In An Alternate Times-World (Old Times There Have Been Forgotten)

With Obama as a launching point Timeswoman Kate Zernike writes about Presidential charisma; at one point she takes up the question of whether Kennedy's charisma could have pushed his Civil Rights legislation through the Congress, or whether (as Hillary noted in New Hampshire) it took the more pragmatic dealmeister, LBJ.  However, Ms. Zernike goes historically and hysterically awry with this:

When Mrs. Clinton talked about how it took Johnson as well as the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to achieve the rights legislation, Ms. Goodwin said, “she was absolutely right.” Johnson’s great mastery was to get the support of Southern Republicans. “It required his understanding of absolutely every single senator,” Ms. Goodwin said. “They were a team. Without Martin Luther King agitating the country and J.F.K. picking up the bill there would not have been that pressure on the Congress, and without L.B.J. there would not have been a bill.

Ms. Goodwin is not quoted as lauding Johnson's mastery of the Southern Republicans, so I am left believing that to be Ms. Zernike's extrapolation.  However, per Wikipedia, there were darn few Southern Republican available to vote, and all opposed the Civil Rights Act.

Let's see - in the House, where the outcome was not in doubt, Southern Democrats opposed the original bill by 87-7; Southern Republicans opposed it by 10-0.

In the Senate, where many thought the bill would be killed in committee or filibustered to death, Southern Democrats opposed the bill by 20-1; the lone Southern Republican Senator also opposed the bill.

For these purposes, "Southern" means a member of the 11 Confederate States of America.

Baffling.  Maybe Ms. Zernike is referring to border state Senators, but the story from the Deep South was nothing like she presented here.

Comments

[GMax]

Minority Leader Senator Everett Dirksen R Illinois was more responsible for the civil rights legislation than anyone other legislature. He certainly delivered a much higher % of his caucus for the bill than the Majority Leader did.

[Jim Hu]

I've been reading Walls of Jericho, which covers that time period. My impression is that Johnson needed Dirkson, and Humphrey's floor leadership was important, as were a lot of other factors.

An interesting aspect was the need to go counter to LBJ's usual dealmaking approach. The House had to be assured that they weren't going to take controversial stands and then have the final bill get watered down in the Senate.

Really a fascinating time in our history.

[MikeS]

This doesn't feel right. This nice Kate Zernike created a narrative. Then she invented some details and twisted some others to support her narrative.
Now you come along with a few facts and cheapen the whole effort.

Pure misogyny I say.

[SteveMG]

The Southern Democrats who opposed the sixties Civil Rights legislation were all strong supporters, at the same time, of LBJ's Great Society programs. Indeed, many of them were supporters of FDR's New Deal programs as well.

It does illustrate how remarkable that New Deal coalition that FDR created: leftwing northerners, southern segregationists, socialists, et cetera. To be able to contain such a melange of interests and views for four decades is stunning to realize.

[Forbes]

Democrats were the party of segregation for a century--an inconvenient truth--so a little revision is in order. Make the Republicans appear as the last holdouts baring the Democrats historic way forward.

These revisionist narratives appear often, so it's no wonder the Times is viewed as a mouthpiece for the DNC.

[JustAnotherDude]

As stated above, Senator Everett Dirksen was responsible for getting the civil rights bills passed in the 1960s. Prior to meeting Martin Luther King in person, he was not sure if the civil rights bills were the proper remedy for the country. However, after a personal meeting with King, he threw his weight behind the civil rights bills and he was able to convince most Republicans to support it, which prevent the Southern Democrats from killing the bills. In fact, President Johnson relied on Dirksen to push the bills through since LBJ couldn't control his own party.

[bgates]

It does illustrate how remarkable that New Deal coalition that FDR created: leftwing northerners, southern segregationists, socialists, et cetera.

Yeah, that coalition had people who thought they should control how others lived their lives, and...

...who else, exactly?

The New Deal coalition reminds me of the bar from "The Blues Brothers" - "We got both kinds of music: country and western!"

[Mory]

The Dirkson federal building is in Chicago ' like Obama, Oprah, Congressmen who want to control foreign funds and Exclusionary Obamasiah Church. Chicago can't take care of all the Obama shit. He got in office through his church.

[Other Tom]

I recall that Barry Goldwater forcefully opposed the Act, on the grounds of federalism and states' rights. His reward was to carry five states of the Deep South, in addition to Arizona, in November of '64.

I don't recall that he ever expressed any subsequent regret over his stance, but my guess is that he did regret it indeed.

[Other Tom]

Just sent the hapless Ms. Zernike an irate e-mail, essentially plagiarizing TM's borrowings from Wikipedia. I've become quite the busybody lately--comes with old age and idleness.

[Larry]

Posted by: Other Tom | February 17, 2008 at 07:16 PM I doubt he did regret it, O T. I think his was a principled states rights/federalist stance. My recollection of Goldwater, the first candidate I voted for for prez, was that he followed his conscience and let the chips fall where they may

[Larry]

They don't make 'em like Dirksen and Goldwater any more. I have special fondness for ole Ev, who gave me my appointment to USAF Academy. Who once said, "A billion here, a billion there. Pretty soon you're talking about real money."

[GMax]

Ever been to the zoo when the chimps start flinging poo? As long as you are not in the line of fire, its a hoot! With that in mind read this lifted from TalkLeft:

I was part of an online politics discussion community for YEARS. I have had to leave. The Obama people--who were my "progressive" "friends"--are

1. Nasty to people who say anything in Clinton's favor, even if it's supplying data from historical links or something that seems quite carefully chosen.

2. Mysogynic. But they are a big sly and/or offhand about it, and then deny it.

3. Self-righteous to the hilt. Obama-supporters who are a bit more reasonable (usually a woman) will ask them to tone it down a bit now and then, and they'll explain in several paragraphs how all the right is on their side, all the wrong, every bit, therefore, on the other, and btw, they are less sexist than the Clinton supporters, so there, you have it on the highest authority, theirs.

Just wait until after Texas and Ohio and the Hillbillys are back on top, and the Obamaniacs get a chance to fling theirs!! I am so enjoying this.

[GMax]

In the context of "hows that dream ticket thing working out?" Read this and chuckle:

Clinton delegates voting for Obama?? Well maybe...but I can guarantee you that Barack Obama cannot and will not get enough of Hillary Clinton general election votes to win the presidency. I have voted Democrat all of my life which includes five presidential elections and I am very proud for having done so! But I will NEVER NEVER vote for Barack Obama! And I can guarantee you that there are millions of Democrats who feel the way that I do! Even if this means dealing with John McCain for the next four years. I urge every Hillary supporter that if Hillary does not get the nomination to vote for John McCain!

Change. Courage. Peace Love and Paisley Skies!

[Jane]

Why won't they vote for him? Their policies are nearly identical. Is it because he dared to oppose a Clinton?

[Other Tom]

On another thread I posted a remark I pirated from Pajamas Media that is so rich I am going to repeat it: "The Clintons are experiencing a Caucescu moment." Oh, I do love it so. I want cameras filming their every step when the ultimate meltdown comes. I want special-access reporters taking notes for subsequent lenghty accounts in Newsweek. I want Inside Edition lurking when the ashtrays start to fly. I want them--and in particular I want him--not just to be defeated, but to be humiliated, to be sent off the stage to the sound of raucous laughter.

[Jane]

Me too OT. And I'm ashamed. Well I'm not really ashamed. But I probably should be.

[Larry]

"...the zoo when the chimps start flinging poo?" Posted by: GMax | February 17, 2008 at 08:47 PM My folks lived in San Diego from '60 till they died in the '90's. Whenever I was there for more than overnight, I made sure to go to the zoo. The gorilla and orangutan pits are/were next to each other. I can't recall a visit when neither threw poo! Those primates were probably much brighter than their homo sap cousins on the left. I'm investing in popcorn futures.

The trouble with quoting Doris Goodwin is that you can never be sure who else should be attributed.

[Larry]

"Ideally", Ms. Goodwin said, you’d have the combination of experience and charisma, “if you could mush Clinton and Obama together as one person.” Ya, they'd cancel each other out to leave zero charisma and added together they'd still be close to zero experience.

[dick]

Jane,

Read the Talk Left website. They are opposed to him because supposedly he is anti-feminist because he said that periodically Hillary has to get angry. They take this to mean that when she has a period, she gets angry and that therefore Obama is sexist. And they are truly vicious in their denunciation of him for this. Amazing. I thought they were all so forgiving and so inclusive while the republicans were vile.

[GMax]

OH NO Dont mix those two things together. They may be incomplete and harmless indivisually, but combined they make a very unstable element which might blow up the entire country.

[Jane]

Dick,

Thanks. I really can't bring myself to spend time at Talk Left. I appreciate your doing it for me.

[Other Tom]

Jane, no need to start with the feeling guilty stuff. I have had the same impulse from time to time--"Good God, this is so un-Christian of me!" But then I pause and think, "what would Jesus have wanted," and in my heart I know He would have enjoyed a good Caucescu moment as much as the next man. I mean, look what He did to the money-changers in the temple, right?

[Ralph L]

Dick, they're too stupid to realize that "periodically" doesn't apply to Hillary at 61, unless she's a freak.

[Other Tom]

I would be gleefully strafing and bombing over at TalkLeft, but they long ago banned me. Next week I'll take the laptop to the ski lodge and log in under a wholly new monicker, and then hit them with a series of dung-bombs.. Stay tuned; I'll report back.

[narciso]

By the way, as CBS descends deeper in to the sludge with 'Dexter'; then again after CSI/LAMINY, Criminal Minds and Cold Case
they really didn't go to far down the slope; 10;00 is the alternate serial killer
hour. what he's a crime fighting serial killer; the Knight Rider reboat goes out with a hat tip to Black River as the group planning World Domi. . .well you get the drift. This is in keeping with the Hallibur-Water characterization ofRavenwood/Jennings & Rall as the company behind the nuclear attacks on "Jericho' a similar group hunting vampires on "Moonlight". I guess Cyberdyne is just Dich Cheney's pet project.

[JM Hanes]

OT:

I'm pretty sure Jesus would have spelled Ceausescu correctly, but carry on!

[Jane]

I know He would have enjoyed a good Caucescu moment as much as the next man.

What a way to start the day.

I'm pretty sure Jesus would have spelled Ceausescu correctly, but carry on!

But could he pronounce it?

[anduril]

Amazing. I always thought it was spelled with a "c" in the middle, but it is Ceausescu, the "s" having a small hook under it. It's pronounced Chow-shes-ku. I always thought there was a "ch" sound in the middle.

[Jim Miller]

"The Southern Democrats who opposed the sixties Civil Rights legislation were all strong supporters, at the same time, of LBJ's Great Society programs. Indeed, many of them were supporters of FDR's New Deal programs as well."

That's a little too strong. Many, perhaps most, southern Democrats at that time were part of the conservative coalition, which meant that they voted with the Republicans on economic issues. Together, the two groups controlled most Congresses between, say, about 1944 and 1964.

And earlier, while it is true that many southern Democrats -- LBJ, for instance -- backed FDR, it is also true that many came to oppose him over time. In fact, FDR attempted, without great success, to purge some of them.

[Jane]

So now The NY Times and Drudge are reporting that Obama is stealing rhetoric from MA Governor Deval Patrick, who also campaigned on rhetoric and was devoid of any substance. That didn't bother MA democrats then, altho his current "F" rating might make them rethink that strategy.

[Ralph L]

Do you think the Deval experience will stop them from voting enthusiastically for Obama? "The Dream will never die."

[Other Tom]

Shoulda Googled Ceaucescu...

Here's a rich one to chew on from Armstrong Williams. If only I could believe it were true:

"The word on the street is that the Obama campaign and New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg have already met and devised an incredible plan if Clinton wins the nominee [sic]. Mayor Bloomberg would give nearly $1 billion to Obama's campaign after which Obama would bolt from the Democratic Party and run as an Independent candidate with king-maker Bloomberg as his running mate. The Obama campaign realizes that Obama is too new at this game and doesn't have the political weight of the Clintons to bring in the true heavy-hitters of the party's hierarchy. So, according to sources it was Bloomberg himself who suggested this cunning strategy. It's mind boggling that the Clintons are willing to destroy the entire Democratic Party, and potentially in the process lose the White House and seats in Congress, for their own selfish thirst for power and glory."

[clarice]

Clap your hands if you believe in Bloomberg.

[Jane]

Oooh I hope that happens. What a fun campaign season this is!

[Topsecretk9]

-Posted by: Other Tom | February 18, 2008 at 11:40 AM--

Didn't Obama have a special meeting with Bloomberg a while ago?

Why yes, he did.

Obama, Bloomberg Hold Mystery Breakfast Meeting

Obama-Bloomberg '08 NYC Meeting Raises Eyebrows

Obama Has Breakfast with Bloomberg

Linky

[RichatUF]

OT-

I laughed out loud with the Obama-Bloomberg comment. Anything to keep the dream alive.

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

I have BHO down for a solid win in CD-2 (Madison - Prog Heaven) and CD-4 (Milwaukeee - Dem Segregated district). Do you see any other solid district wins for him?

[Sue]

Bloomberg refused to run as an independent if his friend McCain was the republican nominee. I would be more worried about Bloomberg hooking up with McCain than Obama.

[Other Tom]

The biggest favor Bloomberg could do for McCain would be to fund an Obama third-party campaign. But I don't think for one nanosecond that Obama would do it.

[Other Tom]

The biggest favor Bloomberg could do for McCain would be to fund an Obama third-party campaign. But I don't think for one nanosecond that Obama would do it.

[RichatUF]

I was looking over at Drudge and does anyone else have that "a predator is watching them" feel with that BHO-Edwards picture.

Also I'm not so sure that Bloomberg would contribute a billion dollars for a kingmaker run-far too gratitous. If Obama were to lose the nomination to RW, Obama can then work to make sure she doesn't win the general and set himself up well for 2012.

[GMax]

The region along the shore of Lake Michigan just north of Chicago and up to Milwaukee, may be fertile ground for Obama with the yachting latte sippers. I dont know how they blend those area in with the Congressional districts, but Lakefront property is pretty pricey. Lots of second homes for Chicago swells in the area. That also means that Obama may be rolling buses up into Wisconsin, like Kerry is reported to have done. You can register same day in Wisconsin and Governor Doyle twice vetoed voter ID laws so its pretty simple to do.

[Brainster]

It seems obvious to me that Goodwin meant "Northern Republicans", so either she misspoke or Zernike misheard/mistranscribed.

[Porchlight]

Kenosha is also in the part of the state Gmax mentioned (CD-1). It's a sizable college town, 15K students/96K total population. And Racine's mayor endorsed Obama recently. CD-1 is basically a Chicago bedroom community, so if Wisconsin's same-day registration is anything like Minnesota's, as Gmax says expect lots of buses from Chicago.

[cathyf]

It is well-known among Milwaukeeans that once a month a parade of rattletrap vehicles roll into town. It is the Chicago residents who have signed up for welfare benefits in Illinois with their real addresses and Wisconsin under phoney ones, making the monthly trek to pick up their checks.

It's easy enough for them to come up on election day. And given that they have "established" Milwaukee addresses, they could vote even if Wisconsin required ID.

[Other Tom]

My guess would be that Goodwin would have said simply "Republicans."

[Rick Ballard]

GMax,

Here is a decent map. CD-1,5 and 6 are partial lakefront and Republican, CD-8 is Democrat. The effective Democrat segregation of blacks into CD-4 and progs into CD-2 leaves income as the next demographic marker and on that basis CD-3, 6, 7 and 8 should lean Clinton. If lakefront libs do go for Obama, then CD-1 and 5 might be his. That would mean

[Rick Ballard]

Stupid Typus Pad.

That would mean he would take 25 delegates to RWs 23 because some districts are more equal than others. I'm still ambivalent about him collecting the other 26 delegates because I have doubts about him taking an actual majority.

[GMax]

I would give Obama the clear nod in 2 and 4 and probably 1. I doubt he gets 5 as most of that district is inland and middle class.

Upstate is clearly Clinton country.

One demographic that we have not yet heard from that is somewhat prominent in Wisconsin, is the Indian tribes. Lots of smaller tribes spread around the State, mostly in the upstate region. If they break like the Hispanics and Asians, heavily to Clinton she may have a walk upstate in those three districts.