Defending The Improbable

A Scripps-Howards News service story tells us that the conspiracists are alive and well in America:

Many Americans still believe in conspiracies

By KEVIN CROWE and GUIDO H. STEMPEL III
Scripps Howard News Service
2007-11-23 00:00:00

Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings, according to a Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll.

A national survey of 811 adult residents of the United States conducted by Scripps and Ohio University found that more than a third believe in a broad smorgasbord of conspiracy theories including the attacks, international plots to rig oil prices, the plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy in 1963 and the government's knowledge of intelligent life from other worlds.

The high percentage is a manifestation, some say, of an American public that increasingly distrusts the federal government.

Distrust, indeed.  But the truth is out there!

Andy Soltis of the NY Post calmly makes a reasonable point:

'BLAME U.S. FOR 9/11' IDIOTS IN MAJORITY
'PLOTS' THICKEN IN SHOCKING POLL

...

The findings followed a 2006 poll by the same researchers, who found that 36 percent of Americans believe federal government officials "either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action" because they wanted "to go to war in the Middle East."

...

Anger at the federal government and skepticism in general by younger Americans is fueling the popularity of crackpot conspiracy theories.

ThinkProgress denounces conspiracy theories yet joins in on the other side:

As frequent readers of this site are well aware, ThinkProgress does not condone 9/11 conspiracy theories which allege the attacks were an inside job. But whether the Bush administration failed to heed warnings of a terrorist strike is not a conspiracy theory — it is a fact.

Here are some bits of information the NY Post may want to read up on:

1) Bush received intel briefing on Aug. 6, 2001 entitled “Bin Laden Determined To Strike In US.” The briefing specifically warned to “patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks,” particularly targeted at New York.

2) CIA Director George Tenet briefing Condoleezza Rice and other top administration officials on July 10, 2001 about a specific urgent and looming threat from al Qaeda.

3) An FBI agent in Phoenix sent a memo to FBI headquarters on July 10, 2001, which advised of the “possibility of a coordinated effort” by bin Laden to send students to the United States to attend civil aviation schools.

The alarming nature of the Scripps poll is not that 62 percent of Americans believe the government ignored warnings of 9/11; it’s that nearly 40 percent still aren’t aware of that fact.

Well, "ignored warnings of 9/11" is a bit ambiguous and understated - here is the specific Scripps-Howard question:

I'd like to ask about some conspiracy theories that are sometimes mentioned among Americans. Please tell me whether you think each of these are very likely, somewhat likely or unlikely. So when I say that oil companies are conspiring to keep gasoline prices high, is that very likely, somewhat likely or unlikely?

Very Likely ...................... 50
Somewhat Likely................... 31
Unlikely.......................... 14
Don't Know/Other .................. 5

How about that some people in the federal government had specific warnings of the 9/11 attacks in New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings. Is this very likely, somewhat likely or unlikely?

Very Likely....................... 32
Somewhat Likely................... 30
Unlikely.......................... 30
Don't Know/Other................... 8

With that intro it ought to be clear that Scripps Howard was not asking whether the Administration may have had warnings that something was amiss - the question used the phrase "conspiracy theories" and asked about "specific" warnings.  Subsequent questions and answers are even wilder: 42% think it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that the Feds had advance warning of the JFK assassination; 37% think the Feds have proof of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe and of flying saucers.  That certainly jibes with the notion that Americans believe all sorts of odd things (but no questions about whether Elvis lives?).

As to the point about the Presidential Daily Brief from Aug 6 2001, honestly - would it strain ThinProgress to present a bit more context?  Here is what the PDB said about hijackings:

We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.

A reasonable reader, or even George Bush, would interpret that as a conventional hijack-for-hostages scenario, not the actual 9/11 plot.

ThinProgress does provide quite a punchline, courtesy of Atrios; maybe Soltis ought to berate his own editors.

Comments

[Semanticleo]

Again, I say it might be beneficial to use your skepticism in an objective manner, rather than with that Verrryyy selective lens you peer at the world through. The Financial Marketplace has a friend in Maguire.

Everything else, go suck a rock

[Rick Ballard]

The sound of one synapse misfiring.

Again.

[Walter]

... more than a third believe in a broad smorgasbord of conspiracy theories including the attacks, international plots to rig oil prices, the plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy in 1963 and the government's knowledge of intelligent life from other worlds.

And in possibly related news, roughly half of all Americans have below-average intelligence.

NTTAWWT

[narciso]

As usual context is everything; Time led with these insinuations about the PDB back in 2002; Sadly the New York Post went along
with it. The hijacking wasn't strictly targeted at NY; the airports were Boston and Dulles as I recall. No names were listed on either the August 2001 PDB or the
July 2001 NSA intercept. This was mostly due to the Gorelick memo; which prevented
CIA to share data with the likes of FBI agent Soufan regarding the whereabouts of
Al Midhar and Al Hamzi. Interestingly the
one who recruited and trained these two in Turkey, Louika Sakka, was involved in the
jihadist pipeline in Iraq; and is in jail
for his bombings in Istambul. Ziad Jarrah
was another person of interest; not mentioned in the report. Had they been able to track Jarrah from the Hamburg cell, they
would have likely found Atta and Ramzi bin
Al Shibh. Interestingly enough; Mustafa Atef (late of Afghanistan, 2001) and Seif al Adel; aka Col. Mohammed Mokkawi; who Lawrence Wright identified as a pioneer in the 'using of passenger planes as missiles' a guest of the Iranian govt implicated in the May 2003 bombings in Saudi; referred to in "The Kingdom' were both mentioned in the December 1998 PDB 'that dare not speak its name'; because it would question why the Clinton admin. opposed the attack on the
falconry camp in 1999;( short answer Richard
Clarke was negotiating an arms deal with the
UAE whose princeling was at the camp; re Timmerman's Shadow Warriors)or why we went
to war four months later in a country were
Zawahiri's brother was working for the Saudi
charity IIRO.
The fact is; as the delayed CIA IG's report shows; there was very little effective action on the anti-AQ front. Cofer Black did his part; along with Jeff O'Connell; who was unfairly tagged by one of
the "Jersey Girls" as responsible for the slip up with Al Midhar and Al Hamzi. 'Rich' ran the TRODPOINT and JAWBREAKER involved in the falconry camp and Tarnak Farms attempts teams out of Uzbekistan. The two Garys, Shroen & Berntsen did their part; although Schroen was responsible for recruiting the likes of General Atta Mohammed and the other warlord whose forces defected to Bin Laden, near Tora Bora and the Parachinar salient. The passes in that region are treacherous; having waylaid many
a British expedition in the century of intervention in the Northwest Frontier; recorded in Kipling, Conan Doyle & Henty.

[Ann]

Semanticleo, Don't read this your head will explode!

When and Why Mice Roar [Victor Davis Hanson]

We might have to add Victor to the mud wrestling list.

[Walter]

Should I be pleased or concerned that I [think that I] understand a complete narciso comment?

[Semanticleo]

"The sound of one synapse misfiring.

Again."

You should relish any company in this ghost town.

[Lotin demon scamp]

Kennedy was assassinted by Shriver because of the Green Berets.

Life forms from - other worlds are creations of Lucifer like cloned humans and religion covers this up because non religous people can't handle the truth. The government works with these. Bush Sr. traded for the Satan's device(UFO), which, it turns out, ceases all things in existence; actually God's plan. Clinton traded for seeing shit with his eyes closed and hearing voices from the future describing Mars etc., but its not his fault because Bush said 'don't look back' which meant don't go back in time like dems did.

9/11 was in the middle of a national guard exercise looking for a plane to be flown into a building in NY.

London bombing was in the middle of private security firm exercise looking for multiple bombers wearing backpacks and had an employee on the radio describing the exercise as the terror happened.

Trodpoint have anything to do with bearing point and the Afghanistan contracts?

Jersey is usually a set up to arrest terrorists.

[Rick Ballard]

"Should I be pleased or concerned that I [think that I] understand a complete narciso comment?"

Well, I'm always pleased when I think that I mught have. Not that it's happened a lot.

Narciso,

I've been wanting to ask your opinion on the probability that the Sunni sheiks in Iraq will stay bought for a year or so. My bet is that they start asking for more dough in April or May and let loose a few nutters to wreak havoc for a bit as an ante.

I hope I'm wrong and I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[narciso]

They may hold out for more; only to assuage their guilt for having collaborated with the likes of the Wahhabist Ilkwan who invaded Iraq about 80 years ago; and was
repelled by the likes of Capt. John Bagot
Glubb (future Glubb Pasha and founder of the Arab Legion)and the Awazim & Muntafiq
tribes in the South. The Dulaimi, of Anbar
and Jibbur of the Salahuddin region did little then; that's why they are making up for it now. In this way; Gen, Petraeus, and
a limited way Col. Hector Mirabile in Ramadi before him; were the successors to
Glubb Pasha so many years ago.

[narciso]

Seriously, Lotin, what are you smokin'; Everyone knows it was the Greys in league with Agent Steel of MJ-12; Am I the only one who saw "Dark Skies".Seriously, TRODPOINT refers to the anti-UBL operations carried out by Northern Alliance members from 1998-2001 with CIA assistance. Hey I got it from Bob Woodward and he's never wrong? Despite having virtually outed two CIA officers in his second book Walter I'll consider it a complement I think. For what it's worth.

[Walter]

With my record, narciso, I'm not certain whether you should be pleased or concerned.

But it's my pleasure if you are pleased.

[Sara]

Talk about conspiracy idiots:

Rather: 'I Believe They Are Authentic'

The Hollywood Reporter: If this goes to court, in order for CBS to win they would be in the strange position of having to prove their own news story about President Bush and his National Guard service was false, will they not? Dan Rather: It’s a very complicated case. Frankly, on that point, I’m just not sure. But the report was true.

THR: The documents were authentic?

Rather: The documents were a part of the story. But the story was about what is known, and questions unanswered, about President Bush’s service, and what we reported was true. This lawsuit is directed at Viacom, CBS, its ownership and its management. It has two parts: A contract with me that they broke, and the second part has to deal with fraud and how they handled the story. Basically, (it’s) the undue influence of the corporatization and the politicization of news coverage, some of which I didn’t know was happening at the time. Some goes back to our breaking the story of Abu Ghraib.

THR: But were the National Guard documents authentic?

Rather: I believe they are authentic. I believed it at the time, I believe it now.

THR: So all the people who have pointed out, for example, that the particular font on the documents didn’t even exist back then, they are wrong?

Rather: I’m glad you asked about that because, unfortunately, there has been a lot written and said about it, saying they were bogus, they were forgeries, none of which has stood up. But I do want to come back to the documents being just part of the story. The core of the story — what a journalist tries to do — is get the truth, or as close to the truth as possible. We did that. Our story was true.

I think Rather has had a complete psychotic break or something is not right with his head.

[Ann]

Another conspiracy or defending the improbable?

DRUDGE has a headline about Hillary and Huma which talks about an article in the TIMES OF LONDON

Why would he post slander without any proof?

Does anyone remember how he leaked Monica? Was it just a tease at first? The Clinton machine will be all over this, so why start it if you got nada?

[narciso]

Not surprisingly, Dan Rather has a cameo in that moonbat graphic novel'Shooting War' I reference earlier; serving as a conscience of sorts for the Kos-like blogger who's the hero of the piece. That work for Cuban's HD-Network has really driven him over the edge; with his slash and burn pieces on electronic voting machines and Airbus are among the craziest. Maybe he can do a Dan & Connie redux with Judith Regan. Courage, What's the Frequency again

[Lo tin de mon camp]

Majestic was a radio station owned by Mr. Rogers. Operation Majestic was trying to stop all the alien UFO shit back in WWII that we went through with Clinton. Americans helping out Canadians. It all went real bad and Mr. Rogers died young. Kennedy was an operation majestic like Clinton. Kennedy was killed by Lester Pearson as payment for the CIA offing Mr.Rogers.

Woodward went to Toronto, home of Mr. Rogers, to out Val and her NSA dad and Joe and his diplomat dad.

Rather should have known all this was because of the Niger fake ones. Downing Street memo was sent to Con Yers. That was MI5 or 6.

[Rick Ballard]

The article itself ain't much.

Rehash and much too light - no Hsu drop at all.

[bgates]

I don't know why anyone would get worked up over these polls. Scripps mostly just makes them up as cover for their plan to get child geniuses recruited through the Scripps National Spelling Bee to raise Edward Scripps from the grave so he can conquer the world with his zombie army.

[Ann]

For those of you who might have watched "The Devil Wears Prada", that picture on DRUDGE from the TIMES OF LONDON is making me laugh.

You know, something like "The Devil makes Huma Carry Her Crap"

Note: It will not go over big in Iowa. Just like the "no tip" did!

[Ann]

Rick,

Thanks for linking the article, I should of ,but from the article:

"Nobody is sure who is behind the attacks on Mrs Clinton and Mr Obama, but the claims of lesbianism and Islamic extremism have found fertile ground on right-wing websites"

Why would DRUDGE go there and headline this?

[Rick Ballard]

Nary a clue, Ann. Drudge isn't someone I've ever followed closely.

[Ann]

Coincidence ?

From Newsbusters.org:

Bill Clinton: Hillary 'Doesn't See Any Sense to Extramarital Sex'

Let me just say, that I hate dirty political tricks. But I can not believe DRUDGE would even hint at something that was not true.
His reputation will be dust. Maybe he is getting false information from the Hillary camp, but his radar is pretty good.

[PaulL]

Relax, Ann. Drudge did not print the story when it first started. We discussed the story here quite a bit, and there were even complaints that Drudge was ignoring it!

Drudge is following a time-honored tradition in the press, of reporting on something once-removed. He's simply writing that another paper mentions it, and then he emphasizes that they don't claim to know whether it is true or not, but they are just acknowledging that people are talking about it. All true.

It's sort of like when an interviewer asks someone a question, starting with, "There are people who wonder if you're not lying when you say . . ." The interviewer is removing himself from calling the person a liar directly, but accomplishing the same thing.

[PaulL]

My guess is that Hillary is not really having an affair with her aide. But I do think that it is more likely that Hillary is having sex with her than with Bill.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

You should relish any company in this ghost town.

If you were any company, we would.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Sonuvabitch! it worked! I can post again!

[Mike]

So let me see if I have this straight: the moonbats spend the last several years promoting this and all manner of similar spittle-flecked conspiracy-theory stupidity, then halfway denounce it, then go back on that?

Um...okay. Synapses misfiring indeed. Mighty dim lamps they hope to lead a nation with, seems to me.

[sharpest tool in the shed]

Free:
Transparent cordless extension cord

Hard to find!

Craiglist

[Sara]

Hey Charlie, good to see you. We've all been wondering what happened to you. Your ears must have been ringing.

[Stan]

"No names were listed on either the August 2001 PDB or the July 2001 NSA intercept."

You're looking at this the wrong way.

One of the more interesting facts about 9/11 is that the jihadist in custody who provided the intel disclosed in that PDB was in completely isolated custody until after the 9/11 attacks.

Yet when questioned by the FBI immediately after the attacks he was able to describe in detail every aspect of how the attacks were pulled off, right down to the seating placements and the weapons used.
This is because he trained the hijackers.

He also scouted out the targets in the African embassy bombings, provided classified US intel on US ports in the middle east before the Cole bombing, wrote many al Qaeda manuals, ran their training camps, etc, etc, etc. He was also known to the CIA and worked for both the FBI and Army during all this.

Yet the prize intel the national security apparatus was bringing the president at a time when the intel "system was flashing red" was indeed non-specific and broad historical assessments.

Whether or not the PDB contained enough actionable intel is really irrelevant when you realise that it came from the same jihadist who knew the plot back to front, but they never got this info from him because he outplayed them for years.

And it wasn't a matter of not being able to torture a guy to get him to tell all. The fact of the matter is the US simply didn't take the threat of domestic terrorism seriously enough until it happened on an unimaginable scale. The key word being unimaginable.

As every thorough examination will tell you, 9/11 occurred after failures at EVERY level of US national security. It didn't happen because of one failure, but all of them failing certainly did help.

[kim]

I about half think this phenomenon is linked to the failure of MSM as an institution.
=============================

[kim]

Charlie, it's easy to misunderestimate the intrinsic value of snark directed at Semanticleo.
==================================

[narciso]

So you're talking about Ali mohammed; the Egyptian special forces veteran, member of
the Istanbouli cell that killed Sadat. Who
penetrated US Special Forces at the 5th SFG;
PsyOps division; But he was in custody since
1998. Or are you talking about someone else.

It really is embarassing that they fire people of the caliber of Fred Pruitt, of Rantburg, because of some off site bulletin board work. Yet they keep the likes of Paul Pillar; the South Asia expert who under-
estimated Al Queda. Tyler Drumheller, the one who really believed Naji Sabri's every word. They rehire Sulick to head operations despite the flap at the embassy in Belgrade; bring back Murray, who seems to value Iranian govt sources in the Vevak Sepah Pasdaran; over
Iranian exiles in Beirut and Paris. Actually
Claire Berlinski predicted the inverse hiring patterns in "Loose Lips": She says she worked for the Commerce Depts overseas section, but that's as flimsy as Brewster/Jennings. The best espionage writers; McCarry, LeCarre,et al never acknowedged their intelligence connections until several books into their
ouevre. Her take on how Iranian agents 'game' the system vis a vis the city of Isfahan is first rate; in the guise of a internet romance gone wrong
.
John Weisman portrayed this world with distressing accuracy in his roman a clef; Direct Action. Which ironically, saw a govt. contractor full of former Company officials modeled on Claridge & co; along with a less
cynical Bob Baer type unravel the events
behind a little known AQ plot; which has been
not surprisngly dissavowed; mostly because it showed Mugniyeh's HizBullah collaborated with Moroccan jihadi like those involved in Madrid
bombing; the reason why Tenet's resignation was fast-tracked and Goss appointment was expedited and as you may have guessed by now; the forces behind his removal.

[kim]

Say it ain't so, Joe.
===========

[Semanticleo]

Just another conspiracy theory............

http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2440

[Semanticleo]

Just another conspiracy theory............

http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2440

[Semanticleo]

Just another conspiracy theory............

http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2440

[Semanticleo]

Just another conspiracy theory............

http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2440

[PaulL]

Thanks for the post, Narciso. Was Goss able to accomplish much in his short stay? I assume reform lost when Goss was, in relatively short order, removed?

[Cecil Turner]

Whether or not the PDB contained enough actionable intel is really irrelevant when you realise that it came from the same jihadist who knew the plot back to front, but they never got this info from him because he outplayed them for years.

It's certainly supportable that we didn't take domestic terrorism seriously prior to 9/11, but it's also obvious from the PDB that it was compiled from several reports, none of which contained actionable intelligence. It's also worth noting that this "warning" fell on the heels of a threat warning system that had been "blinking red" for months. It's even less impressive when one recalls it was in response to a direct query from the President on domestic threats (as opposed to foreign ones that dominated the intelligence reports). It wasn't a heads up about a heretofore unknown threat to the US mainland.

Moreover, it's hard to overstate how useless the intel in the PDB was: generic descriptions of Bin Laden's planning cycle, recruiting efforts, and his desires to bring the fighting to America. I can imagine the response at the NSC meeting:

"That's all you've got? We can't do anything with that."

AFAICT, the only outcome was an FAA circular noting the possibility of a hijacking (that was both uselessly general and incorrectly implied a traditional hijack-for-ransom scenario). And the bottom line of the PDB was this:

The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the US that it considers Bin Ladin-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our Embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives.

Which appears to be saying: "we're working on it."

[kim]

Cleo, it is an error to make public gain out of private demons.
====================================

[Walter]

Just another ...

Semanticleo,

For those without the inclination to encode html, someone recently suggested that one could drop the link in the "URL:" box above the comment field. It seems to work well for most news citations, and might be more useful than the link to "DanaWard"'s blank Typekey profile.

I believe that the US was right to invade Iraq. I believe that deposing Saddam was appropriate and necessary given the apparent threat from state-sponsored Islamic terrorism. (Have you noticed that fewer people now believe that the Iraq war was/is a mistake than believed that we'd experience another attack equivalent to 9/11 in the US within a year? I know you disagree, but I see a connection between the two.*) I think that Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were brilliant appointees who were poised to bring the Services into the modern era before they were otherwise distracted by events. And I think that most everyone** involved did the best they could with the tasks and capabilities they were given.

But the issues raised in your link ('I am Sullied' as the headline of an anti-war piece is a bit trite, don't you agree?) are similar to those which make me less comfortable with the continuation of the war. Our soldiers (and Marines and seamen*** and airmen) are fantastic and are doing great work.

Unfortunately, I'm with the neocon dreamers who believed (and may still!) that Arabs and Persians deserve and are capable of honest and effective self-government. We, as a country, should not have an official or unofficial policy which has the effect of establishing and maintaining a kleptocracy.

So, while I am grateful that Petraeus has been able to find a way to keep our soldiers and Iraqis safe, I'm far more open to a precipitous withdrawal leading to the (re-)establishment of a dictatorship if the alternative is bribing the (now not-so-) bad guys not to hurt us while securely establishing corrupt officials in power. It's cheaper and leads to the same result. After all the hassles Saddam endured over the (his?) last few years, the new dictator would be far more likely to respect us than the last one was.

I am not quite there yet, but as a fiscal conservative, I am getting less, not more, satisfied. I cannot understand why the Democrats do not offer Bush every dollar he wants for the military and contractors providing direct service to them without authorizing 'development' funds. While it wouldn't "End The War NOW", it'd be a lot harder for the President to veto.

+++++++++++++

* If only that the 'public' ain't always right, even in a democracy. One of the definitions of 'g' is the ability to recognize connections. Of course, by that measure, conspiracy theorists would be the most intelligent of all of us. I refine that broader definition by constraining 'connections' to those that actually exist. Of course, I am necessarily the sole arbiter of that distinction.

Without circularity, mankind would never have discovered the wheel.

** Yeah, I'm not too thrilled with the intelligence agencies. But I've felt that way for some time. I voted Libertarian in '88 rather than vote for a former CIA director as President.

*** My cousin just deployed to 'the Afganistan region' 'in support of' a SEAL team. It's only some comfort to know that, at the very least, the people he's with are scarier than those who'd like to hurt him.

[Joe]

I've always thought the warnings in 2001 from the CIA were as useful as saying 'A 16 year-old is looking to get laid on prom night'. It's so obvious as to be laughable, and so general as to be useless.

[PeterUK]

Septic Dear,calling someone a "rock sucker" is very rude,go and wash your head out with soap.

[kim]

C, did you see how they almost nailed Bhutto with her desire to kiss babies. The bomb was attached to a 1 year old the father repeatedly pressed toward Bhutto. Wretchard has the details at the Belmont Club.
=======================================

[Joseph Hertzlinger]

Isn't someone supposed to blame the Freemasons in a discussion like this?

[Mike G]

The one I'd like to see some conspiracy theorist explain is the presence of Barbara Olson on one of the 9/11 aircraft. Obviously that can't be coincidence, or an accident, that a high muckety-muck's wife is on the plane. So how did that work, the Bush-Cheney inner circle were sitting around plotting and Ted Olson said hey, as long as we're killing thousands of innocents, I'd love to get rid of my wife too? And Cheney said I hear you, bro, get her a ticket on one of these four flights? Because why not increase the risk of your infamous treason coming out by adding one guy's personal marital issues to the greatest crime in recent history. Makes total sense to me.

[anony-mouse]

Important point that bears reapeating whenever one of these conspiracy theory polls comes up: Talk is as cheap as it ever was. Meaning, it has been shown repeatedly people will commit to an idea in far higher numbers when there is no price to pay. Poll X may generate big% support for concept Y, but when those supporters are offered the opportunity to make some sort of deeper commitment to Y, the number of respondants still willing to go forward commonly drops by a factor of three or more.

[PeterUK]

The simplest solution would be to raid a few falafel establishments,round up some Arab looking individuals,the British police prefer Brazilians for this,water board confessions out of them stating that they were in the pay of Saddam Hussein,that he had a doomsday machine hidden in his bidet.Then bomb the shit out of Iraq,only invading after a couple of months continuous aerial bombardment.No US casualty figures,no Baghdad to pacify,free oil.
The "plotters" would of course be shot attempting to escape,again the British police favour Brazilians for this roll.
But if they had really wanted to get a result,they could have put a bomb under Congress,all problems solved.

[narciso]

It would be nice, if it would work that way; but it doesn't . The world portrayed in the movie "The Siege" is closer to the\reality. In your own native U.K. there
are 1500 plots underway at any one time.
Jean de Menezes' death was indeed tragic, but it doesn't detract from the reality of rooting out the jihadist; both at home and abroad. In Britain, the jihadist infra-structure from Mosque to MCB, Al Mujah-iroon; must be rooted out systematically. Those who lend any symapathy including publications, human rights groups, must
be supressed.

One could invade Saudi Arabia; hey we're in the neighborhood. It would instantly be interpreted as waging war on Islam; that doesn't bother me so much; we may eventually
have to take up that burden. It would be a macro campaign not unlike that seen in the shoot out in Al Suweidi in the Kingdom ; times a thousand. They would retaliate
worldwide everywhere at once. train stations, shopping centers, airports We've seen small examples of this in the work of the al Ghamdi, Al Quahtani and al Uteibi clans in Iraq, Chechnya, Afghanistan And those are maybe a few dozen clan members