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December 04, 2007

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centralcal

How I wish we could do away with the "come out of the shadows" nonsense.

Where I live in California none of the illegals from South of the border (I don't know this for other countries) are or have ever been in the shadows. They are out in plain view everywhere.

All ICE would ever have to do is put an agent beside the checkers at WalMart and that would reduce the illegal population by two-thirds.

centralcal

Oh yeah, they could round up all of the rest at any hospital emergency room.

GMax

You are going to go to the back of the line, which is a multiyear wait BTW. Not allowed to work in the meantime? Does he think these folks are all John Edwards? How in the world is this anything approaching reality based?

Walter
I think that, if they’re illegal, then they should not be able to work in this country.

Tom,

If you have a visa, you are not illegal.

And you can go to the back of the line for citizenship, yet jump ahead for work visas.

I snark, but if this is what it takes to keep wages down for low-skilled service industries, I suppose I support it. I continue to maintain that the people who make it here are the more dedicated and capable members of their societies; and a benefit to ours.

clarice

Not quite right, Walter. Some temporary visas allow you to work; others--student's , tourists--do not. It takes a lot of work and money to get a temporary visa which permits you to work--generally they are for professionals in areas of demonstrated short supply, artistic (dancers, actors, etc) here for a special performance, and farm workers or resort /camp workers.

MU

California asked for the FBI to investigate. They won't because it's corrupt politicians getting pay offs. These need to go to jail. ICE should do their job. Employers should have there money checked. They should be closed. Illegals are taken advantage of and need to be compensated by the US.

bgates

Walter - so overcrowded hospitals, schools, and prisons are worth it, so long as we can keep people in low-wage jobs from getting ahead?

MayBee

I continue to maintain that the people who make it here are the more dedicated and capable members of their societies; and a benefit to ours.

I had a friend from the Philippines that couldn't get even a tourist visa because so many people from poorer countries that come on tourist visas stay on and become illegal workers here.
To apply to come as a tourist, she had to document her education and work experience, but most importantly her family and investments that are in the Philippines, as a way to ensure that she would go back.
Even as a college educated land owner, she could not get a visa into the US. I think the US missed out. She would never EVER have overstayed.
I don't agree at all that those that make it here are the most dedicated and capable. I would say they are the closest in proximity and the most willing to break laws. Because of them, a lot of wonderful people can't so much as step foot on our soil.

centralcal

Maybee, you are absolutely right, both about deserving foreigners not being allowed visas and also about many illegals' proximity.

I have Irish friends who are unable to get anything more than tourist visas.

edward cropper

The bottom line is these two bit phony political scabs do not have a clue what they are talking about. They do not come in contact with illegal's like many of us do every day. They do not see them coming and going as free as a bird not the least bit concerned about law enforcement.
Driving cars without drivers license and no insurance. Working every day for various employers for less than minimum wage who may be paying taxes or maybe not.
The democrats want them here because they see a golden opportunity of embracing them into the democrat party, destroying the republican party and creating a one party system.

Walter

Not quite right, Walter.

Well, if you have a visa, you are not illegal. I agree it is entirely too difficult for good people to get work visas in the US.

'Chain' migration policies don't help. Instead of getting the most productive, motivated immigrants, we end up with so-and-so's grandmother or uncle taking the 'legal' spots. I'm also very unhappy that the US has not historically made claims against sponsors on their pledge of support.

Because of them, a lot of wonderful people can't so much as step foot on our soil.

I agree that it is unfair to use the presence of people working illegally to restrict others' ability to come here to work or visit legally.

... overcrowded hospitals, schools, and prisons are worth it, so long as we can keep people in low-wage jobs from getting ahead?

Well, not the hospitals. But Prop 187 was really flawed insofar as it attempted to exclude illegals from public education. After all, are we really better off if they never learn English and have nothing productive to do with their days?

The prisons? If you send them home, they just come back again. Would you rather have them running loose?

My friends in public health tell me that it's quite a bit more costly for immigrants to receive health care only when the problem has gotten very severe. I suppose it would be still cheaper to send them back to their home countries, though.

... they are the closest in proximity and the most willing to break laws.

According to the ("pro-immigrant, low-immigration" advocates) Center for Immigration Studies, fewer than a third of all illegal immigrants come from Mexico. Unless Canada is sending a huge number, I'm not certain the numbers support this assertion. But it could explain hockey teams south of the Mason-Dixon line.

... keep people in low-wage jobs from getting ahead.

If you pay them more to stay in dead-end jobs, what's their motivation to 'get ahead'?

GMax

But it could explain hockey teams south of the Mason-Dixon line.


You know why they never call Canucks wetbacks? Well Lake Superior freezes over much off the year for one, makes it mighty hard to get wet on the journey!

Reminds me of an old joke about Michigan Tech Univ way up in the Keewenaw Penisula of the UP. Seems two guys at a bar were having a discussion which turned to places to get an education. The first guy suggests Tech. " No way" says the 2nd guy, "only hockey players and whores go there." First guy bristles and spits back " I'll have you know that my wife went to Tech." @nd guy never looks up but asks " Really? So what position did she play?"

Ta dum dum

PaulL

Illegals do not work for less than the minimum wage (unless they are crazy).

Employers hire illegals because they don't need to pay them benefits and they don't need to handle all the government paperwork involved with official employees. That saves employers a bundle.

And I've also heard it said that your average illegal has a better work ethic than the average American.

Walter

Heh!

Driving cars without drivers license and no insurance.

The three times we've had cars hit by people with no insurance, the drivers were US citizens whose ancestors most likely came over before the 'civil' war--though I had trouble getting addresses, let alone family trees.

Working every day for various employers for less than minimum wage ...

I remember fondly the days (back when people wanted to raise the durn thing) when good Republicans viewed the minimum wage as an artificial constraint which forced small business to cut employment.

... who may be paying taxes or maybe not.

Go after the employers. With my blessing. I may not agree with the tax laws, but they should be enforced on everyone equally.

It may be unrelated, but the biggest problem the IRS faces with low-income taxpayers without W-2s is that they overreport their income. Seems that up to a certain point they get more money back if they report more than they actually earned.

The democrats want them here because they see a golden opportunity of embracing them into the democrat party, destroying the republican party and creating a one party system.

The Republicans had a lock on the black vote in the South for a good century after taking (minimal) steps to support them. Like Karl, I don't think we have to write off people who are willing to put up with a lot of hassle to be part of the American Dream.

clarice

Around here most of the immigrants (legal and illegal) are from Central America, Peru and Asia(largely Viet Nam). They are generally very hard working, and they actually show up. Most are literate in two languages. They beat the opposition. They are not working for less.

MayBee


Well, if you have a visa, you are not illegal. I agree it is entirely too difficult for good people to get work visas in the US.

If you overstay a visa, you are breaking a law. It is difficult to get a work visa, but I was talking about a TOURIST visa. She couldn't even get a tourist visa.

I agree that it is unfair to use the presence of people working illegally to restrict others' ability to come here to work or visit legally.

I don't think it's unfair. I think it's the way it is. I think it's sad. But it also makes me disagree with you that the more dedicated and capable members get here. A considerable percentage of our illegal immigrants are visa-overstayers. They are breaking the law to say here, so it's really hard to justify giving more people visas.
(it also makes me appreciate Rudy Guiliani when he discusses checking people leaving the country. I don't understand how we think our borders can keep this from happening if we don't even check who leaves on time and who doesn't. Other countries do it)

According to the ("pro-immigrant, low-immigration" advocates) Center for Immigration Studies, fewer than a third of all illegal immigrants come from Mexico.

From your link:
Of the top 10 countries of origin of illegal immigrants, in 2000
1. Mexico.......4,808,000
2. ElSalvador.... 189,000
3. Guatemala..... 144,000

Share of Illegal border crossers
Mexico 41.2 %
El Salvadore 5.9%
Peru 4.6%
Guatemala 4.4%
Ecuador 4.4%
Total 60.5%

Mexico obviously has the highest number of illegal immigrants here, and other countries with proximity also have high numbers.
For other countries (China, Philippines, etc), it is primarily people illegally overstaying their visas.
People who break laws, and people with good proximity. Not necessarily the best or most deserving.

MayBee

Which, and I want to clarify-- although I am disagreeing with Walter about his assertion that the most deserving and best (or whatever) get here, I do know that many people that are here illegally are really wonderful and hard working.

But I think there are many wonderful, hardworking people in this world that would and do line up for years to get to the US. How I feel about them personally, and how I treat people personally, is different than the way I believe a State should do it.

MayBee

Do Canadians even export their hockey players anymore? I thought everyone was Russian these days.

centralcal

Golly, I was really nonplussed about Clarice's comments on the illegal immigrants she encounters in her neck of the woods.

Thank you MayBee for showing the statistics -- which are much more indicative of what we in the Western states are dealing with. Primarily Mexican illegal immigrants. Which is not to say there are not other countries represented here too -- just that they are not in huge enough numbers to warrant immediate concern.

centralcal

oh -- and before the "bigot" label starts to be bandied toward me -- I am a mother of 4 children, grandmother of 10. Our combined ethnicities are: Irish, Italian, Portugese, German, Mexican and "mutt."

bgates

If you send them home, they just come back again.
Might as well erase the border entirely then. If our present draconian border enforcement doesn't work, nothing ever will.
Are we really better off if they never learn English and have nothing productive to do with their days?
We're better off getting taxpayers' kids ready for college rather than getting kids who aren't in the country legally up to a 3rd grade reading level. If the latter have 'nothing productive to do with their days', they can go home.
If you pay them more to stay in dead-end jobs, what's their motivation to 'get ahead'?
I've had jobs that paid more than 5 bucks an hour, yet I've still wanted to get ahead. Have you?

clarice

The situation in D.C. is not very typical. Most of the illegals here are people who came here legally and ran into some snafu--for example, they'd have been eligible for amnesty but went home for a short period during their stay because of a family emergency and will eventually get legal status under the law (i.e. Child married an American and became a citizen or dispensation or somethng else). Sometimes we get diplomats who are stuck here when bad stuff happens at home. For years, our favorite neighborhood place was an Afghan restaurant run by a diplomat who was allowed to stay when the Russians took over Afghanistan. We have more ethnic grocery stores and restaurants than you might expect. Nearby suburbs--like Kensington,Md--are immigrant magnets because they are on a subway line into town and housing is less expensive--in the course of a few blocks there you'll find central American , Vietnamese, Korean, Thai restaurants and shops.Further out a bit in Virginia are giant Asian-targeted malls of clothing and sweet shops, restaurants and grocery stores.You step out of the car in the parking lot, walk to the mall and you'd swear you were in Hong Kong or Bangkok or Seoul.

MESW

Canada only exports voices, seeing things not dreams, diseases, accidents, shootings etc. Canada has lines for immigrants. They become Canadian just fine. Health care is free. Soon, so is the US's.

Dems work for Canadians.

RichatUF

Walter-

Don't want to start a flame war but this: "After all, are we really better off if they never learn English and have nothing productive to do with their days?"

With whole language and bilingual education the primary vehicals of language instruction children of illegal aliens don't get much in the way of English language education in the first place. Fix Mexico and eliminate agricultural subsidies-immigration issue solved.

clarice

OT:But interesting:
"House Republicans have been fighting and winning the few little battles they can, considering they are in the minority in a body where the minority has few rights. But tonight they won big on a motion to recommit the Intelligence Authorization Act to committee, with instructions to remove all earmarks from the bill.

This is one of many such little wins the House GOP has enjoyed, peeling off moderate and marginal-seat Democrats as they do so. The committee is not obligated to follow the instructions, but they can only ignore them if Democratic leaders are willing to ram the earmarks through, over a clear majority vote of the House.

It may just be a symbolic vote, but it demonstrates just how powerful the Democrats think the earmark issue is — 62 Democrats voted with a unanimous Republican caucus, including many of the most vulnerable: Boyda (Kan.), McNerney (Calif.), Lampson (Tex.) and Chris Murphy (Conn.), to name a few.

If Republicans have any chance of winning back the majority next year, the earmark issue holds forth more hope for them than any other issue right now. It resonates with taxpayers when you tell them they will be funding hippie museums and fake jobs programs for corrupt, power-hungry members of Congress. "

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjU1M2QxM2Q5YWI3YzBmOTRjOGYzYzU5MmEzNmRiMmY=>earmarks scaring Dems

Walter

Maybee,

I was agreeing with Clarice, not you, about the difficulty of getting work visas. I do not have strong feelings about tourist visas, except that I do think that your friend's experience was not only sad but also unfair. Well, that and I like to travel. It's easier for me to get a visa from another country if the US treats their citizens fairly.

I had a Pilipino co-worker whose family owned a large country estate and an urban mansion. For some reason she came to the US to work as a clerk. (Oddly enough, she spent a lot of time complaining about the difficulty of getting good domestic help there. I had little sympathy, as my two-bedroom apartment didn't require a large staff to maintain.)

Your numbers show that Mexicans and Central Americans amount to less than 2/3 of those who cross the (presumably Mexican) border. Again, fewer than a third overall come from the nearest country. My understanding is that it is quite difficult for Central Americans to cross the Mexican border from the South, even if they merely intend to transit. Not that it matters to my argument, but I suspect that we'd see slightly different numbers from a 'pro-immigrant high-immigration' organization.

I accept as a tautology that if a person enters without a visa or does not comply with the terms of their visa, they are breaking the law. If that is their sole illegal act, it ranks somewhere below most felonies as a threat to our society. The distinction between malum prohibitum (a thing wrong because it is prohibited) and malum per se (an thing wrong in itself) comes to mind.

If we screened and let in the good people, it would be a lot easier to spot the real malefactors.

It takes effort and expense to leave your country and come to a foreign land with different customs and language. Those who do so in order to work contribute far more than those born in the US lacking the drive or desire to better themselves. Perhaps it is easier to see away from the border, but the difference between the two is striking.

Walter

... bilingual education ...

Though the education establishment is fighting tooth-and-nail to keep it, the practice is illegal for public schools in California. With any luck, other states will voluntarily switch after seeing the better results from the immersion approach. Even if luck is lacking, other states can use the ballot box as well.

I'm not sure that whole language reading instruction hurts immigrants more than the native-born. I'm open to evidence either way.

Walter

Irish, Italian, Portugese, German, Mexican and "mutt."

Can we call the "mutt" American?

Walter

If you send them home, they just come back again.


Might as well erase the border entirely then.

Yeah that was weak. I've got nothing for overcrowded prisons. Wait! How about: Refusing entry to everyone because some will commit crimes is over-inclusive. If we allow in those who pass a threat screening, we can more carefully target truly draconian border enforcement rules.

Or I could dodge the issue by bringing up the old drug-war thread. But that would be a mistake.

We're better off getting taxpayers' kids ready for college rather than getting kids who aren't in the country legally up to a 3rd grade reading level.
This is where I look for the double-edged sword of Mr. Ballard. With our demographic patterns, I am more likely to have a pleasant old age if we have more and better-educated workers.
I've had jobs that paid more than 5 bucks an hour, yet I've still wanted to get ahead. Have you?
Had a job that paid more than 5 bucks an hour?

I've been a lot more motivated to leave jobs that paid less. And I've been less motivated to leave unfullfilling jobs that paid well. Maybe I'm an outlier.

clarice

As for the education of immigrants--mostly legal here to my knowledge--When I go to the nearest Korean grovery store the lot is filled with hondas and toyotas all with Ivy League stickers on the rear.(The mamas get out and buy the city's best values in produce etc .They can feed a family of four well on far less than $100 a week.Helps cover tuition at Yale and Princeton.)
Shopping at sthnic grocery stores is one of my fav things. Go on a day when people aren't too busy, pick up some odd looking veggie or condiment, ask a passerby what it is and how they cook it and in 15 minutes everyone will be giving you their family recipes.

Ann

"If Republicans have any chance of winning back the majority next year, the earmark issue holds forth more hope for them than any other issue right now." NRO

Speaking of winning on the earmark issue, our troops might win on it, too.

Congress vs. Gates [David Freddoso] NRO

Democrats love to complain about the Iraq War because it's good politics. They were not willing to use their Congressional powers to force withdrawal when it was going badly. They have another chance now that it's going better, but the best they've proposed is to nibble around the edges with an extremely modest Dec. 2008 start-of-withdrawal date — a date that everyone believes is going to be met anyway.

There's no reason to think they'll grow a spine and take Defense Secretary Robert Gates to the mat. Rather than accept the Democrats' withdrawal demand in exchange for war funding, Gates has threatened to freeze non-essential contracts and lay off thousands of Department of Defense civilian employees to keep funds going to the troops in the field. The first layoff notices would go out in two weeks.

If he's smart about his negotiating position, Gates might even start cannibalizing their defense industry pork — that's a language that Congress understands.

Topsecretk9

Alcee Hasttings abruptly resigns from the intelligence committee.

Hoyner and Pelosi didn't know.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315104,00.html

bgates

Though the education establishment is fighting tooth-and-nail to keep it, the practice is illegal for public schools in California.
Yes, but if that is their sole illegal act, it ranks somewhere below most felonies as a threat to our society. Besides, you can send the teachers home with orders to change curriculum, but they just come back again and do the same thing.

I am more likely to have a pleasant old age if we have more and better-educated workers.
We can have more, or better-educated workers. Pick one.

I'm still not clear why keeping wages low is a good in itself, let alone one that is worth increased public costs to schools, hospitals, law enforcement, and tax fraud.

MayBee

It takes effort and expense to leave your country and come to a foreign land with different customs and language. Those who do so in order to work contribute far more than those born in the US lacking the drive or desire to better themselves. Perhaps it is easier to see away from the border, but the difference between the two is striking.

I don't know what you mean by it being easier to see away from the border. Do you think because I've lived in LA for 3 months that I am blind to how things are? As for what it takes to go to a foreign land, that is something I have first hand experience with. Don't talk down to me, Walter.
While I agree that a great many people that have emigrated to the States contribute a great deal, it is a romantic notion to image "those who do so"-- all of them--contribute more.
Of course, it is absolutely true that many born in the US have terrible work ethics, and that is why there is abundant opportunity for those willing to come here and work. Many illegal immigrants here work, very hard and very honestly. I admire them on a personal level, and I understand their choices.

Topsecretk9

==Posted by: clarice | December 05, 2007 at 12:14 AM==

Clarice,

No doubt. I prefer the ethnic grocery to the hippified snot filled co-op store or farmers market any old day of the week.

I lived for years, 2 blocks from a food co-op. It was OK but super exspensive, so I could never understand how their low-income or even homeless they professed to love and care for could ever dream to shop there.

Also I realized a nose ring and blue hair automatically exempted one from even polite service, let alone seemed to green light for rude and shotty service.

MayBee

***imagINE***

MayBee

Do you have blue hair and a nose ring, topper?

Walter

Sorry, MayBee, I didn't mean to give you the impression that I don't respect your opinion. If anything, I recognize that you have a better base of cross-cultural experience. Honestly, I didn't know that you live in LA now.

The STL metropolitan area faces many challenges now. Few of them are caused by illegal (or legal) immigration; many (refurbishing of deteriorating neighborhoods, for example) are ameliorated by it; and almost none get press on the coastal or border states.

In the Bay Area, few of Oakland's problems are caused by immigration (legal or otherwise) and many immigrants I worked, played, lived near, and studied with in SF made the place a better place to live. But no one ethnic group predominated in that city. Heck, I even knew a couple Irish illegals.

I hear very different stories from my friends who live in the Southland. I am not trying to make light of anyone's experience, but merely trying to give a different perspective.

With that, I am going to declare defeat and go to bed. Thanks for indulging my rants.

Topsecretk9

-Do you have blue hair and a nose ring, topper?-

Sometimes. Maybe. There are about 2 times outta ten, a pair of black low top chucks aren't on my feet, tattooed discreetly and goofball all around. My son weeps. But I am sweet and super polite. AND I smile at people before they do me, I like elderly people more than the hip snots.

MayBee

You know I adore you, tops. I just have the hardest time picturing you. I always knew you would be the first to smile at a stranger, though.

Topsecretk9

Here I am Maybee.

Topsecretk9

Oh...Maybee that link was too tiny for me even...I'll re-do tomorrow - It's me holding up a ratty piece of towel in this scummy ass thrift bin place. The funny part is we found _NO NEEDLES - but the same shaped piece missing from our shabby chic towel...they didn't match.

Jabba the Tutt

First, props to NPR for asking the question and following up for specifics. It's rare that this happens to Democrats. The MSM doesn't do Dem candidates any favors by coddling them, because at some point, they are going to be asked.

Second, the incoherence of Obama and Edwards is just so funny. This is what the Democrat Party gets for rewarding clintonesque pandering going on two decades. Jerry Brown attacked Bill Clinton as a 'pander bear'. Incoherence makes for lousy policies and loss of elections.

Rick Ballard

"We're better off getting taxpayers' kids ready for college rather than getting kids who aren't in the country legally up to a 3rd grade reading level."

Why do you want to accelerate the devaluation of a college degree? The colleges are doing a dman fine job as it is. Amazingly, only 20-25% of the 800 occupations covered by the OES database could possibly be said to require a degree and the mismatch between the types of degrees required and the types of degrees granted by our fine educrats is enough to make one weep.

If young Festus and Marigold were fifth graders, they would be extremely fortunate if they were in a class that required them to perform at a 1920 third grade level rather than one in which their precious pointed heads were constantly patted for the wonderful job that they're doing at breathing.

The wage situation among the hewers and drawers will improve rather dramatically over the next ten years without much being done at all. There's a demographic rut in the road that's about fifteen years long that will require some substantial wage increases to fill.

Nobody is going to be any "richer" for it though, unless they've changed the rules on inflation.

centralcal

TsK9: Okay, I really have stop having cocktails when I come here after dinner! All this time I thought you were a guy! Tiny picture or not, that looks like an attractive female.

jeesh! the assumptions one makes based on log-in names!

Bill in AZ

heh heh - no problem, centralcal. TSK9 fooled sooper seekrit agent Scary Larry Johnson too...

centralcal

Well, during the day my beverages are coffee, water, maybe a Dr. Pepper now and again. So, for Bill in AZ, Walter, Rick, Other Tom, et al; I am making no further assumptions. ha ha.

Bill in AZ

oh, wait - centralcal, I didn't mean any insult comparing you to that nitwit Scary Larry. Just that he employed his vast resources (er... he "knows people", scary people I think) and was hilariously wrong.

centralcal

No fear, Bill - I picked up on the snark right away! Comforting isn't it - about our "intelligence" people, I mean? Hey, I guess that would make me imminently qualified!

Neo

I suggest a ban of allowing those, who enter the country illegally, from voting for 10 years after they come forward.

This should take the political incentive out of immigration reform, real fast.

MW

Hastings is term limits. Five years. Leave before it's up and they hire again, another five years. Five years, IIPA. Five year counter intelligence ban. Term limits in congress. Dems don't want term limits.

TSK9 send Larry to Africa? His friends are all in security. Foreign. They meet in Vegas and they do favors for him and Plame. Foreign security. Favors?

Intelligence earmarks go through NGOs.

bgates

Rick, if you can get 'I want to devalue a college degree' from 'I want to prepare kids for college', the colleges have been devalued far below my poor power to add or detract.

If young Festus and Marigold were fifth graders
I'll admit I had not considered the possibility that young Festus and Marigold were that age.

Rick Ballard

Placing a focus on college prep is an acceptance of the educrats position that all kids are to be herded in that direction. The eventual outcome will be devaluation of college degrees as surely as the acceptance of "no fault" divorce has resulted in a lower median household income.

Immigrant kids aren't nearly as dangerous as ignorant educrats.

BTW - you mentioned something the other concerning holding off on the purchase of your own slice of paradise based upon the danger explicit in teaser rate mortgages. It appears that the rescue is imminent. If you can find a decent REO broker, now is the time to pick something up at '04 prices. They don't usually ring the bell this loudly at a market turn.

bgates

Rick, I think we're arguing past each other. See how this strikes you:
-while not all kids should go to college, some should;
-some of those that are smart enough to thrive in college are in terrible schools;
-those schools are the most likely to have a high illegal immigrant population;
-to the extent such a school has to divide its limited resources between smart uneducated American kids and smart, even less educated illegal immigrant kids, the American kids are worse off

-if you like, substitute 'vocational tech' for 'college'. Either way, there are American kids ill-served by the education establishment who will be worse-served if their schools focus on people who shouldn't be in the country. Your suspicion of educrats is well-founded; that being the case, you should look into how ecstatic such people are about the enormous illegal immigrant population in the classroom.

Thanks for the RE tip, but I think it's still early. Between Mr "when somebody hurts, government has got to move" on one side and the opportunism of Democratic presidential candidates on the other, I think we're going to go even further towards 'no-fault mortgages'. Economic fundamentals and the compassion of our leaders can do quite a bit more damage to the housing market.

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