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February 18, 2007

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Syl

Damned good, Tom.

Clear and FAIR.

Bravo!

sylvia

Really, the Libby trial is like infinity. The more you think about it, the crazier it all seems.

tom maguire

Well, I'm going crazy...

sylvia

You can't go crazy. You are the one keeping us sane on all this.

Jay Currie

About twenty years from now a PhD candidate will be writing about Bush Derangement Syndrome and will be looking for an example. This post is that example.

The tragedy lies in the fact that the Bush Administration is partially responsible.It caved to the braying of the 16 words dogs. Had Bush and his people simply ridden out the storm and put their case clearly none of this travesty need have happened.

Which would have been much less entertaining; but our entertainment comes at the expense of a good man. Other good men will take a look at this and decline the offer to serve their country. Which means we all lose.

Let's hope that Scooter wins; not merely because he is innocent but because if he loses we all will.

Daniel

Your review of this case says it all, but there is some context that I think deserves some emphasis.

There is something amiss in the use of a special prosecutor to address possible scandals. It is that the public expects to learn the truth about the scandal from the investigation, while the actual goal of the investigation is to find whether a crime has been committed and to prosecute if it suspects that one has.

This case illustrates that mismatch very distinctly. The actual investigation, as far as I can tell was to look at two potential crimes. One was feloniously giving out information about a secret agent (particularly through leaking information to Novak), and the other was engaging in a conspiracy to punish Mr. Wilson for his claims against the administration, thereby violating his civil rights perhaps as a whistle blower.
Accusations of both of these things were spread widely in the press, and Fitzgerald was appointed as a Special Prosecutor in part to find the truth about them.

Very clearly Fitzgerald interpreted his mandate as to pursue the legal aspect of these questions, and not to inform the public of the truth of the matter, which was what the administration really wanted.

Thus he found out immediately that nobody involved had suspected that Plame was a clandestine employee revealing whose status would be a crime, and that the leak to Novak had come from the State Department apparently with motivation of making it clear that the CIA rather than the State Department had sent Wilson to Nigeria.

There was still a possibility that the Vice President's office had made an attempt to punish Wilson through other statements to the press. There had been reports that Libby and perhaps others in his office had contacted six reporters with information about Wilson and or Plame.

Libby insisted that the motivation for this was to refute the false claims that Wilson had made about his trip. These were that the Vice President had sent him (at least implied by some of Wilson's statements in a speech and as quoted in the NY Times,) that he had debunked the famous 16 words of the President's State of the Union Speech. and that the Administration had surely seen his (oral) report on his trip.

Libby, in his long testimony before the Grand Jury, maintained that the sole purpose of his attempts to speak to the press was to refute the false statements (listed above) that he claimed Wilson had made.

Ultimately Fitzgerald came to the conclusion that no case could be made against anyone in the administration for attempting to punish Wilson and in particular in doing so by revealing that his wife was a CIA employee.

In fact he has informed the public of no evidence that favors the claim that the administration was out to get Wilson, and was trying to punish him.

It must have been evident to Fitzgerald rather quickly that
1. the State Department was the source of the Novak leak.
2. the administration claims about its publicity campaign re Wilson was sufficiently plausible that nobody could be accused of violating Wilson's civil rights with any hope of a conviction.

Knowing this he withheld this information from October 2003 for at least three years.

This had the effect of keeping the pseudo scandal going for three years, through the elections of 2004 and 2006.

To the extent that the information he withheld exonerated the administration from the scandal charges, Fitzgerald's silence was a highly political act.

This context also provides the background needed for judging the materiality of the charges against Libby.

I find it hard to understand how Libby's testimony to the FBI and to the Grand Jury in the matters for which he was indicted affected the investigation.

With regard to Miller, he was the one who brought up the June meeting, and only claimed that he didn't remember anything about it. I am not aware that Miller got the impression that Libby was trying to punish Wilson.
The difference in memories between Cooper and Libby concerned whether Libby said he had heard "the same thing" or said he had heard "the same thing from other reporters". How this difference would affect any decision that Fitzgerald or anyone else would make about the case escapes me.
The difference in the Russert conversation is even wierder. Libby claimed to be surprised when Russert brought up Wilson's wife and Russert denies it.
This is the statement for which Libby was indicted.
I find it very difficult to imagine any investigation obstructed by this disagreement.

This makes me wonder: why were these indictments sought?


Jane

Tom,

That post should be the basis of Chapter One in the book you Must write about this case.

lonetown

Anyone care to comment on whether or not the issue of the appointment of the SP will ever come up again.

It seems an added twist is the apparent lack of standing of the prosecutor, or is it a case where its too late to object if you didn't object in the beginning.

kate

The international left uses the courts to criminalize and destroy its enemies because, so far, it's been very effective.

Notice that Special Prosecutors fail to indict Democrats (Hilary) or give them light sentences (Burger) or no prosecution at all (Jefferson).

The international left is now using courts to criminalize friendly fire incident and indict US soldiers (cleared after extensive US investigations) and US agents (now will these be good agents or bad agents?).

Until this game of using SP and courts to go after political enemies backfires, the left will continue to use it.

Scooter Libby was an honest public servant caught up in a manufactured scandal hounded by a SP who was told from the beginning, by a suspect FBI investigator, that Libby and Rove were the culprits.

Jane

I think as a result of watching this case so closely I've seen some trends that truly scare me, including the attempts to block the conservative point of view.

The left is much better at controlling the dialogue, and if you doubt that look at the handling of the Foley scandel which I think had more impact on the elections than the war. Of course it is easier for the left, because the media is so anxious to take up their cause.

Same thing with special prosecutors. The deck is stacked. The left knows how to capitalize on a disinterested public to the point where it is almost scary.

lilollady

Unlike Rashomon, the Fitzgerald theory of this case is that all four principals (Miller, Cooper, Russert & Libby) recall the facts of their conversations in accurate detail and, of the four, only Libby intentionally lied to conceal these facts. In this context, it’s interesting that the emphasis in the recounted stories is consistent on gossip about the marital link: Wilson’s WIFE, and inconsistent or inaccurate about the organizational link: WMD, CPD, WINPAC ????

kate

Jane-the Foley case was interesting. If I recall the Republicans were starting to make some gains when the Foley case broke (Sept) and according to a leading political blog, the e-mails etc were released earlier in the campaign than planned.

In other words, the Iraq War was not enough of an issue to give the Congress to the Democrats.

The media hammered the Foley episode 24/7 for days. However, after the election, the reason for the loss was Iraq, Iraq, Iraq.

If you want to see Chris Mathhews Head explode have someone say to him:

Well, you know, Chris, this election was not about Iraq, it was about Mark Foley and ethics.

Jane

Oh I know. Everytime I hear "this election was a referedum on the war I get sick". I did heard about a poll yesterday that said membership in the republican party was rising, while membership in the democrat party was declining. That gave me a glimpse of hope. But I will say, overall, I'm very concerned about what is going on in this country - particularly with the media.

kate

I would argue that the media actually leads the Democrats and left. The media won this election for the Democrats. I live in Northern Virginia and the Washington Post was practically a 527 for Webb.

The media is very powerful and becoming increasingly more crusading and vocal. I don't know what to do about the media. My recommendation is that Bush call them out, but as late as last week he nervously said he won't pick a fight with them. I guess he believes the coverage could get worse.

hit and run

OK, people - you MUST be sure to take the poll that is currently on the upper right hand side of the blog. "Who is going to win the Oscar for best actress?"

To support Tom? Yes. Yes of course.

But even more, to support Penelope!

(fair disclosure, I did not see a single one of those movies)

boris

My recommendation is that Bush call them out, but as late as last week he nervously said he won't pick a fight with them.

BDS is a form of hysteria. There probably is no way to confront it head on.

lurker

Tom's first post reminded me of a rule within Shar'iah law where a Muslim women requires 4 Muslim males to testify that she was raped.

I'm willing to bet that women do not want to live under this rule, who else wants to live under this "Democratic/MSM" game?

After Libby, a honest, hard-working public servant, who would want to work as a public servant for a US President subjected to Derangement Syndrome?

This doesn't bode well for the future unless Congress addresses the issues with the Special Prosecutor. Texas has similar issues with Ronnie Earle v. Tom DeLay.

Incidentally, what's up with that Earle v. DeLay case?

lurker

Unfortunately, under Shar'iah law, infidels and Crusaders' words are worth nothing under an Islam judge or Imam.

lurker
The media is very powerful and becoming increasingly more crusading and vocal. I don't know what to do about the media. My recommendation is that Bush call them out, but as late as last week he nervously said he won't pick a fight with them. I guess he believes the coverage could get worse.

My recommendation?

Boycott them. Contribute to Conservative media.

OT: Hillary Clinton now wants to pull all of our troops out of Iraq within 3 months. Check Sweetness and Light.

boris

Hillary Clinton now wants to pull all of our troops out of Iraq within 3 months

I question her patriotism.

Pofarmer

About twenty years from now a PhD candidate will be writing about Bush Derangement Syndrome and will be looking for an example. This post is that example.

The tragedy lies in the fact that the Bush Administration is partially responsible.It caved to the braying of the 16 words dogs. Had Bush and his people simply ridden out the storm and put their case clearly none of this travesty need have happened.

Yes, and from there, we get to the current braying about by Jackasses in our Capital.

Well, you know, Chris, this election was not about Iraq, it was about Mark Foley and ethics.

I talked to several people personally, who said "We need a change." Great, now I got Clair McCaskill.

Incidentally, what's up with that Earle v. DeLay case?

Probably nothing. It will be held over DeLay's head for years.

Foo Bar

If you're going to suggest that Fitzgerald is having trouble establishing motive, shouldn't you at least address McClellan's flat denials of Rove/Libby involvement in that press conference a few days before Libby's first FBI interview? Fitzgerald did present videotape of that briefing to the jury, after all.

With that McClellan statement out there, if Libby had testified that he had told and/or confirmed to reporters that Plame was CIA while knowing via official channels that it was true, and if his testimony had then been leaked, it seems to me the administration would have sustained some significant political damage prior to the '04 election.

Even if Libby had been confident that he hadn't done anything illegal (since he didn't know she was classified), and even if there's some Clintonian parsing that makes McClellan's statements consistent with the prosecution's theory of the case, I don't think it matters for the "political damage" motive. At a minimum, it would have appeared (to the "stupid" and "biased" MSM) that either Libby lied to McClellan or McClellan lied to the public about him not being involved at all.

lurker

America's War

From Blue Crab. I liked the way he concluded his post. Since the Democrats are playing this "This is Bush's War", perhaps we should help the Victory Caucus by saying that this is our war, "America's War"?

Boris, likewise. I question her patriotism. Too bad that Bush insisted in one of his recent speeches that the Democrats are still patriotic in spite of their position on the war. Bush had no choice. The voters forced him to this position. But the Republicans failed to stand by him in the last two years.

What we need is the majority back in the hands of Conservative Republicans, a very strong majority that can ride over the democrats' obstructionism, and stand by the next Conservative Republican US President.

lurker

Democrats Signal a Wider Battle Lasting the Rest of President's Term

But yesterday's vote signaled peril for the Democratic congressional leadership as well. Despite deep Republican discontent with the course of the war, Democrats were unable to persuade more than 17 members of the president's party to register that dissatisfaction with their votes. If Democratic leaders could not build a broader bipartisan coalition for a symbolic vote, it may prove much harder to attract Republican support for proposals to limit Bush's options in Iraq.

and

The White House privately pressed that point with wavering Republicans. Even as Bush resigned himself to certain passage of a resolution with no substantive force and publicly made little effort to oppose it, aides such as national security adviser Stephen J. Hadley lobbied GOP lawmakers to stick with the president to avoid emboldening Democrats down the line. "If Republicans go along with this," an administration official said, "it sends a message to Murtha about what he might be able to do with the supplemental" war-spending measure.

The Democrats still believe that the majority of the Americans are with them so we need to change that picture showing that they are wrong about this.

Other Tom

Daniel's post above sets forth most eloquently what I have been thinking from the outset, but haven't had the wherewithal to articulate so well. As JOM'ers will recall (no doubt while stifling multiple yawns), I have been yammering about the materiality issue until hell won't have it. I am still mystified. Although I certainly have to defer to Libby's outstanding defense team, I have wondered every single day of this trial why materiality has never, to my knowledge, been raised. Knowing what little I do know about the trial, I would have expected a Rule 29 motion at the close of Fitz's case, contending that the prosecution had presented no evidence that any of the allegely false/perjurous/obstructive statements was material.

Why that did not occur I cannot understand. Whether it will occur in closing I don't know, but I am certainly doubtful at this point. Perhaps the failure to raise this issue stems from Fitz's assiduously resisting any effort to disclose the original CIA referral--we really don't know to this day what he was asked to investigate. As I understood him in his infamous press conference, he was saying something along the lines of, "we don't have to investigate this or that crime, we just investigate." It's all quite chilling, and Kafkaesque.

Pofarmer

if Libby had testified that he had told and/or confirmed to reporters that Plame was CIA while knowing via official channels that it was true,

Which is pretty much exactly what he did, ya nit.

eric

Excellent analysis Daniel. Do you think a third crime may have been involved, namely the Espionage Act of 1917? That statute appears to be unconsitutional or superceded by the Spy Act. However, Fitz may have been disengenuously using that statute alone to establish materiality through the use of confidential documents down to last point in the timeline. In his press conference Fitz refused to rule out any use of this
statute and distinguished it from the Govt secrets statute in England.

On the other hand, Criminal Civil Rights Prosecutions are almost entirely limited to denial of life as a civil right,since there is no federal murder statutes. Occasionally, you will see a prosecution for an egregious case of denial of a minority group some public accomodation. Howver, I am unaware of any criminal prosecution for the type of "violation" that Wilson was complaining.

Pofarmer

"This is Bush's War"

This was also Carter's war, and Reagan's war, and the elder Bush's war, and Clinton's war. The problem is, none of them were fighting it,(well, Clintoon got in on the wrong side) and that's the model they (the Dims) want to go back to.

Pofarmer

"This is Bush's War"

This was also Carter's war, and Reagan's war, and the elder Bush's war, and Clinton's war. The problem is, none of them were fighting it, and that's the model they (the Dims) want to go back to.

PeterUK

"The tragedy lies in the fact that the Bush Administration is partially responsible.It caved to the braying of the 16 words dogs. Had Bush and his people simply ridden out the storm and put their case clearly none of this travesty need have happened."

The truth of the matter is that the Bush administration was blindsided Totally unaware the lust for power by the "Loyal Opposition was so great and the Anti-war faction so opposed to the conflict that they would stoop to any depths to bring down the Administration.
As the saying goes, "The quickest way to end a war is to lose it",the Administration could not comprehend that anyone could behave in such a despicable manner when American lives were at stake.
This ploy is of course part of the Democrat plan to smear the Republicans and keep them out of office for a generation.Just as the "Big Lie" branded Nixon with culpability for the Democrats Vietnam war so any disaster,engineered by the Democrats,will be place at the Republican door.
Hillary is playing politics with the lives of your military,it is to be hoped that these gallant men and women remember.

kate

One of the leaks close to the indictments, talked about Fitzgerald using creativity to punish the White House Leakers and the Espionage Act was cited as an example. Here's Byron York's speculation on Fitzgerald's attempt to indict on tbat act.

Shortcut to: http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200510190902.asp

In restrospect, I wonder if the leak to the Post was an attempt to get Libby to plea.

Jane

I would argue that the media actually leads the Democrats and left.

Kate,

I couldn't agree more. I just don't know what to do about it. Maybe ban J-school.

I have wondered every single day of this trial why materiality has never, to my knowledge, been raised.

OT,

I couldn't agree more. I just don't know what to make of it. Maybe ban special prosecutors.

Jane

oops!

clarice

Yes. We'll just have to deal with official corruption thru the regular criminal process or the ballot box.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

An odd ballgame, this. As we wait to see what the jury does. Duck? Or come to bat? Where they have only one turn to swing this sucker out of the ball park.

We can dream? If the jury hits a home run, then Russert's career gets smacked out of the park.

If not? We've got a long time, ahead, to talk. Because it would mean among the seated 12, there are some who believed Russert. Then, did one better and believed Judith Miller. And, here brains have to turn to mush. They slithered around in the mashed potatoes, and believed cooper, too.

Do I know what happens? Joe DiMaggio is dead.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

Just to step back a moment, before the jurors come to the plate; I am reminded of an Abraham Lincoln story. Worth sharing.

Lincoln knew that party politics meant JOBS. In other words, nobody works for "nothing." (Not even the no-nothings of his time.)

But to win elections you really needed an army of people willing to do the leg work.

In other words? A candidate's words alone, are not enough. (And, here I'm saying Lincoln knew this.)

So, part of the party apparatus that gets a man elected to office, holds JOBS for the people of the WINNING PARTY. (Keep your eye focused on the ball. Because when one party wins, the judges, and other riff-raff that gain political seating; come from one, and not the other party.) In other words? American politics makes for unemployment. Except? For the crap that sits inside civil service jobs. They're stuck in those swivel chairs till they die. And, since, oh, 1960, they've been hard at work keeping American voters AWAY from the machinery. Even when they pick a president they like. And, send him to the White House.

Lincoln knew this, too.

And, hundreds of job seekers used to come through the White House gates, to proffer their job requests directly to Lincoln.

So, here's the story:

One man who asked Lincoln for a top-notch job, was told "no." So, he then asked Lincoln for a mid-level job. And, again, Lincoln said, "no." So, finally he asked Lincoln if he could have an old pair of Mr. Lincoln's pants.

This should teach those who come here from the mainstream, and are not ignoring Libby's tzuris, to contemplate that one reason this partisan fight is so ugly, is that neither party can get beyond the 50/50 caterwalling that comes from the press.

You might not notice, but subscriptions are down. And, viewership of the nutworks, has also tanked, considerable. And, in today's NY Post, the news is even worse. Paul Tharp writes that there's been a terrible erosion of "latest circulation numbers." Made worse because even printed articles, to be read, come to the Internet. And, the ads aren't attached to them. So ad revenue is down.

Yes, the President is a player! Heck, Lincoln was, too, ya know? And, it is going to be up to Mr. Bush, over the next two years (he doesn't leave office till January 2009), to make the case that he can win in Iraq. And, probably, ahead, too, he can TALK.

Maybe, someday? We'll say he talks pretty good? And, that will add another area where he's been so misunderestimated.

I also see that the affirmative action crowd has yet to sway mainstream America, ya know? From where I sit? Most people who come into contact with afirmative action hires, tend to see it as a poor bargain. Where laws "halped" incompetency. And, it hurts our children, too.

Maybe, the jury will sock Fitz's trio (Russert, Miller, and Cooper) out of the park?

Charlie (Colorado)

Do I know what happens? Joe DiMaggio is dead.

Cue Rod Serling and the guitar music.

PaulL

Other Tom: "Perhaps the failure to raise this issue stems from Fitz's assiduously resisting any effort to disclose the original CIA referral--we really don't know to this day what he was asked to investigate."

It's this kind of thing that is maddening about the case and why I am thoroughly disappointed with Walton. Walton has always treated the case like it had merit and taken Fitzgerald seriously. Remember his comment along the lines that he has never dealt with a more fair prosecutor?

When Cooper's bad typing was shown to easily be interpreted as indicating exactly what Libby says he said, Walton should have dismissed those charges. When Miller unbelievably said she couldn't remember her sources that she went to jail for to protect, Walton should have dismissed those charges. When the falsity of Russert's affidavit was revealed and Fitzgerald's collusion with same, Walton should have thrown those charges out.

Maybe I am expecting too much from the judge?

Tom Bowler

I would argue that the media actually leads the Democrats and left. The media won this election for the Democrats. I live in Northern Virginia and the Washington Post was practically a 527 for Webb.

The media is very powerful and becoming increasingly more crusading and vocal. I don't know what to do about the media.

I agree with Kate on both counts. The media drives the Democratic agenda, and they have been on a non-stop campaign its behalf.

I recently completed a continuing education course entitled "Marketing for Managers" that went into the 4 P's - Product, Place (distribution), Promotion, Price. I was struck by how closely the media/Democratic campaign against George Bush and the Republicans seemed to follow a well coordinated marketing effort as described in the course.

Think of all the stupid TV ads you've ever watched and the products that you've bought simply because you've heard their names over and over and over.

That's exactly what's been happening in every day in the Washington Post and the New York Times. Every day there is something about Republican corruption and/or Bush incompetence, and it's been going on for six years, to the point that they are simply accepted as fact. Bush and the Republicans have been "branded". That negative image has been impressed into the minds of political consumers.

In response we need to make the truth be heard by incessant repetition of it to the broadest possible audience. We need to engage in some push marketing and it will cost money. We need a coordinated marketing plan of our own.

I think it can be done, and I think we need to do it.

Jane

Maybe I am expecting too much from the judge?

One would hope not.

windansea

The hamsterwheels are scribbling frantically about a new conspiracy involving Rove and lobbyist Hohlt

Newsweek Article

Charlie (Colorado)

To the extent that the information he withheld exonerated the administration from the scandal charges, Fitzgerald's silence was a highly political act.

+1

Jane

In response we need to make the truth be heard by incessant repetition of it to the broadest possible audience. We need to engage in some push marketing and it will cost money. We need a coordinated marketing plan of our own.

I think it can be done, and I think we need to do it.

Where and how do we start. I'm in.

PeterUK

"Walton has always treated the case like it had merit and taken Fitzgerald seriously. Remember his comment along the lines that he has never dealt with a more fair prosecutor?"

You have to remember,nobody is safe from the Witchfinder General,not even a judge.

windansea

maybe someone should tell them Novak's article was on the advance wires 3 days before publication

Charlie (Colorado)

Maybe I am expecting too much from the judge?

Here's my Theory of Walton: he has nerve problems. Specifically, he doesn't have the nerve to do anything controversial.

Specter

Hey Gang,

Just wanted to let you know I have been here desperately trying to keep up with all of the posts.

I will again state that I think the 'sphere has done the best job of following and reporting developments in this trial (I will concede that Apuzzo has had a few moments of clarity). I cannot commend all of you in one post...sorry...LOL

TM - Your post says it all. In a nutshell it has to do with flawed memories on all sides. This has to be one of the biggest tragedies in jurisprudence ever. No crimes, but lots of persecution...uhhh...I mean prosecution.

OT and Daniel - Thanks for the addition to the analysis. I totally agree that no materiality has been demonstrated.

clarice - great job with all of the coverage and analysis. Hope your trip is going/went well.

Carol Herman

FM: CAROL HERMAN
TO: PETER UK

What you say is true, sir. Waltoon is pushing this case as if Fitzgerald's ball is his ball.

And, the GOLDEN APPEAL LOG has swelled, along with all his reversable "options."

When WELLS said basically, he was going home to enjoy the weekend; and CLINE will CLOSE for LIBBY. I understood that Wells has zero respect for this judge.

And, his best hope? (He's probably banking on a hung jury. OR, perhaps, if all the charges go thru, into the jury room, than the silly games donks and affirmative action hires play, where they "compromise" on something. And, so one charge will be one where Libby is guilty.) And, that's a BIG PERHAPS, fellas and gals.

Witch hunts in the past really leave stains on the American record. That's why we still talk of SALEM, Massa2shits. While we don't talk of the attempt to impeach the president that inherited Lincoln's presidency. We don't, because one sane man kabboshed the witch hunt. So it fell off the radar screen.

Alfred Hitchcok could have presented this case as a real spine tingler. First, he'd keep the audience in the dark as to the final outcome. Hmm. Which has just about the feel of reality to it, too.

Charlie (Colorado)

...maybe someone should tell them Novak's article was on the advance wires 3 days before publication

Noticed that, did you? The whole story about Hohit getting the story to Rove? He sent it to Rove the same day the column hit the wires.

No story here at all ... but craftily avoiding telling the context makes it look like a story.

windansea

No story here at all

they will go to their graves believing that their tiny lump of coal is actually a big shiny diamond

kate

Tom Bowler-thanks for your insight.I think conservatives are good at identifying media bias and complaining about it, but not so good strategizing about how to counter it.
Your ideas represent a good start.

I believe the media is stronger than ever. They won the 2006 election. However, I do believe they are losing credibility. We need to help the media pick up its pace.

Remember in the media's eyes, there was a time from 1992 to 1994 when all was right with the world. They are eager to restore the US to that time.

Rick Ballard
In the spring and summer of 2003, as the US military occupied Iraq and failed to find significant evidence of Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction, Joe Wilson became an anonymous and then public critic of the Administration’s handling of pre-war intelligence.

Almost.

In the spring and summer of 2003, as the US military occupied Iraq and failed to find significant evidence of Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction, Joe Wilson signed on as an advisor to the Kerry campaign and became an anonymous and then public critic of the Administration’s handling of pre-war intelligence.

Much more accurate. Munchausen did tryouts in March and was signed in May. Just because the MSM airbrushes that fact out doesn't mean it didn't happen.

PeterUK

Jane,
"Where and how do we start. I'm in."

First you have to study Antonio Gramsci and the spawn of the Frankfurt School,these people have been burrowing into the popular culture,social fabric,education,language,sexuality for decades,the Right never bothered,the Left are born conspirators.

windansea

karl says:

February 18th, 2007 at 8:51 am

you guys do realize that Novak’s article was on the advance wires in hundreds of newsrooms 3 days before publication right?

edit this comment | Quote This Comment

65 Christy Hardin Smith says:

February 18th, 2007 at 8:53 am

karl at 61 — it’s a nice talking point, but you do realize that whether or not it was on the wires, Karl Rove had an affirmative duty to check to see if information that he was passing along was, in fact, classified and whether or not the person to whom he was passing it had a need to know? And whether one person or several people knew about this information, it does not absolve him of his obligations to do so and not to pass on or confirm in any way information that was classified. Don’t you?

windansea

:)

lilollady

There is a rural legend about good ol boys hoaxing tenderfeet, especially city boys, with a nighttime “snipe” hunt. The snipe is a small bird, a difficult target with unexpected flushes and erratic flight. After hours of trailing around the woods at night with shouts of “I see one”, “Over there!” the tenderfoot limps back exhausted and bug bit – if he’s lucky, and snake bit if he’s not.
This whole Libby trial mess seems like the culmination of the world’s most expensive snipe hunt – the “snipe” being the “crime.” What crime? Was there ever a crime or just this pointless, exhausting and futile hunt?

Les Nessman

Armitage deserves a mention in any good summary explaining this tragic farce.

Sorry for the nitpick.

Exellent summation, TM. Thank you (and Clarice, and the other regular commenters) for all your effort.

Semanticleo

FDL has linked to trial docs which take the
argument down to 5 basic points which are quite revealing about Libby's GJ testimony.

Temporarily suspend your disbelief and read.

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/18/the-scooter-libby-trial-and-uranium-from-africa-part-8-slithery-scooters-snow-job/#more-7301

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

Actually, Wells put RULE 29 into play. And, Fitz immediately said "CIA Referral" is not coming in. And, waltoon said he wasn't going to "rule" on Rule 29. Just yet? If ever?

The Libby Team has a very large APPEAL LOG going.

Could this RULE 29 get waltoon to toss? Dunno.

Because waltoon had many opportunities to call a "toss out da winda" and didn't.

As to books being written after this farcical trial is done. (And, that depends on if it becomes necessary for waltoon to lock the jurors up for months in a hotel, where they think about not agreeing on an outcome.) That, can happen, too.

While a woman named Kristinn, was in court on Wednesday, February 7th. (My how time just flashes by). And, that was the day Wells, in cross examining Russert,spoke, out loud, the bombshell (never refuted), that RUSSERT LIED TO (A) JUDGE.

At that moment, being that Kristinn was inside the courtoom, she kept her eyes on Fitz. And, she said "Fitz shrank down in his chair. And, then gazed at the jurors, as if to "read" them.)

Well, that's body language. (And, in poker, I'd bet, a "tell.") But so far we're not seeing how these cards play out.

Only that Wells DID put RULE 29 in play. Fitz "objected," because the CIA Referral was not going to go in front of these jurors. And, waltoon plays "hide that bail."

My last sentence, above, should you need a decoder ring, comes from an observation that had Libby testified, the judge could have thrown the book at him, and accused him of lying. He would have been sent to jail to await the outcome of the appeal on that.

If you don't think so? See if I care.

topsecretk9

it’s a nice talking point

This is the left's pat "talking point" when facts get in the way of their beliefs.

Jane

First you have to study Antonio Gramsci

Oh geez, can't you just tell it to me? In case you haven't noticed, my studying days are long since over. I can't learn that way anymore. But if you give a course, I'll take it!

windansea

Christy Hardin Smith @ 66

Oh, and further — you also have an affirmative duty to notify classification folks and the CIA that an agent’s identity is about to be publicly compromised so that they can initiate procedures to protect assets and other agents in the field. Did Rove do so? Isn’t it worth asking — repeatedly — until we get an answer?


68karl says

February 18th, 2007 at 9:12 am
you also have an affirmative duty to notify classification folks and the CIA that an agent’s identity is about to be publicly compromised

you mean like Novak did?

Carol Herman

FM: CAROL HERMAN

RE: 2006 was a "referendum" on the war call.

Just go and compare this to 1862. Lincoln was in office. His first term. The UNION was getting beat because McLellan refused to attack Lee. Or to run after him, when Lee left battlefields.

Yet, if you do look at 1862. And, how crucial it was to an American GROWING DISTASTE FOR SLAVERY IMBEDDED IN THE CONSTITTUION; plus the tricks the south had pulled to extend it ... You could surmise that "Lincoln was losing.


Perhaps, he was. HOWEVER, he was losing in everything EXCEPT CONFIDENCE. Ditto, here.

And, on this course, now? Bush, much to the consternation of the DNC, will pick up milage as our NEW LINCOLN. (Of course, it would "halp" if he gave better speeches.) But in the end what won American hearts and minds was RESOLVE.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

Gee? Nobody's gone over to see Russert's show? Not that I would. But it makes one wonder how his show is "rating" on a s-l-o-w weekend, sandwiched between friday off, and monday off. (And,I guess travelers hitting the roads, in spite of the cost of gasoline.)

Not that I mind. I'm just curious.

topsecretk9

Wind

Yeah, I'd like to know her thoughts on Wilson's op-ed and the "lots of french contacts" memo written the day before Cheney asked his debriefer. The spy who so desperately wanted to protect her covertness stood by knowing she arranged the trip for hubby AND allowed him to lie about it in the NYT's.

It's a mack truck sized hole through their barn they don't have the guts to confront.

windansea

FDLer:
Novak has a security clearance too?

KKKKkarl:
I don’t know…did Harlow ask him this before confirming Val worked there?

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

Gotta say, I "read" the news differently. Just as I do stock reports. Sometimes? I'll venture a guess from stuff that's only appearing through the cracks. Or between the lines.

Russians, by the way, do this, too. They don't actually read the "truth" in PRAVDA. They hold out for the air-brushing of the pictures. So they know who's fallen off the kremlin bandwagon.

While, Hillary's big shout that she wants the troops pulled out in 90 days?

ONE: SLOW WEEKEND

TWO: She sees pelosi's "majority" skating on thin ice.

And, she's just a creature in drag. So, it doesn't matter. She probably believes most of mainstream won't advance in her direction, anyway. And, she's trying to scare ya.

Pofarmer

There is a rural legend about good ol boys hoaxing tenderfeet, especially city boys,

Ain't no rural legend, it's quite entertaining, actually.

Charlie (Colorado)

You can't go crazy. You are the one keeping us sane on all this.

Objection: she making an assertion not in evidence.

Pofarmer

Suspend disbeleif Cleo? Shit, you need mind altering drugs to get into all the conspiracy theory.

windansea

wow..I have lasted 3 posts at FDL..that's a personal best :)

they are now trying to figure out how to escape the fact that CIA portal keeper Harlow confirmed Plame's name and employment at the CIA to a reporter with zero security clearances

kate

On the trial: anxious to hear the closing arguments.

I thought the one mistake the defense made was bringing up the Libby as White House scapegoat theory. The media loved it and was disappointed that there was no follow-up. I thought it was a mistake in an otherwise excellent defense.

windansea

that could be a thread killer :)

Ranger

"Walton has always treated the case like it had merit and taken Fitzgerald seriously. Remember his comment along the lines that he has never dealt with a more fair prosecutor?"

Yeah, was that before or after Wells stung Fitz for helping NBC concoct a false defense against his own legal actions?

And was that before or after Fitz had to admit that his office had lost the notes to an interview that controdicted one of his key witnesses testimony in front of the Grand Jury?

Patrick R. Sullivan

'If you're going to suggest that Fitzgerald is having trouble establishing motive, shouldn't you at least address McClellan's flat denials of Rove/Libby involvement in that press conference a few days before Libby's first FBI interview?'

You might have a point if that had been Fitz's first theory, but since it's his third and only came up with it to counter something Wells said in his opening remarks, it's risible.

Speaking of which, that Walton doesn't see the irony of this triviality being adjudicated in a court where he has to warn people not to spill water on his computer because he doesn't have any money to repair or replace it, nor have any money to pay his staff overtime if they stay past 5:00, is pathetic.

topsecretk9

Hey...goose/gander Wilson defense:

WILSON: Well, actually, what I misspoke was, when I misspoke to the committee, when I spoke to the staff -- this interview took place 15 months after The Washington Post article appeared. I did not have a chance to review the article. They did not show me the article.

They threw it out there, and the question I took as being a rather generic question: Could you have misspoken? Yes, I am male, I'm over 50. By definition, I can misspeak. I have gone back since and taken a look at this particular article. It refers to an unidentified former government official. If it is referring to me, it is a misattribution, of facts that were already in the public domain and had been so since March.

-----

He also said he may have become confused about his own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported in March 2003 that the names and dates on the documents were not correct and may have thought he had seen the names himself. The former ambassador reiterated that he had been able to collect the names of the government officials which should have been on the documents.

--------

I am pretty sure there is one other instance where Wilson uses the age related faulty memory answer in an interview.

PeterUK

"they will go to their graves believing that their tiny lump of coal is actually a big shiny diamond"

Actually after the big flash of light it will be a diamond.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

For a "down the road view," ahead. Waltoon will demonstrate the freaks who've climbed aboard the affirmative action train.

And, I'll be damned if the jurors haven't already seen this one hitting the bedrock of our Constitution.

Up ahead? The fog clears. The jurors either do or don't send a "homer" out of the park.

If they miss-cue? Then it's a "Homer Simpson" moment. Duh.

Alcibiades

Wow, that podcast up at the Newsweak site, by Michael Isakoff is so dishonest that it is mindboggling.

Imagine Michael Isakoff pretending to be shocked, shocked! by the clubby method of passing secrets between high government officials and upper tier journalists!!

He has about as much credibility there as Captain Renault in Casablanca!

Patton

In a larger context, this whole thing really should give you a chuckle on two counts:

1. The left is screaming about how shoddy the WMD evidence was that Congress declared war and Bush executed that war on ..near perfectly. Yet, there was much more evidence against Saddam and his having WMD then there is against Libby.
These liberals would rely on the testimony of Miller, Grossman, grenier, etc. to convict Saddam Hussein??...I bet not, they would be complaining to high heaven what a shoddy job of an investigation occurred
and that Saddam was innocent.

2. The left is always screaming about the justice system being unfair to minorities, etc. and how the deck is stacked against them. Well duh? If this is the kind of evidence the left thinks is worth convicting people on, no wonder the jails are full. They certainly can't claim all those people are innocent, if this is the kind of evidence they believe people should be convicted on.
The reasonable doubt standard is the same for an African American convicted and sentence to die as it is for Libby; and the left is telling us this is the level of evidence they would need to convict an African American of first degree murder and send him away for life, or death.

Or are they saying they would make their own standards depending on who the defendant was in the case??

So lefties are telling us if they were sitting on a this jury, except the defendent was a poor black man, and he was being tried for murder, this is all the evidence they would need to convict him and send him away for life. They would take a he said, she said as beyond a reasonable doubt.

Alcibiades

--"Gee? Nobody's gone over to see Russert's show? Not that I would. But it makes one wonder how his show is "rating" on a s-l-o-w weekend, sandwiched between friday off, and monday off. (And,I guess travelers hitting the roads, in spite of the cost of gasoline.)" --

I turned on a few minutes in passing. He had Jack Reed, D RI, and Chuck Hagel on talking about Iran and Iraq.

You know, for Timmeh, that's what constitutes a perfectly balanced panel!

Other Tom

Kate--That was a disappointment to me as well. However, so far as I am aware it was never mentioned after the opening, and I don't understand any of the evidence as supporting it. I don't expect we'll hear about it in the close.

The "motive" theory the moonbats love the most is "Libby lied because he was covering for Cheney." They must be bitterly disappointed that somehow the prosecutor hasn't tumbled onto that one. Perhaps one of our delightful trolls can get on the phone right away and alert the prosecutor's office to their insight--surely Fitz just overlooked it.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

Sometimes, you can smell storms brewing, just from the scent your nose picks up from the wind.

AT FREE REPUBLIC, they've posted this SUNDAY's latest: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?m=all;o=time;s=libby

What's telling is that it's coming off of a Slate article. Slate. From the left. So you might not notice.

PeterUK

Jane,
Gramsci had come to the conclusion that Capitalism,was not going to be overthrown by the Proletarian Revolution alone,that,Capitalism maintained Cultural Hegemony as well as the coercive powers of the state to maintain its preeminence.The cultural pillars of society were the mechanism by which Capitalism was upheld,whilst these pillars were in place,Capitalism would keep its control of what was regarded as the norm.
The revolution that Gramsci proposed was the undermining these pillars and the proletariat's acceptance of the norm.To that end,the law,religion,sexuality,education,morality,right and wrong,good and bad were sabotaged from without and within.The diaspora from the Frankfurt School found positions of authority throughout the American education system,from whence the minds of Academe were moulded.
Look at many of the apparently deranged ideas that have come forth from those Sacred Groves,the self loathing instilled into your young since the fifties and sixties,think you not there is some overarching guiding concept behind it? The Comintern certainly did.

Foo Bar


"if Libby had testified that he had told and/or confirmed to reporters that Plame was CIA while knowing via official channels that it was true,"

Which is pretty much exactly what he did, ya nit.

Pofarmer:

I was under the impression that Libby had testified that Cheney had informed him that Plame was with the CIA in early June, but then he had forgotten about it, and then after speaking with Russert and re-learning it as if it were new information, he characterized the Plame info as unconfirmed reporter gossip with Cooper and Miller. In other words, he did not testify to any discussion of Plame with reporters during which he simultaneously knew from official government sources that she was with the CIA.

I'm just a nit, though, so maybe I'm wrong. If you can point me to a point in his testimony which says otherwise, I'll take a look.

Jane

To that end,the law,religion,sexuality,education,morality,right and wrong,good and bad were sabotaged from without and within.

PUK,

You are scaring me. It would seem that the corruption is nearly complete. We need a major commeuppance in this country to refocus the mind. I fear it will be in the form of a nuke.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

The difference between Dan RaTHer's career slide, and Russert's will be due to the FORUM.

Dan RaTHer chose C-BS

Russert, long ago, chose to be the stick Fitz would use to beat Libby at this case.

Which may be just a mere pffel. When compared to the way his career can go down. Unlike Dan RaTHer, who did not take the C-BS lawyers with him. The screwy caps Russert donned, may make a difference. For, I'd bet right now, NBC would ALSO prefer the jury's verdict coming back "not guilty."

Do you know why? A not guilty verdict just tosses Russert out on his ass. While something else will put the whole kit and kaboodle on the auction block. (To say nothing of the fact that Immelt is now looking for "buyers.")

boris

and I don't understand any of the evidence as supporting it

IIRC Cheney issued a memo that assured OVP staff that nobody would be thrown under the bus to save the administration.

Had the prosecution case been stronger it might have been used to explain why Libby volunteered to bafflegab at such length.

windansea

some great Hillary cartoons at Slate including this one

sympathy vote

Carol Herman

Fm: CAROL HERMAN
TO: PETER UK

It seems to me, the large slice of wasteland up in Michigan. Detroit, to get ya ta focus; went down the crapper because there were two side that couldn't figure out the market place. ONE dealt a blow to good engineering, so today you'd notice Toyota is #1. And, the other? The car industry with european labels, as well. Has opened plants in the south (right to work states). As well as in canada. Do you know why?

Walmart points to the reason. TRANSPORTATION COSTS. And, how good management thrives on knowing they can delivery inventory on the button.

Right to work states can have a viable alternative to the europee-in socialist programs that are sinking job opportunities fast. And, has let Ireland attract human brains from the Continent. Leaving europe brain draining as well.

Fight's not over.

As to the real defenders, they tend to own guns, here, in the USA.

Well, what about gangs? Yes. They take over in the neighborhoods that took umbrage at white cops. So, they're getting to have "seered into their memories," what affirmative action hires do to the locals. Where their schools, and hospitals, also stink. But our freeways can take mainstream traffic, away. Bypassing with cement, what we don't call "walls" either.

Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

My monitor is a Farrari. By Acer.

So I get no problems posting. Or taking the "eye test" which is a breeze.

Pofarmer

Carol, did you realise the article you linked is by none other than John Dickerson?

Alcibiades

Jane,

viz. Gramscianism, I think the situation in Britain is actually far more dire than here - there, there really is a concerted effort by people in Parliament - many of whom were the socialist youth leaders during their time in University - to destroy all of their institutions from the inside, out. Thus, for example, the very odd policing rules that come into effect vis-a-vis the war on terror, the concentrated effort to belittle the history of the UK - which is worse than here, I believe so that no one grows up with a sense of pride in their country, etc. Plus, the Christian traditions seems to be fairly well dead over there, as it is also on the Continent.

Here, besides academia, a lot of which appears to be mass delusion, but not organized mass delusion, the most egregious case of this, to my eyes, is Soros and his minions - and they, I believe, are quite purposefully setting out to remake both America and Israel in Soros' image.

Carol Herman

Fm: CAROL HERMAN
TO: PO FARMER

Not only that! Yes, I did notice! (See my comments on how I think NBC wants the jury to declare NOT GUILTY! Such a move saves the station, though not necessarily RUSSERT, and his hat bar.)

HERE'S THE LAST TWO PARAGRAPHS OF THAT NICE SLATE PIECE, copy and pasted. (The intro? Deals with the "Valentine," read by the "nice juror, who is the school teacher; and who speaks with a southern "twang.") Below, some such nonsense? OR what? To me, it seems Alice In Wonderland is getting a sequel:

Instead, the defense was allowed to read into the record an affidavit from the FBI agent who first interviewed Russert. The agent's account of his conversation with Russert contradicted Russert's two days of testimony. Talking to the agent, Russert could not rule out the possibility that he had an exchange with Libby about Wilson's wife (In court, Russert testified firmly that he hadn't.) The agent also reported that "Russert acknowledged that he speaks to many people," and that it was "difficult to reconstruct conversations several months later."

You are not crazy to think that what you've just read sounds like it was written by the defense; it nicely mirrors Libby's testimony about his own fuzzy recollections. On Tuesday, Fitzgerald even suggested that Russert had a lot on his plate and couldn't be expected to remember everything. This caused members of the defense team to almost bark out loud, since that is the exact argument they are making about Libby.

PeterUK

Jane,
It is good that you are afraid,the West has been unafraid too long.What our little Gramscians were never good at is seeing beyond Marxian determinism,pull down the state,the socialist utopia is bound come about in the natural order of things.Unfortunately culture, like power,abhors a vacuum,that more confident,virile cultures will simply sweep in and take over,it is not for nothing that a resurgent Islam has chosen this historical point in time to assert itself.It sees self doubt,a lack of belief in anything,what it sees as a degenerate,debauched society,without the will to to defend even its right to disbelieve.The Islamists keep telling us this,for some reason the Left does not believe them.
This is the pass that the left has brought us all to,this is why there is such a disconnect between reality and the utopian dream floating around in their heads.It is no use expecting them to have a wake up call,as Fisque said "If I were them, I would beat me up too"

Jane

it is not for nothing that a resurgent Islam has chosen this historical point in time to assert itself

Rather than a grand plan, I see opportunism, which they have used very well to their advantage. And the left at least seems quite happy to hand them an advantage at every turn.

I feel like the rest of us are losing our ability to fight it back, and I think we need to redouble our efforts. We need to capture the media (and probably our schools), and I'm simply not sure how to go about that.

azaghal

PeterUK, here's a link to an article re Gramsci and the Frankfurt School that I posted several days ago. Things get lost on these super long threads. People fail to realize how tied together so many of these cultural and political movements in fact are.

Cultural
Marxism

azaghal

Alci, The New Republic has an article about Soros and his plans--subscription only. I may stand in a book store and read it, not that I expect to learn anything new.

Jane, a frontal assault against the media won't really do the trick--they're too entrenched. The good guys need institutions that can be mobilized to exert influence. This is something that Evangelicals have learned to some extent. Other religious people need to get involved, and that takes grass roots work and dedication. Churches are among the few institutions that address a wide enough range of issues and have a wide enough network of contacts to be effective, but thus far they have remained very much on the sidelines.

There are a number of ways to loosen the left's stranglehold on educational and media institutions. Re media, the internet has proven remarkably effective. With regard to education, tuition tax credits would go a loooong way in the right direction, and that accounts for the off the chart opposition to that movement.

Jane

By the way PUK, as I'm sure you know, the Muslims have been taking their best advantage for a very long time.

One of my best friends grew up in Tehran where her father held the contract on paper vending.(There are no trees in Iran so all paper had to be imported. The terms of the contract were that the Shah got 50% of the profit and her family got the other 50%.) As a teenager she worked in a printing office. As the Shah got weaker she tells stories about the Muslim fundamentalists staying after work every night to print propaganda, to be ready for the day Khomeni came back.

If you ask my friend, who got out soon after but whose entire family still lives in Tehran this is what happened:

The US had a vested interest in Iran during the cold war (to prevent the SU access to the sea) so Carter courted the Shah. He praised him for the capitalism in Iran and the freedom of religion, and the educational benefits but battered him about the lack of free speech, encouraging him consistantly to allow free speech. The fundamentalists saw this coming, thus the nightly escapades at the printing press. When the Shah got sick, the fundies were ready. And no one else was.


Carol Herman

FROM CAROL HERMAN

Here's why I'm betting walton tosses this case.

His skin is very sensitive. And, he probably is aware that the jury can at least squeeze a book deal out of this trial. (Along with the hundreds of others, also due to hit the book racks.)

And, IF he's reading this jury as being willing to toast Fitz' case. RaTHer than making Fitz and judicial folly (waltoon), the target of this misbegotten venture ...

waltoon tosses it. Don't believe me? Well stay tuned. Either way, it's a win-win, ahead for Libby. And, a scooter in over-drive through the Fitz debris that turns the prosecutor's case to a stain on the floor. That shall be hard to wax out.

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