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November 20, 2007

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Appalled Moderate

Since Kerry has never chosen to answer the charges by opening his records, you just have to assume he's hidng something (which may or may not relate to the actual charges). I really wish if Kerry is going to continue to not relaease this stuff, he'd stop complaining about how he's being trated. He has the ability to shut this down -- but he's much rather be both pompous and whiny about the whole thing.

As for the importance of this issue -- not very much. Kerry is not going to be President, nor will he run. Of course, since John K refuses to put this to bed, and his complaints about how meany mean everyone's been are amusing (if one likes their pomposity and cluelessness leavened with aggressive pseudo-humor), my guess is this will haunt him until he goes to that great Cambodia in the sky.

Sara

I watched the Pickens segment last night on H&C and Colmes, as usual, just kept firing his dumb questions, not allowing the guest time to answer. I liked it when Pickens just about said shut up and listen.

Pickens seems extraordinarily knowledgeable about the subject and won't allow Kerry to weasel around proving something without making his records public. As it should be.

And, of course, Colmes wanted to try to limit the subject to Kerry's brief 3 mo. stint in Vietnam and ignore the real Swift Boat issue, his treason and his total smearing of all returning Vets. Pickens is asking for records for '71 - '78, which, as we know, cover his Winter Soldier period. The period of Kerry's activities that really make him unfit for command.

Other Tom

Kerry is the authentic gift that keeps on giving. God, is that man dumb!

However, I do think ol' T. Boone led with his chin a bit on this one. I can't find any verbatim quote of his original challenge, but I don't believe he expressly limited it to SwiftVet ads--I think he just spoke of anything "the SwiftVets said." I would sure interpret that to mean what they said in their ads, because I don't believe they said anything other than in that medium. But I think O'Neill's book "Unfit for Command" is commonly, if wrongly, understood to be what they said. So there's a bit of a problem for T. Boone.

If you limit the challenge to statements made by and on behalf of the SwiftVet organization, I think Kerry could never in a million years establish that anything they said was untrue. Hell, a lot of what they "said" was simply quotes from Kerry himself.

I have dashed this off following a two-Martini lunch, which of course must be followed by a nice long nonny. After the nonny, I will actually go back and review the ads, and see whether what I have just said is defensible. And if it is not, I will of course change the subject, invent a few excuses, or claim to have been misquoted.

Sue

OT,

I can't find his exact quote, but since T. Boone financed the ads, I suspect, if he didn't actually say it, he was limiting the bet to what he was involved in. Wiggle room for Kerry, possibly, but in the end, I hope T. Boone ponies up the money either way. He spent 135 million on charities one year. What's a million more?

Sara

Then there is John Murtha. I cannot believe what I just read.
John Murtha: "War Can't Be Won Militarily;" American Troops' Enormous Progress Has Nothing To Do With Actual Victory

This senile old man has got to go. Check out his new challenger, Trower Russell. Seems like a winner to me.

H Aunt

Marks Kerry is was he part of the secret program to use lucifer to stare through enemy heads and later remote view? Was he promoted like Powell for his work and was it classified as remote viewing for DoD at CIA later? Did Powell get a secret silver star fo his combat? Did Kerry know about the TV at the UN that actually does all this without using your head? Was it a conspiracy to use people to worship lucifer instead fo Satan's TV t the UN?

Kerry can't make his records public because he's violated IIPA like Plame.

cathyf

I posted this on the other thread...

...Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which so far as I know spoke only through the ads they ran during the campaign.
What about the May 4, 2004, SBVT press conference? I watched the whole thing, back in the day, and there are quite substantive charges made there. It goes on for some 1 hour 21 minutes, and includes veterans making very specific charges. I doubt that the sum total of the SBVT ads adds up to more than a couple of minutes. If Pickens is really saying that the bet only applies to the ads and not to the press conference, then I'll accuse him of welshing on the bet.

But anyway, I said at the beginning that the form of the bet was stupid and to the extent that it changes the subject, something that bolsters Kerry. The strongest SBVT point was that Kerry lying about his military record in 2003 and 2004 ought to preclude him from the presidency. Any one substantive lie in a major campaign theme is unpresidential, so the claim that Kerry telling the truth about one thing of the multitudes that he was accused of lying about somehow fully rehabilitates him as presidential is, well, pathetic. Some of us have objected that Kerry supporters will pick on some irrelevancy, prove that it was mistaken, and then claim that Picken's payment of the $1 million proves that the SBVT were liars. That's not the problem. The problem is that Kerry may very well be able to prove that one of the substantive charges against him is false. That is not unlikely at all -- since Kerry has successfully hidden his military records, he may indeed be unjustly accused of something which those records would clear up. The problem (for him) with defending himself against one charge by selective release of records is that it draws attention to all of the charges, and also to the fact that he is selectively releasing records and hiding the rest. By creating a contest, Pickens has allowed Kerry a highly artificial venue to deal with the charges. We've already had the high-pitched accusation that expecting Kerry to tell the truth in this contest is unsporting. And I'm sorry, but setting this up as a contest has invited that accusation.

What I predict will happen is that Kerry will release some highly selected bits of documentation which prove him innocent of some more-or-less substantive charge made by one or more swifties. His partisans will go into full braying sportsfan mode, which is quite fair since Pickens is the one who set it up as a sporting event. They will demand the $1 million, and with the help of their fellow media partisans, will push the meme that Kerry has been totally exhonorated. If Pickens refuses to pay up, then they will harp that PickensAndTheSwifties are all liars, and here's the proof. If Pickens does pay up, then that will be touted as Pickens proved the Swifties were lying when he paid up. And that outcome will be totally Pickens' fault, because he is the one who defined the rules of the game such that one false SBVT claim exhonorates Kerry.

PeterUK

"Marks Kerry is was he part of the secret program to use lucifer to stare through enemy heads and later remote view?"

Of course,he has been working on "Project Lucifer" from the beginning,that is why he has "important" hair to hide the secret viewing device and the layers of tinfoil which protect his brain.

Sara

Sorry cathyf but I think you are dreaming or indulging in wishful thinking. Pickens said last night, and I believe him because I am one, that those ads were paid for by 155,000 individuals. These are vets or members of their families who will never forget Kerry's lies and smears. But if you want to believe Kerry over Medal of Honor vets, so be it.

Other Tom

I either never saw the press conference or had forgotten about it. But again, it strikes me that, so long as he is withholding documents that would shed light on the issue, Kerry is not well positioned to "disprove" anything any SwiftVet said. That doesn't prevent anyone else from doing so, and I should think that if there were false charges out there, people other than Kerry should be able to prove them false. Thus far no one has come forward to do so. Why not? Kerry doesn't need a million dollars, but if the SwiftVets have lied, surely there is some needy person with knowledge who can prove it. Where is he?

boris

I would draw a distinction between the ads and other stuff (book or conference) like between under oath and hearsay.

boris

Otherwise any differences between swift vets in the book becomes implicit proof that one claim must be false.

IIRC at Bay Hap a vet in the water( Thurlow?)rescuing crew of the mined boat reported hostile fire whereas another vet laying down supression machine gun fire reported no hostile fire.

Patrick R. Sullivan

Maybe Pickens could offer Scott McClellan a million dollars if he could produce [have] a clue:

“I stood at the White house briefing room podium in front of the glare of the klieg lights for the better part of two weeks and publicly exonerated two of the seniormost aides in the White House: Karl Rove and Scooter Libby,” McClellan wrote.

“There was one problem. It was not true.”

McClellan then absolves himself and makes an inflammatory — and potentially lucrative for his publisher — charge.

“I had unknowingly passed along false information,” McClellan wrote.

“And five of the highest ranking officials in the administration were involved in my doing so: Rove, Libby, the vice president, the president's chief of staff and the president himself."

pagar

"Exhonorates Kerry"
Nothing will ever exhonorate Kerry. He aided the enemy. He admitted he aided the Enemy
"I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks,".

The enemy admitted he aided Them.

"Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?
A: It was essential to our strategy.

Only one question needs to be answered by John Kerry and his anti American supporters-
How many names of American service members are on the Vietnam Wall because of your support for the enemy?

We need to close this unsavory chapter of American history out with the proper legal action against John Kerry, and get on to current problems. Why are Sen Reid, Rep Murtha, Rep Obey and others doing all they can to aid the enemy we are fighting now?

capitano

Chris Matthews: We don't need no steenking writers, we got Scott McClellan -- this will carry us through the holiday weekend -- 24/7...er 24/5.

Or as my wife says, like mother like son.

MikeS

I suspect T. Boone is dumb like a fox.

Presently Kerry can respond that he won't take Pickens up on his challenge because Pickens has asked him to put up a million of his own dollars if he can't prove that even one thing the Swifties said was false. But of course that money is only at risk if Kerry has been lying the whole time.

Kerry could complain that T. Boone insists that only the ads are subject to the challenge. Does that mean Kerry endorses the ads as 100% truthful?

What about releasing the relevant military records? Well Kerry claims he released 'em already. So what's the problem?

How 'bout the journal and movies Kerry made while on duty. Are they so embarrassing that Kerry would deny the Paralyzed Veterans of America a million dollar donation to keep them secret?

UV

Wasn't Kerry on the Intelligence Committee when Ames CIA violated IIPA? He probably would have been for keeping records quiet. Plame probably would have been for going to the news.

Pickens. There are allot of them. Murdock just lost a station in Georgia, maybe someone can get hold of the 125 million.

Yes, we all have websites!

narciso

I put my money on Pickens, after all he was the only one to make money in oil exploration in Texas in the 1980s, the
other was interestingly Ken Lay; which may have been why Rubin's Goldman Sachs picked him to head the merger of Houston Natural Gas and another company; which became Enron.
New York Magazine pointed out this detail; obliquely in a pre 9/11 profile of the great Rubin; the new financial angel for Citicorp; despite the fact that as head of
Citi-Europe; he oversaw the high balance of subprime; just like the Mexico financial positions when he was head of the 'vaunted'
NEC after the devaluations; for which he negotiated a bailout.

PeterUK

This simply brands Kerry as yesterday's man,today's hot topics are the war in Iraq,global warming,immigration,Kerry is still stuck in the paddy fields of Indo-China."Groundhog Day" again,and again,and again.

Sara

This simply brands Kerry as yesterday's man,today's hot topics are the war in Iraq,global warming,immigration,Kerry is still stuck in the paddy fields of Indo-China."Groundhog Day" again,and again,and again.

Because in his heart of hearts he knows he is a coward and a smear merchant, but his arrogant ego can't stand the idea that the rest of us know it too. He is pathological. He should be in Leavenworth.

r m flanagan

Are these facts we can agree on.

1. Kerry served in Vietnam ,was under fire.
and on one occasion pulled a wounded fellow officer out of the water .
2. Later he prominently opposed the War .

I accept that 2 is true and have no difficulty understanding why you would disdain him for it. Do you accept that (1) is true and does him credit ?

If you don't accept (1) any other questions about his record are redundant.Either that's such an horrendous lie on his part that the discussion is over OR you are so unwilling to accept established facts that the discussion is over.

Jim Lang

Pickens is a coward and a liar. See him run from a confrontation with Kerry.

RichatUF

Kerry's evolving Silver Star American Thinker Spet 04

Citation

JOM archives link

I was trying to find the certificate and the general orders-coming up empty.

Sara

On 1, I'll accept that he was in Vietnam and through his own fear he gunned the motor and dumped his man off the back of the boat and into the water. I'll accept that one of his purple hearts was for a rice pellet to the butt and the other one was a bruise on his arm.

On 2, he was more than a war opposer. He was a traitor and a shill for the communist propaganda machine.

Other Tom

Mr. Flanagan, I accept that he served in Vietnam and was under fire. I also accept that he pulled an enlisted Green Beret from the water. Whether he did so "under fire" is debatable and, in my view, very doubtful.

What is undisputed is that in the minutes before he pulled the soldier from the water, one of the four boats with which his boat was in company struck a mine and was seriously damaged, and some of its crew wounded. The other three boats went immediately to the aid of the stricken boat; Kerry--and Kerry alone--went to full throttle and headed for the open sea. It was apparently this sudden acceleration that caused the man to fall over the stern.

Only after it was readily apparent that the fire from the river banks--if ever there was any--at the mining site had been suppressed, Kerry turned around and headed back to join his colleagues in the rescue effort. On the way, he encountered the Green Beret in the water. It is hard to imagine that anyone in the US Navy would not have stopped to pick the man up; there was no earthly reason not to do so.

In the after-action report describing this incident--which appears to have been written by Kerry--he describes his boat as having proceeded for five thousand meters (about three miles) toward the mouth of the river under "intense automatic weapons fire." No one else recalls such fire at Kerry's location. Neither Kerry's boat nor anyone aboard it was struck by a single round of this intense fire. The Green Beret--who appears to have had no experience in river warfare before this incident--recalls that there was fire from the banks, but this was a very common misperception among those new to that type of action. Any time any enemy activity was suspected on the banks, the boats would open fire with .50 caliber machine guns, M-60's and M-i6's on full auto. Many, many outgoing rounds would strike the water, sending spectacular geysers into the air. The effect was very hard to distinguish from that caused by incoming fire, and many a newbie thought he was under fire when in fact he wasn't. It was something you got used to after a few such events.

The "wound" suffered by Kerry on this occasion was a bruised arm caused by his falling against the bulkhead of his boat when it made a high-speed turn to return to the scene of the mining. As it happens, a few hours earlier that same day he had been wounded in the backside by his own grenade, which he had dropped into a pile of rice in order to render it useless to the enemy. He didn't run fast enough, and was peppered with grenade shrapnel and rice which later had to be removed from his butt and the backs of his legs. Whether the purple heart awarded to him for the events of that day was based on the bruised arm or the self-inflicted shrapnel in the ass is not known, and will not be known unless and until we can see the records.

Do you understand why we distrust and detest this vainglorious fop?

RichatUF

Citations comparison FR thread

Sara

My husband went to Vietnam at almost the very same time as "the Coward." He was stationed at the very same location on the Mekong Delta. Yet, because he managed not to bruise his arm or shoot himself in the butt, he did his duty and served honorably there for almost a year and a half. Kerry managed to last 3 mo. He disgusts me. He shamed the Navy then, he continues to shame them now. And his smears against an entire generation of veterans will never be forgiven.

Other Tom

I should point out that there is a reason why the question of which "wound" was the basis for the purple heart is important.

To warrant the award, the wound must occur while engaged with the enemy. It is undisputed, and Kerry acknowledges, that the shrapnel-in-the-butt wound did not occur during any action at all; had it been incurred during an engagement, it would have qualified him for the award even though it was quite stupidly self-inflicted. On the other hand, the bruised arm, although probably describable as occurring during an engagement, is the kind of thing for which most naval officers would be far too embarrassed to accept the award. If some corpsman or staffer, far removed from the events of the day, thought that Kerry's shrapnel wound had been incurred during the mine incident (which is what everyone was talking about during the time he was being treated), the award would have been processed without anyone's giving it a second thought. Had it become known that he accepted the award for a bruised arm, he'd have never lived it down--and it would not have aided in a political career at all.

There is not room for a single scintilla of doubt that Kerry's first purple heart was awarded for a wound that was not only very minor, but was self-inflicted. Whether he was engaged with the enemy at the time is highly doubtful.

Soylent Red

He should be in Leavenworth.

Roger that Sara.

False testimony before Congress and meeting with the enemy during a time of war.

Either one enough to get him a job making big rocks into little rocks. And unless things were radically different when he was commissioned, things he positively knew were no-no's.

So this whole discussion is moot. There is documentary evidence, none of which JF'nK disputes, that makes him a felon.

Plus, he's just such an a**hole.

RichatUF

Sorry for the link dump:

Mysterious "V" device link

Note: I remember when this came up, but I thought for sure that the Kerry website had a DD-215 [a corrected DD-214] posted as his record of discharge. I also remember the "V" device and almost laughed out loud.


More on the evolving citations link

Does this make me a JOM operative?

kim

Was the SF officer Rassman wounded?
======================

Other Tom

The "V" flap is one that I think is pretty much innocent. The reason V's are not awarded with Silver Stars is that the valor part is taken for granted--it's naturally presumed to be a part of the award. There are lesser awards--the Bronze Star and the Navy Commendation Medal--that can be awarded with or without the V, and the V is known as the "combat distinguishing device." It would be redundant in the case of a Silver Star.

Kerry was just never sufficiently professional to be aware of this, so I imagine that, as usual, he resolved his doubt in favor of his own glory.

Sara

RichatUF: My husband has 1 Navy Commendation Medal and 3 Navy Achievement Medals, 1 of the Achievement medals was earned while in Vietnam. After reading your "V" link, does this mean he could have worn the V? I know his one Navy Commendation medal was awarded just before he retired because of his work as dockmaster docking our super secret nuke subs. It was highly dangerous work and required much precision, but no one was shooting, thank goodness. He did break an ankle when a cable broke and he slipped in the mud of the bottom of the drydock as he scrambled to get out of the way of a several ton block about to drop on his head. I don't think that counts though. :)

Other Tom

As far as I am aware Rassman was not wounded. He was a 1st Lt. in the Special Forces.

I hold no brief for Wikipedia, and don't cite it for the accuracy of anything, but here is its summary of the nature of the controversy over this event:

"This [Kerry's] account is disputed by members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who were also present during this incident. The PCF-94 (sans Kerry; both he and Rassmann were evacuated to the Spencer by PCF-43) aided in salvaging the PCF-3 which was struck, even though PCF-94 supposedly hit a mine. The PCF-3 had been blown clear out of the water but was not sunk (none of the boats were sunk). For the supposedly heavy fire, no damage was found on the exposed boats that couldn't be accounted for from previous days. And other than Kerry's injury, which may have been received due to his own carelessness earlier in the day, and those injured on PCF-3, no other injuries were reported. Yet the official report, which many believe was given to the Spencer's operator by Kerry later that evening, specified a running gauntlet of fire for 5000 meters (which is more than three miles, or six total, three miles out and three miles back in order for PCF-94 to return for Rassmann), from both banks. Rassmann did say, among his many conflicting stories, that he recalled seeing all of the boats, and particularly Kerry's PCF-94, run away from the scene and out of his view, as he was ducking under the water and coming up for air. At other times he contradicted himself, even to the extent of not consistently reporting that he was even on the PCF-94. Those others at the scene, however, say that the boats immediately opened fire on the banks after the explosion, but quickly ceased as no enemy fire was returned (the bombers likely fleeing into the brush). They then set about rescuing the PCF-3 crew who had been thrown into the water. And when a boat approached Rassman to pull him out, then Kerry's PCF-94 returned and cut off that boat. Rassmann struggled on the cargo net of PCF-94, he has said, though the technique for climbing would have been taught even to special forces personnel. And Kerry pulled him on deck."

kim

Well, I hope cathyf is wrong.

Kerry is in the odd situation of being both personally frustrated from not ever countering a Swiftboat claim and having been the object of 'Swiftboating', commonly, but mistakenly, understood to be an illegitimate political attack. His chagrin at the first is compounded by the apparent injustice of the 'illegitimate' attack. His problem is that the blind, stupid MSM has mistakenly created a canard. 'To Swiftboat' is to torpedo a politician with the truth.

My disagreement with cf is based on the expectation that any further press about the incident will only serve to slowly correct the public's misunderstanding of the term, 'to swiftboat'.

He may be deliberately testing the narrative; he may win, but I doubt it. He's a loser.
=======================================

kim

You see, as things stand now, the public thinks the Swifties lied. The ignorant part of the public, that is. That book sold almost a million copies, and as I like to say, some of them were white male landowners. This issue will resonate through the ages.
=========================================

hit and run

kim:
His problem is that the blind, stupid MSM has mistakenly created a canard. 'To Swiftboat' is to torpedo a politician with the truth.

You know, I was disappointed to find this at RealClearPolitics today, from Blake Dvorak:

"Giuliani is Slammed Twice on Sept. 11 Issues" (Newsday) The term "swiftboating," if it can be defined as a certain type of political attack, is thrown about carelessly, but what it should signify is an attack on a candidate's perceived strength -- as in Rudy Giuliani's performance on 9/11.

Well, garsh, I mean the MSM has it wrong trying to say it's any ol' slime, or a slime against a dem...because if it is an attack on a candidate's perceived strength, well, then, let's keep it in the lexicon, that's what it should mean.

RichatUF

OtherTom-

The "V" flap is one that I think is pretty much innocent.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. This was a critical error on his DD-214 and since he signed it. Another thing I noticed on the 214 is that the I just noticed was that the Education and Training block is empty.

As far as issues go this is fairly down the list, but does indicate to me a serious problem with the 214 and the Silver Star.

kim

To hoi polloi it has the flavor of an illegitimate attack at a politician's perceived strong point. It is clear that a significant minority of the public is aware of the ironic error.
=======================================

Sara

You see, as things stand now, the public thinks the Swifties lied.

Kim, I don't believe that. There are way way too many vets from that era, as well as their families, friends and extended families who know different. Maybe the 20-30 somethings that buy into the nutroots who haven't a clue, but "the public," no I don't think so.

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth website is what clued me into the existence of blogs. I participated there for a long time and the place was always jumping. And like Pickens said yesterday, over 155,000 of us contributed to pay for those ads and I'm very proud to say I was one and even though I live on next to nothing, they could have it all if it would put this man where he belongs.

And I've said this a gazillion times before, I'll let the actual vets argue over the medals and his combat performance, that is not my place to question. My beef starts with Kerry in 1971. One of the things I discovered on the Swifty site was how not alone I've been in my feelings all these years.

kim

The 'V' to me meant post hoc messing with the medal. I suspect he is counting on the Doug and William Show carrying the day; he's not accounted for the rocketeer in the spiderhole. He'll panic when he sees him.
=========================================

kim

Sara, the term is understood to mean an unfair attack. That is a canard.

And yes, vets and the military don't get the meaning wrong. It just alienates them further from MSM.
====================================

kim

I found the Swifties website in May of '04, and I remember thinking what an interesting point they had that nobody would ever hear of.

Then came the Guns of August, and the most thrilling grass roots politics I've seen in my lifetime.
=========================

RichatUF

I goofed up

OT-
since he signed it...he should have made sure the document was correct.

Sara-

Circumstances vary, but if the "V" is awarded as part of the orders with the medal then it is authorized. However, the "V" device is not authorized for the Silver Star and never has been [to my knowledge]. I think the better hook on the Silver Star however is the various citations for it-with the various citations he would have had orders and cancelled orders for each version, up to the current story.

Other Tom

My point about the V with the Silver Star was simply that including it (erroneously) didn't add anything to it. But I'm prepared to believe that Kerry didn't know that, so he went along with the error.

Other Tom

What the hell, the subject is Kerry, so I can drag some stuff in from left field, right? I mean, you folks here will forgive me, right? Here's one of my favorites, a letter from Kerry to his girlfriend:

"Judy Darling,

There are so many ways this letter could become a bitter diatribe and go rumbling off into irrational nothings.... I feel so bitter and angry and everywhere around me there is nothing but violence and war and gross insensitivity. I am really very frightened to be honest because when the news [of the combat death of his college friend, Dick Pershing] sunk in I had no alternatives but to carry on in the face of trivia that forced me to build a horrible protective screen around myself....

"The world I'm a part of out there is so very different from anything you, I, or our close friends can imagine. It's fitted with primitive survial, with destruction of an endless dying seemingly pointless nature and forces one to grow up in a fast — no holds barred fashion. In the small time I have been gone, does it seem strange to say that I feel as though I have seen several years experience go by.... No matter [where] one is — no matter what job — you do not and cannot forget that you are at war and that the enemy is ever present — that anyone could at some time for the same stupid irrational something that stole Persh be gone tomorrow."

Pretty scary, all that "violence and war and gross insensitivity" all around him. Certainly it called for "primitive survival" at the very least. I mean, the guy was at war, and the enemy was ever present, right?

The letter was written in February, 1968 while Kerry was aboard USS Gridley in Hawaii. He had not yet been within five thousand miles of any fighting.

Does a picture begin to emerge?

hit and run

If Judy "Darling" were a fact-checker at The New Republic....

Sara

What a whiner. Sound familiar? Sort of like Scott Beauchamp writing about the horrors of Iraq before he ever left Germany.

Sara

GMAT H&R. LOL

I hear they're head-hunting for a new fact checker at TNR, BTW.

RichatUF

OtherTom-

My point about the V with the Silver Star was simply that including it (erroneously) didn't add anything to it. But I'm prepared to believe that Kerry didn't know that, so he went along with the error.

True. However there should be 5 different general orders for the award [3 for the award and 2 cancellations for the first 2]. I could see 1 correction, but multiple-doubtful, and the DD-214 notation only draws attention to it.

Ann

Speaking of stinkers, I turned on C-SPAN2 today and John Murhta and David Obey addressed the press on Capitol Hill about the U.S. pulling out of Iraq. The reporting does not give it justice as usual.. It was so disturbing, and illogical you had to see it to believe it.

Does anyone know how to get a transcript or video of C-SPAN2?

It really is a must see.

Ann

Jessica 30%

Ill Lassie 27%

KEEP VOTING!

Ann

Media report:

PMSMBC REPORT

Topsecretk9

If you haven't seen it (via Hot Air news links) Here is a link to a rare Matt Drudge live interview

He mentions how many stories are kept in the sub rosa by the policitical press.

Now think for a second...the left thinks it's bad that the Bush Admin. has asked the press not to print stories that will hurt US security - they eventually print and the left gets all pissed off they kowtowed!!! YET the papers printed it. They telegraph the plans and methods to the enemy. They do that.


The political press wanted to print crap they knew would endanger you and I - they held off, but they printed it


Now listen to what Matt Drudge has to say about the news story Newsweek SPIKED, KILLED, were afraid to print? were PROTECTING the US from? (my ass!)

really gives lie to those criminals at the NYT's printing of the Swift program and the Wiretap, rendition that has happen since the CIA open it's doors and the pubic right to know dilemma they go through, doesn't it?

Topsecretk9

--Now listen to what Matt Drudge has to say about the news story Newsweek SPIKED, KILLED, were afraid to print? were PROTECTING the US from? (my ass!)--

if Newsweek reporters compiled a story that means the "political press" knew for months, more like YEARS and purposely kept it in the "sub rosa" to protect who? What liars and worse.

JM Hanes

TM:

"Troubling - Mr. Pickens is walking the fine line between clarifying and backing out, although another theory says that this is the classic way to lure a mark."

Doesn't trouble me! You can't renig on an agreement till you have one. One guy proposes a deal, the other one says he's game and then when you sit down to negotiate the official terms you up the ante to see just how much you can get for your $. That's always the most interesting -- and revealing -- part.

Pickens has basically got nothing on the line reputation-wise, so why should he care? How good does Kerry look though, when he says he's only willing to address some modified limited little piece of the huge smear that supposedly cost him the presidency, and won't even do that if -- horrors! -- it means actually releasing his own records? He's potentially looking at a kind of personal, not just political, humiliation this time around. When you've got two rich/powerful guys going mano a mano, it's tough to frame one of them as a victim.

Pickens stuck the question about the diaries & the elusive records to Kerry in a way that no one in the media was ever really willing to do. Unless Pickens backs off completely, Kerry is really facing his put up or shut up moment. His apologists can cry foul, but no matter how much two stepping Pickens does, it will still be a lose/lose proposition for Kerry.

PeterUK

Imagie Kerry as an academic,he has ,degrees,a doctorate a tenured professorship and he is forced to defend his grades in High School,brilliant diversion.How do you distract an obsessive? Bring up his obsession.
As for the public thinking the Swifties lied,the proof of the pudding is in the eating,there is no President Kerry.

Pofarmer

After reading another little McKlelan excerpty, I'm starting to see McKlenan=goody two shoes.

The narrative on the Plame thing just vexes me. How can Karl Rove be considered a primary source with "I heard that too." I just don't get it.

But Hillary is on her 13th fundraising scandal, which, coincidentally involves Clair McKaskill, and???? Crickets.

TM

From OT, on the Bronze Star / 3rd Purple Heart:

If some corpsman or staffer, far removed from the events of the day, thought that Kerry's shrapnel wound had been incurred during the mine incident (which is what everyone was talking about during the time he was being treated), the award would have been processed without anyone's giving it a second thought.

Good point, and yet - apparently one of the contemporaneous reports noted that rice was removed from the wound. That may have been radio traffic and not the after-action report, however.

jimmyk

Pickens is in a bit of an awkward position, but he's entitled to set up the rules to establish what constitutes "proof." It seems reasonable to me to demand that Kerry not cherry pick the evidence and produce his records. If Kerry is unwilling to do that, it would cast doubt on his proof, unless he has something that is really definitive--which seems highly unlikely.

centralcal

I see R. Emmett Tyrell at American Spectator has installed a "Crybaby Kerry" clock to start the countdown until said crybaby turns over the items Pickens requested to disprove/prove the ads.

r m flanagan

Does anyone disagree that a hundred years from all that will be worth remembering about Kerry and Vietnam is that he served in combat there and afterwards was a prominent opponent of continuing it ?

Personally I honor his service just as I do that of e.g. GHW Bush , Duke Cunninghan, John McCain and George McGovern.

When I hear any critcism of their service , my first question is whether the critic has served himself. Did Pickens?

I know that many of the Swift Boaters e.g. Thurlow , did serve and I honor them for that and pay careful attention to what they say. (I've just reread the transcript of Thurlow's August 2004 appearance on Hardball and I have no doubt he was telling the truth of what he remembered.)

I pay a lot less attention to those who haven't served in combat like TM and George Bush. Not that they aren't entitled to an opinion. Just that I'm entitled to pay less attention because they haven't paid the price of admission.

OBTW I didn't serve in combat. I volunteered to do so but the army in its wisdom sent me elsewhere. So you're perfectly entitled to devalue my position
as I do those of you who were merely arm chair warriors.

centralcal

I find it odd that this all began when Kerry, out of the blue, claimed to have "dossiers" that would prove the Swift Boat Vets to be liars.

I wonder if he doesn't have some "dirt" on some of the Vets, instead of anything substantive about his Viet Nam service, etc.

Pickens may have pre-empted a Kerry smear campaign of deflecting questions about him, to questions about them.

r m flanagan

Did Boone Pickens ever serve in combat ?

jimmyk

When I hear any critcism of their service , my first question is whether the critic has served himself.

That is a ridiculous argument, even though it seems to get made all the time by those on the left. By extension, I guess only ex-presidents can criticize George Bush? Only current and ex-baseball players can criticize Barry Bonds? There is a term for this type of argument: ad hominem. In serious discussion, an argument should stand or fall on its merits, not on the biography of the person making the argument.

kim

Improper argument to authority. You introduce a claim of moral authority that is superfluous to the truth.
=================================

Other Tom

TM, I'm not sure of the significance of the point you make about the rice. We know that he got rice and shrapnel simultaneously in the grenade-in-the-ricepile incident. No one contends that a purple heart would be appropriate for that wound (including the shrapnel) because it did not occur during an engagement with the enemy. Is the description to which you refer contained in documents relating to the purple heart? If so, it would seem clear that the award was not properly granted. (Many people would argue the same thing about the bruised shoulder, if that were the wound for which the award was given, but at least Kerry would have a defensible, if distasteful case on that one.)

Centralcal, on reflection I believe when he said he had "dossiers" he was referring to compilations of documents for the various disputed incidents, as opposed to dossiers on his critics.

I have no idea whether T. Boone ever served in combat. I don't care much, either. When a guy phonies up his war record, and makes it a principal part of his political campaign (and in fact his entire political career), people who have not served are not disqualified from commenting on his phoniness.

There is now a Boston Globe article (found it on Lucianne.com) saying that a Democrat who is going to oppose Kerry in the Senate primary is going to raise the issue. The article also says that Kerry released his records to some media outlets, and that the records contained nothing to contradict his accounts of what occurred.

Der Hahn

The question is most definitely not 'did Kerry serve in combat?' but has he given an honest account of his actions? Since he made his *account* of his service in Vietnam a major part of his campaign for President *every voter*, wether they served in combat or not, had the right to ask that question.

Jane

The article also says that Kerry released his records to some media outlets, and that the records contained nothing to contradict his accounts of what occurred.

IIRC Kerry released portions of his records to friendly media people - the Boston Globe (owned by the NY Times) I believe but refused to allow them to publish what they found. Instead they reported that nothing was inconsistent with his claims.

Of course no one even commented on the delayed discharge or asked any questions. Nice cover if you can get it.

OT - do you happen to recall the name of whoever says they are running against him?

Rick Ballard

Today is really your last chance to Vote Jmax. She has a decent lead - help make it a landslide.

kim

Yes, Jane, I'm looking for that, too. What a hoot that the Swifties will come up in a Democratic primary campaign. Might get to be fun. Especially in the context of success in Iraq.
========================================

Jane

Go JMax!

Jeanne

Since he made his *account* of his service in Vietnam a major part of his campaign for President *every voter*, wether they served in combat or not, had the right to ask that question.
Agree, Der Hahn. Just as Hillary makes her White House years a claim of "experience" but refuses to release the records

Jim

Kerry's campaign site seems to be archived here:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://johnkerry.com

JM Hanes

r m flanagan:

"Not that they aren't entitled to an opinion. Just that I'm entitled to pay less attention because they haven't paid the price of admission."

Yet the Founders, in their wisdom, opted for a civilian Commander-in-Chief, no military credentials required. Go figure!

PeterUK

"OBTW I didn't serve in combat. I volunteered to do so but the army in its wisdom sent me elsewhere".

It's a man's life in the Latrine Corps.

Other Tom

Jane, the guy's name is Ed O'Reilly, a lawyer from Gloucester. Here's the URL of the article I mentioned:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/11/21/swift_boat_issue_becomes_crucial_to_kerry_anew/?page=full

Abe Lincoln served briefly in a militia unit during the Blackhawk War, but I am pretty sure he never saw combat. FDR never served in uniform and never saw combat. Neither of them was the slightest bit reluctant to fire and replace military commanders on the basis of their performance.

MikeS

When I hear any criticism of their service , my first question is whether the critic has served himself. …I'm entitled to pay less attention because they haven't paid the price of admission: r m Flanagan

I saw no combat, I got out of the Marine Corps in May 1971, just weeks before the SOB John Kerry’s Congressional testimony. It seems to me that he was on TV everyday (for about a year) making offensive statements about every U.S. service man who had served in Vietnam.

During those months there were a lot of parties in my home town for the people who were returning from the war. We would all get drunk and talk about those who weren’t coming home. All the while in the background was that SOB John Kerry slandering the dead and wounded. Worse, the things the SOB John Kerry was saying weren’t true and he knew from his own experience they weren’t true!

The people he slandered, everyday for months and months, had friends, and mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers who had all paid a terrible “price of admission.” So now, for me, it is sweet indeed to see the SOB John Kerry’s service questioned. I feel so grateful to the Swifties and T. Boone that I could just giggle.

SlimGuy

All I can speak for is my own experience in this issue.

Back in the time frame of events of the day, I took an 18 month shore tour assignment to the Swift Boats about 5 months after Kerry did his touch and go resume run through the jungle.

I met and served with a lot of people who had been there and done that while Kerry had his head up his magic hat.

From my personal experience the Swift Boat Veterans have it all over the Kerry camp.

It is amazing that some enterprising reporter has never dug into the alleged matters about Kerry's discharge paper work and the repairs done during the Carter administration.

Sara

Does anyone disagree that a hundred years from all that will be worth remembering about Kerry and Vietnam is that he served in combat there and afterwards was a prominent opponent of continuing it

Yes, I disagree vehemently. It isn't Kerry's service that isn't being honored, it is what he did in 1971 and after that will forever make him a pariah. Do you not understand the damage this man did to an entire generation of veterans? Do you not understand that the man was a traitor to his country when he went to Paris? Do you not understand in what total disdain he is held be a huge segment of the American population who did their duty and served honororably? Obviously you don't get it, and that is too bad, because if you don't get it with Kerry, you will be a sitting duck for being deluded again. Are you a follower of Rosy or Cindy?

Sara

Other Tom

The article also says that Kerry released his records to some media outlets, and that the records contained nothing to contradict his accounts of what occurred.

We've heard that before, but does anyone really think there are reporters working today that could spot the phony parts or missing parts? Shoot, remember they fell for Word documents that were supposed to have been prepared in the sixties. Take the "V" - how many would miss that little detail.

And if his Senate opponent is going to use this against Kerry, then that explains why Kerry is trying to take the offensive with his threat about dossiers.

vnjagvet

I had experiences similar to Mike and SlimGuy, described in full here when this thing was going on in 2004.

Kerry's "reporting for duty" got me heavily involved in the grassroots vet's counterpush opposing his election.

I served my RVN tour in 1967-1968. Two of my professional colleagues were Swift Boat skippers during Kerry's tour. One is a Naval Academy grad who earned a PhD from Berkely after his VN service; the other earned a Wharton School MBA after his.

(Not arguing from "authority", but just letting you know these guys are relatively bright:>)

There was no question in our minds that the Swifties had it basically right, which is why we supported them with time and money.

It had nothing to do with partisan politics. All of us had supported Democratic candidates for President and Senate in the past.

We simply could not approve of Kerry's attempt to have it both ways. He was trying to appeal to us as veterans at the same time he was trying to appeal to the anti-war activists.

It was not filp flop -- it was two-faced.


PeterUK

Worse,the retreat in Vietnam was perceived by the world as a defeat for America,this ushered in a protracted period of brush wars and "liberation movements worldwide.The West was put on the back foot because every tinpot revolutionary knew that 1)Cause enough casualties and the political elite would start to cringe.2)The Western media would always back the revolutionaries,as would academe and student movements.All casualties and setbacks suffered by the West would be reported with ghoulish delight and attention to gory detail.3)Any response could be manipulated for partisan reasons in the political arena.4) Scum like Robert Mugabe would be given free rein to grind his country into the ground,because he belonged to an oppressed minority and was a leftist.5)A "broken window" scenario was created whereby political gangsters grew ever more outrageous,the West lacked the will to bring this under control,or even respond to it.6)Fanatics,like bin Laden saw Vietnam as a blueprint for action.
To coin a phrase,"Those who understand history are bound to try to repeat it".

Rick Ballard

Off Topic but Cheering:

The heartwarming story of Junior's destruction of the big toy the folks gave him continues apace. NYT "A" sailed right through the technical floor of $17.50 to a new 52 week low of $16.75 (followed by a slight recovery above $17).

I'm sure all reading hear would second my "attaboy, Junior" for sticking to his guns. Let's hope no one ever mentions to him that they're aimed at the bottom of the boat.

Keep firing, Junior!!!

AllenS

I went to the link for Kerry's DD-214. I have some observations to make. My DD-214 says my Terminal Date was 19 Jun 72. Kerry's says 17 Feb 72. Almost the same time. When I look at the bottom of my DD-214, it says "previous editions of this form are obsolete effective 1 jan 67". This is what Kerry's says "replaces edition of 1 jul 52, which is obsolete". What gives? Where did he get such an old DD-214?

Sara

rm flanagan:

I want you to imagine what you would have felt like if your 7 year old came home from school and that night told you he could not pray for his Daddy, who at the time was serving his second Vietnam tour. When you ask him why, he tells you that his teacher told him that day that "God does not listen to prayers for baby killers."

Imagine how, as a loving parent and spouse, you would feel at hearing those words.

This is just one of many things that John Kerry is responsible for. You see, that teacher had listened to and believed John Kerry's Winter Soldier testimony before Congress. Testimony, BTW, that we recently learned from a high ranking Soviet defector was a near verbatim statement of a communist propaganda campaign.

I didn't serve, I was the spouse of someone who not only served once, but 4 times in that hellhole combat zone and went on to give 26 years. My son didn't serve, he was only 3 when his Dad served his first tour, 7 when he served his second. Do we not have the right to be angry. I can tell you that the night Kerry stood and saluted and reported for duty, it was such a shock to see him so blatantly give Vietnam vets the finger, I had to run to the bathroom to throw up.

And would you not carry a white hot anger that eventually over 30+ years settled to a buried anger that your spouse would be in uniform, doing nothing but walking to his car after returning from a year long deployment and have some unwashed crazies dump a garbage can of raw sewage on him, in front of his child and wife, while chanting torturer, baby killer, monster?

One did not have to serve to be forever affected by that 1971 testimony.

The night I watched on Fox News our forces cross the border from Kuwait to Iraq, I heard before they'd even gone a few miles that it was a quagmire, another Vietnam. I vowed right then and there, that my mission in what was left of my life, would be to make sure that no other wives or children or service members would ever suffer like we did at the hands of the cowards and anti-war slimebags. The same old hippies are still at it today, even defacing the Wall. That's why you see Vets and their families go and counterprotest every single anti-war protest. We didn't have that in the late sixties and seventies. After Kerry's testimony, a service member could rarely appear in public in uniform. I don't know about the other services, but the Navy relaxed rules and started to allow members to wear civilian clothes to and from the ship, they relaxed haircut rules so that sailors would blend in better with civilians. These are things that many don't remember or never knew. It was an awful time to be in service. I was denied a job because my husband was active duty. The list just goes on and on and on. And John F'n Kerry is the source of this B.S.

Other Tom

A hundred years from now my great-grandchildren are going to know damn well that John Kerry lied about his performance in Vietnam and tried, but failed, to parlay those lies into the presidency.

Don't know what to make of the DD214. Mine is dated Sept. 4, 1973 and is a "DD Form 214N 1 Nov 72." It says "previous editions of this form are obsolete." Make of all this what you can.

Other Tom

Bravo Zulu, Sara.

MikeS

Mine is 214MC (1900) March 12,1971
Previous editions are obsolete.

TM

From OT:

TM, I'm not sure of the significance of the point you make about the rice. We know that he got rice and shrapnel simultaneously in the grenade-in-the-ricepile incident.

I am not sure of the signifcance either, but my point was that Kerry's rice wound was not a secret at the time. That doesn't mean the details of the circumstances on his Purple Heart application were correct, of course.

Sara

Thanks OT. I know regulars here are sick of hearing my story over and over, but it is the only story I have and it was our life. We were young, the military or at least the Navy, did not take kindly to anyone speaking out. We did not have liaisons to families like they have today. Each of us was more or less on our own. Even our service member spouses weren't as aware of what was going on stateside, because they were busy risking their lives a world away and didn't see it day to day.

When I hear that those who weren't in VN have no right to speak, it makes my stomach roil. The men we loved and were proud of were trashed constantly, we were caught up in it because we were married to someone active duty. We are a generation who grew up with ticker tape parades and lots of patriotic fanfare for our fathers, uncles and friends who fought in WWII. One of my earliest memories was seeing the returning ships of Korean vets and all the celebrations welcoming them home. It was not only a personal shock, there was culture shock. And we were helpless to speak out or stand up for our loved ones.

There was no Internet where we could go and find others suffering in like manner and form groups to support each other. It is hard to remember those days where you might go 3 months without mail and then get 10 letters all at once. I'm sure anyone who served remembers how we all put numbers on the envelops so our loved ones could read our letters in order when they'd get a batch delivery. There were no computers, no cell phones, no video feeds where a soldier, sailor or marine could watch his child being born.

And the services, themselves, were not inclined to be sympathetic. The standard answer was always, "you knew he was in the Navy when you married him, so stop complaining."

When Zumwalt came in, there was a time where we felt that someone in authority understood, but it was really too late by then, the damage was done.

Jane

Thanks for the link OT. Assuming no republican challenger I will be hard pressed to vote for someone who says his primary issue is someone voting for the Iraq war.

WE are a spineless state.

AllenS

Other Tom and TM. You're making my point. It seems that the DD 214 is changed quite often. Again, how come Kerry's is such an old form.

Sara

This off topic, but have you all seen this Global Incident Map? If not, you should.

BOATBUILDER

rm flanagan--I didn't serve, so you can ignore me if you want. I'm 48--the call to serve never really came--I was 15 in '75, my family is not particularly military (my dad served stateside at the end of the Korean war and several uncles served in WWII) and there wasn't a whole lot of action for the next decade or so--I guess this disqualifies an awful lot of us.
As a non-veteran with no real idea of what combat (or the choices facing young men in the late 60's) were really like, I am not really in position to judge Kerry's actions during his service. It does seem curious, however, that he sought and obtained his medals, and procured a discharge as a result, after only a few months, on the basis of what are, on the face of it, not particularly serious or life-threatening wounds. Maybe you or I would have done the same thing, to get away from the war. But if I did, I wouldn't be proud of it. I wouldn't portray myself as "a war hero," knowing that others who served with me were still doing the fighting. I don't think there's any debate about this, whether one accepts Kerry's account or the SwiftVets'. That alone raises real questions about the man's character--to say nothing of his subsequent actions.
I respect the service of every member of our military. That doesn't mean that the service of some is not more worthy of respect than the service of others. It also doesn't mean that one's service confirms infallibility, or that one can serve and also be a coward, a liar, or--as Kerry has asserted--a rapist or a murderer. I'm just less inclined to believe the account of the guy who left than that of the guys who stayed.

Sara

You mean Boatbuider that you would be more inclined to take the word of this man over John Kerry, whose picture hangs as a hero in a VN museum for the Viet Cong?:

Col. Day holds every significant combat award and is the nation's most highly decorated officer, as well as the most decorated since General Douglass MacArthur. He holds nearly seventy military decorations and awards, of which more than fifty are for combat. Most notable are: the Medal of Honor, the Air Force Cross, the Distinguished Service Medal, the Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Air Medal with nine Oak Leaf Clusters, the Bronze Star for Valor with two Oak Leaf Cluster, the Bronze Star, and the Purple Heart with three Clusters. Col. Day was presented Vietnam's highest medal by President Thieu, two Vietnamese Gallantry Crosses, and Vietnamese Wings, and wears twelve Campaign Battle Stars.

He is a member of the Medal of Honor Society, Legion of Valor, was the first President of NAM-POW's (the Vietnam POW organization), President of the MISTY SUPER-FAC Association, and a member of numerous military and fraternal organizations. Colonel Day was a member of the Code of Conduct Review Board, established by the Department of Defense in 1976 to review POW conduct.

Col. Day has taught World Politics, International Law and Political Geography at St. Louis University and Parks College of Aeronautical Technology. He taught Constitutional Law, Politics of the Middle East, and Communism in Eastern Europe at Troy State University.

Col. Day is a member of the Okaloosa/Walton Bar Association, Academy of Florida Trial Lawyers, American Bar Association, and American Trial Lawyers. He is a visiting lecturer at the Freedom's Foundation program at Valley Forge for both St. Francis College and the University of Scranton, and lectures young officers at the Air University at Maxwell AFB, AL several times each year.

Who wrote (and also appeared in one of the Swift Boat ads):

Letter from Col. George E. "Bud" Day regarding John Kerry Col. George E. "Bud" Day | October 4, 2004 | Col. George E. "Bud" Day

Posted on 10/04/2004 6:45:49 PM PDT by GeekDejure

Dear Joe:

The major issue in the Swiftboat stories is, and always has been, what John Kerry did in 1971 after he returned from Vietnam. Kerry cast a long dark shadow over all Vietnam Veterans with his outright perjury before the Senate concerning atrocities in Vietnam. His stories to the Senate committee were absolute lies..fabrications..perjury..fantasies, with NO substance. That dark shadow has defamed the entire Vietnam War veteran population, and gave "Aid and Comfort" to our enemies..the Vietnamese Communists. Kerry's stories were outright fabrications, and were intended for political gain with the radical left..McGovern, Teddy and Bobby Kennedy followers, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and the radical left who fantasized that George McGovern was going to be elected in 1972. Little wonder that returning soldiers from Vietnam were spit upon and castigated as "baby killers".

A returned war hero said so. Kerry cut a dashing figure as a war hero, lots of medals, and returned home because of multiple war wounds..even a silver star. His Senate testimony confirmed what every hippie had been chanting on the streets.."Hey hey LBJ..How many kids did you kill today"????? He obviously was running for political office in 1971.

Until Lt. John O' Neil, himself a Swifboat commander, spoke out before the 1972 elections against Kerry's outright deceptions, there was no one from the Swiftboat scene that could contradict Kerry's self serving lies.

I was a POW of the Vietnamese in Hanoi in 1971, and I am aware that the testimony of John Kerry, the actions of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, and the radical left; all caused the commies to conclude that if they hung on, they would win North Vietnamese General Bui Tin commented that every day the Communist leadership listened to world news over the radio to follow the growth of the anti-war movement. Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark gave them confidence to hold in the face of battlefield reverses. The guts of it was that propaganda from the anti-war group was part of their combat strategy.

While the Commies were hanging on, innumerable U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Air Force members were being killed in combat. Every battle wound to Americans after Kerry's misdirected testimony is related to Kerry's untruthfulness. John Kerry contributed to every one of these deaths with his lies about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam. He likewise defamed the U.S. with our allies and supporters. His conduct also extended the imprisonment of the Vietnam Prisoners of War, of which I was one. I am certain of at least one POW death after his testimony, which might have been prevented with an earlier release of the POWs.

My friend and room mate Senator John S. McCain denounced the Swiftboat video by John O'Neil. I have a different take on the Swiftboat tape and disagree with my good friend John.

John Kerry opened up his character as a war hero reporting for duty to the country with a hand salute...and his band of brothers..of which he was the chief hero. Most of his convention speech was about John Kerry..Vietnam hero, and his band of brothers. John Kerry's character is not only fair game, it is the primary issue. He wants to use Bill Clinton's "is", as an answer to his lack of character.

The issue is trust. Can anyone trust John Kerry?? "Never lie, cheat or steal" is the West Point motto. When a witness perjures himself at trial, the judge notes that his testimony lacks credibility. Should we elect a known proven liar to lead us in wartime??

I draw a direct comparison of General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War, to Lieutenant John Kerry. Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese with his assistance to the anti-war movement, and his direct liaison with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris. His reward. Political gain. Senator..United States. His record as a Senator for twenty years has been pitiful. Conjure up, if you will, one major bill that he has sponsored.

John Kerry for President? Ridiculous. Unthinkable. Unbelievable. Outrageous.

Col. Geo. "Bud" Day, Medal of Honor, Vietnam POW 1967- 1973, USMC- USA- USAF- Attorney 1949-2004


Larry

You who read this will probably call me crazy, warmonger, baby killer or worse, but my in-country tour May 1, 1968 to May 31, 1969 as an F-4C aircraft commander was the best duty I had in 26 years of service. Don't know if I can explain why. Mainly, as those of you who've served know, you spend days, months, weeks and years training. Then you train some more. When you go to war, training takes a way back seat and you DO what you spent all that time training for. I can't imagine any warrior trying to shorten their tour with minor injuries. Ask anyone who's been there and most will say it just isn't right to go home and leave the job to your buddies. There's a cameraderie that is very difficult to explain to anyone who hasn't been there. Also, in the flying trade, a purple heart is high odds of being your last award or decoration. Whistling past the graveyard humor: What are a fighter pilot's last words before he makes that smoking hole in the ground? "Oh shit!" If I hadn't had a wife and 2 small kids, I'd have volunteeered to go back again and again. My young wife didn't want me to volunteer for the first tour, but she understood why I did and acceded to it. As it turned out, I was in theater more than another year with TDYs up to 90 days. All of this is not to say that I didn't have many moments of stark terror, but that's part of the deal, too.

PaulL

When McCain denounced the Swift Boat ads, I swore I would never vote for him no matter what.

Essentially what McCain did was give aid and comfort to John Kerry, and call liars the hundreds of people who stood up to the real liar.

I'm damned tired of McCain getting treated like a god when it comes to military matters. He is also claiming that his support of more troops in Iraq has proved right. Baloney. It's not the numbers of troops, it's what they do that counts. There could have been a million Americans in Iraq and it wouldn't have mattered if they hadn't practiced Petraeus's anti-insurgent techniques.

Also, the Sunnis, I think, had to get a real taste of life under al Qaeda before they realized what a living hell it would be. So even if Petraeus's recommendations had been followed a year earlier, the Sunnis weren't ready to turn yet, so we wouldn't have the incredible success we now have.

pagar

Thank you Sara, for all your illustrations and postings of a difficult time for those who stayed behind.
The thing that gives me hope is that Benedict Arnold is still remembered as a traitor. Since IMO John Kerry did worse, I believe and hope history will not be kind to him.

Sara

Pagar, the other side is constantly trying to redirect the conversation to those 3 mo. Kerry actually spent in Vietnam, when in reality it was his 1971 testimony and actions that are the real problem with him. So many that defend him were either unborn then or very small children. If we don't speak, who will? I certainly don't equate our experience in those years with those of Holocaust survivors, but in the area of history and legacy, the idea is the same. If those who lived it fail to speak, we will be doomed to forget and repeat.

There are many things in life that cause pain and suffering that I have little control over. This is one place where I feel my single voice adds to the chorus of thousands of others and can make a difference. That is why I'm so thankful on this holiday of thanks for the Swift Boat Vets for Truth and all the honorable veterans of Vietnam and to all those brave men and women who have served and are now serving in Iraq and Afghanistan and all other hot spots of the world.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

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Wilson/Plame