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March 16, 2007

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Tom Maguire

Toensing thereby confirmed that the actions of Karl Rove and others was illegal.

I found the live-rant by pach at fdl to be especially useless today, but honestly - violating an executive order is now "illegal"? Geez, a quick executive order stifling dissent, round up the objectors, and Bush is home free.

Here in the USA, of course, Congress still needs to pass laws to make something "illegal". Violating an executive order won't do it.

(Am I actually explaining this? Send better trolls...)

Sara (Squiggler)

The bottom line is that the CIA had no problem confirming her employment. And I would like to see a first hand account of Hayden's statement. From what I can tell, he said she was covert during her career at the CIA. Hayden: During her employment at the CIA, Ms. Wilson was undercover.

TMF

Abe

GEt your facts straight.

It was the State department, not the White House that leaked Plames identity.

Rove just said "i heard that too" to a reporter that didnt even write about it.

WH just confirmed it after the cat was out of the bag from Armitage

Are you really this much of an ignoramus or do you just play one on tv?

ErnestAbe

And check out the very funny exchange at the end of the hearing. Waxman was saying that he will enter into the record much evidence that contradicts Toensing's testimony, and that he thanks for coming to talk about her experience with the IIPA 30 years ago. She replied, "well only 25 years, I'm not that old" or something to that effect. And he said, with a twinkle in his eye, "well we will have to check that out, too."

It's worth watching the video.

arcanorum

Jumping ahead again, it sounds like no one asked Val anything, waxman declared her covert and then they went on. Is that a fair assessment (I checked in over FDL)

no, she was asked a few pointed questions. however, her CIA training paid off, and she mostly lied her way through.

clarice feldman

Thanks to the NEA the number of people who get that point, TM, is very tiny.

TMF

I heard the Waxman exchange

It was hilarious indeed.

Toensing tried to get out the truth

Waxman tried to shut her up

WIth a "twinkle" in his eye.

sylvia

Ex Order 12958 - Is that federal law and if so, what statute? I'll look it up in Findlaw.

By the way for the IIPA, again it says this: "ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States;" It does not define the term "serve" within the statute, leaving it open for the CIA or Plame to claim her one week trip to Jordan is "serving".

arcanorum

It's worth watching the video.

yes, and I anticipate the 'corrections' that waxman feels will be needed to straighten the record will not be forthcoming. Toensing made her points.

Jane

Where are you guys all following this? PLease. pretty please....

ben

ErnestAbe is sure not honest Abe, he would do well in the Joe Wilson school of liars...Toensing did not say Rove or anyone else violated any executive order, she said it would have violated the executive order to leak the name...but we already know Karl Rove was not the leaker...so at best this would apply to Armitage, but it still is not a criminal matter...

It's so funny how Toensing is the devil and she is evil when she points out the facts, but let her say anything that might possibly be bad for the Administration and suddenly what she says is the gospel..go figure

TMF

I love it, Waxman gets his facts wrong, Toensing corrects him, and Abe thinks Waxman is the "truthy" one

lol

arcanorum

It does not define the term "serve" within the statute, leaving it open for the CIA or Plame to claim her one week trip to Jordan is "serving".
a false claim not likely to withstand judicial scrutiny.

sylvia

"Hayden: During her employment at the CIA, Ms. Wilson was undercover."

Yes we need a good transcipt of his statement, because the wording is crucial.

TMF

Waxman isnt creepy looking


No, not at all

Just keep your daughters under the age of 16 away from him

ErnestAbe

TMF, last time I checked, the State Department was in the executive branch, and Bush ("Commander in Chief") kind of oversees it. Back in Truman's time, there was some expression about where a buck stops that indicated that the President was responsible for what happened in the executive branch of governement, under his, er, command.

And I think Armitage should be held repsonsible for his actions, but that in no way releases the many White House officials from their own leaking, as Toensing confirmed today, under Executive Order 12958.

Two wrongs does not make a right. And the hearing today discussed 20 separate leaks of Plames identity by the White House. Even adding Armitage to the mix, twenty-one leaks does not make a right.

MikeS

Apparently Plame was so damn covert that the CIA didn't even tell the White House when they introduced her into the explanation for Wilson's attacks on the Administration.

Hell, If they had just told Novak (that information he was about to publish was classified), he claims he never would have mentioned her.

sylvia

"a false claim not likely to withstand judicial scrutiny"

I didn't see it in there. You have an excerpt?

TMF

Waxman is one handsome, TOTALLY non-smarmy looking man

He resembles a beady eyed buck toothed lizard in NO WAY whatsoever

clarice feldman

Jane--I gave you the cites upthread.
The live web cast seems dark now--here is the running thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1801823/posts?q=1&&page=1151>thread

ErnestAbe

ben, did you just call me a liar?

I just saw with my own eyes, and the FDL transcript confirms it, that Toesning confirmed that the White House officials violated Ex Order 12958.

That's a fact.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.

Jane

It is available via streaming video

Link?

Patrick

Here's Waxman:

"During her employment at the CIA, Ms. Wilson was undercover. Her employment status at the CIA was classified information, prohibited from disclosure under Executive Order 12958. At the time of the publication of Robert Novak’s column on July 14, 2003, Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment status was covert. This was classified information."

Hmmm. The CIA has "covert" agents operating in the United States? And these covert agents are allowed, if not encouraged, to donate to Democrat political campaigns listing their covert cover front companies as their employer on the donation form, which is then published on the web? Covert United States based CIA agents are regularly invited, and are allowed to go to DNC functions with NY Times reporters? I can go on and on...

Regardless how this is spun, Fitz was charged with prosecuting the underlying crime. He never did, even after knowing who leaked Plame's name to Novak (Armitage), therefore no crime was committed. Waxman can say whatever he wants - but it can't change that fact.

Also, I saw Plame draw an analogy between herself and a General. If a General comes home from overseas he remains a General. If she came home from overseas, she remains covert. No, hun. What you were engaged in overseas might still remain secret, but you are no longer covert. You are in a different job and category altogether.

Was her job as a WMD 'expert' at the CIA also covert? If she (and her husband) frequently told others outside of the CIA what her job was, it doesn't seem to be either covert or classified.

She describes herself and her husband as Democrats, and then goes on to tell the world that politics must get out of intelligence. Under that theory, she should have been one of the first thrown out.

If this is evidence of what we have at the CIA we are in a whole lot of trouble, and will be for a very long time.

I am very unimpressed with the Republicans on this committee. This should have been like shooting fish in a barrel - and very easy to get her to perjure herself and show her husband to be a liar.

Charlie (Colorado)

Not the senator: It might not have been prosecutable because of the intent and knowledge provisions of the law but that couldn't be determined until it was investigated. Libby obstructed a legitimate investigation.

No, because the investigation already had the perpetrator. Armitage had already confessed.

Jane

Clarice thanks, what I wanted was the streaming audio on the internet. I guess I missed it.

ben

Toensing basically said this whole issue is complete B.S. and she did damm well proving her point. But if in her entire testimony it came out that she once saw Karl Rove pick his nose, the liberals and the MSM would have a big banner headline, and the nutroots would not be able to contain their excitement:

TOENSING SAYS ROVE PICKS HIS NOSE..

This is what we have come down to folks, its gotcha politics all the way...

jerry

"toensing? no matter what kind of creepy feeling you get, she is not evil."

Gee, I don't know... there's definitely something extra-dimentionally spooky about her.

BTW, I still don't buy her legal argument... in the sense that I think it truely is "her" argument. Assuming she testified honestly, and despite having written the IIPA, other people (government lawyers) may have a different understanding of the protections from that law.

Is there anyone on earth who could convince Toensing that her campaign to undermine the seriousness of l'affair Plame, harping on her legal definition of "covert," is mistaken?


"We understand your discomfort, jerry..."

That would be because after 6 years light is finally being focused on the right wing fog machine?

Tom Maguire

They call the wind Mariah, not Maria.

That has been nagging at me.

Looks like Waxman lied - the relevant Executive Order is 13292, which amended 12958 as of March 2003.

I think the big change was to give the VP some formal role.

I would say the CIA failed here:

Sec. 4.2. Distribution Controls. (a) Each agency shall establish controls over the distribution of classified information to ensure that it is distributed only to organizations or individuals eligible for access and with a need-to-know the information.

If Ms. Wilson had no role in the Niger trip, she should not have been talked about. if she had a role, her status should have been flagged.

Well, duh. Why did I bother?

clarice feldman

Jane--this was the streaming video:
http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=1205

Rick Ballard

Jane,

The actual farce is over. Sue said they used several of your questions. I heard Davis get out the basic thesis that Team Plamilson went into politics in the open on May 2 and May 3 - the meeting with the Senate Democratic Policy Committee followed by the snookering of Kristof.

I'm hoping that the Waxman show trial transcript will turn up in the Congressional Record.

Jeff

I would love a link to a good legislative history of that bill.

Me too. No kidding, my legal source with access to Westlaw who got me all the stuff is currently in the country and out of internet reach. I will get it to you as soon as I can.

the final bill was a compromise; hence, I doubt anyone favored an expansice definition.

I would add that a variety of people say a variety of things on different parts of the bill, not all of them consistent, presumably seeding the legislative history for later pickers. But not on the service thing.

Also, the basic point is that Toensing misleadingly presents what is her own gloss as though it were the very language of the statute. To hear her (and many of your commenters obviously have), you'd think the bill said the definition of "covert" required a foreign assignment of extended duration.

Look, maybe Fitzgerald was just doing what prosecutors do all the time, aggressively interpreting a bill that has not yet been settled by precedent and so on. Maybe his interpretation will eventually be rejected. But it is just wrong for Toensing to act as though the matter were settled, that Fitzgerald just must have shared her interpretation, and that therefore he just must have known that there was no underlying crime, because there could not have been. That's all nonsense.

maryrose

JimE:
You obviously missed the excellent article in The American Thinker that provided detailed questions. Committee members were sent these questions that JOM members provided to get the real truth out of our gal pal Val.

Sara (Squiggler)

Jane, CSPAN carried the whole hearing. I'm sure it will be repeated later tonight and probably again over the weekend.

Tom Maguire

From Waxman:

At the time of the publication of Robert Novak’s column on July 14, 2003, Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment status was covert. This was classified information."

That pretty much proves that he does not know (or does not want to tell us) her status under the IIPA. C'mon, he knows the magic words, but he won't say them!

And telling me her "CIA employment status" - who cares?!?! Tell me about her status under the law!

sferris

I was very impressed with the Republicans? Where were the other Repulicans? The were most lilkey went into hiding. You were probably impressed with Libby's cousel too -the ones that got him off one count in five.

TMF

"Right wing fog machine"?

Yeah, the intrepid democrats are here to expose the truth.

Thats why Waxman didnt mention Armitage once during his empty partisan dog and pony show

They care about truth like a tiger cares about vegitarianism

sylvia

What is an Executive Order as compared to a Federal Law?

Rick Ballard

The lyrics of the CIA version:

"and they call Val Plame pariah.."

roanoke

I'm off to lunch but really quickly...

This is bugging me. According to the Senate Report Wilson was never asked to sign a non-disclosure statement before leaving on his trip to Niger.

Now why is that?

Incompetence on the part of the CIA DO officials?

Lack of faith in Wilson's ability to find anything worth keeping classified?

Who does not deny being involved in her husband's trip to Niger?

Plame.

Who could have noticed this supposed irregularity?

Plame.

Who was in a position to make sure her husband received this "exception"?

Plame.

One could believe that the Op-ed in the NYT by Wilson was premeditated.

DO officials told Committee staff that they promised the former ambassador that they would keep his relationship with CIA confidential,but did not ask the former ambassador to do the same and did not ask him to sign a confidentiality or non-disclosure agreement. The former ambassador left for Niger on February 21,2002.

Senate Report

sferris

Hearing are great. Let's have more.

TMF

"Hearing are great. Let's have more."

I agree.

Bush has done such a phenomenal job protecting us from more terror attacks that we can sit around and BS about silly, meaningless, empty, historically insignifcant "hearings" headed by beady eyed spittle lipped nobodies

THe real men will continue to make history

The kids will hold hearings

ErnestAbe

TM at 12:09 --

I'm always stunned by your use of the childish "two wrongs make a right" logical fallacy.

Even if the CIA was not sufficiently careful discussing Plames status at the WH (and that is an enormous IF!), and even if Armitage was the FIRST leaker), that in no way releases the White House officials from obligations under Ex Order 12958 (or 13292).

And you know it.

Sara (Squiggler)

Someone at today's hearing, I forget who, said that one of the factors of granting a security clearance is signing a non-disclosure agreement. Joe Wilson claims he held some kind of security clearance because of his national security jobs, so when he went to Niger, did he still hold a security clearance? If so, did he violate the NDA that clearance required as part of being granted in the first place?

sylvia

"One could believe that the Op-ed in the NYT by Wilson was premeditated."

Yeah, I still someone's idea I saw that this whole thing about sending Wilson was a CIA plot to embarass the President.

ErnestAbe

Oh, and Toensing testified today that she knows it too.

Enlightened

To think the public would believe Val-the-Patriot and her blithering idiot of a husband are the only two people on planet earth that knew going to Niger was all that was needed to stop the war buildup.

All it took was to never say Valerie Plame and CIA in public, and say that Niger was a uranium bust, and by golly Saddam would have been neutralized right then and there.

This is hilarious. Poo-Flinging Monkeys controlling the House and Senate. I can't wait for the movie. I hope it is a audience particiaption movie - like Rocky Horror Show. I'd like to fling some poo right about now. It goes well with Blonde.

jerry

"Hearing are great. Let's have more."

I agree, great fun.

obsessed

What does you gut tell you about these two video clips?

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/16/well-that-was-interesting/

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/16/gonzales-caught-on-tape/

sylvia

"And telling me her "CIA employment status" - who cares?!?! Tell me about her status under the law!"

Now I'm getting even more confused, if that's even possible. Now there are differences between legal "covertness" and employement "covertness". Oi vey. This will never be solved. I really think we need that covert agent list the President is supposed to have to solve this.

Looking_for_a_way_out

Has any person in a position to actually know Plame's status in the CIA actually testified she wasn't covert? Toensing seemed to draw the conclusion, without actually knowing, that Plame didn't meet the covert definition in the IIPA statute, but to me that is of minor significance compared to the letter from Hayden. Is it possible that Libby was actually concerned that either he or his boss might have committed a crime and that is why he lied to the FBI and the GJ? I know that is a tough conclusion to draw, but the more we know, the more likely it seems to me.

ben

Hey Abe, if the liar shoe fits, and it does, wear it

Toensing did not accuse Karl Rove of anything, this Executive Order stuff is a red herring, Fitz was not commissioned to investigate executive orders, and there in no such thing in Washington or even legally as "the first leaker"...or the "second"...Armitage was THE leaker, the cat was out of the bag ...pretty soon Democrats are going to be down to saying "it was in bad taste" or it might even have been"naughty naughtly"...get a grip

Jane

Jane, CSPAN carried the whole hearing. I'm sure it will be repeated later tonight and probably again over the weekend.

Thanks sara! I did check CSPAN when I first got in, so I guess I missed it.

From what I can tell (and it's not much so far) the republicans didn't bother one whit.
I'm getting close to the point where I'm going to give up politics for a year. All the left does is lie, and the right sits back and takes it. I'm so disgusted by the left that it is starting to be really personal to me. And I'm afraid for the country. But I'm getting equally as disgusted by the spinelessness on the right.

bob

So, what I am understanding you to say is this:

1. Technically, Valerie Plame was NOT covert enough for the disclosure of her identity to be a crime.

2. Since there was not a crime, Fitzgerald should NOT have been asking the questions that Scooter Libby felt compelled to lie in answer to.

3. Being forced needlessly into the position of having to lie, he was entrapped, and therefore he is NOT guilty of a crime.

Is that correct?

TMF

obsessed

"WHat does your gut tell you about these two video clips"?

That these people really, really like themselves

And want you to like them to

topsecretk9

Hmmm. The CIA has "covert" agents operating in the United States? And these covert agents are allowed, if not encouraged, to donate to Democrat political campaigns listing their covert cover front companies as their employer on the donation form, which is then published on the web? Covert United States based CIA agents are regularly invited, and are allowed to go to DNC functions with NY Times reporters? I can go on and on...

----

Who was in a position to make sure her husband received this "exception"?

Plame.

Bingo.

sylvia

Well good thing for Wiki:

"Most executive orders are orders issued by the President to United States executive officers to help direct their operation, the result of failing to comply being removal from office. Some orders do have the force of law when made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress due to those acts giving the President discretionary powers."

So, you get fired if you violate it. Big deal.

TMF

I get the impression from watching plame that she sort of enjoys the attention and wasnt too perturbed about the "outing"

Just a gut feeling

sylvia

Bingo Bob.

T.J. King

If she was talking to a junior officer that was balling his head off over the VP asking for information about Niger and a guy walked by and told her to send her husband and that resulted in her email.

If I remember correctly, wasn't the email sent on the 12th, the day before Cheney "bequest"-ed the intel on Niger?

Did the junior officer that she was rocking in her arms, consoling his tender spy heart have a magical time machine that sent him into the future, returned him safely to earth and placed him in her office in his swaddling clothes, just in time for the magical walking by man who is trying to suck up to the office babe by acting like he has such high regard for her house-husband.

[Walking past - thinking to himself, "not fair! That little punk is trying the crying in her arms sensitive guy trick. I have to top that] [stops at door]

[Guy that walks by often] Hi Val!

[Plame] Hi there, **Classified**.

[Guy that walks by often] Is that a new outfit?

[Plame] No, Joe just hemmed it for me.

[Guy that walks by often] I love Joe

[Plame] I have a problem, this Junior officer is on the floor with me here in a fetal position because the Vice President needs intelligence from Niger. For the love of god, doesn't he know we are busting our ass over here, working our fingers to the bone, and then he has the gall to ask us for , of all things, Intelligence??? That heartless bastard, and now look he's turned this little spy into a whimpering basket case. OOOH, the humanity!

[Guy that walks by often] You are such a passionate woman, Val

[Plame] It just feels like I got punched in the gut

[Guy that walks by often] Where does it hurt

[Plame]I wish my Joe could make things better

[Guy that walks by often] I love Joe, he can fix anything

[Plame] Did you say Joe should go to Niger?


[Guy that walks by often] Umm, Is that good?

[Plame] My tummy feels better, Lets go talk to the Supervisor with your idea and I will stand close to you while you are saying it


[Guy that walks by often] Ummm, anything for you , Val



[Junior officer's head clunks on floor as she gets up]

[Plame] I hear the VP is receiving a briefing on that silly Niger story tommorrow

abib

Dude, the head of the CIA - who was appointed by Bush - said she was covert. Pathetic.

TMF

abib

Your point is what exactly, dude?

sylvia

Wow TJ, the sexual tension is rife in that story. I feel a deal with Harlequin.

Jeff

That pretty much proves that he does not know (or does not want to tell us) her status under the IIPA.

I don't think that's quite right, though I do think if more of the Democrats were more clear on the relevant language of the statute, things would have been more fun with Toensing, who made it sound like she was reporting the statute's language when she was in fact glossing it. The Democrats going on in the morning not just about Plame being covert according to the CIA, but having done secret work outside the United States in the period shortly before her outing shows that someone there understands the basic dispute, which is about how to interpret the "service overseas" clause in the IIPA. Like Fitzgerald, the Democrats were taking doing under cover/secret/covert work overseas within the last five years as qualifying Plame as covert; whereas Toensing was holding to the notion that service overseas requires having an assignment of some unspecified but apparently quite length duration, or even living overseas for some unspecified but lengthy duration.

Sue

What Ms. Plame testified to was someone in the OVP called her assistant.

Which supports the story told by Libby to Pincus. Jeff, et al, want to use that same story to show Libby was a seasoned liar, by telling Pincus Wilson was sent because an aide was asking questions.

But watch closely. They will have it both ways!

Sara (Squiggler)

Hayden wasn't even appointed to his job at CIA until May of 2006. How does he know what transpired in 2003?

TMF

Her job was analyzing data at a desk in Virginia

What does your "gut" tell you about whether she was "covert"

Sue

Dude, the head of the CIA - who was appointed by Bush - said she was covert. Pathetic.

Dude, why didn't Fitz! file charges?

verner

I watched Plame, and can only say that we didn't learn a single thing that we didn't already know. "I'm not a lawyer, but I was "covert"--says it all. If she was covert under the law,as in, under the very specific legal definition of "covert" you had better believe we would all know about it.

Grenier would have known, and told the OVP, and Harlow would have never let Novak publish that piece.

Remember what both Armitage and Novak said--in all their years of dealing with NOCs and "classified info, they had never ever seen an agent's name dealt with in the way Plame's was. Period.

Those repsonsible for "outing" Plame--first, Plame and Joe, and then the CIA for not properly informing ANYONE in the administration that she was 'legally" NOC etc.(assuming that she was.) As Davis said--no one was informed of her exact classification.

Plus, we should never forget--the OVP Armitage etc. didn't get her identity from the outer planets--they got it from the CIA.

Two words for this hearing--SNOW JOB.

clarice feldman

Who walked by her office the first time she sent Joe to Niger?

topsecretk9

Ooops...forgot about this again

More Plame [Cliff May] My friend the ex-CIA officer reminds me that, in addition to Valerie Plame's new and very creative assertion that sending Joe Wilson to Niger was the idea of a guy who just happened to be strolling by her desk one day, there also is the fact that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence found that the Wilson was known to the CIA because Plame had recommended him for an earlier mission.

See attached excerpt.

Now, remember...trip number one was the reason they chose him for trip number 2 -- or so all the lefties say.

Ben

BIG QUESTION:

Plame once again repeated ad nausium that her career was "ruined" by the "leak" because she could never again work in an undercover capacity.

Yet we know for a fact that Plame was already useless since her identity had already been blown twice in the '90s, first by convicted spy Aldridge Ames and another time by CIA bungling in Havana. That's why Plame was sent back to Langley to ride a desk the rest of her career. She was never going to get another covert assignment.

Why is no one talking about this, including the GOP committee members?

Bill H

With Val's saying she didn't know her legal status, there are two possibilities, either she does know and can't publicly say or she really doesn't know.

If she does know and can't publicly say then there are two possibilities, that publicly saying that she was covert would publicly embarrass the government of which ever country she was in or there was a royal screw up within the CIA and the odds are not only was she not protected by the Identities act but her employment by the CIA was not even classified.

If she really doesn't know then she couldn't take the 4 or 5 minutes to look up the law in almost 4 years.

arcanorum

All the left does is lie, and the right sits back and takes it.

take heart, jane.

The media enablers no longer have the monopoly that they once did, and so the falsehoods of the left are exposed to anyone who takes a moment to look. The US economy is solid as a rock, even as Europe slides. The US military is the greatest power the world has ever seen, and has the largest disparity over its enemies since the Roman empire.

We will survive.

verner

And another thing....Corn and Isikoff said that she went to Jordan on the Aluminum tubes bit--obviously info much too sensitive to bring into the hearings. So who leaked it to them? Huh?

And I like it that Val admitted that she was at breakfast with Joe and Kristof--but she didn't stay long or talk to him...

And if you believe that...

Guess she didn't coach Joe on what he would say either.

arcanorum

With Val's saying she didn't know her legal status, there are two possibilities, either she does know and can't publicly say or she really doesn't know.

you forgot to mention the possibility that she does know that she is not covered by IIPA but prefers not to admit such.

stupid, lazy or a liar. perhaps, all of the above.

cathyf

As I said over on the other thread, the key moment was the Feb 19, 2002, meeting. The CIA

1) allowed her to go to the meeting,

2) allowed her to represent herself as a "CIA managerial type" to the assorted CIA & non-CIA staff at the meeting,

3) allowed her to introduce Joe Wilson as her husband ("Valerie Plame" and "Joe Wilson" are not obviously related),

4) allowed her to tell the assorted people that he was a former ambassador,

5) allowed her to tell the assorted people that he was going to Niger on behalf of the CIA,

6) did not indicate to any of the people in that room on that day that there was anything secret/covert/confidential/classified about Ms. Plame's relationship with the CIA.

The direct chain of custody of information was State Dept staffer at 2/19/02 meeting ==>> INR report ==>> Armitage ==>> Novak ==>> newspaper. According to the laws of the United States, and the Constitution, and employment contracts, if the government gives one or more US citizens some information, and the government doesn't indicate to those people that the information is secret, then the government has no recourse whatsoever against those people for telling other people, or against those other people that they told.

If Plame was classified/covert/secret/whatever before Feb 19, 2002, (which I personally am skeptical of) then she and the CIA moved her into the non-secret catagory on that day by their actions. Plame and Wilson gave those people at that meeting all sorts of information which they had no need to know. Since a fundamental basis for secrecy regulations and laws in this country is that secret information is only given to people who have a need to know it, then the government made her identity non-secret on that day, if not before, by sharing it freely with a bunch of folks who had no need to know it, and who would know that they had no need to know it.

JimO

This entire situation is so ridiculous. Politics and our US legal system “stink.”

The VP, during the time of war, inquires to the CIA about some rumors about Iraq, Africa and “yellow cake.” Immediately, they decide to send one of their employee’s spouse, to Africa without getting back to the VP to see exactly what information he is seeking, if he approves of the messenger, and if he has any other information that they need to investigate. Right here, this whole story is rotten to the core……..and stinks to high heaven.

Then, as has been outlined so many times on this site, the lies and phony stories start to flow. I believe a child should be able to see that this whole mess has been set up and continued by the CIA. Obviously, their spies, isn’t this their craft (in action)?

There might have been a crime of neglect “if” the VP of the US had not inquired…..but at least he did his job.

Sara (Squiggler)

including the GOP committee members?

What GOP members? I only saw one. Where were the rest of them?

Sue

I think she explained her covert status to us. Using the analogy of a general. A general is a general whether he is stationed overseas or at the Pentagon. She knows she was not covert within the definition of the IIPA.

Whitehall

What continues to burn me is that incorrect assertion that Saddam was trying to obtain yellowcake FROM Niger.

The correct statement is that Saddam was trying to obtain yellowcake IN Niger FROM the French who owned and operated the mine.

This is the fundamental misdirection that the CIA, Wilson, and Plame are trying to provoke.

ErnestAbe

I get it. you guys think this is all about the IIPA statute and anything else, such as Toensings admission that WH officials violated an Executive Order in leaking Plame's identity, is just irrelevant and a "red herring."

I have a different world view. From where I sit, this whole think is about a corrupt WH that lied us into war, and then violated the law (IIPA or Ex Order 12958, it really doesn't matter) in retribution at a man who called into question the President's 16 words in the SOTU speech. And Fitzgerald investigated and found that Libby lied to the FBI and then to a grand jury.

I'm not going to convince you to change your world view.

Too bad, you can't enjoy my satisfaction in Toensing admitting that Rove, etc. violated Ex Order 12958.


I'm also struck by the image of Bush saying he took this matter seriously and wanted to get to the bottom of it, and then we hear today from the totally inept WH security bumpkin that NO investigation was ever made by the WH, none whatsoever. Not even in the months preceding the criminal investigation. And no action was taken to remove security clearance from Rove, or anyone else, pending the outcome of the criminal investigation. Makes Bush really seeem like a liar.

Sue

Plame and Wilson gave those people at that meeting all sorts of information which they had no need to know.

Need to know. Ms. Plame stepped in it this morning with her response about her status being need to know. I guess Joe needed to know during a heavy makeout session on their 3rd or 4th date.

Sue

I got an idea, Abe. Go read that Executive Order.

arcanorum

"today from the totally inept WH security bumpkin that NO investigation was ever made by the WH"

I'm glad they didnt lose any sleep or waste any time on this trivia, and concentrated on the important things, like saving our asses from the terrorists.

verner

I though I was going to puke when she said that politics should be taken out of intelligence gathering--as if her stupid husband didn't to just that.

I was surprised her nose didn't grow two feet after that one.

ErnestAbe

Sue, I did read the executive order, and it expressly prohibits the specific actions that Rove has admitted doing, and yet he still have security clearance. It boggles the mind.

Pofarmer

I'd have a lot more faith in this if the MSM newsmonkey's could get their story straight. One of them just said that Joe Wilson "Showed that the administration claims that Iraq was trying to build nuclear weapons was false." Or something very close to that. I kid you not.

I won't have time to go through the rest of this till tonight, but the coverage is just miserable.

At least they are reporting that "Plame said she was covert" and someone noticed, at least once, that the definition she was using didn't meet the IIPA statute, I think it was a quote from on of the Pubs on the board.

sferris

Plame enjoyed the attention? Are you blaming her? If I had lies told about me I would be glad for the chance to testify to get the truth out.

clarice feldman

EA, Don't you suppose--I do--that if the WH had conducted its own investigation simultaneously w/ DoJ's that they would have been charged with interfering with the investigation?

It's why then WH Gonzales did not inquire further of DoS's GC Taft's when he said DoS had provided some info to the DoJ.

(I'm being kind, actually--you could have bet the farm on that happening.)

arcanorum

Sue, I did read the executive order, and it expressly prohibits the specific actions that Rove has admitted doing, and yet he still have security clearance. It boggles the mind.

it boggles the mind that you are still flogging this dead horse.

SlimGuy

I had to laugh when they were trying to somehow knit this is with the USA firings.

No Politics here, move along.

Harry Lime

Those poor, poor Republicans and that squalid call sheet of pops up in every crisis.
Maybe not all of their heroines seem to be the worst that central casting has to offer. But that Toensing dame scored high on the witch factor.

Pofarmer

I think she explained her covert status to us. Using the analogy of a general. A general is a general whether he is stationed overseas or at the Pentagon. She knows she was not covert within the definition of the IIPA.

Sue

She also said "Once covert, always covert" in the same line, which is also a bunch of crap. Sorry, Ms Plame should be up on perjury charges with all the stuff that don't add up. She has definately been prepping for this for a while though. And if she's so super secret and all, why would her real name getting out have jeapardized her super secret work? Didn't she have an alias? Seems to me that the spread in Vanity fair would have been somewhat more telling. I think there's more than one egomaniac in that bunch.

Terrye

This whole thing is so absurd. If Plame's husband had kept his mouth shut no one would have ever heard of her. There would have been no layout in Vanity Fair, no book deals, no movie deals, no fawning fans singing her praises etc.

Poor baby.

All I can say is if Wilson and Plame are the kind of people the CIA considers for assignments for anything it is no wonder they were wrong about Libya and its nuke program, Pakistan and its nukes, AJ Kahn {who?}, Iraq, Iran, the fall of the Soviet Union and God only knows what else.

So will there be charges of perjury brought against Plame if her testimony is different from her superior's?

Armitage will never get in trouble, he is a blowhard, a Bush critic and a career diplomat like Joe Wilson himself.

Believe it or not everyone who works in the government is not working for Bush.

Sue

It also expressly prohibits the specific actions that Wilson has admitted doing, and yet, he is your hero. It also prohibits Plame from discussing classified information with Wilson, but it is so obvious she did just that, from the OVP requesting the information to the forged documents.

You think her classified status prevents the WH from responding to their political hit job?

I could take you more seriously if you were just as appalled at the revelation of covert operatives on the front page of the LA Times. Where is the hue and cry from the left to find out who put the lives of 3 covert operatives in true danger by revealing enough of their identity so that people that live in the community they live in know who they are?

arcanorum

If I had lies told about me I would be glad for the chance to testify to get the truth out.

what lies?

the facts that she worked for the CIA and sent her blowhard husband to Nigeria to investigate a claim, while he was mysteriously not required to sign a standard NDA and then shot his mouth off to everyone in a five mile radius are not in dispute.

Sara (Squiggler)

EXECUTIVE ORDER 13292

- - - - - - -

FURTHER AMENDMENT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 12958, AS AMENDED,
CLASSIFIED NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION HERE">http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/eoamend.html">HERE

Pofarmer

But that Toensing dame scored high on the witch factor.

That damaging eh? Great.

ErnestAbe

Toensing got in that Armitage was the leaker and David Corn was the first to publish Plame's name--she's apparently giving the Dems conniptions.

Posted by: clarice feldman | March 16, 2007 at 11:29 AM

Clarice, I don't want to embarrass you again,, but please check out this video of the hearing today. Specifically, please check out the chart that the Democrats diplayed repeatedly. Right there on the chart, in the middle, on the right, is "Armitage" -- shown as a leaker.

So why should this info give Democrats conniptions?

TallDave

Thus, the responsibility falls to the President; and the failure to do so is the President's failure.

I knew it was Bush's fault somehow!!

Kind of funny to see DKos talking points migrating here. Sadly, they don't flourish outside their native environment.

Sigh, another meme withers and dies. The autumn of propaganda is sad yet also beautiful, as the varicolored lies fall from the trees and adorn the ground, crunching underfoot.

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Wilson/Plame