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October 04, 2006

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DRF

The drive by media has declared war
against Republicans and conservatives.
The drive by media is going to lose.

larwyn

Must add these links to Corn's post - not to be missed.

Mastergate..VanderLeun on David Corn

David Corn:

I have a copy. I'm not going to publish it. For one, I don't know for a fact that the men on the list are gay. And generally I don't fancy outing people--though I have not objected when others have outed gay Republicans, who, after all, work for a party that tries to limit the rights of gays and lesbians and that welcomes the support of those who demonize same-sexers.
You'd be hard pressed to find a statement that more sums up the proposition that "The end justifies the means." Corn's subtext is, of course, 'I'm not going to publish it, because I don't have to. Now that you folks in the media know there's a list, you can go and find it from someone less moral than I am. Please write or call if you'd like a pointer. Strictly on the QT, off-the-record, and very hush-hush.' A morally aware person with a respect for the privacy of a fellow human being's sexuality would not write about such a list at all. Case closed. But I don't look for any real moral awareness to rise from the reactionary spear carrieers of the party of "post-modern moral certitude and relativistic rectitude." It's just another example of the extremes of the Democratic Party going after the blood of the moderates, Democrat or Republican, straight or, in this instance, gay. ....VanderLeun (bolding mine)

I just wish that Gerard would drop by American Digest more often.


Ace gets the interviews w/ Mike Rogers,John Avarosis and even David Corn LOL

Left Seeks "Conversion Camps" To Change Gays' Orientation
With the mantra "Hate the sin, love the sinner," left suggests re-educating Republican gays to embrace "God's Plan" of passionate fidelity to the gay left and Democratic Party

W A S H I N G T O N -- John Avarosis of AmericaBlog refuses to discuss whether gay Republicanism is a true "mental disorder" or simply an inborn orientation.....

[....]
On Glenn Greenwald:

"Note that he was once a moral degenerate himself," Avarosis says proudly. "And yet now he has embraced morality, and condemns 'hedonism' in language so stridently you'd think he was inspired by the Lord Him(?)self." Avarosis also notes that Glenn Greenwald is only one of "dozens" of ex-Republican-gays who have now embraced a more Godly politics, offering other names of former Republican gays, such as Rick Ellensburg, Thomas Ellers, Ellison, Wilson, and Sam Matthews. Each of them, Avarosis says, can offer a life story precisely identical to Greenwald's.

Hubris author David Corn calls the ex-Gay-Republican movement, sometimes called "XGR," "a good idea whose time has come." "I have no problem with what gay Republicans do in the privacy of their own bedrooms," he says. "But when I see a gay wearing an American flag lapel-pin, or a 'W' sticker on the back of their cars, I can't help but be a little bit nauseated. It's one thing to have these inclinations, it's another thing entirely to parade them around in public."

Savers. RTWT

clarice feldman

THANKS YOU, TM--That is a brilliant post.

Could Corn get any sleazier? I can't imagine how.

vnjagvet

It is now being reported that the correspondent with Foley was 18 at the time of most, if not all of the offending instant messages and is now 21. He was also an ex page when the exchange of messages took place.

That may put a crimp in the oh-so-earnest "for the children" Dem talking points.

Rick Ballard

An excellent piece Tom. My only question concerns what actual evidence might exist that any of those whom you mention have ever acted in an ethical manner. I've seen none and have no such expectations. Every one of them is simply gas given off by the rotting corpse of the Democratic party. As the corpse decays, the stench grows worse.

Chris Finney, Esq.

BBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
You righty kooks make me laugh!! Hastert is toast, Reynolds top aid resigned today and threw Big Denny under a truck as he left. Hastert is holding a news conference is Chicago tomorrow and odds are that he is resigning.

You thugs and morons are completely and utterly fucked! Welcome to The October Surprise; this time it's ours, and you are taking up the ass. Enjoy it.

ghostcat

Hey, Chrissie. Hope you brought along plenty of K-Y. Yer gonna need it.

Rick Ballard

You're a credit to your party Finney. When you wake up Nov 8th wondering what happened - take a look in the mirror.

BTW

"My only question concerns what actual evidence might exist that any of those whom you mention have ever acted in an ethical manner."

Look hurry everyone. A republican used the word ethics!

Nooooo not.. you're you're kidding. The same republicans that advocated a preemptive war to preempt nothing? Those republicans?

Yep that's the ones. And they're slamming the media too!

No, you mean their media?

Yep.

Are they eating their young yet?

BTW

Well I wouldn't really call it eating.

Don

21 Americans have been killed in Iraq since Foley resigned. No one's counting Iraqis.

Southside

Why do I get the feeling that if you visited Finney's home town you would see his/her mug on some ad on the side of a bus. "Call this 800 # for the law offices of Howard, Finney and Howard."

BTW

WP 10/4/06: "President Bush has begun reassuring audiences that this traumatic period in Iraq will be seen as "just a comma" in the history books."

A comma?

Yeh, He was hoping for a page but Foley wont share.

BTW

"21 Americans have been killed in Iraq since Foley resigned. No one's counting Iraqis."

That's because the repugs think that American pain is the only pain that matters. Keep sending the world that message and the world is going to kick our butts (or have they already decided to do so?).

Don

Re: comma. Bush is such a douchebag; Pierce put it best:

"The "serial comma," ... is back in vogue with grammarians (as it should be). Here is an example:

'According to the Department of Defense, Aaron Seal, Chase Haag, Justin Peterson, Denise Lannaman, Christopher Consgrove III, Mario Nelson, Joe Narvaez, Michael Oremus, Satieon Greenlee -- comma -- and eight other members of the United States military were killed this week in Iraq.'


Hope that helps.

--Charles P. Pierce

clarice feldman

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10452

Dems worried their subject to the same claims.

TexasToast

Wonder of wonders - I agree with Clarice twice in one day. Excellent post.

Who ever posts "the list" is crossing the nuclear threshold and participating in an amazingly stupid act - and of course both sides will blame the other. Ugh.

Its just wrong. The idea that the party affiliation of gays should make any difference is gross.

What is really sad is both sides have a "motive". The Rs motive is making the whole Foley mess a fight about gays and the ex-GOP gays (per Corn) is the zeal of the converted against the heretic. People who are dead solid certain they are right scare me to death. They don't seem to recognize limits in their pursuit of the pure. No democrat with any brains wants to see any such list see the light of day.

I think we will probably have to agree to disagree about who is desperate enough right now to push the red button, to borrow your metaphor mangler. Their is apparently some real fear floating about.

You are also right about Schmidt's piece. I distrust over simplified moral "absolutes". Things are usually not simple in real life - even thought they are often made to seem that way for political purposes. I have worked out in my own mind that the leadership had and has a duty to protect the pages from either a Foley or a Stubbs, but that can happen without the death penalty, so to speak. In the absense of a crime, I have a problem with a remedy by the House in either case beyond censure of the Congressman. Let the voters do the removing. Any other action disenfranchises them. Apparently the House also had a problem with removing members, as Bob Ney is still serving after pleading guilty to a crime.

Toby Petzold

The past several days of Big Media's coverage of this Foley crapola are all the evidence one needs of an anti-trust violation against the average American news consumer. Everything about it has been an abuse: an abuse of terms (e.g., the characterization of a middle-aged man merely hitting on a 17 year-old as "pedophilia"), an abuse of broadcast authority (e.g., the presentation of any newly disclosed fact or action as a "breaking news" item), and an abuse of decorum (e.g., the merciless personal destruction of a gay man by people who are ostensibly the "progressive" element in this society).

This is a return to the kind of partisan orchestration last seen when Dan Rather and Mary Mapes tried to promote the Killian Forgeries ---the difference this time not being "fake but accurate," but "irrelevant but useful."

I don't give a good damn about any of this nonsense. It is very obviously nothing more than a concoction of the Big Media machine trying to influence an election.

topsecretk9

---Let's be clear as mud - the Foley scandal is not about homosexuality but it would not be unreasonable to out gay Republicans in response to it. Can anyone follow that?--

Corn deep inside a paper bag of mud.

---But we have nothing to fight about since we all agree this is awful. And since Josh Marshall and Kevin Drum think "The List" will be coming from Republicans, I encourage them to denounce the concept unequivocally and pre-emptively, as I am doing here.--

Kevin Drum and Josh Marshall doing damage control for their soul.

BTW

Does anybody here really think that Foley is not
a pedophile? He has been engaging in this immoral behavior for years. Do you really think that another few weeks will pass without more victims coming forward to testify to more grotesque behavior? His victims smell the blood in the water too!

BTW

The repugs could throw some of their own off the cliff to please the gods but they wont. They have bought the BushCo mantra that "admitting culpability is for the weak". Instead they're going to incrementally respond to the accusations and evidence coming out daily and therefore chase this mess all the way to the rocky bottom below. Splat!

J. Peden

All I see in the Foley situation is the same old same old: everything Faux Liberals get their hands on suffers, no matter whether it's valid issues or people. Make any list you want.

jason Leopold

a pedophile?

I called Gerry Studds, and he said he'd have to get back to me on that.

zener

I've seen this canard about Clinton and Mel Reynolds a lot lately. Reynolds committed sex offences under the law of Illinois. He received no clemency and served his term. His federal offences were things like wire fraud, and for these Clinton commuted his sentence.

paul

Are we back to the emails showing he was creepy, or does the revelation that the IM's were from an 18 year old still qualify as pedophilia?

Does anybody have an excerpt of his im discussion with minors?

Not like abc is going to provide a quality correction, so that I can seperate the disgusting from the illegal.

BTW

America does not remember Studds. If it did it still would not care. You could try focusing on the present. Throw Hastert, Boehner et al off the cliff or hold their hands to the bottom. Pick your poison.

clarice feldman

zener--so what? Why with his record did he deserve a pardon at all?

Joe Mealyus

"Does anybody here really think that Foley is not a pedophile?"

Surely JustOneMinute has some French readers, who would take issue with the idea that a man who has sex with 16 (or 17 or 18) year old persons (or who wants to have to sex with them or who exchanges sexually explicit e-mails with them) is a pedophile. Or at least some liberal readers who take the position that the French are right about everything.

BTW

Wow! You know the righties are extremely disoriented when they start looking to the French for answers and accusing others of homophobia!

Sara (Squiggler)

Joe that question has been answered at least a dozen times today. Go to the last thread and read through the 800 to 900 comments, I'm sure you find your answer several times over.

The quick answer, the lefties think he is a pedophile. The sane and sensible rest understand the difference between sex with a prepubescent child and cybersex with a consenting adult.

clarice feldman

While the story was framed wrongly--as a tale of a sexual pedophilia-- to date we have no evidence of sex or pedophilia, Joe.

BTW

"The sane and sensible rest understand the difference between sex with a prepubescent child and cybersex with a consenting adult."

Smoke --> fire

Topsecretk9

America does not remember Studds. If it did it still would not care. You could try focusing on the present.

IE Democrats do not care if Democrats sexually prey on youth. Excellent. Thanks for clearing that non existent moral dilemma up.

zener

Just a matter of honestly presenting the facts, clarice. As it is put here and elsewhere, it sounds as if Clinton pardoned Reynolds for the sex offense. He didn't; noone did. The federal offences were not sexual. I don't remember the basis for commuting the federal sentence - I believe he served about half his time.

BTW

Do you remeber this line?

George W. Bush: "What an impressive crowd: the haves, and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base."

And whose children do you think spend time as pages on the hill? Bend over BushCo.

anon

This is odd.

The Miami Herlad;

..e-mails between Foley and a former House page, which top GOP leaders saw in 2005. Foley was told to cease contact with the page. Hastert noted that the same e-mails were viewed by editors at The St. Petersburg Times, which reviewed them, considered them ''friendly chit chat'' and declined to run a story.

Miami Herald Executive Editor Tom Fiedler said Sunday the newspaper also saw the same e-mails and ``didn't feel there was sufficient clarity in the e-mails to warrant a story.


From The Hill yesterday;

The source who in July gave news media Rep. Mark Foley’s (R-Fla.) suspect e-mails to a former House page says the documents came to him from a House GOP aide.

If the media in the form of the Herald and others had the emails last year, what is The Hill talking about in saying that they were turned over to the media in July of this year?

Topsecretk9

OH...this gets even better...StopsexualPred - after all his trolling and "SHOCKING""KEEP THEM COMING" "LET"S FOCUS""I HAD SO MANY MEDIA INQUIRIES"

Has -- like a whiny little titty baby (isn't that Atrios says? sounds sorta preddy like) has suddenly turned into a shrinking violet concern troll -

Can you say subpoena and F B I ?

stevesh

anon/October 5, 2006 at 12:11 a.m.
-------------------------------------

Macsmind blog (I believe) reports that the author of The Hill story is a former assistant to David Corn at The Nation. Grain(s) of salt advised.

Dave

anon and Clarice have been pushing this idea: "CREW does in fact seem to have been the party behind the IM's, as per the story at NR"

As JM Hanes has pointed out, that's a misreading (accidental or otherwise) of the underlying source. TAT points to NRO which points to WSJ, which says this:

... Brian Ross ... said a nonpartisan source provided the "tamer" emails that the network posted ... Within hours of that posting, "numerous" former House pages emailed ABC with additional allegations about Mr. Foley, Mr. Ross said.

Two former pages ... offered ABC texts of sexually explicit instant messages purportedly sent by Mr. Foley. ...

Mr. Ross declined to identify any of the sources by name. He described the first tipster [Note: meaning the source of the emails] as a "Capitol Hill source" -- though not an aide or congressional official -- who was "aware of the pages' complaints" and "concerned about kids and pedophiles." This person, Mr. Ross said, is "involved in public-policy issues" but isn't affiliated with either political party. ...

Mr. Ross said CREW wasn't his initial source for the emails and that he wasn't aware that the group had them.... [Note: it's entirely possible that CREW passed the emails to another "nonpartisan" entity which then passed them to Ross.]

... posting them [the emails] on the Internet allowed the network to tap what Mr. Ross described a "general outrage" among former pages about Mr. Foley. "We only got it because we ran the first kind of denial...For him to say he was overfriendly...that somehow aggravated them," Mr. Ross said.

In other words, Ross is saying again that the IMs came from pages. This is consistent with what his reporter Sauer said here:

So we published that story [about the emails], and then almost immediately we began receiving emails from former pages, some going back as far as five years, who said this is the tip of the iceberg. There is so much more here. And Thursday night, I started reaching out to them by phone and email and talking to them Thursday night and Friday morning. And Friday morning, I received transcripts from two different former pages that were instant messages between former pages and the congressman, and they were very sexually explicit, and they were very similar. Both of them contained similar language, similar requests that the congressman had asked the young boys to do.

Here's what Sauer said about how he got the emails: "They were passed to a colleague of mine from a source, not someone from a Democratic campaign, a source on the Hill." This is exactly consistent with what Ross just stated via WSJ: a "Capitol Hill source."

Dave

vnj ----------- "It is now being reported that the correspondent with Foley was 18 at the time of most, if not all of the offending instant messages and is now 21"

A bunch of people are making this mistake. Unfortunately, you should probably keep the champagne on ice a little longer. You are making the common, but unfounded, assumption that there is only one party on the other end of Foley's IMs. Not so.

Above I cited an interview with Sauer. He said this:

"I had let him know that I had obtained two transcripts from two different former pages, regarding internet messages with former pages. ... I have talked to, now, I would say, almost ten former pages from different years, a few of whom have had direct email interactions with the congressman that were like this, a couple of whom are just friends of people that had these experiences"

So you're not in a position to say "the correspondent." There was more than one.

Dave

sara ----------"the Dems refuse to and have made their lives a living hell with their son receiving death threats and being subjected to teasing and taunting by his peers. A fate at 17 worse than death."

It's really ironic that you would make a big fuss about the privacy of one of the young people involved, at the exact same moment that you are gleefully promoting the outing of one of the other young people involved. That's a disgrace.

The blogger who poked around the ABC site to dig up information that should have been hidden is smarter than the people at ABC, but much less moral. Likewise for you.

Dave

MayBee -------------- "CREW moved the PDF and altered their redactions"

Thank you for answering a question I had been asking. As far as I can tell, the CREW material is properly redacted. But maybe I didn't notice an earlier version that was not properly redacted. Anyway, I'm glad they fixed it.

ts ------- "Well, I have their originals."

I hope you'll do the right thing and keep it to yourself, notwithstanding the execrable example set by certain other people.

Dave

anon ----------- "is this the same Fordham who said 'I had no inkling that this kind of blatantly reckless - just obscene - behavior was going on behind our backs.' "

I agree that Fordham has to explain this apparent discrepancy. And I think he will, maybe as follows: "I warned leadership years ago because I had a feeling that things could get bad; I just didn't know that it had gotten as bad as this."

anonymous

... to date we have no evidence of sex ...

Posted by: clarice feldman | October 04, 2006 at 11:09 PM

And isn't that really the problem, Clarice ?

Dave

Clarice ------- "I've explained what I consider to have been a minor error"

When something is 4 days old, claiming it's a year old is not "a minor error." Given the context of this "error," the distinction is highly material. You're trying to claim that Dems have been holding relevant evidence for a long time, and you're inventing phony proof in the interest of promoting that narrative.

"based on a credible post"

I realize your favorite method of covering your lies is to tell more lies. This is the same excuse you tried floating a few days ago, when you said: "I took that from an earlier post on this Board..I think by Rick which I believed to be accurate."

You're suggesting that there's "an earlier post on this Board" that claims this Kos diary is a year old (as if that would excuse not noticing the date clearly cited both at the top of the diary and in its URL). Small problem: there is no such "earlier post on this Board". I know, because I checked.

In other words, you're repeatedly telling a fib, in a lame attempt to cover for another fib.

"It is inconsequential to the story whether kosniks rejected the claim 4 months or one year before."

And speaking of fibs, I see you can't help throwing in another one. You're trying to create the impression that I'm beefing about the difference between 4 months and 12 months. I'm not. The diary wasn't 4 months old. It was 4 days old.

So instead of taking responsibility for your mistake, you insist on spreading more misinformation. Typical.

"The point is before the story broke someone posted the essence of it on kos and even they rejected it as improbable so how can the left now suggest Hastert should have done more."

This silly question has several very obvious answers, which I gave here.

Sara (Squiggler)

Dave you are beginning to sound obsessed, bordering on the possessed.

Why don't you go check Rick's board. I believe she means Rick Moran at Right Wing Nuthouse.

MayBee

Dave-
I realize there are a lot of comments here, but one of your questions has already been answered. Per the WSJ:


Two former pages — one who had been sponsored by a Republican member of Congress and one by a Democrat — offered ABC texts of sexually explicit instant messages purportedly sent by Mr. Foley. Mr. Ross said the network then tracked down the original recipients of those messages, using a page yearbook, and got firsthand confirmation of their authenticity. Mr. Ross said he thinks one of the original recipients was a Democrat and the other a Republican.

The people that gave ABC the IMs were not the original recipients of the IMs.

Furthermore:
blockquote>Mr. Ross declined to identify any of the sources by name. He described the first tipster as a "Capitol Hill source" — though not an aide or congressional official — who was "aware of the pages' complaints" and "concerned about kids and pedophiles." This person, Mr. Ross said, is "involved in public-policy issues" but isn't affiliated with either political party.

MayBee

sorry

anonymous

This looks like a job for that intrepid and "fearsome blogger"
topsecretK9.

Isn't this where she rushes in shouting:
"I larwyn'd the thread!"

MayBee

Oh wait! I see you knew the information that I posted, you just cleverly inserted an ellipsis in your excerpt.

Come on, Dave. I'm trying to assume you have good will here.

MayBee

sorry

anonymous

What ? A cleverly inserted ellipsis ? Dave, you scoundrel !

Omaha1

This whole story just disgusts me. Republican or Democrat, who are these scumbags who think it's OK to spend their time in Washington chasing after young, impressionable men & women? "Everyone else does it" is hardly an excuse. Our representatives are elected & paid to advocate for our interests, not to abuse their authority & "celebrity" cruising for sex partners. Ick! A pox on all of their houses!

And really I don't think it's seemly for either party to be running around pointing fingers now & saying, "well they knew about it long ago & they're just exposing it/covering it up for political purposes." Wrong is wrong and I'd rather see some effort made by both sides to put a stop to all of this sleazy, unprofessional misbehavior. Are there no decent people in Congress? Is this the best we can hope for?

Tom Maguire

Who ever posts "the list" is crossing the nuclear threshold and participating in an amazingly stupid act - and of course both sides will blame the other. Ugh.

A side wrinkle that merits a mention - although both sides will blame the other, there is a good chance that one side will be lying.

So, will "the media" gaive hints as to the political orientation of their sources on a no-name basis?

Bonus Baffler - will the media want to tell us the sexual orientation of their reporters and editors covering this? No way.

Cecil Turner

Dave you are beginning to sound obsessed, bordering on the possessed.

Dave has been sounding like jukeboxgrad since the beginning. And the facade appears to be slipping.

Syl

Maybee

The people that gave ABC the IMs were not the original recipients of the IMs.

I think this is an incorrect reading, actually.

Tracking down the identities of the IM sources allowed them to confirm that the person(s) that gave them the IM's were, indeed, the persons involved in the IMing.


Pofarmer

Me thinks the Libs on here are getting a little over excited, but I suppose that's understandable. My FIL called night before last just to chat. Said he didn't even want to turn on the TV anymore because of all the sleazy political junk. He's always been a split ticket voter(Missouri is well known for that)but no more. He said he can't vote for any Democrats when the national ones are acting like this. In his words, "I don't really want to be a Republican, but the Democrat's have made me one."

Democrats are going to lose seats in local elections all around the state, and probably the country for this. People are tired of it. Course, we're just out here in "flyover country".

Pofarmer

I agree that Fordham has to explain this apparent discrepancy. And I think he will, maybe as follows: "I warned leadership years ago because I had a feeling that things could get bad; I just didn't know that it had gotten as bad as this."

I think Fordham is trying to pull a Richard Clarke. "I knew, I knew all about it!!! I tried to tell em but nobody would listen!!!"

I ain't buyin it.

Pofarmer

Why would Fordham have gone to Hastert's office 3 years ago? Wasn't DeLay the leader then? Just askin.

MayBee

Syl:
This is what the article said:
"then tracked down the original recipients of those messages, using a page yearbook, and got firsthand confirmation of their authenticity."

I'm not sure how you are parsing that to get what you are getting. Walk me through it.
I guess it depends what's in the page yearbook, no? But tracking downt the original recipients seems very different to me than what you are saying.

Syl

I think the Page Alumni group is involved in this (not a bad thing, of course).

Loraditch said he had seen IM's a few years ago. Jordan is working closely with Loraditch.

Now if they really wanted something done about Foley and nothing was happening they could have gone to the press at any time. But they did not.

They had their reasons, whatever they may be.

But ABC says it had a Capitol Hill source for the emails. That could have been Loraditch.

And I'll bet dollars to donuts the IMs came from his computer rather than the separate computers of the former pages involved.

Other pages and former pages may have contacted ABC as well, but they didn't give out any IMs or emails. Only Jordan and one other. The other pages/former pages involvement is just further fallout.

All seems perfectly innocent except for:

(1)the timing
(2)the trigger

Foley's opponent calling for an investigation. Roger's work behind the scenes and contacts with DCCC. And unknown stuff. All could have contributed to (1)and(2).

So there were people other than Loraditch and former pages who knew about the IM's and could guarantee that they would come out.

Because they knew the emails were not enough they needed this guarantee and cooperation before they let the emails loose again.


Syl

MayBee

This is what the article said:
"then tracked down the original recipients of those messages, using a page yearbook, and got firsthand confirmation of their authenticity."

Yeah, you could be right. I think I omitted 'firsthand' in my reading.

But in either case, those IM's were probably sitting on the computer in the Page Alumni group.

Specter

I just keep laughing. BTW - do you have children? How old are they? Please DO NOT send me pictures of them. But - do you really think that 16, 17, and 18 year olds are pre-pubescent children? That is ridiculous. That is what it takes to qualify someone as being a pedophile.

I have kids that age - and while they are good kids (keeping the fingers crossed - both involved in porgrams and activities that require drug testing and the like) - the stories they bring home about kids their age and YOUNGER would curl your toes - sex, drugs, alcohol, etc.

If you think that in today's society a 16 year old is "innocent about the ways of the world" then you are truly living in fantasy land. That is why the age of consent laws have been going down around the country - people recognize that teens are much more aware of their own sexuality than they were say 30 or 40 years ago.

I truly believe tha the people trying to hang "pedophile" on this are watching way too much Law & Order: SVU. I got news for you guys - that is TV and not real life....

Syl

The IM's themselves may have come from the Page Alumni computer, but it's possible Luraditch had nothing to do with it and only gave out the emails.

I don't know Luraditch at all, but I suspect he would rather go through normal channels than this backhanded sh*t.

I'm wondering who else had access to that computer? and IMs.

I simply do not think it was a coincidence that these IMs which had been around for a while just happened to find the right circumstances to be revealed at precisely this time.

Syl

The 'outrage' coming from the BDS lefties dropping by should be really embarrassing to them. LOL

Perspicuous. No self-awareness. Nor awareness of how they appear to other people.

On the other hand, I'm convinced that some are completely aware--and don't care.

MayBee

You know what I think Syl?
I think Jordan told Loraditch about his IMs with Foley. The were setting up the alumi group right near the time of the IMs. He gave Loraditch a copy, and Loraditch kept it.
The alumni group has its stresses, and Loraditch is the one paying the bills. Jordan starts working on his campaign. Matt's in Baltimore, but Jordan is far away from the Hill and doing his own thing.
So Loraditch finds out about the Foley thing...or approaches someone to curry favor...and he hands over the copies of the IMs without J knowing it.

Just an alternative theory.

Tom Maguire

From BTW:

Does anybody here really think that Foley is not
a pedophile?

From Wikipedia

Pedophilia:

Pedophilia or paedophilia (see spelling differences) is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent or peripubescent children. Persons with this attraction are called pedophiles.

In contrast to the generally accepted medical definition, the term pedophile is also used colloquially to denote significantly older adults who are sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent,[1] as well as those who have sexually abused a child.

The age of consent in DC is 16.

Now, I happen to think that Foley's behavior is deplorable.

However, let me challenge BTW's ability to process information with two questions of my own:

(1) DO you think Foley is a pedophile?

(2) Do you think that, if Foley were a Democrat, the media coverage and lefty blogs would have promoted that Wiki definition a bit more energetically?

verner

Update: Just on Fox, a NC congressman sent a letter yesterday requesting that Pelosi and Rahm Emanuel (who by the way, happens to be gay IIRC) answer under oath whether or not they knew about those IMs. They refused.

Combine that with Haserts agressive comments about Soros funded group, and the base is going to be very angry when they find out who is behind this... They already know and have to goods on them.

My prediction, with the FBI hot on the trail, and the IM kid lawyering up, somebody is going to crack and snitch on the rest of them. Tampering with a federal election, and blackmail are very serious crimes.

Dale in Atlanta

So, IF the Page was in fact 18yrs old, when Foley began the IM/email exhcange, and I can't tell from all the stories I'm ready at Drudge, and Passionate, etc., but it appears that way, then I have the obvious rhetorical question:

If the page was a "consenting" adult", WHAT in fact, makes this different from Bill Clinton's dalliance with a "consenting adult" Intern?

Ah, I KNOW: Clinton was a DEMOCRAT, so he's held to a different standard; i.e. NO STANDARD at all!

Because, Because Democrats champion gay rights, and women's rights, etc., so THEY are allowed to abused and violate those rights!!

That's the ticket, yeah.....makes perfectly logical sense to me, in that Lunar Chiroptera way...

verner

Dale, another thing to consider--which of the IMs occurred before he was suppose to be 18, and which ocurred after--makes a big difference. That needs to be clarified NOW.

ABC has done increadibly dishonest reporting over this--and are getting ready to recieve the Mary Mapes award for it.

Dave

sara ---- "Why don't you go check Rick's board. I believe she means Rick Moran at Right Wing Nuthouse."

Work on your reading comprehension. As I was careful to point out, Clarice said this: this: "I took that from an earlier post on this Board..I think by Rick which I believed to be accurate."

I guess you live on a planet where the words "this board" mean "not this board, some other board."

Aside from that, there's no such comment at RWN. Keep trying.

Tom Maguire

I've seen this canard about Clinton and Mel Reynolds a lot lately. Reynolds committed sex offences under the law of Illinois. He received no clemency and served his term.

Good point - I have put in a clarification.

And I understand everything but why a canard.

boris

IF the Page was in fact 18yrs old, when Foley began

Fairly well established that the ex page was 17 when contact started. Still that's the age I went into boot camp where some nasty language was used on occasion.

Jonah comes around to one of my points from yesterday ...

he resigned when confronted with the repugnance of his own deeds. This left a lot of angry people without someone to flay in public. Which in turn left the social conservative base of the GOP looking for a scalp at the same time the Democrats were eager to relentlessly exploit the issue for partisan gains.

...

I deeply suspect the best thing in the world for the GOP would have been if Foley had refused to resign for a few weeks. That way the GOP could show its moral rectitude by defenestrating the guy with much gusto. If it lasted long enough, we might even have seen some Democrats hem and haw in his defense — as they did with Gerry Studds, who did something much worse.


Neo

By David Corn's logic, that I, being a man, should be opposed to "women's issues"

Being gay is more than just a matter of what gender one sleeps with.

One is left to assume that if one is gay, that it require that one surrender one's mind and soul to the "movement," which most importantly means to the Democratic Party. This is BS.

Meanwhile, Corn talks the talk of the Hard religious Right, purging Republican gays.

If tomorrow, it was discovered that Adolph Hitler was gay, should the "movement" switch gears and have all gays start goose-stepping ?
The list has the "movement" one step closer to a goose-step, without the discovery.

Dave

MayBee -------- "The people that gave ABC the IMs were not the original recipients of the IMs."

Thanks for trying to respond, but this is not a response. The claim that has been made by Clarice and others is that CREW had IMs, and gave them to ABC. The WSJ article you're citing does not support that claim.

Yes, "the people that gave ABC the IMs were not the original recipients of the IMs." But the people that gave ABC the IMs were indeed pages. They were simply pages who one way or another got their hands on transcripts that originally had belonged to other pages.

The text you quoted makes this extremely clear: "two former pages ... offered ABC texts of sexually explicit instant messages." This couldn't possibly be less ambiguous. ABC got "texts of sexually explicit instant messages" from "two former pages." Not from CREW. From "two former pages."

The important clarification that is added is that these pages, who offered texts to ABC, were not the original recipients.

And yes, the article also says this: "[Ross] described the first tipster as a 'Capitol Hill source.' " What does "first tipster" mean? It means "entity which provided the first information on this story." That means the emails. Ross also says CREW was not the source of the emails (but I speculate that CREW could easily have been an indirect source for the emails).

As I've already pointed out, this is all highly congruent with what Sauer said.

"you just cleverly inserted an ellipsis in your excerpt."

I have no idea why you're objecting to any ellipsis I've used. It would be great if you would explain specifically what you think I did that was some form of unfair quoting.

verner

David Corn--the ROY COHN of the progressive movement. First his butt gets burned over Plame, and now he's going to add gay baiter in chief to the resume. Maybe I should say Roy Cohn wannabe--Cohn was never so sloppy.

Cecil Turner

Does anybody here really think that Foley is not a pedophile?

Aside from the typical disingenuous lefty rhetorical trick (i.e., "I can't prove my point, so I'll assert it and challenge my opponent to prove me wrong"), the term "pedophile" fairly clearly does not apply, even just referencing the dictionary [American Heritage]:

pedophile (pèd´e-fìl´, pê´de-) noun
An adult who is sexually attracted to a child or children. [...]

child (chìld) noun
plural children (chîl´dren)
Abbr. ch.
1. A person between birth and puberty. [...]

The alternate term proffered by many is "Pederast":
pederast (pèd´e-ràst´) noun
A man who has a sexual relationship with a boy.

boy (boi) noun
1. A male child.
2. An immature or inexperienced man, especially a young man.

Well, that seems to work, though it isn't very precise (i.e., could also refer to a pedophile). If you want a precise definition, the wiki entry for chickenhawk seems best, which refers to a slang dictionary:
  1. chickenhawk - an older person who likes the very young and seeks them out, most often an older gay male.
  2. chicken - a very young person who cruises older people, usually a gay male under the age of 21.
Er, "dead on, balls accurate" as they say. Of course, that doesn't work well politically, both because it's old hat and because it underscores the rather nasty undertone of the previous usage of the word.

Cecil Turner

Dave,

Thanks for trying to respond, but this is not a response.

Speaking of not responding, I'm curious if you are the same poster who previously used the name jukeboxgrad.

Jane

Wow the crazies really ooze out of the woodwork at night don't they? I particularly like that lawyer guy who provides a direct link to his law firm while saying things like:

You thugs and morons are completely and utterly fucked! Welcome to The October Surprise; this time it's ours, and you are taking up the ass. Enjoy it.

Democrats are really really really dumb.

MayBee

Has ABC posted any transcripts from the 2nd page? Have all the transcripts been from the same page? It seems to me that is the case. Why is that?

JM Hanes

Syl:

"But in either case, those IM's were probably sitting on the computer in the Page Alumni group."

I commented in a similar vein yesterday. I suspect the reason the IM transcripts were saved (vs. disappearing per default) was for circulation among a group of buddies who could easily have started out thinking the whole thing was a massive joke at the expense of the guy they called "FFF" or "Foley Fagot Florida." That would certainly explain why they originally kept the whole escapade under wraps; they thought they'd get in trouble for it! Personally, I didn't find the explanation of how all this came about from the page Neo quoted was particularly convincing.

Eventually, some or all of them realized they were sitting on an oppo research goldmine.

There are two details I'm not clear on. Is the page who got the emails from the same "class" as the pages who were involved in the IM chats? From the PDF originally provided by CREW, it's also impossible to tell if the young man actually provided the complete text of the emails he received, because it looks like he quoted from them rather than forwarding the actual messages themselves. I'd be curious to know if I'm the only one who thinks that the excerpts he provided seem somewhat at odds with his characterization of them as "sick, sick, sick..."

SlimGuy

Both Rogers and Aravosis support the same position as Corn almost to the word

Rogers --

http://www.blogactive.com/2004_07_01_blogactive_archive.html

While the entire editorial is worth a read, I couldn't resist posting some of my favorite lines from it:
"IF EVER THERE were a definition of a gay Uncle Tom, it would fit these people. These are not dishwashers or short-order cooks at Cracker Barrel, facing poverty if their redneck bosses learn they're big homos.
"These are smart, talented, well-educated professionals who could find success in any number of highly paid positions on or off the Hill but who instead have chosen to devote their professional lives to advancing the careers of politicians who would strip them and their friends of basic civil rights protections and even redress of their grievances in the courts.
It is 2004, not 1954, and sexual orientation in and of itself is no longer a "private fact" beyond the pale of inquiry.
It is not the job of the Washington Blade - and ought not be the job of HRC - to protect the identity of semi-closeted congressional aides who have important questions to answer about why they have not acted to protect their fellow gay citizens.
THANK YOU CHRIS CRAIN AND THANK YOU WASHINGTON BLADE!

Aravosis

http://washblade.com/2004/6-18/news/national/wave.cfm

Wave of outings hits Congress (Gay)
Angry activists target closeted members, staffers with anti-gay records

By ADRIAN BRUNE
Friday, June 18, 2004

The proposed constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage has revived a debate over the ethics of outing those closeted gay men and lesbians in a position to affect public policy.

On the day after Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) reportedly told Christian leaders that the Senate will vote on the Federal Marriage Amendment in July, well-known D.C. activist John Aravosis issued a call for the names of gay congressional members, staffers and their associates to publicly out them.

“If you’re gay and you support making sexual orientation a political weapon, then your sexual orientation is fair game, and you will be outed to the rafters,” Aravosis said.

However the same article continues with

It’s a campaign predicted months ago by Steve Gunderson, the former Republican Congressman who came out a decade ago after facing outing threats, and one that other former members of the Austin 12 — the group of gay Republicans who met with President Bush during the 2000 campaign — tried to prevent.

But the current political climate and the renewed anger of gay rights advocates has once again forced open the Pandora’s box, according to Gunderson.

boris

JMH:

for circulation among a group of buddies who could easily have started out thinking the whole thing was a massive joke at the expense of the guy they called "FFF" or "Foley Fagot Florida."

Lets call that the Beavis and Butthead theory of the Jordan/Loraditch group.

SlimGuy

I still haven't been able to make a determination.

Can anyone say if aol im's include timestamps , is it an option you can turn on or is it something done with an add of program?

SlimGuy

If a person has an aol screen name but then uses another im or pm program with the same screen name but a different site that does support timestamping it could be passed off as an aol im, since the domain of the system being used does not show and it could be passed off for legit. Or have someone looking in aol archives for ims really done somewhere else

verner

Please remember folks, any thing coming from Bolton at "the Hill" is highly suspect, and comes with dubious credibility. He was David Corn's former assistant--need I say more.

These people get their journalistic ethics from Pravda--and I'm not kidding.

Dave

Pofarmer ---- "Wasn't DeLay the leader then"

Yes, DeLay was majority leader, but Hastert was Speaker of the House. The latter is a higher rank.

syl ------- "Now if they [pages] really wanted something done about Foley and nothing was happening they could have gone to the press at any time"

I think pages, or at least a certain core group of pages, were well-aware of what went on last November, when Hastert et al were informed. I think those pages expected that to be the end of Foley. I think they were surprised when Hastert dropped the ball. I think they then decided to move more in the direction of taking matters into their own hands (if you'll excuse the expression). I think this took the form of gathering materials, directly and indirectly, and taking steps to launch information via SSP, CREW and ABC.

I also think these pages may have consciously thought about election timing, for the purpose of stabbing Foley (and his enablers) with a sharper knife. Good for them.

That's my speculation about why they went to the press when they did, why they did, and how they did.

"Other pages and former pages may have contacted ABC as well, but they didn't give out any IMs or emails"

Keep in mind that Sauer said he ended up talking with almost 10 pages. So I don't think it's safe to assume that transcripts were provided only by the first two pages.

"All seems perfectly innocent except for:
(1)the timing
(2)the trigger"

If the pages behind this decided that Foley should get his Christmas present right on Christmas, and not sooner, I fail to see what's wrong with this. Foley hurt people. They decided to hurt him back. Good for them.

"So there were people other than Loraditch and former pages who knew about the IM's and could guarantee that they would come out."

I imagine lots of people heard rumors about IMs. But I think only the people in the possession of the transcripts (and I think this means various pages) were in a position to "guarantee that they would come out."

"Because they knew the emails were not enough they needed this guarantee and cooperation before they let the emails loose again."

I think Ross ran the email story hoping that it would knock IMs loose. But I think he couldn't be sure.

If all of this was so thoroughly planned and coordinated, then the story would have unfolded in a simpler manner: Ross would have skipped the emails and gone right to the IMs.

JM Hanes

The whole "list" phenomenon is the worst sort of political and social blackmail. The fact that it is so completely unabashed is stunning. I can't even come up with an adequate way to describe the fact that gays are victimizing other gays in the name of a gay agenda. "Hate crime" is the only thing that springs to mind.

verner

I seem to remember Ross stating that one of the pages was a repub (that would be Edmunds) and one was a democrat. Was Loraditch sponsored by a dem? Is he a dem?

SlimGuy

The argument for outing gays working for those opposing gay marriage is bogus.

Otherwise it would seem if straight people follow the "true line" then they must oppose gay marriage, other wise the only choic left is that all who support gay marriage must be gay!

Totally ignoring choice of belief is not tied to choice of lifestyle

verner

I also want everyone to remember something. CREW has been ground zero for almost every single GOP scandal launched against the House--and the repubs are not stupid about such things. I would imagine that someone has bee assigned the task of keeping a very close eye on all of their movements. And they have many more resources than any of us.

As of this morning, Hastert has called their bluff. He would not have done that unless he was holding a winning hand. Expect some very interesting revelations today.

Dave

syl ---------- "I simply do not think it was a coincidence that these IMs which had been around for a while just happened to find the right circumstances to be revealed at precisely this time."

I think for a long time certain pages knew about various IMs, and/or had in their possession copies of those IMs. I think it's very likely that over time this would have been an intense topic of discussion for certain pages. I can imagine lots of arguing about the ethics of the situation, not unlike the arguing here.

But at least certain pages were probably looking forward to the right moment for those transcripts to see the light of day. So when things started falling into place and the opportunity presented itself, they didn't have to go to the basement and dust off an old PC. They were already ready.

Rick Ballard

JMH,

There are a couple of new commenters here trying out a 'pages revolt' theme that won't stand scrutiny. 'Revolting pages' is the more likely answer because these kids are fully intelligent enough to know that most of them gft their appointments as payoffs - this isn't a merit based program at all.

I believe that each class of pages is discrete with no overlap. I would note that there appear to be be two summer groups as well as what appears to be a full school year group. That means that (including Senate pages) there are three hundred plum appointments to spread over each year which in turn means that, per a normal distibution, there will be 3-6 gay kids in the page program in any given year. Although each class is discrete the gay community in DC is not. How long would it take a gay kid to figure out where the nearest gay bar that wasn't fussy about ID was located and how long would he be at that bar before the 'DC outers brigade' was in contact?

Theoretically, the page program provides practical education in politics, maybe opposition research is a popular elective.

JM Hanes

boris:

"Lets call that the Beavis and Butthead theory of the Jordan/Loraditch group."

ROTFL! That shoe sure fits.

Dave

"pedophile"

Foley's not a pedophile. He's just a serial sexual predator who habitually targets minors. And the GOP leadership are enablers and liars.

And this joint is full of apologists for predators, enablers and liars.

MayBee

"Hate crime" is the only thing that springs to mind.

I've been thinking blackmail, but this is better.

JPod has coined a term I think TM will be envious of: McCornthyism

Cecil Turner

Theoretically, the page program provides practical education in politics, maybe opposition research is a popular elective.

I'm having a hard time believing they were plants from the beginning. I'm having less trouble with the concept that they were tracked down by the "outing brigade":

On another note, the recent year end appeal for the site only raised about 50% of the goal. Since starting PageOneQ and with other gifts, I've been able to dedicate all of your support to blogACTIVE to the research of hypocrites. In one case, I even had to buy two last minute tickets to fly to sources -- meetings I could not mention at the time -- (you'll have to trust me, six months time will prove one of those trips was worth every penny).

JM Hanes

Rick:

Not long, if the third email over at STOP is anything to go by. With each passing revelation, I find it harder to believe the Innocents Abroad theory being floated here by Dave.

Cecil Turner

Dave,

And this joint is full of apologists for predators, enablers and liars.

I note you still haven't responded to the simple question of whether you're the same person as jukeboxgrad. Too complicated?

The comments to this entry are closed.

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