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November 09, 2006

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Comments

mariposa

While it's good to hold their deeds to light and their feet to the fire, surely none should be surprised by the Times's complicity in this. They're just behaving like the snakes they are.

danking70

Can't believe they're admitting this.

MayBee

I'm making a small, Seinfeldian edit to the story:

As he headed in for dinner, he pronounced himself as despondent about his party’s hopes as he had been all year.

Yadda, yadda, yadda...two weeks later, the political world had turned, propelled by new bursts of violence in Iraq, new questions about incompetence in the waging of the war in Iraq,and an intelligence report suggesting that the American invasion had actually worsened the terrorist threat.

As it was, it left the impression that the second paragraph was mere serendipity.

Bill Faith

Excerpted and linked. In all of the "self-inflicted wounds" post-mortems I've read, the thing that no one seems to be mentioning is the Bush administration's failure to go after the major media for divulging classified information. The still have two years to do it but don't hold your breath.

SunnyDay

What a plan. They didn't want it to go well, did they? But then I knew that, I just never expected to see it in print.

How could Democrats win if this unpopular war was fought uncovered?

SunnyDay

A new day dawns - well in January...meanwhile

JJ

GJ, TM.

@ BF

At least go after the consistency problems. This is the new language world of George Lakoff-ian.

Neo

Have you seen the bigger piggies
In their starched white shirts
You will find the bigger piggies
Stirring up the dirt
And they always have clean shirts to play around in.

And in their styes with all their backing
They don't care what goes on around
And in their eyes there's something lacking
What they need's a damm good whacking.

Pete

Ultimately in a Democracy we voters deserve to get all the information. The Bush administration did us no favor by supressing the NIE that it perceived harmful to its political interests.

Intelligence is one area where the Bush administration had been in the past quite successful in spinning its alternative version of the reality - a version which remained at odds with the escalating violence and the rising US troop deaths (which IIRC were about 100 in October).

We deserve to have an honest dailog about Iraq. The Bush administration never cared for one - either before the war or after the war.

clarice

Why not just post all intel on the internet--let everyone chime in? Beats just skipping it to the NYT.

As to why no prosecutions yet..Let me suggest the existing laws are terribly inadequate except in the hands of a special prosecutor pretending they are relevant to a witch hunt.

SunnyDay

All is well, The democrats are in charge. They will tell you everything. It's a bright new day for America!!

Pete

clarice - our govt classifies far too many things. Surely some things do deserve to be classified. The general state of things in Iraq do not.

The people there (in Iraq) know how things are going.

It is the Bush administration which has tried every step of the way to classify things that they do not want us to know and to selectively leak things that they want us to know.

Pofarmer

It's rather hard to have a meaningful conversation when one side is drumbeating Halliburton, war for oil, Cheney, Hitler, digital brownshirts, he betrayed this country, our soldier are terrorrizing women and children, as bad as nazi's and pol pot, and have you heard about Abu Ghraib?

Face it, the Dems and the MSM weren't interested in a discussion, still aren't.

jack

Pete

By now everybody knows that the invasion was about nothing except creating a rallying point for a weak and duplicitous presidency. Most republicans have known this almost from 2003. They simply didn't care about the truth. What they cared about was using the fear of weak-kneed Americans to bolster this very aggresive presidency so that they could get what they figured was there part of the bargain. For some it was the appointment of supremes to limit abortion. For others it was simply to lower their taxes at any cost to anybody.

Few will forget that the religious right was the principle enabler of this presidency and this horrible group of ignorance-celebrating neanderthals will soon be barred from meaningful political discussion. No need to pitty them. They did it to themselves. If one lives in a state where belief in some arbitrary assertion is given greater weight than what is observable and falsifiable then one is doomed to unwittingly create the conditions for ones demise.

But the folks that you and I criticise here, at least most of them, will likely keep clinging to beliefs (of all kinds) because they are too weak to partake in self examination let alone a nonbiased examination of the world and universe around them.

clarice

Jack:By now everybody knows that the invasion was about nothing except creating a rallying point for a weak and duplicitous presidency.

Wasn't it prescient then of Bush to have persuaded Congress to pass a resolution in 1998 making regime change in Iraq national policy and to have ghost written all that stuff by Dem leaders emphasizing what a threat Saddam was to our national security?

clarice

Jack--try this on for size before you get too disappointed. Pro-war Lieberman is now the most powerful man in Congress. He's a Dem but very pro-war.If the party crosses him on this he can switch and take the majority status with him. (Better that he should be the key player than that stupid putz Chafee.)

Pofarmer

What they cared about was using the fear of weak-kneed Americans to bolster this very aggresive presidency so

whoa, whoa, whoa, what about "My Pet Goat" and all that?

You guys fry me. Either Bush is a simmering idiot or an evil genius.

Get over yourselves. Really.

jack

Clarice

You have already tried that nonsense. Nobody was biting then and they sure as hell aren't now. There
is no need to keep selling you snake-oil because you will never collect on your end of the bargain.

clarice

Yeah, pofarmer, can you believe it Bushitoer let there be an election and forgot to set the Diebold machine so that it would only vote Republican.

Jack, from Kelo to affirmative action to gay marriage, whenever the people have had a chance to vote on it, they are voting conservative. If you think that Chafee was more pro-war than Lieberman, or Webb more anti-war than Allen, you are in for an eye-opener.

The moonbats are out even if the Dems are in.

You still are a man without a party.

(Don't worry they'll raise your minimum wage a bit, though..)

jack

Pofarmer Po Po Pofarmer

I didn't say president. I said presidency. But of course your "believing" nature is to be expected to interfere and color everything you do, including something as simple as reading.

But nevertheless Bush is an idiot. Stupid is as stupid does and boy does he do stupid well.

clarice

Enough to beat those geniuses, Gore and Kerry.

jack

Clarice

As I said. You will never collect on your end of the bargain. This blog is now officially dead.

clarice

Really? You have the power to end it? Amazing. You sound like a toddler I know who thinks when she raises her arms at the seashore she makes the tide roll in.

clarice

One last thing, Jack. We are in a real war, one that we will be fighting for decades and all but the truest loonies know that..Now that they are in power, the Dems will act more responsibily for they have no other choice. Before that, they could play another tune for idiots.

anonymous

This blog is now officially dead.

Posted by: jack | November 09, 2006 at 10:56 PM

Syl

I think there are some very graceless election winners that should actually, you know, read the Constitution.

Listen, this is not a dictatorship. The President can say all he wants to. The President has, has no power. The President is a, a perception of power. And he’s lost that power in this election.

said in an interview with NPR....

John Murtha has some learnin' to do. John Murtha was not elected President. George Bush is the Presdident. John Murtha is just a member of Congress. Congress does not make foreign policy.

Congress CAN control the funding for the President's policy but those who would cut and run from Iraq are not in the majority of even the majority of Congress. Nice try though.

Murtha--take a civics course! Or, better yet, move to a country with a parliament.

shaman

This blog isn't dead,I just got here.

Clarice:

We're getting to the point where they would even take you to fight the 'decades' long war.

lonetown

This blog is dead????

WTF????

Talk about stupid is as stupid says. The trolls apparently are a little sensitive to criticism.

Bob

"This blog is now officially dead."

Yeah Jack, and next we'll all start whining how we all need to move to Canada, 'cause it's just so unbearable to be living in the same country as Pelosi... give it a rest moron.

To be honest,(something liberals have a hard time with) this blog will blossom as we watch the moonbats scream for impeachment and the immediate withdrawal from Iraq, while the Democrats fall back to their plan of talking tough but doing nothing. Watch as we go through 2 years of classic liberal double speak... I guess they still have to give the moonbats hope. But maybe by '08, the NYT will be out of business... at least the traitor business.

hoony

It amazes me that the nutroots actually believe the results of this election reflect a mandate for radical change. They've convinced themselves that the republicans who lost were beaten by democrats who share their "values".

The reality based community is really a cartoon based community, they stand for nothing and fall for everything.

Extraneus

I think we give Democrats too much credit when we assume they believe the things they say about the so-called "war." They chose a strategy to undermine Bush and the new government in Iraq in order to accomplish what they just did, and as disgraceful as it was, it worked. We can trumpet the "new media" all we want, but their allies in the old media unquestionably made a difference. Personally, I blame Bush for not fighting them as aggressively as they deserved.

And let's not forget...

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...”
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

"And they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen.
"There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq. His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us.”
W. J. Clinton, February 17, 1998

" He has used such [chemical] weapons before against soldiers and civilians, including his own people. We have no doubt that if left unchecked he would do so again..."
W.J. Clinton, December 19, 1998


Posted by: Other Tom | August 11, 2006 at 06:29 AM

Pofarmer

Jack

You can beleive anything you want. Doesn't make you not an idiot. BTW, I posted a question down below to dear Liddy. And I'll expand it to you, pete, whoever wants to answer. It's easy to be in opposition.

What do you stand for? Hmmm. That would be interesting.

sirroberthope

Pete,
"escalating violence and the rising US troop deaths (which IIRC were about 100 in October).

You mean Ramadan.

Lamont08

What does he stand for? He stands for understanding the people who hate us, one can not reach common ground without understanding what is necessary for us to give up for a perceived enemy to like us. We need to find out what it is about us that causes so much hate and we need to change it. It is that simple.

We need Ms. Albright in the State Department again, and not ...

[EDITED]

PeterUK

Clarice,
"The moonbats are out even if the Dems are in.

You still are a man without a party.

(Don't worry they'll raise your minimum wage a bit, though..)"

Not if he works for Nancy Pelosi.

PJC

Jack: Before you pronounce on the stupidity, or otherwise, of the President you yourself should at least learn how to spell simple words like 'pity' and 'aggressive'; oh, and whether the word you meant o use is 'principle' or 'principal'. Failure to do so tends to undermine your standing in the matter of stupidity pronouncements. In fact, it makes you look like the moron. Have a nice day.

Pete

Yeah, but Ramadan comes evey year. Bush has been pumping in Iraq a Billion plus dollars every WEEK for how many years now?

PeterUK

"What does he stand for? He stands for understanding the people who hate us, one can not reach common ground without understanding what is necessary for us to give up for a perceived enemy to like us."

They don't like,liberals,communists,gays,Christians,Hindus,Buddhists,Zoroastrians,ancester worshippers,any who do not regard Allah as the one true God,democracy,the rule of common law,adulterers,uppity women,revealing dress code,popular music,alcohol,drugs,lending money for interest,those who don't submit,I'm sure there's an orange jump suit in there for you somewhere Jack.

hit and run

This blog is now officially dead.


True. So very true. No reason to hang around here any more. Time to move on.

Hey, you go on ahead, we'll catch up with you later - we're just gonna stick around and turn off the lights.

PeterUK

Pete,
There was the Ramadan offensive,a little re-run just prior to the mid-term elections,just to help boost the Democrats

Patton

I am confused...

haven't the Democrats announced a timetable to cut off funding for the war and removal of the troops?

I can't believe the liberals will let one more dime of funding go toward the liberation of Iraq...I mean what are elections for anyway.

The voters have spoken!

lurker
Yeah, but Ramadan comes evey year. Bush has been pumping in Iraq a Billion plus dollars every WEEK for how many years now?

So what's the point. It was and still is necessary to win the war against terrorism.

SunnyDay

jack seems a little bitter for someone whose party just won. Seems to me he should be out celebrating, instead of trolling on a dead blog.

PeterUK

Patton,
That is why Pelosi is redefining the definitions,"Situation Solved" sounds so much better than "Cut and Run".
What is amusing is that the respect they Democrats claim they will "regain" on the world stage will be as nothing,everyone will be sniggering and laughing up their sleaves.
Any future Democrat president will face a nuclear armed regional super power ,Iran,and an economic giant China,both of whom will know that America can be beaten.You will have lost face in the eyes of two cultures where saving face is all important.

Appalled Moderate

TM:

Given the billions of dollars, the time, the effort, the comission of US diplomatic capital, why on earth would Iraq NOT be an issue in this campaign or something worthy of coverage in the New York Times? Hm? And why wouldn't the US Congress failure to provide anything in the way of meaningful oversight over the policy fiasco presided over by Bush be a major issue? And, finally, given the opportunity to report on problems in our Iraqi misadventure outlined in an NIE, why wouldn't the NYRT do that? Heck. I think any news outlet -- and that includes Fox News -- would report on the leaked content of an NIE, to the extent conclusions relate to policy. If you want to complain about timing, stick to Foley, where there is at least an argument.

Complaining about the information you receive from biased media , in the end, is really stupid. The active thinkers here can glean the information and chuck the bias. The real problem with bias in new stories, is not in the information provided, but the information concealed.

And, finally, Iraq touches a lot of people, whether you like it or not, and those people do not always like to be touched. I have friends in the guard called up to serve there. My brother is quite happy he is in the naval reserve, because he is unlikely to get sent. A couple of weeks ago, getting Mexican in a tiny Georgia town, I overheard Momma explaining why Daddy had to leave the country, and why they would not be seeing Uncle Bobby again.

You don't escape Iraq, even if the NYT puts the story on page 2.

By the way, reports of the death of this blog are greatly exaggerated, though it does load a little slow sometimes.

Patton

If we are to take them at their words..that the liberation of Iraq is actually causing terrorism and we can't win and must turn the country over to the terrorists, I would think immediate redeployment to Okinawa is in order.

PeterUK

SunnyDay,
Jack has seen his dreamboat candidate NotLamont06 or 08,trounced.This was a setback for true believers,the apostate Lieberman triumphed.

Patton

I would think President Bush would invite Pelosi and Reid to fly with him to Iraq so they could personnely tell the Iraqi government that we are leaving, then have a big press conference in Baghdad where Pelosi and Reid lay out the withdrawal strategy and turn the country over to the terrorists.

Its a short one day trip and it would be over. The troops could be home by Christmas if Pelosi and Reid have any backbone to live up to their convictions.

Why would Pelosi and Reid ask ONE MORE soldier to die for a mistake???

Reid

The North and West want to appease terrorism. It's their cities that will be hit when the jihadis come back. Maybe it's time to reconsider secession. They might gladly let the South go this time. At any rate, they sure wouldn't put up much of a fight this time around. Then we Southerners wouldn't need to shed any tears when the inevitable occurs.

PeterUK

Patton,
"if Pelosi and Reid have any backbone to live up to their convictions."

Perhaps an unfortunate phrase in the case of Reid?

TexasToast

ISTM that the deteriorating situation in Iraq has been the default front page over the past 6 months - only displaced momentarily by other "outrages" like Foley, or Kerry's stand up comedy, or some Republican strangling his mistress or stealing the pentagon blind, or even "sillier" things like the suspension of habius corpus and warrentless wiretapping.

You want to blame the times for getting us "back on topic"? Good luck with that.

PeterUK

Patton,
It might be better if Reid and Pelosi told the Sunni that the Democrats are going to leave them to be ethnically cleansed,you know how sensitive they are.

Lurker

It continues to be very clear that the facts fall on the liberals' deaf ears....

PeterUK

Well TT,what exactly are you going to do with Iraq now your party owns it?

SunnyDay

re secession - can we include northern VA in with DC? Really, I mean, they are not Virginians.

OT - did y'all see the Ken Mehlman "outing?" HotAir has the video. Dunno why, but it was edited out of the later airings of the show.

maryrose

I think the next couple of months will be very interesting on this not yet dead blog.
We have the Libby trial in January and we can opine as to when that kerfuffle is shut down. Now we can do whatever we want re: dems; what are they going to do win both houses of Congress? Oh they already did that so President Bush doesn't have to fear any political payback. After Lewinsky is when Clinton got pardon happy -so I say do what you want Mr. President and get your veto pen ready to smackdown any really goofy dem ideas.

hit and run

Consequences...

Khamenei calls elections a victory for Iran

Nov 10 9:03 AM US/Eastern

By Jon Hemming

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's most powerful leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, on Friday called U.S. President George W. Bush's defeat in the congressional elections a victory for Iran.

Dems shrug. Hey, Bush is the biggest threat!

But, there are other potential consequences to perceived US weakness...

Israel Official: Strike on Iran Possible

Nov 10 9:01 AM US/Eastern

By AMY TEIBEL
Associated Press Writer

The deputy defense minister suggested Friday that Israel might be forced to launch a military strike against Iran's disputed nuclear program _ the clearest statement yet of such a possibility from a high-ranking official.

Patton

MI-5 is reporting that they are tracking 30 terrorist plots and some 1600 terrorists in the UK.

Pelosi and Reid could end this threat tomorrow by forcing the cut off of funding for the war in Iraq and the terrorist threat would go away.

These 1600 would go back to their fallafel stands and taxi cabs and professorships.

Why have they still not acted??

Lurker

They are probably waiting until the Democrats lose their majority to the Blue Dogs / Conservatives in 2008 before attacking us. That way, the democrats will not get the blame.

lurker

Guess TexasToast, pete, Jack, et al, have no qualms about paying higher taxes to help people stay on Welfare for the rest of their lives.

Guess TexasToast, pete, Jack, et al, have no qualms about seeing about 9/11.

lurker

If Murtha, Pelosi, and Conyers all decide to pull the US troops home, can Bush vetoe that bill? And the democrats do not have enough votes to override the veto?

lurker

And no, the public does not have the right to full access to intelligence and military information.

Florence Schmieg

The only thing worse than a sore loser is a sore winner. (Especially when their ideology actually lost). Emmanuel used his Clintonian triangulation to fit the candidates to the district he was after. So he chose pseudo-Republicans running as Democrats in Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina, etc. These guys are really conservatives. I'll give it to the Dems, they played to win not maintain some type of ideological purity. If the right doesn't recognize this, they are in for many losing election cycles.

TexasToast

lurker

GWB remains commander in chief - he still decides when the troops come home. The congress only has a blunt instrument - funding - which they are highly unlikely to use with US soldiers in harms way.

Its still your ball PUK, the defense just stiffened a bit.

Sue

TT,

I sorta knew you guys wouldn't take the ball. You play defense better than offense. I wonder what those voters who voted for democrats will think when the Iraqi war continues as before? Who will they punish this time?

TexasToast

Sue

Us "taking the ball" would involve defunding or impeachment - both of which seem a bit over the top. Taking responsibility without power is really stupid - ask the generals who refused the Central Command when they were told that Rummy was still goint to micromanage the generals in the field directly.

Martin

Repubs in 2008.

This is still a Republican war as long as Bush is president.

PeterUK

Sorry TT,the augeries are not good,the Democrats used the blunt instrument of funding to get hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese murdered.The Democrats state that the Iraq campaign is illegal and immoral,how on earth can they keep funding that which they oppose?

"I mean, the point is, is that our presence in Iraq, as viewed by the Iraqis and by others in the region, as an occupation is not making America safer. ... So what is being accomplished by our being there? A responsible redeployment outside of Iraq ..."
Nancy Pelosi.

Withdraw troops...check.
Cut funding...on the way.
Vietnam Redux.

lurker

Heh, Martin, don't forget that the majority of Congress voted to invade Iraq. It is not a Republican war and never will be.

PeterUK

Martin,
"This is still a Republican war as long as Bush is president".

Are you saying the Democrats are not going to fulfil their responsibilities of congressional oversight?

Sue

Us "taking the ball" would involve defunding or impeachment

That is what those who voted democrat are expecting. That is what they voted for. The natives will get restless if they do neither.

Sue

This is still a Republican war as long as Bush is president.

No it isn't. It was never a republican war. But it is damn sure a democratic 'situation' to be 'resolved' now. Ask Pelosi.

Sue

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111000147.html>McGovern

LINCOLN, Neb. -- George McGovern, the former senator and Democratic presidential candidate, said Thursday that he will meet with more than 60 members of Congress next week to recommend a strategy to remove U.S. troops from Iraq by June.

SunnyDay

Hey, they really are turning it into Viet Nam. OH, wait, no, it's the Age of Aquarius. I think I have my headband and beads in a box in the attic. :)

lurker

Worse than Vietnam War. Why? Because of Islamofascism.

PeterUK

Sue,
Pelosi,McGovern,what part of we are "cutting and running" is TT not picking up from the leadership?

To remove US troops by June,withdrawals will have to begin now,when they have gone,what exactly will congress be funding? At least they could let the engineers dig the mass burial pits before they leave.

Sue

WASHINGTON - Democratic control of Congress, public dislike for the
Iraq war and the departure of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld could open the door for a policy shift in the conflict, but early maneuvering for the 2008 presidential election could slam the door shut.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061110/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_democrats_iraq>Source

For politics, these democrats will allow the war to continue? But, forgetting that amazing fact (that the author of the article doesn't seem to care about), why on earth would ending the "conflict" slam the door shut in 08 for the democrats?

Don

Actually the 2008 campaign is fast approaching. Republican candidates are going to have to take a stand. So are Democrats of course.

Except Dems can lambaste Bush with impunity. Hardly traitorous btw as "running against Washington" is de rigeur.

Repubs are going to have to blast Bush or stand with him, probably making everyone uncomfortable.

The only thing that can save Repubs is winning the damn thing in the next year. So Bush better get busy.

Patton

""Sue

Us "taking the ball" would involve defunding or impeachment..""

NOT SO,

It simply requires not bringing up for a vote any fuinding bill.

You can NOT vote for the 87 Billion before you don't vote for again.

Don

"It was never a republican war."

Except for all that 'a vote for the Dems is a vote for the terrorists' crap, eh?

Now that Repubs got their asses "thumped", suddenly the Dems are made the generals.

Except for the warnings against oversight hearings so that Dems can figure out what the hell is really going on, I might buy this bs.

PeterUK

Of course,there is a difference between the Vietnanmese who chose to drown quietly trying to escape and a Sunni who has lost his family to a death sqad,the latter is likely to celebrate his diversity by revenge,

Sue

Except for the warnings against oversight hearings so that Dems can figure out what the hell is really going on, I might buy this bs.

What do you mean? Really going on? We know what is going on. A situation that needs to be resolved. However Pelosi decides to resolve it, she has over half the voters in the last election breathing down her neck. If it is truly a lost cause, a wasted effort, a situation to be resolved, bring them home immediately. They are the hypocrites I think they are if they do anything less.

TexasToast
With unmistakable pride, President Nixon appeared on TV to claim that he had finally won all the terms needed to achieve what he had sought for four years: 'Peace with honor.'... The ultimate vagueness of the settlement is that it enables the contesting parties to read it as they see fit. Time Magazine - From Paris Peace in Nine Chapters Feb. 5, 1973.

A bit of revisionist history, PUK? We were out of vietnam in 1973 after the ARVN had sucessfully blunted the 1972 Year of the Rat offensive (with the substantial support of US airpower). No one, from Gerald Ford on down, wanted to reinvade in 1975 when the NVA repeated that offensive. The NVA had planned for a 2 year campaign in 1975 - it only took two months.

A "Nixon Victory" in Iraq ought to be acceptable to everyone, n'est pas? What is the alternative - perpetual occupation?

PeterUK

"Except for the warnings against oversight hearings so that Dems can figure out what the hell is really going on, I might buy this bs."

Why,didn't the Democrats get the leaked briefings from the NYT? How can people who know so little leak so much?

Sue

They are the hypocrites I think they are if they do anything less.

To expand on that thought I had...that they used the War in Iraq for political gain to begin with makes them the hypocrites I knew they were to begin with. By keeping our troops there after the election is over, for political reasons, makes them diabolical.

Sue

A "Nixon Victory" in Iraq ought to be acceptable to everyone, n'est pas? What is the alternative - perpetual occupation?

You are one of the voters that Pelosi should have breathing down her neck. I hope you hold her feet to the fire.

Sue

But, he said: "With the scandalous defeat of America's policies in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon and Afghanistan, America's threats are empty threats on an international scale."

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-11-10T140135Z_01_L10266591_RTRUKOC_0_US-USA-ELECTIONS-IRAN.xml&src=rss&rpc=22>Source

Looks like the Iranians think the democrats now own the war.

PeterUK

"A bit of revisionist history, PUK? We were out of vietnam in 1973 after the ARVN had sucessfully blunted the 1972 Year of the Rat offensive"

Oh dear TT,another failure in your reading comprhension,
Troops out...check.
Cut funding...on the way.

Removing funding left the South Vietnamses with NO US airpower,supplies were cut,which is why when North Vietnam,when the NV broke the treaty and invaded,SV fell.
Like a dog with a dirty old bone,your party is going to dig it up again.You must be proud.

SunnyDay

MacsMind says it pretty well, although he's making another point.

The fact is that they perpetrated a fraud on the electorate by hooking up conservative democrats in order to get the uber left into power. John Fund was correct in calling it “the new election fraud”. Washington has had enough dishonesty, and this was most likely the greatest fraud in history, and a testimony to the character of the Democrats who as we said over and over again would do anything to regain power. This in comparison to George Bush who withstood his beliefs and principles (like it or not), and didn’t budge even though it contributed to the loss of power. Therein lies the difference.

Believe me it won’t be long before America discovers in horror what they wrought.

Patton

Now the liberals already want to re-write history.

The liberals didn't argue about the 'process' or the 'strategy' in Iraq, they were very clear:

1). Liberating Iraq was a mistake and should not have happened..even though alot of us voted for it.

2). Staying in Iraq to support freedom is the main CAUSE or terrorism today and thus leaving Iraq to the terrorists will help to win the war on terror.

3). American troops are the problem, the ones that terrorize, torture and act like Pol Pot, etc.

I don't know how they can turn around now and argue that the terroizing troops that are making terrorism worse should stay in Iraq.

Patton

Yes, PUK, but the two million dead Cambodians sure showed the Republicans. Democrats know how to get people killed.

You have to admit after the Democrats allowing the North Vietnamese to kill a Million South vietnamese and send millions more to re-education camps, death camps, etc.
And after the further death due to the Democrat strategy, of two million Cambodians, PEACE WAS AT HAND!

Concentration camps tend to be very peaceful places you know...look at Iraq under Saddam, it was very quiet and peaceful and never on the news as Saddam killed a couple million and sent 1/6 of the population scurrying for their lives...BUT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO SEE IT ON THE NEWS.

Don

Hey SunnyDay-if it's fraud you're after:

How about when Repubs won office on their promises to downsize government?

Patton

"""Except for the warnings against oversight hearings so that Dems can figure out what the hell is really going on, I might buy this bs.

Posted by: Don """

So your saying the Democrats had no clue what they have been talking about these last 6 years??

PeterUK

Patton,
Do you think the DNC holds a "Dead Pool"?

Patrick R. Sullivan

That 70s show is baaack:

--------quote-------
McGovern will present his recommendations before the Congressional Progressive Caucus, a 62-member group led by Reps. Lynn Woolsey and Barbara Lee.

"The best way to reduce this insurgency is to get the American forces out of there," McGovern said. "That's what's driving this insurgency."

McGovern told the audience Thursday that the Iraq and Vietnam wars were equally "foolish enterprises" and that the current threat of terrorism developed because _ not before _ the United States went into Iraq.

McGovern's plan _ as written in his new book, "Out of Iraq: A Practical Plan for Withdrawal Now" _ also calls for the United States to remove hired mercenaries from the region, push for the removal of British troops and establish a temporary transitional force, similar to police, made up of Muslims from the region.

"I've talked with a lot of senior officers _ generals and admirals _ in preparation for this book, that say this war can't be won, that the problems now are not military problems," McGovern told reporters. "There isn't going to be any decisive victory in Iraq."
---------endquote--------

Don

Patton- just one example-how many Iraqi army units are fully trained and ready to roll.

I mean-no Shiite infested ready to betray corps-but really ready to go troops? What are the problems encountered in training them-besides the fact Parsons built a literally shit-filled headquarters (which we only know about b/c of the Inspector's office-which Repubs terminated in one of their last acts).

Any idea? The Repubs never bothered to ask-so how the hell would Dems know?

But if you're going to plan to win this thing-these are the sorts of things you might like to know.

TexasToast

PUK

There is a good bit of difference between defunding ARVN and defunding the US Army and Marines on the ground. Reintroducing US Air power in 1975 may have delayed the inevitable, but that is all it would have done.

As to our options now in Iraq, ISTM we flood the country with troops (that we will have to find somewhere) in an attempt to squash the insurgency and directly control more real estate – or we try to speed up the “Vietnamazation – er, the “Iraqization”

It is quite interesting how close GWB's - “We're going to help this government become a government that can defend, govern, and sustain itself, and an ally in the war on terror.” - sounds to Nixon’s “Peace With Honor”. Both are vague enough to be invoked under a variety of factual situations. GWB has already declared victory once – I don’t see anything stopping him from doing it again.

That actually gives me some hope that we will be out of Iraq sooner rather than later. I doubt even GWB is expecting to fund the Iraqi army and police indefinitely, once they reach some squishy level of readiness.

Patton

Don Says "How about when Repubs won office on their promises to downsize government?
""

SEE DON, NOW YOUR CHANGING THE RULES.

When Republicans try to reduce the rate at which the Democrats want government to grow, the left would be screaming that it was a huge cut - except if it was something like Defense.

So if Democrats project that government should grow by 14 % per year and Republicans say NO, on 7% growth, then indeed by Liberals standards Republicans CUT government.

SO REPUBLICANS HAVE CERTAINLY CUT THE AMOUNT OF GOVERNMENT WE WOULD HAVE HAD IF THE LEFT WAS IN CHARGE. Just look at the lefts perscription drug plan which was THREE times more expensive, thus a huge Republican CUT occurred from the lefts projected growth.

Let's not change the nmormal liberal accounting habits to score points.

Sue

That actually gives me some hope that we will be out of Iraq sooner rather than later.

Some hope? The democrats ran on that. That is why they will be in power in January. If your side doesn't deliver, what then?

Patton

Don says: """Patton- just one example-how many Iraqi army units are fully trained and ready to roll."""

You mean trained by the terrorizing, torturing American Pol Pots?

Are you saying that the Republicans would not allow the Democrats to go to Iraq and visit these units, talk to the Iraqis, etc.? Are you saying Democrats have been banned from CENTCOM headquarters where they could have sat in on daily briefings?

just what conspiracy are you charging?

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