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December 09, 2006

Comments

SteveMG

Oy, so to speak.

Isn't Zawahiri a Sunni?

My understanding is that the Egyptian Brotherhood, from which bin Laden and Zawahiri take much of their Islamist worldview, was/is Sunni.

Qutb was a Sunni Islamist.

Hell, this qualifies me to run the Middle East desk at Foggy Bottom for some country.

SMG

Forbes

SMG: Makes you over-qualified to chair the Intelligence committee, but then that's probably a feature of the committee on "intelligence", and not a bug.

Pete

This is really bad news. We are already paying the price for the President (Bush) and Secretary of State (Rice) who were ignorant and are getting on the job training.

I hope the guy has good aides.

Cecil Turner

We are already paying the price for the President (Bush) and Secretary of State (Rice) who were ignorant and are getting on the job training.

Heh. Compared to this guy (or Pelosi), who've been holding forth on the war without the first bloody clue who the main players are, Bush and Rice are unmitigated geniuses.

Pete

I'm sure that Bush knows a lot more now than he does six years ago (when he flunked a reporer's quiz). But the damage has already been done.

SunnyDay

Yeah, might want to check out the qualifications of the folks you lefties have been listening to.

windansea

LOL...the fire puppies are not happy

www.firedoglake.com

TCO

Sunni are orthodox and the Shia are heretical and believe in some form of blessed or favored priests. Shit. I learned that in a course 20 years ago. I'm ashamed. I'm butt-ashamed. That we have people this clue-less leading us. Clearly, the US did not take the 9-11 attack seriously. As we continue to have dick-lickers like this leading us. This is unsat. These congressmen should be hazed.

Ranger

Well, there's a shock, a democrat who's not only corrupt, he's ignorat too. No wonder his kids had to find jobs with a company trying to get government contracts. They are probably chips of the old (ignorant) block.

clarice

Here's a bigger shock__A few weeks ago someone (I think a NYT reporter) interviewed the head of the FBI's c/i office and that person didn't know the difference either..

TCO

jeezuz. We. are. too. stupid.

Pagar

"But the damage has already been done."
The damage was done long before the current
President took office.
The damage could had been controlled if proper action had been taken the day Jane Fonda arrived back in America after having her
picture published world wide sitting on a
North Vietnamese AAA weapon. It wasn't. The damage could still have been contained if the
proper action had been taken after John Kerry stood in front of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations on 22 Apr 1971 and admitted that he had met with America's enemies, during wartime, in Paris and that he had adopted and promoted the enemies'
positions. It wasn't.
When he walked from that Senate hearing, with no repercussions, every leftist in America knew that they could support any terrorist in the world, with no fear of the
consequences from America's laws.
When classified information is published
in major newpapers and no action is taken,
When US senators give advance warning of America' planned actions to known terrorist supporting countries and no action is taken.
When John Kerry is nominated by the Democrat Party to be their candidate for President, the American leftists and the terrorists have no reason to believe that America has committed to winning.
Certainly, nothing in the 2006 elections
would lead any one to change their minds.
" But the damage had already been done."

BumperStickerist

Reyes Ipsa Loquitor

Little Greek Humor there.

Latin.

Whatever.

clarice

HEH!

OT: US Secret Service tapped Diana's phone the night she was killed.

The American secret service was bugging Princess Diana's telephone conversations without the approval of the British security services on the night she died, according to the most comprehensive report on her death, to be published this week.
Among extraordinary details due to emerge in the report by former Metropolitan police commissioner Lord Stevens is the revelation that the US security service was bugging her calls in the hours before she was killed in a car crash in Paris.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1968664,00.html

Why?

Oh..remember it was CLinton who was President then.

Festus

Dearest Clarice: Clinton? You are such a scamp. HE never would have paid attention. Best, Festus

JJ

Glad to hear this topic mentioned.

Because after removing Saddam, the factions of Iraq were bound to start pounding one another, and there has been not much discussion of this happening.

If a comparison of Iraq to Viet Nam has to be made, compare the govts' approach to the groups that have to get along. And lay most of the blame for this on the Libs, where it is deserved due to five years of BDS and little insight.

Ric Locke

Oh, it's worse than that.

It's extremely doubtful that there's a Shi'ia in Baghdad who doesn't have a first-degree relation who was a guest at Abu Ghraib during the Hussein Administration. Those people got eyes put out, skinned alive, genitals burned, etc. etc.

American soldiers were criticized around the world for torture -- of Sunni (Ba'athist and Waha'abi) prisoners, but now that the Left has completely disappeared Saddam's, ah, peccadilloes, nobody but nobody is interested in punishing the Ba'athists who ran the place for thirty years and took a toll on Shi'ia.

The result is Muqtada al-Sadr. Poor Shi'ia of Sadr City and environs are convinced that the West is defending the Ba'athists, so they attack American soldiers as the most immediately-available representatives of the West. Black irony: American soldiers are dying because the Shi'ia think they are thereby hurting Michael Moore.

Regards,
Ric

Freddy Hill

Well, on a lighter note:

“Why do you ask me these questions at five o’clock? Can I answer in Spanish? Do you speak Spanish?”

“Pocito,” I said—a little.

“Pocito?! “ He laughed again.

I suppose that Reyes' reaction to this may be justified. "Pocito" does not mean "a little..." it means "small well"

"Do you speak Spanish?"

"Pocito"

"Say what?"

I'm sure that Jeff Stein said "poquito"; the error in spelling is understandable. And in any case not in the same league as Reyes' confusions.

sam

12/09/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 1)
Spc. Vincent J. Pomante III, 22, of Westerville, Ohio...assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, Giessen, Germany...died Dec. 6 in Ar Ramadi, Iraq

12/09/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 1)
Capt. Travis L. Patriquin, 32, of Texas...assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, Giessen, Germany...died Dec. 6 in Ar Ramadi, Iraq

12/09/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 5)
Spc. Yari Mokri, 26, of Pflugerville, Texas...assigned to the 3rd Brigade Special Troops Battalion, 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division...died Dec. 6 in Hawijah

12/09/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 4)
Pfc. Travis C. Krege, 24, of Cheektowaga, N.Y...assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii...died Dec. 6 in Hawijah

12/09/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 3)
Spc. Joshua B. Madden, 21, of Sibley, La...assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii...died Dec. 6 in Hawijah

12/09/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 2)
Cpl. Jason I. Huffman, 23, of Conover, N.C....assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii...died Dec. 6 in Hawijah

12/09/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 1)
Sgt. Jesse J.J. Castro, 22, of Chalan Pago, Guam...assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii...died Dec. 6 in Hawijah

12/09/06 AP: Saddam Hussein's nephew escaped from prison in northern Iraq
A nephew of Saddam Hussein serving a life sentence for making bombs for Iraq's insurgency escaped from prison Saturday in northern Iraq, authorities said. Ayman Sabawi...fled the prison some 45 miles west of Mosul in the afternoon

12/09/06 ABCNews: New Pentagon Plan at Odds with Iraq Study Group's
The recommendations are not complete yet, but sources familiar with the reviews conducted by Joint Chiefs Chairman Peter Pace and National Security Adviser Steven Hadley, tell ABC News that military leaders will advise the president...

12/09/06 columbusdispatch: Ohio soldier killed by explosive in Iraq
Vincent Pomante III...three-year hitch with the Army would be up Jan. 9. The U.S. Army specialist and tank gunner was killed Wednesday by an improvised explosive device. His family is still waiting to find out exactly how and where he was killed.

12/09/06 MNF: Marine killed in Al Anbar
One Marine assigned to Regimental Combat Team 5 died today from wounds sustained due to enemy action while operating in Al Anbar Province.

12/09/06 wwaytv3: Two North Carolina soldiers killed in Iraq
the parents of another soldier, Specialist Jason Huffman of Conover, say he died yesterday when a bomb went off while he was in his Humvee in Kirkuk...Karen and Gary Huffman say their son was three weeks into his second tour in Iraq

12/09/06 Reuters: U.S., Iraqi troops seal off Haditha - residents
U.S. and Iraqi troops have sealed off the city of Haditha in Anbar province, in the heartland of the Sunni insurgency, and have warned residents to keep off the streets and stay indoors, officials and residents said on Friday.

12/09/06 AFP: Ten bodies found in Baghdad
Overnight, Baghdad police found the bodies of 10 people who had been trussed up and shot dead at close range, then dumped in the street.

12/09/06 AFP: School headmaster killed in Baghdad
In Baghdad, primary school headmaster Yussif Faraj al-Shimari was shot dead in the restive southern neighbourhood of Dura, while two more people died in mortar attacks on the mixed district of Adhamiyah, police said.

12/09/06 Reuters: Roadside bomb kills policeman in Rashad
A roadside bomb wounded a policeman when it exploded near his patrol in the town of Rashad, 40 km (25 miles) southwest of the northern city of Kirkuk, police said.

12/09/06 Reuters: Insurgents blow up school under construction in Mosul
Insurgents blew up a school under construction in the Yarmouk district of Iraq's northern city of Mosul late on Friday, police said. The source said no one was harmed in the bombing.

12/09/06 Reuters: Mortar rounds kill 2 in Baghdad's Kadhimiya district
Mortar rounds killed two people and wounded at least three when they landed on Baghdad's Shi'ite district of Kadhimiya, police sources said.

12/09/06 AFP: Gunmen kill four people in Baquba
Police said four people were killed, including a 10-year-old girl, in separate and indiscrimate attacks by insurgent gunmen on crowds of civilians in Baquba, north of Baghdad.

12/09/06 NYTimes: Iraqis Near Deal on Distribution of Oil Revenues by Population
Iraqi officials are near agreement on a national oil law that would give the central government the power to distribute current and future oil revenues to the provinces or regions, based on their population, Iraqi and American officials say.

12/09/06 VOA: Seven Killed, 36 Wounded In Iraq Car Bomb Attack
Iraqi police say at least seven people have been killed and more than 35 others wounded in a car bomb attack near a revered shrine in the Shi'ite holy city of Karbala.

12/09/06 AP: Sunnis condemn U.S. military attack
On Saturday, about 1,000 residents of al-Ishaqi village in the volatile province of Salahuddin held a funeral for the 19 dead, shouting slogans such as "Down with the occupiers," "Long live the resistance," and "There is no God but Allah."

12/08/06 Reuters: Mistrustful Baghdadis keep one eye open at night
As the sun sets and residents of Baghdad's Hurriya district hurry home, Firas Hasan and his friends grab their Kalashnikov rifles and head onto the deserted streets.

12/08/06 Reuters: Schools out as Baghdad bloodshed kills education
Now, sectarian venom has struck deep at the heart of Iraq's education system as militants from both Sunni and Shi'ite groups attack schools, universities and personnel.

12/08/06 AP: Marine unit risks death to save a sick Iraqi baby
Two Oklahoma Marines are being credited with helping save the life of a seriously ill Iraqi baby in a mission that left one of the Marines dead and the other seriously wounded. Corporal Jared Shoemaker of Tulsa and Lance Corporal Cody Hill..

12/08/06 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty
Cpl. Dustin J. Libby, 22, of Presque Isle, Maine, died Dec. 6 while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar province, Iraq. Libby was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force...

12/08/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualty
Spc. Nicholas R. Gibbs, 25, of Stokesdale, N.C., died Dec. 6 in Ar Ramadi, Iraq, of injuries suffered when he came in contact with enemy forces using small arms fire while conducting observation and security operations.

12/08/06 AP: Mortar attack on the outskirts of Baghdad kills 25 people, police say
Three mortar rounds hit a Shiite residential area on the outskirts of Baghdad on Friday night, killing 25 people and wounding 22, police said. The rounds hit about seven houses in the tightly packed, poor area of Al-Nehrewan...

12/08/06 Reuters: Gunman attack crowd in Amil - kill 1, wound 3
One person was killed and three wounded when gunmen attacked a crowd in the religiously mixed area of Amil in southwestern Baghdad, police said.

12/08/06 Reuters: 4 killed, 8 wounded in Baghdad mortar attack
Four people were killed and eight wounded in a mortar attack on the religiously mixed Naharwan neighbourhood in southeastern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry official said.

12/08/06 Reuters: 18 bodies with gunshot wounds found around Baghdad
Police said they found 18 bodies dumped in different areas of Baghdad, all with gunshot wounds and many with signs of torture, an Interior Ministry official said.

12/08/06 Reuters: Iraqi general killed in Baghdad
Brigadier General Humam Nuri, head of customs in the city of Najaf, was killed along with his brother in Baghdad on Friday, Interior Ministry sources said

12/08/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 2)
Sgt. Jay R. Gauthreaux, 26, of Thibodaux, La., died Dec. 4 in Balad, Iraq, of injuries suffered in Baqubah, Iraq, when in improvised explosive device detonated near his vehicle while on patrol. Gauthreaux was assigned to the 3rd Heavy Brigade...

12/08/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualties (part 1)
Cpl. Billy B. Farris, 20, of Bapchule, Ariz., died Dec. 3 in Taji, Iraq, of injuries suffered when an improvised explosive device detonated near his vehicle while conducting escort operations. Farris was assigned to the 5th Battalion...

12/08/06 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty
Lance Cpl. Brent E. Beeler, 22, of Jackson, Mich., died Dec. 7 while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar province, Iraq. Beeler was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve’s 1st Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Division, Lansing, Mich.

Ellers Ellison "Ellsberg" McWilson


Jealous much?

Silvestre Reyes has had his statements read on the floor of the House, has a law degree, and is author of the New York Times Best Selling Book “How Would A Patriot Tell The Difference Between Sunnis and Shiites?” His comments often lead to front-page stories on most major newspapers in the country. And he has one of the most-read blogs on the Interent, after just 9 months of blogging. I love how all you super-important rightwing bloggers attack me, I mean him, just to get traffic.

I bid you GOOD DAY, sir.

Clyde

In the end, the only thing that's important is that we know that there are Sunnis and Shiites and they hate each other's guts, but also that they both hate OUR guts because we are infidels. It's like having a nest of rattlesnakes and a next of copperheads in the vacant lot next door. They're both poisonous snakes, and equally dangerous, and you don't want to invite them into your yard. And in the end, it doesn't matter which variety of Muslim/snake commits a terrorst act/bites you, because you're still equally dead.

Sam Paris

"I mean, this is like wondering whether the Vatican City is Protestant or Catholic: its structural features tell you what you need to know, given any understanding at all of the history of the religion in question."

This, of course, assumes that the people in question understand even our own history.

Good luck on that.

sm

sam
thanks for basically flaming the thread. i guess that is suppose to replasce intelligent analysis, and converstaion. what an idiot. sorry, but its a war, people die. the mere fact that people die doesnt not prove anything about the war being right or wrong. will some fo you on the left figure that out?
fyi- i have family and friends over there. i dont need some self righteous leftists posting names of strangers to make a silly political point.

Daddy

Such fundamental ignorance about this from both sides of the aisle in DC is honestly frightening. I am certainly no genius, but how in the heck can you be an adult in this country since 9-11 and not know some of this stuff? Here's a little jingle for our elected Solon's on the Intelligence Committee to try to help them sort it out:

ON THE SUNNI SIDE OF THE STREET

Grab your cloak and get Jihad
Leave Osama on the cavestep
Just direct your feet
To the Sunni side of the street

Can't you hear the rat tat tat
Of those AK-47's
Just more Al Queda Brethren
Trying to get to Sunni Heaven

Now Congressmen I stress
Sunni's believe Shia's are not blest'
Cause Shia's have followed Muhamed's son-in-law Ali that pest
Since 661 when he got slaughtered...
near Karbala

Fundamentalist Saudi's equals Sunni's
And they think Shia's are looney as Moonies,
And Shia's live out in the Iraqi boonies,
But not on the Sunni side of the street.

Serenity Now

Compared to the House Intelligence Committee chairman thinking al-Qaeda is "predominantly ... Shiite," this is small potatoes, but: why does an editor for Congressional Quarterly think "begs the question" means "raises the question"?

Judith

Going to the way back machine....I thought the argument for not going into Iraq is that the two (AQ and Saddam) were diametrically opposed to each other (one being sunni, one being "secular" and shiite) that they wouldn't colloborate to attack us...so, no need to attack Iraq?

Lou Gots

All those keystrokes, and nothing said about what the difference between Sunnis and Shi'ites might be.

Not surprising, as we have been conditioned to thing of the groups an "sects, with "religious" distinctions. Many of us try to draw analogies to categories with which we are familiar, say, as between Roman Catholics and Protestants, as seen above.

Actually such analogies are misplaced: there is not a significant theological difference between these what are more properly identified an political fanction. They are not quarreling over theological or even ritual matters, but rather over who has the right to be capo di tutti capi of what we would call a Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization. Even the name, "Shi'ite," means "member of the Ali family" referring to the loser in one of their early mob hits.

Sure there are differences in emphasis, style and structure, related to a century and a half of struggle for control, but don't look for "religious differences" as the civilized world understands them.

triticale

By the way, during the time the fued was going on, Hatfields and McCoys were marrying each other.

Ric Locke

"secular and shi'ite"? Buuuwahahah.

That's actually a quasi-religious difference even as we understand it. Shi'ia are "mystics" (a technical term in theology) where Sunni are not, and some Shi'ia are Messianists ("Sevener" vs. "twelver"). To the extent that one or the other has a secular tradition, it's the pre-Qutb Sunnni.

If you want something that actually fits the way we think, call the Sunni "libertarian" and the Shi'ia "monarchists". For Sunni the way you become an imam, a teacher, is to study and write something that's accepted by the others -- anyone can (theoretically) do it, even you or I. Shi'ia have a hierarchy of hierophants, mullah and ayatollah and all that, analogous to (but not the same as) bishop/cardinal etc., and one advances through it by politics. The Shi'ia claim the system is inherited from Imam Ali; the Sunni darkly suspect it's borrowed from Zoroastrianism, and they're probably correct. Note that the Iranians have watered-down versions of Zoroastrian festivals as tradition, much as our Christmas is basically European Pagan with a Christian overlay.

Unfortunately (for us) the Sunni/Shia split and subsequent hatefulness led Islam to declare that no new interpretations were permitted, and since then the range of things one can do to become an imam has been notably restricted. If the tradition were still alive, modern "moderate" Muslims could write haditha that would steer Islam toward cooperation with Industrial societies, and such would become as much a part of Islam as anything from the ninth century. If Muslims start arguing about opening that up again in a serious way, you may permit yourself a moderate amount of hope.

Regards,
Ric

windansea

WASHINGTON -- Zalmay Khalilzad, who was announced this week as leaving as U.S. ambassador to Iraq, is the leading prospect to replace John Bolton as envoy to the United Nations.

President Bush was reported by aides as looking for someone who approximates Bolton's combination of toughness and diplomatic skill and has tentatively decided on Khalilzad. A native of Afghanistan, he has served in government posts dating back to 1985 and is the highest-ranking Muslim in the Bush administration.

Bolton successor

maybe this guy has a clue?

SunnyDay

Way OT - listen to Rumsfeld's Town Hall talk on the Pentagon channel. The whole thing is really good, but about 1/3 of the way through, someone asks him about the conflict our country is going through now.

His answer is priceless.

SunnyDay

ut oh

italians

testing

SunnyDay

doh

SunnyDay

testing

Knemon

"Saudi Arabia is Sunni"

(mostly)

boris

Italiacto!

SunnyDay

thank you!!

Bruce Hayden

The Shia Revival: How Conflicts within Islam Will Shape the Future by Vali Nasris a must-read book for anyone trying to understand what is going on right now in the Middle East, and, in particular, in Iraq, Iran, and Afganistan.

Unfortunately, the book leaves of with Zarqawi still alive and causing trouble, and with the Shiite militias still under control. Nevertheless, the book does an excellent job at describing the differences between Shia and Sunni, who is who, what the relationship is between everyone, etc.

Barbara

Clarice,
Re FBI C/I person not knowing sunni vs Shia, I have no knowledge of this particular attribution, but C/I is counter-intelligence, spying on the spies, not CT,counter-terrorism. There are a lot of acronyms, and it does get confusing, but CI is a totally different division with their own areas of specialization.

Bruce Hayden

I think that a lot of the fog in the middle east can be lifted if you keep that one point straight - who is Sunni and who is Shiite. Not always (the Syrians are oddities here), but to a very great extent. The other thing that should be remembered is that the leader of the Sunni faction is Saudi Arabia and its Puritanical (and I use that word intentionally, as they are very similar to our own Puritans), while the Shiite faction is led mostly by Iran. No surprise, since Saudi Arabia hosts most of the (esp. Sunni) Moslem holy sites and they have the money to fund all sorts of mischief, while Iran is the largest Shiite majority country.

One of the geopolical realities seemingly ignored by the U.S. at least from Carter through Clinton, is that much of what has happened in the Middle East during that time was instigated by our allies, the Saudis, in an attempt to encircle and neutralize Iran and Shia Islam. At least partially attributable to that are: the Taliban; Pakistan's nuclear weapons and support of the Taliban, etc.; support of Saddam Hussein up until his invasion of Kuwait, esp. in his war with Iran; al Qaeda; much of the unrest right now in Iraq (through support of the foreign jihadists and Baathists); some of what has and is happening in Lebanon and Syria right now; etc.

Patton

BOXER LEADER MEETING:

Boxer: Now I want to talked about this radical religious sect in the middle east, that Al queda one.

Reid: Sunni?

Boxer: No, not soon, right now, what is their religion again?

Dean: The religious nuts are called Jews.

Reyes: Ahh....Shiite!

Boxer: OK, its right through there, Congressmen Reyes, but come right back when your done 'shiiting' as you seem to like to call it.

Murtha: We say Crap where I'm from, but you mexicans can use what ever word you want.

Boxer: Enough already, now what's the radical nuts name that wants to run everything?

Reid: Hussein Obama??

Kennedy: A mexican with a Lama? Man was I drunk or what?

Boxer: ENOUGH! Lets talk Shiite radicals!

Murtha: Let's just call it what it is.... CRAP, not Shiit!

Boxer: Ohh my Lord in heaven help me.

Secretary: Speaker Boxer, Hillary on Line 1.

billy missle

Mr. Patton:
Letterman on line 2.
Now that was funny!!

clarice

Barbara, I am fully aware they are different, but there is no reason to believe the terrorists have no moles in our intel , secret operations and critical businesses and the head of C/I should know Sunni from Shiite and Hezbollah and its sponsers from Hamas and its.

Having said that, I reviewed my notes and the one ignorant of the distinction was Hulon, head of the FBI's national security branch. Not a good sign.

clarice

Steve Gilbert reports that 3 of the Lying Imams turn out to be close relatives of the Pakistani leader of a terrorist group, Lashkar-e-Toiba. http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/3-flying-imams-are-close-relatives-of-top-paki-terrorist

[quote]

According to the findings of American Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Hafiz Masood, Haif Hamid and Hafiz Hannan came to the United States in 1988 on a student exchange visa to Boston University and studied there till 1990, but stayed on, violating his visa status.

The sources say although the three imams have been released on bail, they are still facing legal proceedings and there are chances of their being deported to Pakistan especially after their family relations with Hafiz Saeed have been confirmed.

Both Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jamaatul Daawa are generally considered to be pro-Osama and an anti-US groups which have been banned by the US State Department in 2002 and 2006 respectively.[/quote]

Semanticleo

"Bush and Rice are unmitigated geniuses."

That, is to say, Moe was smarter than Curley or Larry.

As to culture confusion, Arabs are primarily
a culture of merchants. In other words, THEY ARE SALESMEN!!!. They live in the pragmatic present. What do I have to do or say to get what I want right now. Kinda like Corporate businessmen. Do you have the stomach to do what's necessary. Much easier for sociopaths or those blessed with an abundance of delusion genes, but still possible for the avaricious swine who sell
their wares oblivious to the long term consequence of same.

Semanticleo

BTW;

One swine, in particular, had me puking up my oatmeal as he reinvented his Irag stance on MTP this morning. If you want to understand
the difference between Shia and Sunni, ask Ken Adelman. > Retardo>

libertexian

Can you tell the difference between a sunni and a shiite?

And a mexican?

In a crowd?

On the border?

At midnite?

With nite vision goggles?

Rick Ballard

Patton,

Nice job. Remember that "Cold Cash" Jefferson is coming back. Working him in next to "Abscam Jack" Murtha shouldn't be too hard.

Tic,

If a Stupid Leftist Hall of Fame is ever constructed you should be allowed to mislay the cornerstone.

clarice

Scratch the story on the flying imams--Steve Gilbert says it is an error.

windansea

Cleo loves her little ivory tower

Don't worry, when you get a job you'll understand more about the world

here's lesson number one

1. Everybody is a salesman, including academics and mullahs, they're all selling something.

TCO

Hey kids. This is no laughing matter. Leaders of intelligence branches or military branches or relevant congressional committees, should have the basic knowledge that you can get from a half hour with Brittanica or Wikipedia. This is a real problem. I'm not demanding that they know the intricacies of every Balfour-like treaty that the Middle East has had. We're asking for basic knowledge. Clyde, you need to study your enemies. It helps you kill them. Knowing the traits of the copperheads and the traits of the rattlesnakes HELPS regardless of whether you are bent on extermination or trying to live in peace.

I know Rummie has a brain. I'm worried that George doesn't and that Dick was arrogant about what knowledge was required. And the Democrats are no smarter either. Add onto that all the chair-warmers and middle-managers at CIA (equivalents of the lady who got the NASA astronauts killed) and you have a presecription for a real mess. The one good thing is that we DO NOT face a WW2 type threat.

SunnyDay

No jokes allowed. Outrage, we need outrage.

Semanticleo

Marmalard;

Coming from you, that is a bona fide compliment.

sam

sm

"thanks for basically flaming the thread. i guess that is suppose to replasce intelligent analysis, and converstaion. what an idiot. sorry, but its a war, people die. the mere fact that people die doesnt not prove anything about the war being right or wrong. will some fo you on the left figure that out?
fyi- i have family and friends over there. i dont need some self righteous leftists posting names of strangers to make a silly political point."

Apparenetly you do need me to point out that they all died in a preemptive war that preempted nothing. If that fact does not matter to you then what does!? It's easy to be self righteous when the wrongnesss of the 27% percent of you that still support this war was apparent over four years ago.
With family like you who needs enemies (aka islamobogeyman)!

You are an incredibly slow learner.

SteveMG

Sam:
Apparenetly you do need me to point out that they all died in a preemptive war that preempted nothing.

Please, Sam. Who is to blame for those deaths? Bush alone?

The Iraq War Resolution (Link) listed more than 20 reasons for the removal of the Iraqi regime.

Sorry, my friend, the cause of this initial conflict lies in the actions in Baghdad, not those in Washington.

Was the action wrong? In hindsight, yes. But we are there now and we need to create some type of stable, trans-tribal/sectarian regime. Both for our security and for the safety of the Iraqi people.

The killings you cite (and it's getting tiresome, okay) are the result of those who are opposed to the above goals. If we were to pull out, the killings wouldn't stop. In fact, they would likely increase.

And would you be listing those deaths as well?

SMG

Patton

Sam is doing a great service. He continues to list brave Americans and those fighting on Americas side that ACTUALLY FULLY SUPPORT THE WAR AND THE COUNTRY.

What he should be listing is all the politicians and pundits that supported the war, and then cut and ran and trashed our military servicemen and women.

These soldiers are all volunteers that have had every opportunity to not go to Iraq if they so choose. They didn't have to enlist, re-enlist, etc. unlike when the Democrats drafted everyone except their buddies.

It would be nice if Sam list the support taking care of Saddam Hussein then trashed America and the troops like Durbin, Kerry, Kennedy, etc. But Sam won't trash the cowardly scum because he's on their side.

Sam believes our service people are evil and are always a minute away from torturing a baby to death. You see this all the time with Liberals, they trash the troops, spit on them, call them torturers and baby killers and terrorists, but when it suites their political goal, they don't hesitate to try to act like they fully support those very same people they just trashed.

Patton

Kerry is a prime example of Samism.

He simultaneously manges to repeatedly say how much he suppots out troops, but allways gets in a dig at them, either they are terrorists, torturers, sadists, war criminals, or too stupid to do anything else.

But in the mind of a Kerry or a Sam, they don't have a moral compass that points out their complete and utter inconsistentency.

Kerry in the same breadth can tell you he proudly wore the countries uniform to torture innocent civilians and doesn't see any problem with the sentence.

Jane

Sam should be tasked with implementing the ISG demand that the liberals get behind this war in order for us to win it. Send him out with Lee Hamilton and let him show us how much he loves this country.

SteveMG

Well, in defense of Sam (partially), these losses we are suffering are just heart breaking.

And I'm just not damned sure at all whether the Iraqi people appreciate what we're trying to do for them.

That, above all else, is I think what is souring the public about this action. That the people we are trying to help don't seem to be thankful for it.

And, no, I'm not talking about all the Iraqi people. Or most of them. But too many of them.

And yes, Syl, I could be completely wrong. I hope the hell I am.

SMG

TCO

The Iraqis need to deal with their own country. We need to pull out. We are not the world's policeman. If killing happens, so be it. There are other parts of the world, where it happens also. We are not the cop on the beat for the entire globe. The key to us, should be minimizing collateral damage to ourselves, allies, etc. It is too late to save face. We need to take that hit. We may even need to take some hit to our interests.

boris

We are not the world's policeman.

That line is Pearl Harbor and 911 all over again.

If we aren't winning the war on terror it's because we're trying to be the world's social worker. Sometimes what's needed is an old fashioned cop. Elliot Ness. Jim Malone.

If we're not going to let somebody else do it (we're not) then it falls to us.

MayBee

The Iraqis need to deal with their own country. We need to pull out. We are not the world's policeman. If killing happens, so be it. There are other parts of the world, where it happens also. We are not the cop on the beat for the entire globe.

Killing will happen, and those advocating pull out need to acknowledge that publicly and loudly and enter that into the debate.
As for not being the world's policemen, I'm not sure anybody agrees with that. Nobody wants us where they don't want us, and everybody wants us where they want us.

The key to us, should be minimizing collateral damage to ourselves, allies, etc.
Except, of course, that Iraq is supposed to be our ally.

It is too late to save face. We need to take that hit. We may even need to take some hit to our interests.

Why in the world do we "need" to take a hit? What good does that do us? Why the need to see your own country humiliated?

SunnyDay

Hey sam, http://www.dalecarnegie.com

Might help you learn not to insult the people you are trying to persuade.

Patton

No we are not the worlds policemen...but the Democrats want to force us to be the policeman and not the military.

If anyone were really interested in defeating our enemies there would be alot more dead Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians, North Koreans.

We take all the bad press and all the worlds BS but we don't have much to show for it. I would be much happier if we had 100,000 more troops in Iraq and they were holding territory, kicking ass and killing every 13th century idiot with a gun.
I'd also be happier if we had blown up all of Irans Nuke facilities and half their military capbility and taken out half of Syrias army as well.

At least then the world could hate us for a reason. Maybe they would even kick us out of the UN.

I'd like to know why no one on the left has proposed hiring mexicans to fight in Iraq. Don't we expect them to do the jobs Americans won't do?

Patton

Can you imagine if some General in WWII said to the president, we just can't win in Egypt, or Syria or Italy? etc.

MayBee
No we are not the worlds policemen...but the Democrats want to force us to be the policeman and not the military.

You know Patton, that is a great point. Even when we were preparing to go after the Taliban in Afghanistan the vociferous counter-argument was that it should be a police, not military, action. I still hear that.
What is this global police force that acts at our behest, I wonder?

Barney Frank

The problem seems to be that most people simply don't take the threat seriously. Mankind is nothing if not uneducable. We are apparently perpetually doomed to throw away chances to deal with looming threats while they are still manageable and instead wait until we are faced with another worldwide conflagration before we will act decisively and with any fortitude.

I think Santayana could have shortened his quote up a bit and been more accurate in the process. "Man is condemned to repeat history" seems about right.

TCO

We do not have the treasure to "be the world's policeman" (pacify large amounts of hostile territory for continuous periods of time) given our scruples. We do not have the will (it's a moot point if we should...I would say not...but it's a moot point) to pacify by reprisals, example killings and the like.

Rumsfeld was right. As soon as we had Saddam, we should have "solved him" and then moved out. We can not police the world efficiently. We can "make examples" of Saddam and the Taliban and such. This "making examples" of leaders has much more impact to dissuade Qaddafis and the like then occupation of Afghanistan or Iraq.

How many Taliban have we tried and hung? We are really lagging on the post 9-11 mission.

TCO

All of you all, who worry that we get bashed for whatever course we take, need to get over it. That is going to happen. No course of action will make people say great things about us. Deal with it. Now. What do we want to do? Questions of interest, even questions of morality are allowed here. But "not having people say bad stuff about us" is childish. It's like a kid on the playground with no heart.

TCO

Patton: Agreed. But we are not going to take decisive actions at this point. There is not the support for it. So given that, we should not take these half-measures. They only serve to reduce our capability to take decisive, military, "non-nation-building" actions. The policing reduces us tactically, economically, diplomatically and in internal support.

TCO

Maybee:

"Killing will happen, and those advocating pull out need to acknowledge that publicly and loudly and enter that into the debate."

Agreed. The pull-outerists need to admit this. The "stay-in-there-itists" need to admit the likelihood of 1000+ deaths per year and $60 billion/year FOREVER.

"As for not being the world's policemen, I'm not sure anybody agrees with that. Nobody wants us where they don't want us, and everybody wants us where they want us."

Get over caring about the conflicting damned if you do/don't issues of other people's views of our country. The fact remains that we can't be the policeman of the world. Even if we decide to be the policeman of Iraq (forever), we certainly can't be the policeman of all unsettled areas and will have to pick and choose where we decide to be the policeman.

"Except, of course, that Iraq is supposed to be our ally."

1. It is a misnomer to speak of "Iraq" as a monolithic entity.
2. Certainly we should consider the issues of parties in Iraq (and even innocents) within our calculus. That does not mean we should decide to police the country if it chooses not to, itself.

"Why in the world do we "need" to take a hit? What good does that do us? Why the need to see your own country humiliated?"

I feel no "need" for my countries humiliation. I think that it is likely a part of any realistic endstate. We should not think of it as such an awful thing that we refuse to look at reality and make decisions. The Bush "nation-building" has had the same end that Democratic "nation-building" had. I would rather get out and maintain a force that can do damage in Iran or Russia or NK. Would rather stop the 1000+ deaths per year. Would rather have the Iraqis settle their affairs. If that means that our nation suffers some "face" loss it is no big deal. Not as long as I know that we have the assetts that we do and the proud men in the military that we do. That is not going to evaporate just becuase we stubbed our toe with a bad Bush decision to touch the tar baby.

MayBee
I would rather get out and maintain a force that can do damage in Iran or Russia or NK.

What are our interests in being able to do damage in Iran or NK, except for being the world's police? Or Russia too, for that matter.
Iran most likely won't hurt us. NK doesn't have the ability to hurt us.
If we stopped policing on behalf of Israel, South Korea and Japan, by golly we wouldn't even have to worry about NK or Japan anymore.
Certainly Russia isn't going to attack us either. Why should we worry if they jail people in their own country or poison spies in far-away England? We aren't the world's police.

Don't you mean that you don't want us to be Iraq's police, but the places you'd like us to worry about, we should prepare to fight?

MayBee

***worry about NK or Iran anymore.****

boris

The "stay-in-there-itists" need to admit the likelihood of 1000+ deaths per year and $60 billion/year FOREVER.

Stupid lies get tiresome. If the US was serious, Iran and Syria would have pulled a Lybia by now and it would have been over already. Why isn't the US serious? Because you're giving terrorist sponsor states another way to win besides beating us in a fight.

We do not have the treasure ..

The US made war on Germany and Japan and came out of the great depression to do so.

It's not that you don't want to spend your money. It's not that you don't want to fight. You're telling the rest of us to stop because you don't like what we're doing.

If you ever succeed, you're not going to like what happens next. Guarantee.

TCO

Maybe: NO! Aggressive war is NOT policing. Policing is when you have restrictive ROE. When you occupy territory and chase IED makers around. War is when you take a regime and destroy it's hold on power. War is going in, defeating Saddam's army, and hanging him. Policing is staying around.

Boris: If you want to make the case for expending treasure forever fine. Go make that case. I disagree with it. I think that we retain a better means of attack and defense by striking against centers of gravity rather then by trying to police select peieces of ground, whose main differentiation is just that we happened to have deposed their rulers.

Also, on the pedantic point: Yes, we do have the treasure to stay in Iraq forever. We DO NOT have the treasure to police every unsettled part of the globe.

MayBee

Policing is staying around.

We sure have stayed around Japan, Korea, Germany and Kosovo.
It seems to me we made a commitment to militarily defend all of these places, but the difference between them and Iraq is that Iraq needs active protection these days.
Does it become policing when we have to do something besides park our ships in their ports, or sit and glare across the DMZ?
It seems to me you advocate protecting a country right up to the point where they need protecting, and then it becomes policing, and hey we don't do that.

Were we policing Iraq during the no fly zone years?

boris

Won't have to if we're serious. You aren't.

boris

TCO

TCO

Boris: We defended those countries from external enemy in a conflict calle the Cold War. A battle of hegemons. One I served in. Do you really want to have that kind of occupation for the next 40 years, btw?

TCO

Maybee: No. We were not policing Iraq by having the No-Fly zone. Maybe(e) if I explain this enough, you will start to learn something about the spectrum of conflicts. Better yet, go get a subscription to USNI Proceedings and think about each article. Write a synopsis of each. An evaluation of which articles are meritorious and which not (and why). Your learning will not only be about the scale of conflict or larger military-political issues, but will be a better ability to think critically.

clarice

Effort underway to oust Maliki and replace him with someone not beholden to Sadr..And al-Sistani is supporting it.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/008673.php

Rick Ballard

TCO,

A 60B insurance charge on a 12.5T economy comes to less than half of one percent per year. You pay more to insure your house - which doesn't even generate any income unless you're renting out a room.

The 1,000 deaths that Boris mentions have a much higher value and the current ROE should be adjusted to reflect that value if we expect to maintain a volunteer force.

Once that is done there is no reason why OIF cannot be continued indefinitely.

I don't have any opinion as to which scorpion in the bottle deserves to win. Feeding both of them suits me just fine. I refuse to put a higher value on any muslims life than they place upon their own and I refuse to grant them any status above that which they grant non-muslims.

It would be nice if those appointed to chair our "intelligence" committees had a clue as to which version of the murder/slavery cult was which but I'm not sure that it's absolutely necessary. If Silvestres is the best pick that the Dems can find then they're just going to have to live with their choice. It's no great trick to find Reps as dumb as Silvestres. You have to drop to Conyers, Frank, Stark and Rangel to get to the pure unbeatable stupidity.

Rick Ballard

Clarice's link to Captain Ed and a link to the Yahoo/AP story behind the post.

Brief interview with PM Maliki:

Reporter - "Prime Minister, do you recall the scene in the Godfather when Michael kissed Fredo full on the lips?"

PM Maliki - "Yes, certainly. Who could forget that."

Reporter -

PM Maliki -

Reporter -

PM Maliki - "Oh."

TCO

Rick: we are 3 years into this thing and are not using the free-er rules of engagement. We got butt-locked over Abu Ghraib. I don't think we've hung a SINGLE captured criminal combatant or terrorist. And Bush has been in charge the whole time.

Just as an intellectual experiment for me: Make a choice between the continued path as it is (KBO or Keep Buggering On) and departing.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTY5NjhhNDQ1ZjExMjg3ZjdjZWFlMmQwZmE5OTRlYjY=

TCO

Clarice: Interesting development. I wonder to what extent it is a result of direct US pressure or instead actions by the parties realizing that the US will be leaving (the 2006 elections being the key indicator that KBO is off the table...but many other things ISG, Rummy memo, etc. also showing the shift). I also wonder if the change will be helpful or not.

Rick Ballard

That's not much of an intellectual experiment at all. The Brits banned slavery in 1833 and spent a considerable amount of treasure and effort to see it through. Our contribution to that effort was completed in 1865 with a non-neglible expense.

Putting an end to the dreams of the murder/slave cult we are facing could take that long and cost that much. It would be worth it to our grandchildren in the same manner that Truman's facedown of China and the Soviet Union was worth it to us.

We've taken arms against a sea of troubles and the only question is whether we have the will to end them. I mourn the loss of every American who has given their life in this struggle but I won't demean their sacrifice by suggesting that we cut and run in the face of an enemy whose main attribute is cowardice.

As long as the oil ticks are going to bed every night wondering if they're next, we're winning. The current run on Depends at the site of the most recent meeting of Arab foreign ministers indicates that we are.

clarice

It's hard to tell which is the greater impetur for Maliki's ouster, assuming the rumor is true.

Maybe, it's everything and don't forget the sharpest knife in the drawer , the guy our feckless State Dept and CIA tried to destroy, Ahmed Chalabi, is back there now.

clarice

***impetuS*******

TCO

Rick: KBO is a waste. We should keep our soldiers and treasure for attacks against centers of gravity. Not tie them up on nonessentials. Read some Sun Tzu.

TCO

Going in every couple years and eliminating a regime (and letting the country fall into barbary...if it does) sends a much more chilling message to enemies (Libya, etc.) then does getting ensnarled in the same tar baby for every. Do you think Khaddafi was intimidated by the Iraq occupation? Or the blitzkreig military elimination of Taliban and Hussein as RULERS?!

Rick Ballard

Clarice,

If I'm counting correctly an accord between the United Iraqi Alliance (Hakim - 113 votes) and the Iraqi Accord Front (Hashemi - 44 votes) can bring down the government. If they can rope in the Kurdistani Alliance (53 votes) then a very solid ruling coalition would be created. There are 275 seats in parliament so 138 is a magic number.

The Kurds mainly want their autonomy (especially about oil deals) confirmed, so the possibility is definitely there. I don't believe that the PM has to be a member of parliament so Chalabi may have a chance.

The Islamic Virture Party (Sadr - 15 votes) can actually bribe/threaten another 15-28 votes into acquiesence so he's definitely a player. Unless he's dead, in which case his value will drop sharply.

TCO,

I'm afraif that I haven't the time to overcome the limitations exhibited. Best of luck.

Aaron

TCO,

What you are advocating is the use of punitive raids without any further nation building as a way to use our military force without getting bogged down in counter-insurgency.

This might be a decent argument if you plan from the very beginning of a conflict to do it that way...say, we decide to pop Iran, blow up the nuke plants, kill the scientists and then leave...with a minimal plan to leave some other entity in control after the regime change. It might also work say against very large countries where you could never occupy the nation - say Pakistan.

But, would this work well in practice or also have blowback? I think it might have major blowback.

I would suggest if we have to do another Iraq, we simply plan better, and especially on the political side. We should have our DeGaulle/Free French ready to go, along with a "temporary" constitution designed to maximize stability, etc. If Iraq had had an oil trust, Chalabi in charge, and single member district who knows what might have happened.

BTW, nothing says that even with better planning you still don't get a mess...

TCO

aaron: that has always been my point and I have always thought Bush was miserably naive with his nation building rap. Did nation-building suddenly become a good policy because "our guy" was doing it? No. Same deal with pharma giveways, etc. etc. Just because a Repub doesn't something dumb, doesn't change it from being dumb.

TCO

Aaron: You can not just "plan" your way into not having messes. You have to realize that there will be messes and just change the objective from mess-avoidance (which is great but not the key objective) to spanking bad guys. Did we worry about pacifying the Barbary Coast after spanking Emirs? No.

sam

"Might help you learn not to insult the people you are trying to persuade."

SunnyDay

What makes you think I am trying to persuade you of anything. Ever play chess?

MayBee

Your learning will not only be about the scale of conflict or larger military-political issues, but will be a better ability to think critically.

I'm afraid it is just you I was trying to understand.

But now I see the rest of what you have written, and it gives me a much better idea where you are coming from. Are there articles in the USNI Proceedings that advocates

Going in every couple years and eliminating a regime (and letting the country fall into barbary...if it does) [to] send[s] a much more chilling message to enemies

That seems to me not to be our standard practice.

sam

"He simultaneously manges to repeatedly say how much he suppots out troops, but allways gets in a dig at them, either they are terrorists, torturers, sadists, war criminals, or too stupid to do anything else."

Patton (dream on wuss)

Point out where I have once called our troops "terrorists, torturers, sadists, war criminals, or too stupid to do anything else". Since there will obviously be no response from you on this I will just say in advance: You are a pathetic liar. But that is all you folks know how to do. Lie your way into a war. Lie about how it is going. Lie about the number of deaths. All the while never ever accepting responsibility for what you, the present day equivalent of the Nazi supporter, have supported. Dig yourself in deeper by all means please do.

TCO

Maybee, the policy of Republicans was NOT nation-building and was decidedly against it, from 1975 until 2002 (with a minor misadventure in Somalia). My stated point of view is more extreme and harsh then typical. But certainly nation-building has not been typcially endorsed as practical until recently, by most military and conservatives.

Oh...and if you knew anything about USNI, you wouldn't ask if they ever advocate one side of a debated position. They will. (Whichever side.) The magazine is noted for allowing that.

MayBee

I didn't ask if they advocate one side of a debated position. I asked if they advocate Going in every couple years and eliminating a regime (and letting the country fall into barbary...if it does) [to] send[s] a much more chilling message to enemies

Also, you say: But certainly nation-building has not been typcially endorsed as practical until recently, by most military and conservatives.
Agreed, although we typically have endorsed rebuilding any countries we've destroyed. We made the commitment to Iraq that we would help rebuild the country, and we have made and kept that same commitment with many other countries in the past. Are still keeping that commitment.
So pulling out of Iraq because it's gotten so difficult, and using the excuse that we don't want to be the world's police, or that Republicans don't like to nation-build seems horrifyingly insincere (at best).
And changing our MO henceforth, to begin tearing down countries specifically to not nationbuild is indeed, as you say, harsh and extreme. Feel free to advocate it, but don't treat me like I have no critical thinking skills because I don't agree with it. Most people don't, I suspect.

Extraneus

Seems to me the war planning that didn't happen -- and which is obviously essential to any U.S. military action, especially one related to our national interest -- was how to defeat the leftist threat within our own shores. There are many who wish us ill, but these are the only foes who can defeat us, and the rest of the world knows it.

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