David Gregory, Where Are You?

Ari Fleischer testified yesterday that he leaked the Plame news to three reporters - John Dickerson, formerly of TIME and now with Slate; David Gregory of NBC; and Tamara Lipper, formerly of Newsweek and now with the FCC (I think - how many Tamara Lippers with a press background are in DC, anyway?).

This situation is fraught since John Dickerson is a former colleage of imminent prosecution witness Matt Cooper, and David Gregory is a current colleague of imminent prosecution witness Tim Russert.

John Dickerson has posted a vigorous denial at Slate.  David Gregory, however, is strangely silent (he gave David Corn an "I can't help you, sorry" when his name was first bandied about in the opening statements.)

Interesting.  Perhaps the NBC lawyers have duct-taped Mr. Gregory, pending Tim Russert's testimony.  Perhaps the Slate lawyers have released Mr. Dickerson, figuring that if TIME has a problem, so what?

And might Gregory have a different tale from Dickerson?  Well, per this Dickerson account, there was a lot of coming and going by the reporters and government officials; we are talking about the President's trip to Africa, not a formal press conference.

And, as noted earlier, Libby himself apparently over-confessed, telling Fitzgerald that he had leaked about Plame to Glenn Kessler of the WaPo (Kessler denied it, and Fitzgerald believed him.)

I think the public would love to hear from David Gregory.  Tamara Lipper, too, and as a press spokesperson she ought to be reachable.  Well, maybe.

MORE:  Who watched the NBC News last night (check it out here!)?  I love him, but... this Brian Williams blog coverage is simply not acceptable, except perhaps in a tap-dancing instructional video.  He talks about Fleischer's testimony with no mention of David Gregory, and includes this:

At the crux of it is a very simple question: How did Scooter learn that the writer of a newspaper opinion piece was married to an undercover CIA employee? Scooter contends he learned from a journalist. Others contend that he learned the information independently, from within the government, and tried to pass it on to reporters.

"The journalist" has a name, and that name is Tim Russert of NBC.  Grr.

FROM NBC NEWS:  Having watched the video clip, they do not mention Tim Russert, telling us that Libby claimed to have learned about Plame "from reporters".  However, they do give us a shot of David Gregory and explain that Ari named him as a leak recipient.  Pretty cryptic.

Comments

[Pete]

Would love to hear Gregory's story. Are these NBC guys in the news business?

[hit and run]

I hear he becomes blabby when he drinks?

[maryrose]

Gregory:
The bell that hasn't rung..
The shoe that hasn't dropped..
The fat man that hasn't sung...
Russert: Still engaging in bafflegab per orders of MSNBC execs.

[politicaobscura]

"Scooter contends he learned from a journalist."

Mr. Williams,

NO NO NO NO...... Scooter does NOT contend he learned it from a journalist. He contends he learned it from the VP!!!!! He contends he HEARD it later from a journalist....

[Martin]

Pathetic I concur. No wonder Cheney loves those guys.

[Eas]

When I see blabby or blabbermouth, for some reason I think of Malkin. Has she been secretly posting here and H&R is covering up?

[hit and run]

If I am Malkin, I am most certainly hearing it as if for the first time.

[cathyf]

NO NO NO NO...... Scooter does NOT contend he learned it from a journalist. He contends he learned it from the VP!!!!! He contends he HEARD it later from a journalist....

No, politicaobscura, you are the one who got it backwards. Scooter testified that he heard it from the VP and wrote it in his notes, but he only learned it later when he heard it from a journalist.

Sort of like how you heard about the Gen Sherman's long march to the sea in history class, and even wrote it down in your notes, but you didn't learn it, and then years later you saw a fascinating PBS special and now know all about it. Which is how you explain that even though it was in the lecture and textbook back in high school, when you saw it on TV it was "like hearing it for the first time."

What is Rip Van Winkle's dog's name?

[politicaobscura]

cathyf, i think you are using the word "learn" in a different way I am.

Learning of a tidbit of information is not the same as "learning physics".

"Learning a tidbit" implies "for the first time".

Libby learned of it from VP.

Libby heard it later from Russert.

[topsecretk9]

He learned about the wife's connection in terms of the answering they OVP didn't send or arrange any trip.

It's when he "heard" it from Russert or whoever that he realized the wife- who he didn't give **her** too much importance (low level manager type hooked husband up) --OWN involvement was significant enough that all the reporters already knew about her, why?

Probably the bells went off who was doing this:

with Miller
"During this meeting LIBBY was critical of the CIA, and disparaged what he termed "selective leaking" by the CIA concerning intelligence matters."

[JohnH]

Is Clarice blogging the trial today? Where are her comments?
Thanks

[Daddy]

The actual name of Rip Van Winkle's dog was "Wolf." I don't know if that's pronounced with a French accent or not, since I've only seen it written, not heard it spoken.

[Dan S]

Must be "wolfay."

[Syl]

I would imagine if the tidbit was internal only and though not entirely negligible was only a small part of the issues Libby was dealing with, not anything he had any notions of making external---a private matter, so to speak---it would have been a shock to the psyche to have an outsider relay it to you.

I guess the word is compartmentalized. We've all experienced that. A part of your life totally unrelated to another part of your life.

Back in the old days, eighties, if you indulged in online stuff through GEnie or QLink and chatted with a bunch of folks and got to know them when you turned off your machine, they were not a part of your life.

If one day you're sitting watching tv and there's a knock at the door, you open it to find a perfect stranger staring at you. This perfect stranger says 'Hi, I'm DoublePoo!' and DoublePoo is only known to you online, it would be rather a shock to your psyche and a jolt in your worldview.

Two separate worlds colliding.

[Syl]

I can only imagine the thoughts that would bounce around your head. I also imagine trying to recall those thoughts would lead to almost utter incoherence.

[Javani]

I'm checking in.

Any big hits today?

TM, you say Dickerson has a vigorous denial.

A vigorous denial would be a brief "ARi didn't say that to me."

Instead we have couched, subjunctive language from D...

"...I have a different memory."

Soft.

"My recollection is that during a presidential trip to Africa in July 2003, Ari and another senior administration official had given me only hints."

Recollection and hints. Soft

"As far as I can remember—"

Soft.

"and I am pretty sure I would remember it-"

Soft.

"In a piece I wrote about a year ago, I figured that the very reason I'd never been subpoenaed in the case or questioned by any lawyers was that I'd been given only vague guidance and not the good stuff."

That would be two years after the fact. Dickerson's admission that he thought the investigation was after the truth of a leak is innocently charming. Does he really think if Ari told the prosecution that, and the prosecution cared about the leak, they wouldn't have hauled him in to verify? I guess so. Doesn't realize this is a perjury trap case to vidicate the expense of the investigation.

Since Dickerson undoubtedly lurks here, let me give a warning...

If you are not under subpoena already...

RUN AWAY! YOU ARE A FAT TUNA AMID A SCHOOL OF TIGER SHARKS! THE DEFENSE LAWYERS, MAYBE EVEN PROSECUTION, WILL TEAR YOU APART! DO YOU WANT TO BE FURTHER HUMILIATED? TO BE A CENTERPIECE OF THE COUNTER-NARRATIVE THAT DESTROYS THE DARK CHENEY MACHINATIONS/JOE WILSON TRUTH TELLER/BUSH MADE CIA SAY WMD/ DISCOURSE? YOU NEED TO QUIETLY CLOSE YOUR LAPTOP, QUIETLY WALK OUT THE DOOR, AND HAIL A CAB TO THE AIRPORT AND TAKE THE NEXT FLIGHT TO PARIS! "FRIENDS" OF JOE WILL HIDE YOU UNTIL THIS FARCE IS OVER.

[Tom Maguire]

cathyf, i think you are using the word "learn" in a different way I am.

Yes, she is - that would be the difference between the "right" way and the "wrong" way. Having received and reflected upon this admonition myself, it strikes me as quite accurate and helpful - if Libby heard it from the VP but promptly forgot, what does it mean to say he "learned" it?

Why bend words into odd shape? Libby heard it from the VP (or Cathie Martin), it didn't register, then he "learned" it when Rove told him reporters had the story and Russert blabbed it to him. Or so he says, anyway.

[Cycloptichorn]

I find that to be a rather uncompelling argument, and I doubt the jury will believe it either, Tom.

Since we have no way of knowing what Libby actually remembered and what he didn't - and since he has every reason to lie about it - the only information we can use to come up with a decision are the facts of the case which are now known, namely, that the VP (or Martin) told Libby before anyone else. This is the critical piece of information; not Scooter's account of a what point he decided to 'remember' or 'learn' something, but at what point he was told the info.

[danking70]

Has the trial restarted?

Clarice have you passed any notes to Dickerson?

[TCO]

Or maybe he learned it both times and lied about the month of forgetting.

[Appalled Moderate]

What can Dickerson testify to? My memory is different than Ari? Hardly earth shattering. And its not an especially important difference. It is the difference between "hinting around" and saying the thing flat out. Someone hinting around may be toying with the idea of a revelation, and, with the passage of time, may think he made the revelation, when the event only happened in his own mind.

Look, Fitz's case is essentially "when you, Mr. Libby, say you forgot about Plame, that statement is simply unreasonable, and can only be an intentional lie." And that case depends on whether Libby talked to Ari, not whether Ari talked to anyone else. Certainly, any bad memory by Ari is going to be exploited by the defense, because it goes against Fitz's most damaging witness. But, it's not going to be that big a deal.

[Rick Ballard]

DanKing,

Editorialized stenography is available at FDL. Be sure and leave a tip. Mine was "Soybean futures aren't for everybody."

[topsecretk9]

Miller:M He's a lowkey and controlled guy, what he said made me think I was correct. He was concerned that CIA was beginning to backpdal to distance self from unequivocal estimates it provided before the war through a "perverted war of leaks."

Probably the bells went off who was doing this:

with Miller
"During this meeting LIBBY was critical of the CIA, and disparaged what he termed "selective leaking" by the CIA concerning intelligence matters."

[boris]

forgot about Plame, that statement is simply unreasonable

And yet people who already knew about Plame can't seem to remember whether or how they told Libby. Their recollections need props and landmark events and changed over time.

The detail Libby claims he forgot is not the Victoria Secret Flame Spy Woman who Arranged the mission and Selected Joe. The detail He claims he forgot is "we [CIA] sent Joe because he knew the region and his wife works here. Hindsight blindness is conflating the two.

[Javani]

am

"Look, Fitz's case is essentially "when you, Mr. Libby, say you forgot about Plame, that statement is simply unreasonable, and can only be an intentional lie." And that case depends on whether Libby talked to Ari, not whether Ari talked to anyone else."

I like very much how you return the discussion to an actual trial issue. However, although your distillation is right, there is another element--did he lie, or was it unreaonable to "remember" 4 months after the fact, that Russert told him x, and he told Cooper y. So the Gregory/Dickerson connections are important, at lest for innuendo's sake.

But consider Russert now,

Libby said Russert asked him about Wilson's wife or similar..

What are the chances that Libby's recollection is 100% wrong?

So Libby tries to frame Russert? Why pick Russert? He's not a friend of Libby, Libby's contact with him was adversarial, and lo and behold just by "coincidence" the person framed by Libby out of the blue "just happens" to may have known something more about the case via a connection to Gregory and Ari. On top of that, Russert never has given a full denial to all aspects of Libby's claim.

Russert did it, IMO. It was a reporters' trick. Libby was gleeful he blundered onto cover to spread the Wilson's Wife story.

[Syl]

If this was a leak investigation, and fitz is trying to show that the documents subpoenaed were for ANY talks with ANY reporters about Wilson and/or wifey (to counter any notion that Libby would think it was only about Novak), then why wouldn't fitz INTERVIEW Gregory and Dickerson to verify Ari's story?

[politicaobscura]

When a reporter says, "Libby claims he learned of Wilson's wife from Russert", they are clearly implying that he claims to have heard it first from Russert, which is not true.

Libby claims he heard first from VP.

Libby claims he also heard it from Russert later.

Why can't the media just report that? They can go own and talk about the forgetting and the remembering etc. etc., but the for the media to say "Libby claims to have learned of Wilson's wife from Russert" is simply not a true statement.

[brassband]

I guess I'm not following this closely enough . . . but if Ari leaked to David Gregory, wouldn't Gregory almost certainly have passed that along to Russert, his bureau chief? And doesn't Russert deny that he had ever heard this before Libby mentioned it . . . and doesn't Libby claim that it was Russert who mentioned it to him?

[PaulL]

Judy is testifying.

What happened to Clarice?

[Cycloptichorn]

'Why can't the media just report that?'

Probably because they find the idea to be ridiculous, that Libby 'forgot' or didn't process this critical piece of information the first time he heard it. Testimony has shown that Libby was deeply involved in the response to Wilson's accusations; he wasn't simply going to 'forget' a little detail like this.

[Pete]

Why bend words into odd shape? Libby heard it from the VP (or Cathie Martin), it didn't register, then he "learned" it when Rove told him reporters had the story and Russert blabbed it to him. Or so he says, anyway.

Many other things happened in between where Libby had knowledge of Plame. Did Libby keep learning and forgetting about Plame?

[Rick Ballard]

"then why wouldn't fitz INTERVIEW Gregory and Dickerson to verify Ari's story?"

And risk impeaching Russert? Ari first testified in Jan '04. Fitz believed that he had Libby on the hook from day one based upon the FBI interviews done in Oct '03.

There's no way he was going to waste all the effort involved in digging Libby's gj perjury trap by interviewing someone who could impeach St. Russert.

[Jane]

Except Cycloptichorn it wasn't critical. What was critical was that Wilson was lying and undermining the War on Terror, not who sent him on some boondoggle.

[Appalled Moderate]

brassband:

I'm not clear on what Russert's editorial role is with respect to other reporters. Presumably, this will be delved into when his turn comes up.

Politca:

The distinction you are trying to draw doesn't seem that significant in the scheme of things. I doubt we'd be here if Libby hadn't claimed to have forgotten all about Plame until Russert reminded him. The lie that's chapping Fitz's be-hind is not the substance of Libby's conversations with certain reporters. It's the claim he couldn't have leaked becasue he did not remember the information to leak, and all he knew was what he heard from reporters.

[Chris]

"If this was a leak investigation, and fitz is trying to show that the documents subpoenaed were for ANY talks with ANY reporters about Wilson and/or wifey (to counter any notion that Libby would think it was only about Novak), then why wouldn't fitz INTERVIEW Gregory and Dickerson to verify Ari's story?"

And why didn't he ask Richard Armitage if he spoke with any other reporters besides Robert Novak, thereby not learning about the Woodward/June disclosure until after the indictment and Woodward stepping forward?

[boris]

It's the claim he couldn't have leaked

Wrong. He admitted leaking to Cooper. He claims he couldn't have been the SOURCE of the leak.

[Javani]

From Miller via FDL

"F relevance to Wilson

M(iller) People were beginning to focus on Wilson, but Wilson was a ruse, an irrelevance"

Ouch!!

[Sue]

Javani,

I'm trying to decide if those are Miller's words or what Libby said. Can you tell?

[Syl]

Wow. Reading from FDL.

The BIG STORY is in the case BIGTIME with Miller's testimony.

Libby furious that the CIA told administration unequivically that WMD were there, now CIA is leaking various doubts as if these doubts were prominent all along.

------

Wilson's wife involved in WMD stuff. I bet Libby is getting very suspicious SHE'S a part of this in an active way.

I think the lefties should change their accusation.

From 'Outed a covert officer to punish a noble whistleblower'

To 'Outed a CIA officer to punish her for disinformation campaign'.

:)

[Martin]

So Judy didn't admit to the June meeting in GJ testimony after being in jail for 85 days-but then Fitz tells her go see if she scrounge up any other info and she finds her June notebooks!

This is nuts. Who's Fitz's informant?

[danking70]

But how can the "debunker" be an irrelevance.

Especially with that hair.

[Sue]

Unless something was skipped by EW, Fitz didn't ask about July 12th meeting. Is he saving it for redirect? If so, why?

[Martin]

Syl-I've long maintained that Plame was the "whistleblower" Fitz describes as the subject of retaliation, but oh how they scoff.

[topsecretk9]

Clarice--where are you??

---

M I did not testify. I was sent to jail at Alexandria detention center, for 85 days. Shortly before I was released received waiver from Libby and oppty to question him on phone and **you agreed to narrow focus of questioning to mr. Libby** and to the subject matter of Plame Wilson leak.

M Later on, I told him that I had discussed Ms. Wilson, Ms. Plame, **with people**, but that I didn't think I was the target of concerted leak campaign, because I didn't know if there was one. (drinks more water, looks at lawyers, not breathing again)

[John R]

Since plain folks reading this thread have scads of questions, lots of theories, and few firm answers, think what's going on in a juror's mind. Their collective heads must be spinning.

[Sue]

?not breathing again)

Has she turned blue in the face yet?

[Javani]

Martin, it's worse. The magical notes are in a shopping bag!!

""M I found, when I returned to my office, I looked under my desk there was a shopping bag full of my notebooks. Looked through July, picked up June, and discovered entire conversation in June, that I had forgotten about. I happened to be on phone with Bennett, urged him to call you and tell you there was more info""

She also blames, tacitly, Libby for her trial stay. Nothing about her "other sources."

[Barney Frank]

Certainly, any bad memory by Ari is going to be exploited by the defense, because it goes against Fitz's most damaging witness. But, it's not going to be that big a deal.

It's seems reasonable that a juror might consider it a rather big deal given the scenario of, Libby tells Ari something. Ari then tells reporters that same thing. If the reporter(s) then maintain that Ari did not tell them that information it would seem a fairly big deal as his testimony as to what Libby told him is supported exclusively by his memory.
Of course if Gregory testifies that Ari did tell him then it becomes a very small deal indeed.

[Cycloptichorn]

Jane -

'Except Cycloptichorn it wasn't critical. What was critical was that Wilson was lying and undermining the War on Terror, not who sent him on some boondoggle.'

Well, from the point of view of those who were looking to discredit Wilson, it WAS critical. It was and remains the main attack used against him, namely, that he and his wife set the trip up to lie and embarrass the Bush admin. Remember?

Libby was tasked with dealing with the Wilson incident - the incident is dealt with by making Wilson out to be someone who was sent by his CIA wife - and Libby would have forgotten this? Once again I find this to be rather uncompelling.

Martin - It is likely that Fitz had some other evidence that Judy was lying and gave her an out.

[Martin]

Why would Libby want to confirm that Ari did NOT tell Gregory. It's his thread to hang onto a Russert told me defense.