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January 24, 2008

Comments

clarice

It's an inteesting theory, but somehow this speech reminds me of an essay exam written by a quick crammer who hasn't truly grasped the mmaterial because at the last debate Obama was challenged on this by Hill and backstroked so much the point he made earlier was obviated.

serber

do you think bill knows the soulja boy dance?

Ralph L

Obama danced around the real reasons Reagan made a difference. Does he not know, or are they too antithetical to Democratic orthodoxy and his own platform to name? Echoing Clarice, he may have spent the last 30 years in the liberal bubble and never had to face the truth about the wretched 70's and better 80's.

kim

Hmm, does he think taxing energy will solve our energy problems? Why, now I see why the Dems love him.

Raise taxes, not armed forces.
===========================

MikeS

"...not long ago, people considered Bill so brilliant at campaigning that..."

He is brilliant, but in the same way as a Mad Scientist. In 1992 Bill Clinton needed a failed Republican economy in order to be competitive, so he invented one! He just kept saying, "Worst economy in 40 years," and many people believed him. They still do! As John Kerry said, "...these attacks, no matter how bogus, can spread and take root if they go unchecked."

Obama has scrupulously avoided mentioning his race in this campaign. Yet yesterday Bill Clinton accused him of, "playing the race card."

It is also apparent that Obama is doing his homework. He has lifted "Change, Hope for Change, and Change you can believe in," directly from Clinton/Gore '92, and is attempting to glean what he can from Reagan/Bush '80.

anduril

Here's a link to Hitchens on the prospect of a new Clinton admin: Christopher Hitchens reacts to Bill Clinton unplugged

MayBee

Reagan/Carter:
Electoral vote: 489 to 49
States carried: 44 to 6+DC
Popular vote: 43,903,230 to 35,480,115
Percentage: 50.7% to 41.0%


Reagan/Mondale
electoral vote: 525 to 13
States carried: 49 to 1+DC
Popular vote: 54,455,472 37,577,352
Percentage: 58.8% 40.6%

----
The Clintons, by golly, are wooing the Carter/Mondale voters. They are out there!

Other Tom

Lucianne links to a wonderful column about the Clintons by William Greider--in The Nation!

Good one, MayBee--I think you're on to something.

Charlie (Colorado)

Let's see: if I'm getting this, the Obamas are complaining that Bill Clinton will say anything to get elected, and will lie straight-faced and figure its just doing what you gotta do.

Golly that sounds familiar.

vnjagvet

I think the best advice I can give Hillary! is "let Bill be Bill".

And I mean that with all sincerety. At least as much as Bill can fake. Tee Hee.

myracle

Yo bloggers, remember brother Karl Rove rapp'n to the masses wit his souja dance? If he can do it anybodee can....p..e..a..c..e

myracle

Turd Blossom Karl, you make the rockin' world go round.
=======================

Jane

You know the best thing that could happen in this election would be for Hillary to get nominated and lose the general badly. There would be no coming back from that, and the Clintons would be forced to simply slink away.

The second best thing that could happen would be for Hillary to win, bring the country to its knees and make sure a democrat is never elected again. But that's a very stiff price to pay.

GMax

make sure a democrat is never elected again.

If that were the case, I would think that after Jiminy Carter we would already be to that state of bliss. Unfortunately, there are a lot of voters who dont pay much attention, understand it all even less and vote on emotion and slogans not substance.

I still think its hard for a Democrat to crack 50%, but with a little help from a friend or too, maybe they dont need but 48 0r 49% and change.

MikeS

I think the best thing that could happen is if all the Republican candidates would attack Bill Clinton at tonight' debate, because it's the right thing to do. Besides why should the media and the Democrats have all the fun.

Bill Clinton is lying now and he was lying in 1992 and thereafter. I may be stuck on stupid but I really do blame him for the Politics of Poisonous Partisanship, that emerged while he was president, and the deep partisan divide it caused in the country. Now he is using the same tactics to divide the Democrats.

I think competition between Political Parties is a good thing, but it shouldn't devolve into a contest over who can tell the best lies.

If Republicans attack Bill Clinton, how would Obama respond?

PMII

Jane,

Ditto's

Jane

there are a lot of voters who dont pay much attention, understand it all even less and vote on emotion and slogans not substance.

Isn't that the truth. Here is a replay of my conversation at dinner last night with a friend:

Me: "Who do you like in the election?"

Friend: "Well Obama doesn't have enough experience, Edwards is really out of it, so I guess Hillary because there are only three."

Sue

Jane,

Maybe your friends could vote for Huckabee. My hairdresser is going to. She's a democrat, btw, and thinks his name will appear on the democratic ticket. I didn't tell her any different since he looks like a democrat to me too.

centralcal

Absolutely howling with laughter over Sue's post on her hairdresser and Huckabee!!!

Pofarmer

Now, you’ve heard it all before. You look at the economic policies when they’re being debated among the presidential candidates, it’s all tax cuts. Well, we know, we’ve done that; we’ve tried it. That’s not really going to solve our energy problems, for example.

Hmmmmm, largest govt intakes of funds ever, but, nah, the tax cuts didn't do anything. Obviously, we'll just jack taxes to the sky and that will make everything better.

What a bunch of Maroons.

Jane

It's all just sad. We put so much time into getting it right, and the idiots get to decide.

Sue

Jane,

I know. I read every word I can find on the candidates and make my choice carefully. I can pick them out of a line-up. I know their wives names. The bills they sponsored. Where they vacation. And my hairdresser doesn't even know if the man she sort of likes is a republican or a democrat. Makes you wish for a test or something before letting them vote. Sort of.

Sue

centralcal,

I have this lovely vision of her scratching her head wondering when Huckabee dropped out or why they left his name off the democratic primary ballot. ::grin::

Porchlight

In 1992 Bill Clinton needed a failed Republican economy in order to be competitive, so he invented one! He just kept saying, "Worst economy in 40 years," and many people believed him.

MikeS, I think you're onto something. We were coming out of the recession in 1992, but most of the electorate didn't know that, so they were ripe for the persuadin' by Bill and his supporters in the MSM. Now we have an electorate who were never told much if any of the good news about the Bush economy in the last six years.

So, since Iraq isn't the issue that the Dems hoped it would be at this point in the cycle, all the news is focusing on the economy going south. A perfect set-up for the Dems. How convenient.

Other Tom

Actually, Porchlight, in 1992 the country had long been out of the recession, and in fact the last previous quarter of negative growth had been the first quarter of 1991. The figures for GDP, by quarter, for 1991 and '92 were as follows:

1991 01 -2.0249
1991 02 2.6217
1991 03 1.9445
1991 04 1.8895
1992 01 4.2079
1992 02 3.9133
1992 03 3.9825
1992 04 4.4807

In short, Clinton and Gore simply lied. They lied repeatedly and earnestly, and no one called them on it. What else is new?

MikeS

Other Tom,
What's new is that the media and some Democrats are confronting Bill Clinton for his lies (about Obama).

hit and run

TM:
The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy celebrates its tenth birthday next Sunday, and who is our current best friend? I nominate Barack and Michelle Obama

I think you're on to something:

I said it yesterday...Obama's soon to be labeled a Republican -- saying he admired Reagan...

...but now calling Bill a liar? Well, he'll soon be a part of the VRWC to boot.

Jaded

I am so proud to be a member of the VRWC thanks to all those who belong to the best damn club that the Clinton money cannot buy.

GMax

Clinton and Gore simply lied.

Duh they are Democrats. They all have read the entrails of the McGovern campaign. It tells them loud and clear, do not tell the electorate what you really believe. And they dont, except in the peoples republic of San Francisco and a few other choice garden spots. They cant get away with being honest even in Blue States in statewide races for the most part.

Once you start lying about what you believe, its only one more small step to start lying about facts like whether we are in a recession or not. And if you are a very good liar ( like Bill ) it works well if the Media plays along and never says "What about the Bureau of Labor Statistics?"

Topsecretk9

News flash - Saddam lied, people died...turning Liberal's Land of Make Believe on it's head -- yet again!

What was that about all that pressure to cook the books?

Patrick R. Sullivan
In short, Clinton and Gore simply lied. They lied repeatedly and earnestly, and no one called them on it. What else is new?

What was new, was that G.H.W. Bush didn't call them at it. All he had to do was point out the difference in the Misery Index during the Volcker Recession/Depression, which was a lot closer than 40 years prior.

But, the strong growth in 1992 not having much effect on the electorate is because unemployment lags growth. People who have lost and not regained their jobs, and people who are nervous about losing theirs will vote for a change, even when the leading economic indicators are good.

There ought to be a lesson in that for advocates of 'stimulus' now. It's too close to the election for it to have any effect on it. Even if it works...which is dubious.

hit and run

Repub debate tonight -- Jane? Elliott?

centralcal

Quick question to JOMers. All these candidate generated emails sent out to supporters - does anyone read them? I never do. Even when it is a candidate I have contributed to. If I want to know what is up, I just go to their website and click around.

The MSM keep track of every candidate email, this charge, and that slur. Who reads em?

Rick Ballard

"Even if it works...which is dubious."

It's extraordinarily dubious considering that initial claims for unemployment have fallen for four weeks in a row. The revision to the December unemployment figure is going to be amusing.

The Boomer exodus from the work force has begun and it will be a while until the BLS acknowledges that their model is busted.

Porchlight

Sorry if I was unclear earlier. The point I meant to make was, even if we were well out of recession in 1992, voters didn't know it because the media fed them a steady diet of bad news. Hence Bill was able to lie about it with impunity. GHW Bush did try to counter (see bolded quote below, it could practically be a JOM comment), but the hill was too steep.

Just for fun, and if you'll forgive the long cut and paste, here's a NYT article from September 21, 1992:

THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: The Republicans; Bush Says Economy Is Not as Bad as People Think

BYLINE: By MICHAEL WINES, Special to The New York Times

DATELINE: WASHINGTON, Sept. 21


Hours after his Democratic rival began broadcasting a television commercial accusing him of misjudging Americans' economic pain, President Bush told a national radio audience today that the economy was not nearly as bad as people believed.

In an interview with Rush Limbaugh, the conservative radio talk-show host, Mr. Bush said that the economy was "poised for a dramatic recovery" and maintained that most people believed otherwise because they paid too much heed to the news media.

"I think they're feeling negative about the economy because they hear 92 percent of the coverage on the television -- where a lot of people get their news from -- on the economy has been negative," he said. "There are some good things. Interest rates are down. People aren't being robbed by inflation anymore. Inventories are down."

Bush Attacks Clinton on Draft

He added: "A lot of people think we're in a deep recession in this country. The irony is we are growing and we've grown for five quarters. Now, don't tell that to a guy that's worrying about his job tomorrow, but I am telling you, the fact that they've had hammered into them that things are a total disaster is influencing people's judgments."

The President's comments came the day after Gov. Bill Clinton's campaign broadcast its first television attack on Mr. Bush. The advertisement alternates film clips of Mr. Bush making cheery economic pronouncements with bleak statements about rising joblessness. "If George Bush doesn't understand the problem, how can he solve it?" the commercial says at the end.

Mr. Bush also spoke harshly about Mr. Clinton's explanation of his efforts to avoid the draft during the Vietnam War, saying his rival was guilty of a "total failure to come clean with the American people" on the issue.

Responding today in Chicago, Mr. Clinton said he had been straightforward on the draft matter, and cited an endorsement last weekend by Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., the retired head of the Joints Chiefs of Staff, as evidence that the issue should now be forgotten.

"Admiral Crowe has more credibility on truth-telling than George Bush," Mr. Clinton said.

(I left the part about the draft-dodging in b/c it shows that Bush tried to push back against more than one line of Clinton BS.)

So basically, it doesn't even matter what the real state of the economy is. We had steady growth for years under Bush, but it was always spun gloomily by the media and now voters are really scared. What Republican strategy can effectively counter the boost Dems will receive from the Henny Penny MSM?

anduril

OT

The Complex Crux Of Wireless Warfare

[teaser intro grafs]

-- hostlist.6223.soscoe.c16.

That line of code, like modern-day hieroglyphics, flashes on a flat screen in a classified Boeing plant under the studious gaze of the warriors of the future: software developers, one with spiked hair, another who looks too young to vote. They are working on the largest software program in Defense Department history, a project that the military says dwarfs Microsoft's Windows. The project is the heart of Future Combat Systems, the Army's most expensive weapons program.

"There's nothing like it, ever," said Loren B. Thompson, a defense consultant at the Lexington Institute, a public policy think tank. "Nobody has ever before attempted to integrate a software system as remotely complicated as FCS is going to be. It is many times more complicated than any other defense program."

Future Combat Systems, or FCS, is a roughly $200 billion weapons program that military officials consider the most thorough modernization of the Army since World War II. It all depends on the software, under development by the Army's battalion of contractors, led by Boeing. The software is intended to do what military commanders have until now only dreamed about: give soldiers the power to communicate through a wireless network in near real time with hovering drones; remotely control robots to defuse bombs; fire laser-guided missiles at enemies on the move; and conduct a video teleconference in a tank rumbling about 40 mph in the haze of battle.

anduril

"I think because of the very tough time the United States has had at home and abroad in the last two years, those of us who thought that the Clinton years would just be an unpleasant memory, something in the rear view mirror a few years back, turned out to be wrong. To many people, including some who don’t remember it that well, the younger voters, it seems like a halcyon period.

"Yes, the holiday from history.

"Yeah. Now, now, you get ugly, crude, vulgar reminders of oh, yes, of course, that’s what it was like. All the time you had to see these bitter, twisted, selfish, needy, greedy, entitled faces in terms of voice in the executive mansion. No, no, no more of that, surely."

Rick Ballard

Porchlight,

While this interwebs thing isn't the giant killer that was initially advertised (cut pork? - how 'bout cut stupid first?) it still provides a lot of ammo for rebuttal to the lies.

GHWB cut his own throat with "Read my lips." followed by buying George Mitchell's BS on raising taxes. I'd chalk his loss up to his own ineptitude to a greater extent than I would chalk it up to the MSM spin on the economy.

I figure the MSM cost GW five points in the '04 general - that's what has to be overcome on that front. If Reps start taking the ABC pledge en masse then we'll hold the WH. I have extraordinarily strong reservations concerning McCain but if he tops the ticket, he'll have my vote.

I very much want to see Broom I in a smoking crater come November.

Jane

Hit,

I'll be here to snark during the debate as I understand the Huckster is still running. hopefully Elliott is available for the serious stuff.

Soylent Red

Turd Blossom Karl, you make the rockin' world go round.

The Bald Man quietly, almost absently, muttered, "Word."

Sue
The Bald Man quietly, almost absently, muttered, "Word."

LOL.

Bill in AZ

Just when I was beginning to think "Global Warming" fell down the same memory hole as "The Coming Ice Age", Punxatawney Gore rears his ugly head a few days early for groundhog day:
Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared

I feel sorry for all you folks in the northland, winter will be sticking around for a couple more months. It's snowing here in AZ right now...

MikeS

No matter what Bill and Hillary and their confederates will be throwing these sorts of bombs relentlessly until November. Only their target will change.

I think it's better for Republicans to attack the Clinton's credibility now instead of waiting for the attacks to be directed at Republicans.

Ann

Centraical,

I never read the emails or the campaign letters. The Heritage Foundation is really bad at asking for your oh so important opinion on things while asking for another donation.

Ann

If you want goosebumps, Thomas Lifson at AT links to this advertisement for the Marines. It is really great.
MARINES

Porchlight

Rick,

GHWB didn't do himself any favors with taxes, true enough. And with a Clinton as the opponent there will be plenty of ammunition for use in all directions. But I suspect that "it's the economy, stupid" will make an early and regular appearance, so someone should start planning for it.

MikeS,

So many lies, so little time. I agree, the anti-Clinton work needs to start now.

hit and run

Ann, when you see the San Franciso shots in that ad, don't forget, the Marines were snubbed by that city.

windansea

anyone have a good live blog for the debate?

no msnbc here

hit and run

Well, here, if Elliott and Jane are in form.

If not, then Stephen Green is a good drunk blogger, though he seems a little less than fully committed tonight.

hit and run

Scooter joins team McCain

With Fred dropping out, I suppose it was going to happen.


No, not that Scooter.

Elliott

I can't blog the debate tonight. But, I earnestly hope to join in the aftersnarking.

Jane

Okay, where should we have the debate?

Jane

Ooops, I just posted this in the wrong place.

Let's debate in the Tiger thread and let's have everyone contribute, since Elliott will be very missed.

Ann

Hit, I had forgotten about the San Fran Marine snub.

Also, to sweeten my story from the other thread, I have known my husband since 8th grade. We didn't get married until our late twenties. He kinda had to marry me because I DO know all his secrets. :)

JM Hanes

Mike S

Going after Hillary tonight could just blow the thing away, but I doubt anyone will do it, more's the pity.

JM Hanes

Andrea Mitchell thinks McCain was reassuring to Republican conservatives? She'll probably deny that's what she meant tomorrow.

JM Hanes

I love Mitt's opener on the Billary question, btw. Probably because that's exactly how I feel. Russert was hoping for something juicy when he asked "What does that mean?" -- like we don't know exactly what that meant? -- a question Romney wisely ignored

JM Hanes

Huckabee has been running against the Clinton machine in Arkansas all these years!

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Wilson/Plame