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November 15, 2006

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Pofarmer

It's all about who's going to be in best shape to win the White House.

That's a sad, sad statement.

TexasToast

Tom

You left out of the goals an Iraq receptive to a continuing US military presence.

What they're going to say is: lower the goals, forget about the democracy crap, put more resources in, do it.

This actually looks like the last, best hope - but its a tall order. Why should any arab trust us now?


Sue

Why should any arab trust us now?

I thought Iraqis were Persian. But you have a point. Why should they trust us? We leave when the going gets tough.

TexasToast

From
Battle of the Bulge (1965)

Col. Martin Hessler: Our column has made the farthest advance! We have outrun the other Panzers! The eyes of Germany are on us! The Fuhrer himself will decorate me. We have done it Conrad! We have done it!
Cpl. Conrad: Then I was wrong. We have won the war.
Col. Martin Hessler: No.
Cpl. Conrad: You mean we have lost?
Col. Martin Hessler: No.
Cpl. Conrad: I don't understand. If we have not won, and we have not lost, than what is happening?
Col. Martin Hessler: The best thing possible is happening - the war will go on.
Cpl. Conrad: For how long?
Col. Martin Hessler: Indefinitely. On, and on, and on!
Cpl. Conrad: But it must come to an end.
Col. Martin Hessler: You're a fool Conrad. Those of us who understood knew in 1941 that we could never win.
Cpl. Conrad: You mean Colonel for three years we have been fighting without any hope of victory?
Col. Martin Hessler: There are many kinds of victory. ....

Sue - The Iraqis are Arab (and both sunni and shia)- the Iranians are persian (and Shia).

clarice

I hope the Guardian is right.

Charles Martin

In other words, the Guardian is revealing thatg the paleocons were right all along and Bush is going along with them instead of the neocons.

Gee, I wonder who could have leaked that trial balloon?

Pofarmer

You're using movie quotes now TT?

geez.

Why should any arab have trusted us before?

Pat yourself on the back.

Sue

Sue - The Iraqis are Arab (and both sunni and shia)- the Iranians are persian (and Shia).

Well, I'll be damned. My point stands, though.

Pete

And the recommendations are ..
..DRUMROLL..
Move the goalposts, install your own handpicked bad-ass dictator, and declare "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" (just make sure you don't do it again on a battleship).

So lets look at the four points.

If 20,000 troops would have made a difference it would have happened a long time ago. These whack a mole strategies don't seem to work in the long term.

And I just can't see Bush and the mullahs sitting down and talking about Iraq (wouldn't the base and the Israelis have a fit?). With Shiites a majority in Iraq, Iran is definitely in the drivers seat. And those history buffs who have been citing WWII as a precedence for Iraq would have found far more similarities in the war between India and Pakistan which gave birth to the nation of Bangladesh in the early 1970s. A secular democratic nation liberating a largely Muslim nation and installing a democracy, only to have the democracy overthrown and the two nations diverging away from each other.

It is a little late to try to get the disfunctional groups back together in Iraq. The Kurds love their autonomy and are the only group there that could form lasting ties with us.

And the money spigot has already been flowing at full volume, and with our debt reaching record highs I don't know how much additional money we could afford to keep burning in Iraq. Does Iraqi pork taste any better?

lurker

Our federal deficit has been going down and expected to be halved by 2009 if the democrats don't do anything.

Hope they are engineers to create a moat around Baghdad as fast as possible to keep the Iranians and Syrians from entering Baghdad.

Hope they go after Sadr as soon as possible.

Riehl says that we now have command of Baghdad. Does it mean we have control of it? Or planning some major incursions to wipe out insurgents as soon as possible?

If and only if OBL and Zarahiwi had been caught by now.

lurker

Mission Accomplished was for that ship. I don't see a problem with it.

AT

"international conference"
"more direct diplomatic, financial and economic involvement"
"reviving the national reconciliation process"
"creating a credible political framework"

Does anyone else know what this stuff means?

shaman ∞

Sounds like 20,000 more dead and mutilated to me.

Pete

The federal deficit has not been going down, but is rather sharply up since Bush took office.

Plus with all the budget gimmicks, the real number to watch is the outsatnding federal debt
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Today it stands at $8,607,421,375,278.41
on Jan 19 2001 it was $5,727,776,738,304.64

That is a 50% INCREASE.

Abu Al-Poopypants

Clinton debt:
01/19/2001 $5,727,776,738,304.64
01/20/1993 $4,188,092,107,183.60
...without fighting the GWOT.

sam

Could we also have comparable GDP and net wealth figures please? It seems to me we are carrying lesser and lesser debt burden as we are becoming richer and richer.

Charles Martin

Could we also have comparable GDP and net wealth figures please? It seems to me we are carrying lesser and lesser debt burden as we are becoming richer and richer.

No. If you could, Pete would also end up pointing out that he's picking his start and end points, and what he chooses as a measure, um, creatively.

Pete

I was simply respond to the inaccuracy about the deficit. Under Clinton the debt rose 37% in 8 years. Under Bush it rose 50% in less than 6 years.

The deficit is increasing. And that too under someone who said that he was a fiscal conservative and who said that he wanted a smaller government.

Terrye

Pete:

The national debt and the deficit are not the same thing. The budget deficit has already been cut in half, which is what Bush said he wanted by the end of his term. This has been brought about by an increase in tax revenues.

And the Democrats just want to spend more money and while they might increase our taxes they will not pay the national debt.

Most of that socalled surplus was smoke and mirrors anyway, created by a dot com bubble that was all fluff. The recession was coming that summer of 2000. Over all the economy has done remarkabley well these last years.

I am old enough to remember the days of Carter and I can recall times when people wanted a job, any kind of job. Now people complain if they don't get a good dental plan.

Democrats are out there lying to people, acting that a vote for the Democrats will make everyone rich or something. It is just absurd.

Terrye

As for the actual subject at hand rather than Pete's fantasy growing deficit...

The idea that we might put security first in Iraq in the near future does not run counter to the idea of representative government. I never did think that their government would be like ours, the point is to create an atmosphere were freedom of thought and expression are possible. But the Iraqis need to create political parties and alliances that are not just about tribal allegiances and religion and most of all they need breathing room.

So I don't think this is backing off democracy at all. In fact it took many years to establish these kinds of governments following WW2. This will take time.

boris

Few understand the true relationship between economic growth and debt.

Compare the interest the government pays this year on the debt increase during Reagan's terms to the current fraction of the GDP that would not be there except for the of the economic growth during the same period.

It's pretty obvious that the increase in the size of the economy during those years has paid off handsomly.

For example suppose the economy grew by 30% during Reagan's terms. If the last year's GDP was 12 Trillion, then about 4 trillion of that can be credited to the Reagan expansion. Of course one can argue how much of that growth was the result of tax cuts and/or spending just as one can argue about how much of the debt increase was necessary or legitimate. Still the few hundred billion we pay in interest vs. several trillion in real income looks like a pretty good deal.

Pete

The deficit has been cut in half compared to what?

It has been cut in half compared to a phony made up number.

The average Bush deficit is not half of the average Clinton deficit.

I can't believe that you are arguing that deficits are good, spending is good, big govt is good.

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