Hillarity At The Debate

Per the Times, or Nedra Pickler of the AP, it sounds as if Hillary was assaulted at the Dem debate last night by six Democratic rivals, two moderators, and an angry usher.  What, no cabbie complaining about his tip?  One wonders whether Hillary can turn this into a "bunch of mean men ganging up on the poor little woman" scenario.  As if.

The Politico adds this:

PHILADELPHIA - - We now know something that we did not know before: When Hillary Clinton  has a bad night, she really has a bad night.

In a debate against six Democratic opponents at Drexel University here Tuesday, Clinton gave the worst performance of her entire campaign.

It was not just that her answer about whether illegal immigrants should be issued drivers’ licenses was at best incomprehensible and at worst misleading.

It was that for two hours she dodged and weaved, parsed and stonewalled.

Let's ignore space constraints and go to the transcript for the fateful exchange on licenses for illegal not-yet-documented immigrants:

MR. RUSSERT:  Thank you, Brian.   

Senator Clinton, Governor of New York Eliot Spitzer has proposed  giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.  You told the Nashua, New Hampshire editorial board it makes a lot of sense.  Why does it make a lot of sense to give an illegal immigrant a driver's license?

SEN. CLINTON:  Well, what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform.  We know in New York we have several million at any one time who are in New York illegally.  They are undocumented workers.  They are driving on our roads.  The possibility of them having an accident that harms themselves or others is just a matter of the odds.  It's probability.  So what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is to fill the vacuum.

I believe we need to get back to comprehensive immigration reform because no state, no matter how well-intentioned, can fill this gap.

There needs to be federal action on immigration reform.                  

MR. RUSSERT:  Does anyone here believe an illegal immigrant should not have a driver's license?

REP. KUCINICH:  Believe what?

MR. RUSSERT:  An illegal immigrant should not have a driver's license.               

SEN. DODD:  This is a privilege.  And look, I'm as forthright and  progressive on immigration policy as anyone here, but we're dealing with a serious problem here, we need to have people come forward.  The idea that we're going to extend this privilege here of a driver's license, I think, is troublesome.  And I think the American people are reacting to it.

We need to deal with security on our borders, we need to deal with the attraction that draws people here, we need to deal fairly with those who are here; but this is a privilege.  Talk about health care, I have a different opinion.  That affects the public health of all of us.  But a license is a privilege, and that ought not to be extended, in my view.

MR. WILLIAMS:  Who else?  Senator --

SEN. CLINTON:  I just want to add, I did not say that it should be done, but I certainly recognize why Governor Spitzer is trying to    do it.  And we have failed --

SEN. DODD:  Wait a minute.  No, no, no.  You said yes, you thought it made sense to do it.

SEN. CLINTON:  No, I didn't, Chris.  But the point is, what are we  going to do with all these illegal immigrants who are (driving ?)    -- (inaudible)?

SEN. DODD:  Well, that's a legitimate issue.  But driver's license goes too far, in my view.

SEN. CLINTON:  Well, you may say that, but what is the identification if somebody runs into you today who is an undocumented worker --

SEN. DODD:  There's ways of dealing with that.

SEN. CLINTON:  Well, but --

SEN. DODD:  This is a privilege, not a right.

SEN. CLINTON:  Well, what Governor Spitzer has agreed to do is to have three different licenses; one that provides identification for actually going onto airplanes and other kinds of security issues, another which is an ordinary driver's license, and then a special card that identifies the people who would be on the road.

SEN. DODD:  That's a bureaucratic nightmare.

SEN. CLINTON:  So it's not the full privilege.

MR. RUSSERT:  Senator Clinton, I just want to make sure what I heard.  Do you, the New York Senator Hillary Clinton, support the New    York governor's plan to give illegal immigrants a driver's license?  You told the Nashua, New Hampshire, paper it made a lot of sense.

SEN. CLINTON:  It --

MR. RUSSERT:  Do you support his plan?

SEN. CLINTON:  You know, Tim, this is where everybody plays gotcha.  It makes a lot of sense.  What is the governor supposed to do?  He is dealing with a serious problem.  We have failed, and George Bush has failed.

Do I think this is the best thing for any governor to do?  No.  But do I understand the sense of real desperation, trying to get a handle on this?  Remember, in New York we want to know who's in New York.  We want people to come out of the shadows.  He's making an honest effort to do it.  We should have passed immigration reform.

MR. WILLIAMS:  New subject.

Senator Edwards, you have young children.  As you know, the Internet can be a bit of a cultural Wild West.  Assuming a lot of homes don't have parental support, would you be in favor of any government guidelines on Internet content?                     

MR. EDWARDS:  For children and try to protect children and using technology to protect children?  I would.

I want to add something that Chris Dodd just said a minute ago, because I don't want it to go unnoticed.  Unless I missed something, Senator Clinton said two different things in the course of about two minutes just a few minutes ago, and I think this is a real issue for the country.

I mean, America is looking for a president who will say the same thing, who will be consistent, who will be straight with them. Because what we've had for seven years is double-talk from Bush and from Cheney, and I think America deserves us to be straight.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Obama, why are you nodding your head?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I was confused on Senator Clinton's answer. I can't tell whether she was for it or against it, and I do think that is important. You know, one of the things that we have to do in this country is to be honest about the challenges that we face.

Immigration is a difficult issue. But part of leadership is not just looking backwards and seeing what's popular, or trying to gauge popular sentiment. It's about setting a direction for the country, and that's what I intend to do as president.

MR. WILLIAMS: Are you for it or against it?

SEN. OBAMA: I think that it is a -- the right idea. And I disagree with Chris, because there is a public safety concern. We can make sure that drivers who are illegal come out of the shadows, that they can be tracked, that they are properly trained, and that will make our roads safer. That doesn't negate the need for us to reform illegal immigration.

Hillary does mention that Gov. Spitzer, under pressure from many including Mr. Chertoff of the Department of Homeland Security, announced last Saturday a complicated three-tiered plan which has itself come under criticism.  First, the plan, as described by Nick Confessore of the Times:

Under the revised plan, New York will offer a new, highly secure state driver’s license, known as Real ID. It would be available only to citizens and legal immigrants and comply with new federal rules, and it could be used to board domestic flights and enter federal buildings. Two other types of licenses would be offered: an enhanced driver’s license that New Yorkers who are citizens could use to cross the Canadian border without a passport, and a less expensive, limited license available to illegal immigrants and others that would not be a valid federal identification.

And some criticisms, also found in the Times:

One criticism that has been raised is that the personal information will be entered in databases that will be shared by every state, raising questions about how the data will be secured and how safe its storage will be.

“That’s an identity thief’s dream,” said Christopher Calabrese, counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union’s technology and liberty program.

Mr. Calabrese said that Mr. Spitzer’s proposal to create a driver’s license that would appeal largely to undocumented immigrants presents “a much more dangerous condition” for them.

“What we’re going to have,” he said, “is a list of undocumented aliens, and there’s no way New York will be able to keep the federal government’s hands off this list and protect the people whose names are on the list.

And this, from a Times editorial:

As outlined, the new agreement between New York and Washington would create three licenses. One would comply with the still-undecided federal standards for the Real ID Act, and another would be for those who want to go to Canada without using a passport. The third license would not be valid as identification to board airplanes or enter federal buildings.

It is license No. 3 — the cheapest and easiest to get — that would be offered to all New York residents, including the undocumented. The Spitzer people say that they would not share information about the immigration status of any of these third-tier drivers. But as immigrant advocates have already pointed out, who else would really want this license except those who cannot qualify for anything else? As other states have learned, a separate but unequal license for immigrants does not work. Undocumented workers would not come out of the shadows to apply for a driving permit that they believe would make them a target for any official on a crusade against illegal immigrants.

So let's see - Spitzer's new plan is to create a list of undocumented aliens and share that with the Feds; he will also hand out Third Tier licenses that strongly imply the holder is an undocumented alien.  And Hillary supports this?  Is this plan really better than doing nothing?  Are the undocumented really going to emerge from the shadows to get this restricted and potentially embarrassing license, or is Spitzer simply proposing an expensive waste of time?

And just what does Sen. Obama support here - the new Spitzer Three Tiered approach, or Spitzer's initial plan to offer licenses to all?  Fortunately it was Hilloween Eve, so that question went unasked.

OLD TIMES:  Apropos of nothing other than nostalgia for the glory days of the Right Wing Attack Machine, this old post united Nick Confessore and Nedra Pickler, for the first and only time.

Comments

[Jane]

I actually saw that exchange, and it sounded like typical Hillary to me. She always gives me whiplash. I guess the news is that someone actually called her on it.

FTR when asked if anyone opposed giving licenses to illegals, only Dodd raised his hand.

[Other Tom]

I probably don't have to remind everybody here that I'm the world's biggest pessimist when it comes to the inevitability of a Hillary presidency. What we saw last night is what we saw for eight years when her husband held the office, and what we will see for at least four years when she holds it.

Will the electorate see this kind of performance and catch wise? It's nice to think so, but I doubt it. The overwhelming majority of the people who will vote next year aren't paying any attention at all at this point.

[clarice]

Why did she attack Bush for not passing a comprehensive immigration law? He was for it.
Why does she suggest such a law would obviate the need for such licenses? Is it that she believes there won't be illegals once the law is passed?
Why do Dems think that we aren't onto their plan to give illegals licenses so they can vote illegally?

Contrary to all the punditblather that the failure to pass comprehensive immigration legislation would hurt the Reps, isn't it increasingly obvious that their base--the poor and Black--are hurt most by illegal immigration? And isn't it likely that sooner or later, the Dems are going to realize that despite what their media friends rold them, this issue is a killer for them?(Spitzer's original plan put a lot of Dem seats in the NY legislature in jeopardy--tat's how badly it polled for them.)

[clarice]

***Told them, this issue is a killer for them?(Spitzer's original plan put a lot of Dem seats in the NY legislature in jeopardy--tHat's how badly it polled for them.)***

[maryrose]

Of course Hil supports it -she is the beneficiary if all these illegal immigrants-{not the cutesy undocumented workers handle}vote illegally for her. I wouldn't be surprised if Spitzer and Hil cooked up this scheme together. Unfortunately as clarice states it's a political loser in the general election. Hillaryland lost big time last night in the debate, and now have to deal with the fallout. Roger Simon's article is the best reference for what went down.I saw the debate-she was waffling all over the place and lying{which she is particularly good at doing. Some would say she's been taught by the master.

[Tonto]

Only slightly OT -- any guesses (particularly knowledgeable ones) who/what this might be? Not Edwards, per Rosenbaum.

Ron Rosenbaum

[LindaK]

Hillary was looking for a cheap shot against Bush and despite being the smartest woman in the universe, fumbled the ball. She was trying to dodge the question by setting up with the always popular "blame Bush." Surprisingly Dodd called her on the national security implications, but obviously didn't want to correct her on the immigration issue because as was pointed out Bush supported the bill Hillary was implying he opposed. The rest of the dems were pathetic. The exchange made it clear to me that it doesn't matter how much Hillary dodges, lies and weaves, her competition for the nomination are a bunch of snivelling boys.

[Rick Ballard]

"her competition for the nomination are a bunch of snivelling boys."

You have to admit it is very difficult to face down a dominatrix when one doesn't possess a spine.

Clarice,

It's remarkable to watch the shrinking of the immigration "issue". The Dems are really having a helluva time finding suitable groups to use in evoking the pathos necessary to cloud judgement.

AFAICT the popular consensus is that the AA community has received a sufficency of "help", Juan Valdez can damn well hie himself back to Colombia and get to picking more coffee beans and the Feckless Dimwit family can go find a real JOB to PAY for insurance. What's a committed class warrior to do when the electorate won't buy any more of the tried and true drivel that has purchased votes so easily in the past?

I'm actually feeling rather cheerful at the moment with the under 45 segment of the population. They don't appear to be nearly as dimwitted as the Boomers and Geezers who swallowed the progressive hook.

I wonder if constant exposure to "progressive [lack of] thought" in the classroom has actually generated the contempt which it deserves due to its distance from reality?

[clarice]

I know that it does, Rick, and I share your optimism.
I do think the IT and Fox and alternate news sources are making it harder for the progressives to pull off this stuff. In the WaPo today which buries the good news that we're winning Iraq (see Don Surber) Ruth Marcus takes after the 527s and their role in the Ogonski/Tsongas race, suggesting that unless the FEC really levies meaningful punishment for violations, these CFR sidesteps will just be considered the cost of doing business,

In order words, she just woke up to something that the blogosphere's been reporting for at least 4 years.

[clarice]

***"OTHER words"**********

P.S. How wrong were the pundits on the pressing desire for comprehensive immigration reform? Totally, it seems to me. Kaus has been reporting that simply enforcing the rules is leading toa substantial flight home out of the border states.And the DREAM Act was a Dem nightmare.

[kim]

So Tonto, what would the detumescence of Bill's organ of power do for the demeanour of sniveling boys? Kemo sabe?
======================

[kim]

And Steve is roasting anew the Piltdown Mann over Bristlecone coals.
==============================

[Gmax]

I have to tell you that my Hispanic friends have no real love for illegal immigration. As long as the focus is on enforcing the laws and not just picking on Hispanics, that flies even with the Hispanic voters. Now illegals cant vote, which is why I say Hispanic voters. Illegals probably differ from their legal cousins on this, but even in NY they will have a hard time expressing their opinion at the polls.

[Jane]

I too am optimistic. Then I remind myself that it's early and wonder how many Foley's Hillary has up her sleeve.

[jimmyk]

I liked this by Senator Dodd:

... we need to deal with the attraction that draws people here.

Yes, we definitely need to make the U.S. less attractive. Raise taxes, weaken security, ... sounds like the Dem platform alright.

[clarice]

Is it Huma?
C'mon let the story out LAT

[Bill in AZ]

Poor Hillary - and poor Russert. Oddly enough, he prolly doesn't even remember the debate last night.

[Jane]

Huma is not big enough. I think it's Bill and Elizabeth Edwards...

[MayBee]

Oh Clarice. It has to be.

[Jane]

AS Don Surber says:

These are the same media elites who have had no trouble using counterfeit documents a month ahead of an election to try to bring down a president.

These are the same media elites who put on Page 1 stories about how we are tracking al-Qaeda — legally — when our spies asked them not to.

These are the same media elities that bring us false stories from Jamil Hussein in Iraq and which publish doctored photos from the Middle East.

When did they go all church lady on us?

I now know more about Larry Craig’s restless foot syndrome than I care to.

This is the same LA Times that reported just before the election on Ahnuld’s sexual pranks on movie sets.

Spill it, LA Times. Sitting on a story like this is an abuse of the power of the press. Give the damned light already. We dumb bunnies will somehow manage to find our way.

[Rick Ballard]

You mean there's gonna be a Hilz' Honey collection to go with the Bill's Bimbos set? I wonder if Adulterers R Us will be the sole sales venue?

I'll give Miz Clinton the nod for taste if that's a good photo.

[PMII]

I really dislike all of the dinocraps immensely. They are all totally useless but I will change mu opinion of them, if they all go to medical school, move to Mexico, and offer free medical care down there. Bunch of communists!!!

Thanks, I feel better.

[Sue]

Did anyone else notice John Edwards has removed the mole on his upper lip? You think he thought the mole cost him the 2004 election?

[Jane]

Oh I just followed the second link and realized it was Hillary having the affair with Huma, I thought Ellen was (which begs the question - where did portia de Rossi go?).

That's a much better rumor. I like it. I really like it.

[Paul Zrimsek]

We're putting the band back together.

Tom, you were the backbone, the nerve center of a great Right Wing Attack Machine. You can make that live, breathe, and jump again.

[Enlightened]

Well, if it is Huma, and LAT goes public with it - Hillary can either confirm, or deny.

If she denies - she loses the gay vote.
If she confirms - she loses everything.

Hmmm.

[MayBee]

Sue-
You're right! I knew there was something different about him. That mole was really distracting. Sadly, now I listen to what he's saying.

[kim]

Knock? Knock?

Huma's here!
=============

[Appalled Moderate]

Nice speculation, folks, but gossip media also spotlights John Cusack.

[Jane]

The resident lesbian says she might vote for Hillary if she comes out. (I hope I can talk her out of it)

Personally I don't see how she can come out and remain married to Bill. America just doesn't seem quite down with that.

[Sue]

What about private sexual behavior is relevant? What about a marriage belongs in the coverage of a presidential campaign? Does it go to the judgment of the candidate in question?

Interesting paragraph, when set next to the Hillary/Huma rumor.

[MayBee]

AM- John Cusak could have been Huma's Lou Diamond Phillips. Or her Reese Witherspoon. Or, for that matter, her Bill Clinton.

[Jane]

Hillary is having an affair with John Cusack too?

Wow.

[clarice]

Huma is gorgeous. The early accounts of her is that she is ALWAYS at Hil's side and that she is always dressed in very expensive clothes and well-tootsed out. Now, her parents do not seem wealthy and the Chief of Staff of a Senator isn't raking in THAT much money.
She had no address and claimed she stayed at her sister's Manhattan Apt. A few months ago it was reported she'd bought an apt at 12th and U in D.C. That may be a "transitional" neighborhood, but it's so early in the transition I'd not leave a Hermes bag there unattended.

And now this blogger says she answers Hil's phone at her D.C. address in the mornings.

I don't know if they are having an affair. I don't know if this is the LAT's scoop--but if you look at the earlier Vogue and Daily Observer stories the authors seem to be leaving breadcrumbs on the trail.
Just saying.

[cathyf]

SEN. CLINTON: Well, what Governor Spitzer has agreed to do is to have three different licenses; one that provides identification for actually going onto airplanes and other kinds of security issues, another which is an ordinary driver's license, and then a special card that identifies the people who would be on the road.

SEN. DODD: That's a bureaucratic nightmare.

Well this is a little picky point, but in IL when they take your picture they have 3 different backgrounds that they switch off. One color is for under 21 (can't drink), one color is for over 65 (get the senior discount), and the other color for 21-64. Even our bureaucrats were smart enough to figure it out.

Or they can get an international drivers license. (Or licence ;-)

[Appalled Moderate]

clarice:

Wel, if true, it proves Hillary has much, much better taste than Bill.

Seriously, I can undertand the problems LAT is having with this story, if this is the one. There is no sex harassment hook to the story -- just a new wrinkle to the Bill/Hill disfunction. And I am a little bit hard pressed to find the relevence to Hill's ability to do her job. This woman is going to appear in the public eye. Her history, closeness to Hillary, and photogenic looks sort of dictate that.

[Appalled Moderate]

one last thought -- the blogger is quoting an anonymous DoJ official. How would he know? (If it were secret service - I'd give a touch more weight to this)

Also, I just dont see Hillary being reckless enough to conduct an affair. That's Bill's job.

[Sue]

The fact that she is Muslim would provide an ethical reason to keep quiet. In their mind, anyway.

[MayBee]

It isn't that there's no sexual harassment hook. It's that it is a)it involves the first woman with a legitimate chance of getting elected. Do they want to derail that with a personal scandal?
b)It is non-traditional. If it were a man having an affair with his assistant, I think they'd have much less trouble reporting it.
This is new territory.

[clarice]

AM--We may have a different view of the electorate, but I suspect that if word got out that she was having an affair with (a) a woman;(b) a subordinate on her (govt) payroll, and (c) a Moslem, it would spell trouble for her. It is hard to see how even Lanny Davis and Begala could sweep all that away with "old news", "nothing going on here", can't we just move on.

[cathyf]

Kaus has been reporting that simply enforcing the rules is leading to a substantial flight home out of the border states.

Nah. The substantial flight home is all about the collapse of the housing bubble eliminating all those construction jobs. The Federal Reserve brought 'em here and the Federal Reserve is makin' 'em go home...

But seriously, before you can generate any support for any law or another first people have to believe that whatever immigration laws we have will be something other than mere wishful thinking.

[Porchlight]

The early accounts of her is that she is ALWAYS at Hil's side and that she is always dressed in very expensive clothes and well-tootsed out. Now, her parents do not seem wealthy and the Chief of Staff of a Senator isn't raking in THAT much money.

For what it's worth, Googling yields FEC hits for Hillary's campaign suggesting Huma is receiving quarterly disbursements of about $25K-$27K. Here is the most recent I found, for $26,878.25 filed on 10/15/07 (scroll down to Abedin, Huma):

DISBURSEMENTS BY PAYEE

[Sue]

JURY HATES PHELPS: The father of a fallen Marine awarded $2.9 million by jury that found leaders of a fundamentalist church had invaded the family's privacy when they picketed the Marine's funeral... Developing...

Woohoo! I love this jury!

[Sue]

Here is the the story on the 2.9 million jury award.

[Sue]

Shoot. Even if the appellate court throws out the jury award, they had to pay an attorney to defend them. I hope every family that has been hurt by these kooks files suits against them. Make them spend all their time and money defending themselves in court. Every jury in America will do the same thing to them.

[clarice]

The Phelps really are awful! Good news.

[clarice]

Porchlight. on about 100k a year, less taxes, no one can afford the stuff she's reportedly been wearing--unless she never pays for food or shelter or anything else.

[Sue]

Or wears fake. ::grin::

[Porchlight]

Porchlight. on about 100k a year, less taxes, no one can afford the stuff she's reportedly been wearing--unless she never pays for food or shelter or anything else.

That was pretty much my conclusion, too. Prada bags aren't cheap. Who knows, maybe the designers that were falling all over her in the NY Observer article are comping her some swag, knowing she'll be photographed constantly during the campaign. Oscar de la Renta is apparently a friend of hers. Could free couture for Hillary's aide be considered a campaign donation? ;)

[clarice]

Let's recap--If Rosenbaum wasn't being pawned..he says everyone knows and is dancing around this..Aside from the Edwards thingy which we know about which he says is NOT the thing the LAT is sitting on we have broad hints from publications as diverse as VIllage Voice, Vogue, NY Daily Observer.
(I assume this is NOT a Rep front runner since we know the LAT has never had any compunction about running stuff on them no matter how thin the sourcing, how damaging to the campaign and hos irrelevant it was.