in that he was Novak's source.

Also, was Armitage's role shared with the Grand Jury when they deliberated over Libby?


"General regulations regarding the submission, consideration and award of pardons are set down in Title 28 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 1.1-1.10."

Perfect candidate for a signing statement, no?


Somebody should point this out to the ABA.

JM Hanes


"Title 28 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 1.1-1.10."

Ford's pardon of Nixon was, and to some extent remains, controversial for the very sort of reasons you suggest, as do others of that ilk, but legal.

In general, Federal Regulations are regarded as if they have the force of law, but when push really comes to shove -- as we discovered in the challenge to Comey's appointment of Fitzgerald! -- there is a substantive difference between the two. That's why the remedy to Fitzgerald's conduct ultimately rests with Congress.

In any case, those regulations govern the process for petitioners. They do not govern the President, who could change them at will by executive order, if he chose to do so. Not that he would, because clearly someone needs to wade through and assess the merit of what I suspect is still a mountain of applications which fall within the guidelines. Pardons initiated by the President, rather than the petitioner, however, would be a horse of a different color.

I certainly agree, that in an ideal world, most folks would prefer a finding of Not Guilty. Libby would be weighing the enormous costs, financially, professionally, and psychologically of soldiering on -- with no guarantee that either judge or jury will ultimately find in his favor -- against a pardon, which given the facts in this case, would in itself represent a sort of public vindication.

Like you, however, I don't see the President doing it. I think it would be a better move politically than shutting Fitzgerald down, (imperial presidency! rule of law! yada, yada), which is why I don't think he'll do that either. You never know though. The universe may shift after the mid-terms.


If DOJ had found the "leaker", why the special prosecutor? Did the AJ think that prosecution of Armatige was a political "hot potato" since he was "thought" not to be political? I don't get the reason for the appointment if DOJ knew the ID of the leaker.


Bush should welcome this fight. It's one he could win. He's right on all the facts.

I'm with you on this Kate. Altho he should wait until after the November elections, and then he should do it by proclaimation.


It's too bad Mike Allen & Dana Priest won't share with us who provided the above anonymous quote. It would be too funny if it was Mr. Armitage. It wasn't until October 1st that he supposedly clued in that he was Novak's source.

my vote's for chatty Kathy too....much more plausible than Tenet.


Maybe jerry thinks this is the creek. He's too polite to say it though.

Jerry has every right to an opinion and receives his potshots cheerfully :)



The DOJ did not know Armitage was the leaker. They were only told that the DOS was cooperating with the investigation.

Also, fitz didn't tell anyone to keep mum until he actually was the prosecutor which didn't happen for three months after Armitage had his revelation.


Sly,Sue & SBW
Just left comment to answer you
on last thread.
Hard to keep up with all the comments and the links provided with dial-up!!
Powerline had great post yesterday on the DCCC paying less than MINIMUN WAGE to workers going out to canvass for Dem Congressional candidates running on raising the minimum wage!!!
That's a saver!
Now to reading this new thread.



He's taling about Rumsfeld - so far
no questions to him about Wilson.

He has the balls to talk about Rumsfeld's errors in reporting Iraq

How can errors & reporting
ever be spoken by this man????

Cliff May is opposing Corn on the Rumsfeld kerfluffel.

Corn has on his super serious, I's am intellectual face! LOL!!!


Corn ended with accusing the
Repubs of

Can you imagine.

The Dude

I don't have the actual links but they were in the Libby indictment paperwork in pdf form on Fitzgeralds site. he got a letter from dAG Comley to conduct the Investigation. I believe this was in 12/03. A few months later he was given another letter of authority to expand his investigation into obstruction, perjury, et al...
This has been on several sites this weekend. i looked it up and it seems really strange. No investigation needed if they already knew. Fitz not needed to look into obstruction. AG could have done that and handled for much less money and time. Seems someone was leading fitz to Libby and ONLY Libby. Armitige committed a crime by NOT notifying Bush/Powell/Counsel. He isn't charged with anything despite the notes on his calendar.



Isn't the FBI part of DOJ?

JM Hanes


Maher earned his stripes by being outrageous; I don't think he was ever really all that funny. His big problem now, is that it's tough to be politically incorrect when there's not much left of your audience but the choir. On the flip side, I'd have to say that I find the kind of message David Warner delivers in Doing the Enemy's Work over at Real Clear Politics far more appalling than any of Maher's calculated offenses.

JM Hanes

Oops. Sorry, wrong thread!


Someone had very specific people they wanted charged. Libby, Rove, Hadley, Cheney. In fact, the rumor was that five official would be charged in October. I forget who the fifth was.

These were the people Wilson wanted charged. But there were others pushing this besides Wilson. One of the only sources named by Leopold was an FBI investigator who had retired. He was very keen about an indictment of Rove last spring.

The investigation by FBI, DOJ, and Fitz was clumsy and biased. Would be nice to know how that got started and why it continued and who was key in pushing it.

JM Hanes


Gonzales & the White House didn't know it was Armitage, but the DoJ did because that's where Armitage went to confess. In fact, now that I think of it, I'm not sure Isikoff & Corn have told us who Armitage ultimately met with when he (secretly) turned himself in. I'd sure like to find out!


I think it is important to realize how much the initial 2x6 report in the WaPo sent the entire investigation off on 'a conspiracy in the White House track.' Before that story, all anyone wanted to know was who told Novak, but the 2x6 story made it look like the Novak leaker was a latecomer, and that the "first leaker" was in the White House. That is why you get a Special Counsel even after Armitage comes forward about talking to Novak and why I think the 2x6 leak was specificly designed to protect Armitage before he came forward.


Have you heard back from Mr. Johns(t)on?


Ranger-that's a good theory. And we believe the source of the 1x2x6 story was Grossman, another State official.

We know Grossman was a friend of Wilson's, do we know of his relationship with Armitage.

I remember at some point the Novak leak was downplayed because it was later in the time line.

And Fitz was so focused on Rove/Libby being the bad guys that the didn't even think to ask Armitage who else he talked to. Or if he did, Armitage didn't remember.


Its pretty clear that EARLY, EARLY ON, probably on his first week, Fitz knew he had NO IIPA or classified leak crimes so he went back to Comey to save his investigation and status as a 'special prosecutor'.

To think Fitz knew from day 1 that Armitage:

- Was the original source of the leak.
- Wasn't part of a conspiracy to hurt a whistleblower.
- Hadn't even told anyone in the White House.

He needed perjury/obstruction of his completed investigation in order to not close shop the first week.

He could have very easily the first week said: There was no crime here, some people may have either mispoken or lied to the investigators but I'm turning that over to DOJ. See ya.


Oooh, Ranger, sneaky.
2x6 on September 28 and Armitage realizes its him on October 1.

Do you all think it was really a "I suddenly realized I was Novak's source" moment, or more of a "I suddenly realized Novak could drop enough hints that someone might suspect me" moment?

I'm going with the latter.


It is ironic that if the special prosecutor law had been in effect, the court may have told Fitz to go pound sand and wrap up his invesigation that quickly turned into a WHICH HUNT (That's WHICH Bush staffer can I hit with obstruction).

But Fitz had his best bud Comey to do his bidding. Just why didn't Comey recuse himself due to his friendship with Fitz?
Why didn't he question whether a crime was even committed by the leaker?

JM Hanes


Here's my new Unified Theory (LOL, BTW), which occurred to me when musing about Grossman, who has always seemed something of a cipher.

Grossman's positioning suddenly begins to make sense if you take as your premise one simple idea: Grossman, and a lot of other players here, thought that John Kerry was going to win the '04 election!


Of course, if you had a reporter who had already pissed you off part of this game too, why not yank yer chain?


I may be having another one of my spells, where I think I read something and later can't find it, but didn't State have someone at the meeting in Feb 2002 where Wilson was tagged to go to Niger?


I see Sweetness and Light is bothered most by the same passage I am:
[To my mind this is the most damning revelation yet. Why on earth would Patrick Fitzgerald tell Armitage to keep quiet about being the leaker? Robert Novak never understood why his source would not come forward and put an end to this preposterous charade.

The goal of a prosecutor is to get at the truth. Not to abuse his position to entrap others and to help propagate a smear campaign by the opposition party. For this act alone, Fitzgerald should face disbarment and probably jail time.]

Fitzgerald's theory is that Libby lied because he knew he was in trouble, and he knew he was in trouble because the President had said anyone that did this and broke a law would be fired. Therefore, Libby lied because he broke the law.

Yet Fitzgerald stopped the man that did this from going to the President, which eventually put more pressure on Libby as he realized he was in the cross-hairs. Which is why I think he started speaking gobbeldy gook (or maybe even lying, who knows?)- because he hadn't taken it seriously at first (who did? not Armitage), and then realized Fitzgerald was looking at *him*.

If Libby had known he wasn't suspected (falsely) of being the leaker, Libby would have reacted differently. Calmly, like Armitage did- because Armitage knew his boss had his back.


"Grossman, and a lot of other players here, thought that John Kerry was going to win the '04 election!"

I agree,it was obvious from the start,they were all positioning themselves for a Kerry administration,they are in politics,they have no more loyalty than an alley cat.


Sue- per the SSCI:

Page 40 of the SSCI says:
***(U) On February 19, 2002, CPD hosted a meeting with the former ambassador,
intelligence analysts from both the CIA and INR, and several individuals from the DO's Africa
and CPD divisions. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the merits of the former
ambassador traveling to Niger. An INR analyst's notes indicate that the meeting was "apparently
convened by [the former ambassador's] wife who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his
contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue." The former ambassador's wife told
Committee staff that she only attended the meeting to introduce her husband and left after about
three minutes.****

so yes, State had someone there.


On February 19, 2002, CPD hosted a meeting with the former ambassador, intelligence analysts from both the CIA and INR, and several individuals from the DO's Africa and CPD divisions. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the merits of the former ambassador traveling to Niger. An INR analyst's notes indicate that the meeting was "apparently convened by [the former ambassador's] wife who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue." The former ambassador's wife told Committee staff that she only attended the meeting to introduce her husband and left after about three minutes.

I was correct. So someone at State (INR) knew Wilson was the envoy, before the memo.


Sue- I'm glad I typed that slowly enough for you to understand. ;-)


And all during the run up to the war, Wilson was calling State, trying to get them to 'listen' to him. I. Am. Not. Buying. What. They. Are. Selling. State knew who Wilson was, before any memo was issued. State knew who Plame was, before any memo was issued. She was transitioning to State at this time. Probably into INR or as it is more correctly known...Bureau of Intelligence and Research. Someone besides Libby told Miller about Plame. Libby knew she was CIA and he wouldn't have said Bureau.


Yeah, I don't think I understand how the *only* way for Armitage to have known about the Plame-Wilsons was via a memo "commissioned" by Libby.
There were several paths by which he could have learned it.

Now my memory is going, but isn't Libby supposed to have learned Plame was covert via a State Dept person? Isn't that Grossman's story, that he told Libby? Or do I need to go back to bed?


Me too! I'm a slow reader, doncha know! ::grin::

What a tool. If the only way you can argue with your commenters is to call them names, give it up! If your argument won't stand without belittling your commenters, give it up! That is a Larry Johnson tactic and I notice EW cites him. Birds of a feather...


Bureau of Intelligence and Research. Someone besides Libby told Miller about Plame. Libby knew she was CIA and he wouldn't have said Bureau.**

SUE!!! You are brilliant!!!!



I'm there with you on that. I thought that was the story. Grossman told Libby. I'm getting my facts crossed though, so I'm not standing tall on this one. If in fact Grossman told Libby, why was Libby asking State? Why not CIA?


Yeah Sue, that's how I remember it. Then there's this:

An INR analyst's notes indicate that the meeting was "apparently convened by [the former ambassador's] wife who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue."

The WIFE apparantly convened the meeting according to the guy at STATE. So State KNEW about Val from the beginning. They didn't need a briefing from Tenet to find out. All Armitage (et al) needed to do was call his own people.


And of course that's exactly what they did when all the "former ambassador" stuff started popping up.



No I'm not. I'm a wingnut who can't read. ::grin::

But thanks anyway. I'm sure someone else has already figured that out. I'm usually a day late and a dollar short...



I think Jeff will argue that the INR notes were written after we knew who Valerie was. Before the SSIC hearings.


So since Sir Armitage was an innocent little leaker who didn't even realize what he said to Novak, doesn't that make David Corn the original intent leaker?

Wasn't David Corn the first to proclaim Plame an undercover agent, and didn't he do it in order to attack the White House.
And wasn't Corn's source none other then Joe Wilson.

Shouldn't Joe Wilson have told Corn, please don't publish, this might have been an accident and may blow over...rather then steering corner into a White House/Cheney office conspiracy.


If in fact Grossman told Libby, why was Libby asking State? Why not CIA?

Well, and why would Libby know that she was covert and not Armitage? Why does it make more sense that Armitage's department told Libby she was covert, but forgot to tell the boss?
Of course, I use the words know and covert very loosely.

And yes, Sue, that Bureau bit is brilliant.


So Corn was sooo driven by Bush hatred BDS, he outed the CIA agent thinking he was attacking Cheney/Rove when really he was destroying Plame's career.

Shouldn't she be suing Corn boy..


What truly underlies all of this is that everyone involved has abused trusts and their own pledges and oaths expressed or implied.

Will leave it to one of talented writers/lawyers on this site to hopefull make a list of these, some, in my NAL thinking, actual crimes and other abuses which again in my NAL mind, appropriate cause for civil suits.

I imagine that it is with this all swirling about and adding in GW & Rumsfeld speeches kerfluffle, new threats from Iran and the silence from "moderate" Islam regarding the at gunpoint conversion of Centanni and Wiig. Think of the outcry "can't establish Democracy at the POINT OF A GUN" that the LSM
opinion people love to echo and they are silent on this.

I therefore stand by my posts regarding Maher last night. Yes we know his record, his idiocy and all of that. But here he used the actual words that are said to convert. Rather shows how no pledge of any kind means anything on that side, if nothing else.

We have no problem comming down on Coulter's head when we think that she has "jumped the shark" even for her.

Well, to me Maher has "jumped the shark" even for him and for the wacko left. And Mary Katherin Berry being his "laughing bitch" just iced the cake.

I will now stop with the Maher -
except that CNN had ad that he is on Larry King tonight - don't think it is live but if it is, I hope some Muslims call in!


And who says Armitage didn't know Plame was a covert/classified agent. According to the source
..."Ford recalls Armitage said he had "slipped up" and had told Novak more that he should have. """"

Armitage SLIPPED UP? Doesn't sound like he didn't know, if he didn't know she was classified/covert, then there was no
'slip up'.

Which is it? He didn't know and said it innocently, or he did know and he SLIPPED UP??


Yeah Sue, but must we just depend on notes? The INR person who attended the meeting knew about Val's role before any "notes" for the SSIC were necessary. And then there was that memo where she stated her "husband" would be ideal for the job. Would the INR person have seen that?

Say you were that person, and someone gave you a call from the office of the big boss trying to get to the bottom of the stuff appearing in the WaPo and NYT. Would you tell them what you know? Would it have to be in memo form, or could it be just a little informal chat? How would you trace a conversation like that?

By the way, the jibberish about Val's boss making her write that memo about Joe is so much hooey. There is absolutely no reason on earth that she would be required (or that it would be necessary) to do that, unless she was indeed involved. Joe went in 1999, and they knew exactly who he was.

Sara (Squiggler)

Everyone who was at that Feb 2002 meeting would know, everyone who had any part in planning or authorizing the trip would know and all these people would know long long before any memo was written or any inquiries would have been made by Libby to State. At least it seems that is the way it would be to me.


I think it is a hoot, that the left wing press so loved:

1. Colin Powell - who was behind the big Iraq has WMD lie he cooked up with George Tenet and Bill Clinton.

2. Richard Armitage outed a covert CIA agent in hopes of most likely getting her killed and getting Rove, or maybe even Cheney blamed for it.

So the two BIG Bush scandals turned out to be two of the biggest lefties in the current adminstration.

And the third scandal, the TANG was also cooked up by lefties.


Since the AP was able to obtain Armitage's calendar with a FOIA request, could you not also obtain Powell's calendar? I sure would like to know who he was chatting with during this same time period.


I need a lawyer! How was the AP able to obtain something that was in evidence through a FOIA request?


Here is the timeline of stories leading up to Armitage's coming forward as far as I can tell.

26 Sept. - CIA referral of the leak to DoJ hits the news.

28 Sept. - 2x6 story appears in WaPo which specifily states that the Novak leak was after a first wave of phone calls from the White House.

1 Oct. - Novak "No partisan gunsliger" response to 2x6 story.

Now we ask, who's interests are served by planting the 2x6 story that specificly states the Novak leak was a seperate event and not the "first leak?"

Clearly, the answer is Armitage as a person and State as an institution. If the Novak leak were investigated as the "first leak" and Armitage at State was identified as the leaker, then State would have been turned upside down looking for how he found out about Plame and who else in state knew and might have talked. 2x6 took care of all that problem by making the Novak leak look "insignificant" compared the the "White House conspiracy."

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