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March 16, 2007

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» A sign of things to come in the Plame hearing (PM UPDATE III) from Sister Toldjah
Todays the day that Valerie Plame is testifying before a House committee on her outing. John Podhoretz is watching the hearing and noted this: Henry Waxman, who is chairing the hearing into the revelation of Valerie Plame Wilson&#... [Read More]

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Ok, now this is hilarious. The CIA desk jockey was asked to testify to Congress about a four year old story in which the Special Prosecutor found no crime, other then perjury unrelated to the crime he was investigating. What... [Read More]

» An Eternal Plame from Little Miss Attila
Tom Maguire is having too much fun: Finally, John Podhoretz provides a funny bit of testimony telling us that, although she did not recommend her hubby for the 2002 Niger trip, Ms. Wilson went to her boss accompanied by the... [Read More]

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I have to admit the Plame Game is getting a bit boring. And the duplicity of the attack on Libby and the administration over forgotten details verses the out and out lying by the Wilsons and Fitzgerald is just mind boggling. What would be inte... [Read More]

» Snapshots from Valerie Plame's testimony from Kesher Talk
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» Plame Sheds Little Light in Leak Case from Outside The Beltway | OTB
Valerie Plame Wilson testified before Congress today, claiming that she was a covert operative at the time Richard Armitage leaked information to Robert Novak and that the content of that leakthat she had been behind sending her husband, Joe Wil... [Read More]

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Tom Maguire destroys Plame and her defenders in the media. Sorry, that should be "her defenders, the media." Carnage everywhere!... [Read More]

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E' ormai qualche mese che vi consigliamo di leggere le analisi di Tom Maguire su Just One Minute se volete capire qualcosa del Plamegate (o Nigergate, o Libbygate, o comunque vogliate chiamarlo). Ve lo ripetiamo anche oggi. Se poi volete continuare a... [Read More]

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Comments

arcanorum

FRITZ!

Jeff

Turns out OVP contacted CPD on February 12, 2002 with an inquiry about the Niger story. One of Plame's subordinates reported it to her, and one of her superiors, hearing what was going on, suggested her husband for a mission to Niger.

Point is, CPD learned about OVP's interest in the previous intel report on Niger-Iraq on February 12, not - as evidence at the trial appeared to show - on February 13. There was a formal tasking to CIA that day. But OVP expressed its interest in the Niger story to CPD the day before, and that triggered CPD to come up with the idea of sending Joe Wilson.

That's the way it looks to me anyway at the moment.

clarice feldman

So, Jeff, the only way the OVP could have avoided being tagged w/ "behesting" Munchausen was to never look at or question the crap the CYA was sending up there?

The only evidence we have is that one day later (Frb 13)he got the doc he was asking about, looked at it and asked if the Agency had anything more.
Unless you believe in time traveling premature esp.

Jim E.

John Pod also wrote: "Valerie Plame Wilson is a very effective witness."

Appalled Moderate

From now dead thread:

Jeff:

I accept the timeline, but not Val's "somebody made me write the memo" explanation. Be nice if she had said "who". Then we could subpeona the guy to find out. Because, on the believability scale, this sounds a lot like Libby's Russert tale.

If someone made her write the memo, she would likely have phrased it very differently. Like, " I have been asked about my husband's qualifications..."etc. Then she could have been as glowing as she wanted, and insulated herself against a nepotism charge. (Which, given the way the memo was phrased, was an internal charge she exposed herself to.)


Jeff

I'm not talking about behesting, clarice. Cecil and I and many others have had a long-running debate about the order of events in February 2002. At trial, it looked like evidence was introduced that meant that CPD came up with the idea of sending Wilson before hearing of OVP's interest in the Niger story. The testimony that Plame gave under oath today makes it look like that's not the case, that in fact CPD heard about OVP's inquiry about the Niger story and that prompted them to come up with the idea of sending WIlson on a mission to look into it.

I think you may just not be up on what was testified to today.

Lew Clark

From unreliable sources close to the "case", (actually it's only half a case now, H&R drank two six packs before breakfast), Plame is right. The CIA is having a horrible time recruiting for similar positions to Plame's, due to fear of disclosure. The parking lot is filthy, food remains unserved in the cafeteria, and I won't even go into how the bathrooms smell!

clarice feldman

Jeff, if JPod's synopsis doesn't make clear how preposterous her latest version is, nothing I am afraid will get thru to you on that point.(Was Ray McGovern walking the halls that day?)

Jim E.

clarice,
Instead of reading J Pod, why not see what she said herself?

bgates

AM - Be nice if she had said "who". Then we could subpoena the guy to find out.
But that guy works at the CIA, and should therefore (per Ms Plame's testimony) be presumed to be a covert operative. Anyone seeking to learn his name should be targeted by a Special Prosecutor, likewise anyone mentioning the names 'Grenier' or 'Tenet' or anyone else connected with the CIA, all of whom should be presumed to be working deep undercover.

ordi

No No No Clarice you don't understand! Everything our pal Val says is the gospel according to Joe!


Sarc off

Jeff

Grenier of the CIA

Tom, apart from the fact that you seem to be stepping on your own prior talking point with regard to Grenier's testimony, Plame's testimony today was not that she was not involved in Wilson's mission at all - indeed, she testified that she went to Wilson to ask him to come in to the CIA, and she introduced him at the February 19, 2002 meeting before leaving - but that she neither recommended her husband nor suggested him for the mission. Someone else came up with the idea of Wilson for a mission - suggesting him, in other words - and then her superior asked her to write up a memo or email memorializing the matter. Does reciting his qualifications in response to a request from others mean she recommended him for the mission?

And of course Grenier didn't say that Wilson's wife recommended him for his mission, contra Apuzzo - nor does 7. of the indictment say Grenier said that.

Ranger

John Pod also wrote: "Valerie Plame Wilson is a very effective witness."

Posted by: Jim E. | March 16, 2007 at 10:36 AM

Yes, well the WaPo's take from former CIA types was she was an minimally competant operative that "presented herself well." Sounds like the description still fits.

Rick Ballard

Toensing is doing quite well.

Jeff

clarice

First, did you actually see the testimony instead of relying on the snarky report of JPod? Furthermore, nothing in what JPod says calls into question the point I made. JPod was belittling, not calling into question the veracity of, the account Plame gave in her testimony.

The point, again, is that Plame testified under oath that CPD heard initially from OVP that it had inquiries about the Niger story on February 12, not February 13.

Ross

What a bimbo! I'm pretty sure she used to work the drive-up window at my local Dairy Queen.

Southside

Go Toensing Go

windansea

An officer serving under her was upset to have received an inquiry from the vice president's office about yellowcake from Niger

Supervisor: Well, when you go home this evening, would you ask your husband to come in.

Then her supervisor asked her to write an e-mail about the idea. She did so. That e-mail, she said, was the basis for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence claim that she had been responsible for sending her husband to Niger for the CIA.

this looks like perjury to me, since her email was sent the day before Cheney asked CIA to check out the NIger info

sbw

Your assignment tonight, Jim, should you ridiculously care to accept it, is to see how much Plame appears in the major press compared to how little Toensing. ... This tape will self-destruct in 10 seconds.

Jeff

Toensing also just stated something that is inaccurate. She claimed that the IIPA requires the CIA to report annually to congress on the measures it is taking to protect covert agent's identities. In fact, it is the President, after receiving information from the DCI, who is obligated to provide an annual report to the congressional intelligence committees. Thus, the responsibility falls to the President; and the failure to do so is the President's failure.

Ranger

Jeff,

Many, many laws require the president to report to congress on agency activities. In fact, this ammounts to the preseident signining a cover leter to the agencies report. For all pratical purposes, it is the agency that reports, thought the president, to congress. Talk about picking nits.

hit and run

Lew Clark:
From unreliable sources close to the "case", (actually it's only half a case now, H&R drank two six packs before breakfast),

I made a representation in the previous thread that I was leaving....maybe to come back after a couple of beers.

Although I have to break my word to do this - as I have not yet had any beers - I fear I must as a fair warning to everyone.

Mrs hit and run just called and asked me to pick up a two bottles of tequila on my way home.

I am apologizing in advance if I should show up here later. hit and run and tequila can either be a really beautiful thing - or it can get really ugly. And as a man of great immoderation, I fear for the worst.

I may send an email to Tom asking him to go ahead and ban my IP now. I would not blame anyone else for doing the same.

May God have mercy on our souls.

sylvia

"Maybe they call her the wind. (But they call the wind Maria...)"

That was genius. That's Friday humor.

theo

Here is from an NYT story up now about the Plame testimony:

"Her husband, a former diplomat with considerable experience in Africa, traveled to the continent in 2002 to investigate rumors that Saddam Hussein was trying to acquire uranium from Niger to build Iraq’s nuclear arsenal. In July 2003, an Op Ed essay by Mr. Wilson in The New York Times expressed deep skepticism about Iraq’s arsenal, and by implication skepticism about President Bush’s justification for the war that toppled the Iraqi dictator.
Soon afterward, Ms. Wilson was unmasked by Mr. Novak. That incident led to an investigation to find who had leaked her name, possibly in violation of the law. While no one was prosecuted for the leak itself, Mr. Libby was found guilty of lying to grand jurors and F.B.I. agents during the investigation. Administration critics have long asserted that Ms. Wilson’s name was leaked to intimidate others who differed with the White House."

Hmmm---- Ms. Wilson was "unmasked by Novak." Well that is not really true. Novak is a reporter and only knows what people tell him. This explains why there was "an investigation to find out how leaked her name." But someone reading this article would have to assume that the investigation did not reveal who in fact did the leaking. Or perhaps that this information was "not fit to print."

And notice the new allegation that Plame was outed to intimidate OTHERS who might differ with the White House. The old story was that it was to get revenge on Saint Joe.
So I guess that this outing would intimidate anyone who had gone on a mission for the CIA whose spouse worked there. Just how big a universe is that?? And it does not appear that there has been noticeable silence since July 2003 of those "who differed with the White House."

The New York Times -- "All The News That Fits Our Predetermined Narrative And None That Does Not."

Gabriel

So if Mrs. Plame perjures herself under oath today, will we get another Independent Counsel?

ajacksonian

VPWs status: known CIA Employee married to high flying Ambassador and full exposure to any and all gossip columnists that are at any of the typical events such a couple would go to.

That was known in 1998 when she married the Ambassador. One cannot be covert and do that, nor within the 5 year waiting period after one is taken out of that status. Therefore, VPW was either no longer a covert agent or she should be up on a whole slew of charges for all of the security regulations she violated.

Say, did Amb. Wilson get his NYT Editorial cleaned up by the CIA first, as is required with any disclosure of bought and paid for government information that is classified? Because, even if not in the contract for such work, it *is* part of the contract. And even if he voluntarily went over on his own funds, such a report, once it is classified, is then under all the laws of same for disclosure.

I look forward to that trial...

clarice feldman

Did they mention her meeting w/ Kristof?

TMF

SHe's more of a shrewd misleader than a flat out liar from what I can tell...

In other words your typical Democrat

TMF

I wonder when she first had political aspirations

This niger thing was like hitting the jackpot for this nitwit

arcanorum

So if Mrs. Plame perjures herself under oath today, will we get another Independent Counsel?

Fitz's investigation while dormant could be reactivated should his services be required. But I'm not sure if Plame's false testimony might not be the good kind, the kind that brings down the bad guys, better ask Fitz.

clarice feldman

(OT) FNC reporting thugs tried to kidnap a UN official in Gaza and the UN is threatening to remove all its people from there.Oh dear, there goes the Gazans major funding source.

sbw

The chairman is badgering the witness.

sylvia

Yes Judy Miller and Libby should join forces and sue for false arrest. That is something that is not done enough in this country I think. The IIPA statue was clearly listed as the reason for investigation on Libby's indictment when clearly no infraction of that was committed.

I would think there is some rule against doing that. You can't have some prosector say "yeah I'm starting a murder investigation for Sinbad because he was reported dead in Wiki", and then put a bunch of people under oath and ask them personal questions, knowing all the while that Sinbad is hale and healthy. (did you all catch that story today?) There has to be probable cause. So Libby and Miller should demand - Is she or isn't she? And if she isn't, do the American thing and sue, sue, sue.

Tom Maguire

Turns out OVP contacted CPD on February 12, 2002 with an inquiry about the Niger story.

I don't know why that could not have happened - all we know is the DIA report came out on Feb 12 and questions about the CIA view came back to them from (at least) State and Defense that day.

Why couldn't Libby (say) have seen the DIA report, made a note for the boss to ask about it, and then called the CIA himself?

That said, Ms. Wilson is hardly disinterested or objective here (what with the civil suit and all), and it would have been nice if the CIA had hit upon that story, rather than Cheney's briefer, a few years ago.

Oh, well - if the CIA can't produce "some guy" to vouch for Ms. Plame's latest story, their operational skills belong in the wastebasket.

obsessed

from Think Progress:

Gen. Michael Hayden recently told Reps. Henry Waxman (D-CA) and Silvestre Reyes (D-TX) that there was no doubt Victoria Plame Wilson was covert. Cummings — relaying what Waxman had told him — said that Gen. Hayden expressed clearly and directly, “Ms. Wilson was covert.”

Cummings asked, “During the past five years, Ms. Plame, from today, did you conduct secret missions overseas?” She answered, “Yes I did, congressman.”

arcanorum

I wonder when she first had political aspirations

she was probably just along for the ride, then she saw the dollar signs, and decided to cash in her chips.

our next US congresswoman from New Mexico.

theo

There is something that has always been troubling to me. IIRC in the famous July 6 Op Ed piece, Wilson insists right up front that he did not see any classified CIA documents in connection with his trip. But he sure seemed familiar with what teh CIA knew. Isn't it entirely possible that he did have access to classified documents that he should not have had and did this pre emptive denial to protect the person -- say a family member -- who gave him such illegal access?

arcanorum

Cummings asked, “During the past five years, Ms. Plame, from today, did you conduct secret missions overseas?” She answered, “Yes I did, congressman.”

stationed overseas? no.

did any of these 'covert' missions meet the threshold of IIPA definition of covert? no.

arcanorum

Isn't it entirely possible that he did have access to classified documents that he should not have had and did this pre emptive denial to protect the person -- say a family member -- who gave him such illegal access?

not only possible, but in fact rather likely.

SunnyDay

Toensig is not intimidated, heh.

sbw

Whatever happened to the gong used for the gong show? Whenever representatives start pontificataing, I'd like the opportunity to give it a whack.

Understanding is lost under all the words.

arcanorum

"Oh, well - if the CIA can't produce "some guy" to vouch for Ms. Plame's latest story, their operational skills belong in the wastebasket."

The New York PD can dredge up some 'witness' months after a police department civilian killing, but the CIA cant find a guy who recommended big hair Wilson go to Africa? No wonder we dont trust CIA competency.

bgates

Jeff - And of course Grenier didn't say that Wilson's wife recommended him for his mission, contra Apuzzo - nor does 7. of the indictment say Grenier said that.

from the liveblogS
He got a response “probably within a couple of hours.” It was from someone he did not know but was “fully knowledgeable about what had happened.” He got confirmation that CIA had sent Wilson to investigate Niger uranium and went into some detail about the mission. Conveyed that State, Office of VP, and Defense had all “expressed interest” in the issue.

That person “mentioned” that Wilson’s wife worked in the division and was the impetus behind the trip.
....
Did you [Grenier] tell him [Libby] about the wife connection? “I believe I did.” He [Grenier] thinks he told him [Libby] “something to the effect” that the wife was “why Wilson was sent” but mentioned it “only in passing.”

From the indictment:
7. On or about June 11, 2003, LIBBY spoke with a senior officer of the CIA to ask about the origin and circumstances of Wilson's trip, and was advised by the CIA officer that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip.

So Jeff, is your argument that 'responsible for' and 'impetus' are not 'recommended'?

windansea

Jeff and friends are probably too busy playing gotcha politics to notice, but if Val is typical of CIA agents tasked to protect us from WMDs we should all be very very afraid

(from other thread)

An officer serving under her was upset to have received an inquiry from the vice president's office about yellowcake from Niger

yes, very upsetting, being asked to actually check something out about WMDs

and evidently, while she was comforting that junior officer,

our CIA agents need comforting when given tasks

some guy walked by her office and suggested her husband should go to Niger to check it out.

probably the janitor

She said she was ambivalent about the idea because she didn't want to have to put her 2 year-old twins to bed by herself at night.

yes, my personal comfort is more important than national security

Still, she and the guy who had just happened to walk by then went to her supervisor.

true heroes!!

Sue

Point is, CPD learned about OVP's interest in the previous intel report on Niger-Iraq on February 12, not - as evidence at the trial appeared to show - on February 13. There was a formal tasking to CIA that day. But OVP expressed its interest in the Niger story to CPD the day before, and that triggered CPD to come up with the idea of sending Joe Wilson.

An aide, maybe? What a kerfunkle. To believe one part of the story you have to ignore the other part. Libby didn't lie to Pincus when he said an aide raised the issue with the CIA.

sylvia

"In February 2004, after reviewing what the FBI had, Fitzgerald widened his investigation to include "any federal criminal laws related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure."

So Fitz didn't have the covert option, so he "widened" it to include any related to the "underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure". The problem is, THERE IS NO LAW related to the unauthorized disclosure. So obstruction of any justice to any criminal law is not possible. Heck, even Plame doesn't know about any broken laws. How is anyone else supposed to know.


not the senator

Very cute of you to use the AP story on the covert issue. Let's go to the videotape why don't we?:

Waxman's opening statement:

"I have been advised by the CIA, that even now after all that has happened, I cannot disclose the full nature, scope and character of Ms. Wilson’s service to our nation without causing serious damage to our national security interests. But General Hayden and the CIA have cleared these following comments for these hearings. During her employment at the CIA, Ms. Wilson was undercover. Her employment status at the CIA was classified information, prohibited from disclosure under Executive Order 12958. At the time of the publication of Robert Novak’s column on July 14, 2003, Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment status was covert. This was classified information."


So unless you are saying that the CIA Director, General Hayden is lying in his statement to Congress, there's no getting around it. The discussion is over. She was covert at the time and hence, there was an underlying crime.

It might not have been prosecutable because of the intent and knowledge provisions of the law but that couldn't be determined until it was investigated. Libby obstructed a legitimate investigation.

sylvia

"Oh, well - if the CIA can't produce "some guy" to vouch for Ms. Plame's latest story, their operational skills belong in the wastebasket."

Maybe they can send Joe Wilson on a mission to find him.

ben

Joe Wilson is a proven liar, even the MSM will admit as much...the Wilson-Plames are partisan Democrats with an agenda...what possible reason would we have to believe anything Valerie Plame says? Regardless of what she says, I would like one good reason to believe any of it...nothing she said today makes her a"covert" agent, and there is enormous amounts of testimony that she was involved in picking and sending her husband to Niger...so what is the discussion really about? The same old story, the conspiracy to "out" someone that wasn't covert, and which even a 2 year investigation couldn't find any evidence of...so Fitzmas having been a bust, the Democrats are going to try the case in the media, where facts and evidence are not a factor...

Jeff

Toensing offered a falsehood when she said she has stuck to the language of the statute. She glosses service as foreign assignment, and covers up the fact that it is a gloss, not a statement of the law.

But she just admitted that she's given her legal interpretation.

And now she's saying again that the officer has to reside overseas. The statute nowhere says that. The legislative history of the statute nowhere says that.

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