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March 15, 2008

Comments

dick

I'm rather interested in what affect all this has on those who recently made up their minds to support Obama.

I read the essay by Camille Paglia in support of Barack just the other day where she essentially said she could never vote for Hillary. In light of the news about Barack has this had any change on her support for him. That would be an interesting essay to read.

largebill

We had a chance to run against a candidate who had not been vetted at all. By the Dem convention Clinton will have enough super-delegates convinced that between Rezko and the nutty pastor Obama is unelectable.

Limbaugh must be feeling like quite a fool now for helping keep Clinton alive in this race. If you have a chance to poor water on the witch just poor the damn water.

boris

Dunno. If not for keeping Hillary's campaign alive to this point there might never have been this kind of exposure. Seems Hannity has been pointing to this screed for over a year. Why now all of a sudden? Did right wing bloggers finally break through to the MSM or was there some help from ...

Rick Ballard

Water?

If it's not stake, cremation and scattering the ashes at sea you're kidding yourself.

There's always the possibility that Rush counted up delegates and went with RW on the basis of keeping her hopes up - and her claws functioning. The current objective is to have blood flow as freely and voluminously for as long as possible.

The Great Reconciler promises that he has a plan to heal all wounds. RW is just giving him a chance to prove his veracity by inflicting a few.

sbw

[Double post. I caught the end of the last thread.]

I dislike when someone is not straightforward, when someone dissembles, and when someone lies. The underlying problem is not the hatred expressed by Obama's minister. It is Obama.

Whether it is Obama on NAFTA, Obama on his house, Obama on Chicago hospital influence that seems to get his wife a $100K job and then a 200k raise, Obama on his minister, or Obama on unspecified, chameleon-like change in his stump speech.

The warning signs are clear. There is nothing there to trust.

ben

"Limbaugh must be feeling like quite a fool now for helping keep Clinton alive in this race. If you have a chance to poor water on the witch just poor the damn water."

Don't be so sure...the extended race has brought more scrutiny on Obama and has taken him down several notches from Messiah status, and rather than walking on water he is now merely walking on quicksand. Yes, this would have come out in the general, but then it would be attributed to Republican attack dogs and vast right wing conspiracies. On the other hand, if Hillary does pull it off, she might have alienated a key voting blocks, African-Americans and young idealistic liberals. So I really don't see a downside in having the circus continue.

That been said, the pleasure of seeing Hillary humiliated would have been great...but it could still happen.

Sue

If Obama wasn't aware of his preacher's hatred filled sermons, how do you explain http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/politics/30obama.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin>this NYTs article from 4/30/2007?

where he fortified himself with recordings of Mr. Wright’s sermons,

“If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me,” Mr. Wright said with a shrug. “I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen.”

So, what we are witnessing is what was discussed in April of 2007. But Obama didn't know.

Sue

I meant to use this quote from the article too.

“Reverend Wright is a child of the 60s, and he often expresses himself in that language of concern with institutional racism and the struggles the African-American community has gone through,” Mr. Obama said. “He analyzes public events in the context of race. I tend to look at them through the context of social justice and inequality.”

The Audacity of HopeLying. Obama not only knew of the sermons, he practiced the oratory style of his pastor.

boris

Yes, this would have come out in the general, ...

Not sure but doubt it.

SunnyDay

Sue that is the ultimate proof - he did know. Better save that one, I bet it's going to disappear.

Ann

From NBC's Chuck Todd
We have final delegate allocation estimates directly from the Iowa Democratic Party based on today's 99 county conventions. The results, Obama indeed did gain 7 delegates to up his total from 16 (earned on Jan. 3) to 23 now. Clinton upped her total by 1, from 15 to 16 and Edwards dropped 8 delegates to 6. Those six will be up for grabs, perhaps, at the Iowa Democratic Party state convention in June.

Here's the updated delegate total, counting these new Iowa allocations:

Pledged Count: Obama leads 1,407-1,252
Superdelegates: Clinton leads 253-217
OVERALL TOTAL: Obama leads 1,624-1,505

Elliott

With what I hope will be regarded as appropriate deference to our preeminent host, I humbly submit the following as "the [editorial] change we've been waiting for":

My impression is that his minister, Jeremiah Wright, is an extremely intelligent and well-educated man who is well-versed in black History.
Sue

From what I've been reading on pro-Obama sites, this is not going to matter to them. He may lose some of those democrats who were waffling between him and Hillary, but he isn't going to lose his base supporters. He is still the Messiah. And if he doesn't get the nominee, it will be ugly.

Pug

Seems I remember a letter Bill Clinton wrote to his draft board in the 1960's in which he said he "loathed" the military, and these were his words not his pastor's. He was also "unelectable" at that point. Not to mention that the Gennifer Flowers tapes had finished him off even before that.

ben

....He was also "unelectable" at that point.....

Clinton had to overcome draft-dodging and Gennifer, true, but remember he was running as a New Democrat, centrist candidate, a Southern boy. And if Obama gets the same 42% of the vote Clinton did, he will certainly lose.

Dagpotter

My son just did 9 weeks on the Holocaust in 8th grade Alabama middle school. I guess he could learn more about Hispanics. Unfortunately a large part of Black history in America is glossed over here.

sbw

Well, a lot of history history is glossed over in history. They don't know what to study, why, and all that matters anyway is that whatever is taught can be tested.

Maggie

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out. I'm a Republican-leaning Independent who started this cycle committed to not voting for the Republicans in light of the disastrous last four years. I'm also the sort who would rather eat nails than vote for Hillary, who has exhibited zero by way of integrity. I'd have thought that if HRC managed to slime her way to the nomination that I'd have voted for McCain over Clinton. As much as I think the Republicans need to be out of office this year, I won't vote for Clinton under any circumstances.

So this is a new wrinkle for me. Now it seems like Obama might actually not win the nomination. And for what it's worth, I think it 's plain as day what's going on with him and Wright. Obama has a connection with that community, but also obviously doesn't harbor a single 'angry black man' bone in his own body. He loves them, but as he says, he represents a generation that has turned a page from that. You don't repudiate your fathers. You love them, but try to learn from their failings so that you don't repeat them. That's all that's happening there.

Am guessing y'all don't much care about that. Am pretty sure you don't buy it (not that you are open to buying anything that wouldn't slime the guy). But the reason I'm posting is not to try to change your mind. It's to make this observation about my funny situation. The ugliness of the way people like you are reacting to this. The willful desire to not even try to understand. The preference for taking him down on what is at bottom a bogus charge rather than taking him on over the issues. All of that makes me want to eat nails rather than vote for your candidate.

It would seem to make the GE a wild card. I'd have thought that Clinton's negatives would have made it difficult for her to win in November. But she's just clever enough that she might figure out a way to capture the voters who are angry at the OTT reaction from you guys. Indeed, she has remained pointedly quiet. And while some of the Clinton blogosophere is too stupid to shut up, other parts have quickly doped out that graciousness is the best policy here.

Funny if she's the one that walks away the winner here. I don't want to see her win dog catcher let alone the presidency. But if she does, I'll console myself with the thought that you guys got your ox gored. I'll enjoy that part of it.

Rick Ballard

Don't give up Hope, Maggie. True Change is always possible and we may yet become one in our Unified Diversity!

At least we're getting a better class of Moby out of this.

Paul Zrimsek

Obama has a connection with that community, but also obviously doesn't harbor a single 'angry black man' bone in his own body.

Fixed that for you, Maggie.

Sue

All of that makes me want to eat nails rather than vote for your candidate.

And just who do you think our candidate is? Most of us are holding our noses and voting for McCain. That's what most republican leaning independents will be doing this fall.

Bill Peschel

"Obama has a connection with that community, but also obviously doesn't harbor a single 'angry black man' bone in his own body. He loves them, but as he says, he represents a generation that has turned a page from that. You don't repudiate your fathers. You love them, but try to learn from their failings so that you don't repeat them. That's all that's happening there."

Maggie, I do not dispute the logic of your argument. It may even be true.

But don't we need to hear that from Obama? Don't we have a right to judge the man by his actions? By who he associates with? Not by what we "imagine" is going through his head. No one can judge that.

ATM

Maggie, it is hard to evaluate Obama. His personal blandness could be his real nature or it may just be part of concerted strategy to remain electable. One thing I do find highly likely is that Michelle Obama's views are very similar to Wright's. Do we want a racist first lady?

Sue

You don't repudiate your fathers.

Really? Then why is Obama repudiating his 'father'? Why did he and his pastor discuss his inevitable repudiation of him (Wright) if he got past the primaries? I don't think you are intending it this way, but it seems to me Obama is just another politician, not the Messiah we were promised.

Sue

I don't understand a republican leaning independent who could vote for either Obama or Clinton. I could understand a republican leaning independent who might see an Evan Bayh as a viable alternative. But two of the most liberal candidates in the race? How dows that work? What part of republican were you to begin with?

Sara

Pug: Dick Morris said the other night that Clinton came to him with the draft board letter problem believing it could derail his campaign. So...Morris and Clinton put their heads together and foisted the Flowers tapes on us to deflect from what they believed to be a campaign ending circumstance in the letter. In other words, they used the bimbo eruption to their advantage, at least in this instance.

SteveMG

A perhaps more interesting question is not why did Obama associate with Wright, but why did Wright continue to associate with Obama?

It certainly seems to me that the Obama of today - if he was the Obama of yesterday as well - would be considered by Wright as a betrayer of the black race; or at least someone ignorant of the true injustices done by America and white people.

What was in it for Wright?

sbw

Maggie, tell me something he stands for that is substantive that is worthwhile. So far he's for platitudes.

Does he believe in free trade? Does he believe in the free market economy? Does he believe in liberty? And if he believes in equality, what kind of equality does he believe in? If it is economic equality by mandate, he just doesn't understand economics.

And does he believe that more government is the answer to social problems? That goes against at least 300 years of economic history.

Nobody gives a rat's behind about one's skin, but we do care about when one acts like a snake oil salesman.

Paul Zrimsek

Incidentally, the video clips I've seen of Wright picked up a good deal of audience reaction. I've humored the occasional old fart in my time but I don't remember ever being quite that enthusiastic about it.

Rick Ballard

"What part of republican were you to begin with?"

The lifelong Democrat part. She's got good dudgeon but needs to work on those details just a tad.

Porchlight

So Moby Maggie, I'm curious - if Clinton is the nominee, for whom will you vote? Sounds like your choices will be eating nails or staying home. If I really believed you were a "Republican-leaning Independent," I guess the idea of you staying home would concern me. Yet strangely I just don't feel that worried.

narciso

The most disturbing thing, I've seen yet is that Gerald Posner, debunker of the JFK and MLK conspiracies; although he's become a promoter of one, beginning with his glimpse
of the Abu Zubeydah interrogation has become
a conspiracist himself; is still for Obama.
(Of course, this comes from his posting on
the Indonesian charity case, the Huffington
Post, linked by Glenn Reynolds)Posner, previewed some of the more extreme and unprovable assertions, about the Saudi plans to blow up their oil facilities in Huff Po* Arianna's fortune, comes from her divorce from 'husband' Michael Huffington, whose family fortune came from Indonesian oil.

Oprah, not surprisingly, attends Wright's church; from a preeningwrite up of the good Reverend in the Chicago Times; also from Glenn. You know, even with the example of Louis Faraakhan and Jesse Jackson, I kind of didn't expect this moonbattery in Chicago, Detroit or Baltimore, maybe. Tell me again, how this is different in nature, from Salafi& Wahhabi preachers like Messr's Quradawi in Quatar, Buraik in Saudi Arabia, et al. One recalls that Quradawi was one of
the first to preach disaprovingly of Sadat, before the Istambouli hit on him

ben

Maggie
"Obama has a connection with that community, but also obviously doesn't harbor a single 'angry black man' bone in his own body."

"Connection" to that community? He has a lot more than a connection...until we found out exactly what kind of "Christianity" was being espoused in that church Obama was clear that these were the people who "molded" him. He made a big deal out of attending church frequently, but now he has never heard any of this "appaling" stuff? You really buy that?

You are very deluded if you think Obama is not angry. He has a huge amount of righteous anger, the kind people have when they think they are being denied something they are entitled to.
Obama hates the U.S., that's pretty clear, (I know, he loves the U.S. that he wants to change us into), that's not being angry? His wife's statement, "I have never been proud of my country until Obama ran for President"...that's not angry?

Ann

RUSH would call Maggie a "seminar" Obama blogger. I don't believe she is a republican for one minute.

"The ugliness of the way people like you are reacting to this. The willful desire to not even try to understand. The preference for taking him down on what is at bottom a bogus charge rather than taking him on over the issues. All of that makes me want to eat nails rather than vote for your candidate."

Hey, Maggie, do you love America? I doubt it because you sure have alot of animus for people you don't even know here at JOM.

Enjoy the nails.

hit and run

SteveMG:
A perhaps more interesting question is not why did Obama associate with Wright, but why did Wright continue to associate with Obama?

It certainly seems to me that the Obama of today - if he was the Obama of yesterday as well - would be considered by Wright as a betrayer of the black race; or at least someone ignorant of the true injustices done by America and white people.

I was just going to say something like that.

If you go back to the video, and you get to 1:30 -- As Pastor Wright begins railing about how Hillary can't know what it's like to have a cab not pick her up, or to be pulled over because of her skin color, etc...he lets out

I am sick of Negroes who just do not get it!

What is it about Obama that "gets" Wright's message?

Is Obama's...

There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America.

...reconcilable with Wright's America?

Sue

The preference for taking him down on what is at bottom a bogus charge rather than taking him on over the issues.

Funny that. If only they practiced what they preached, Bush might not be considered the devil incarnate. His own personal religion, which is very mainstream, would not be villified. And McChimpy Bushitler might never have been born.

ben

"The ugliness of the way people like you are reacting to this."

Right, Obama's mentor and pastor yelling "Goddamm America" over and over is not ugly. Saying that Aids was deliberately concocted against black people is not ugly. Saying we brought 9/11 on ourselves is not ugly.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Elliott

A toast:

The Chimperor!

steve

I find the comment
"black history is glossed over here"

wait a sec... Feb is black history month.
Has been for a long time.
There is a whole COLLECTION of black history month stamps.

maybe the average Joe doesn't pay much attention to it, but to say that it is glossed over is an overstatement - a big one.

 rojuic

Obama wen to that preacher for 20years. He married his wife there. Took his kids there. He beleives what the prreacher says and they don't like non African Americans. Obama ruined himself getting his State job and money for his wife and house. He doesn't want to be President. He's MLK or whatever, so? These people made money off this stuff. They made political deals. Kennedys did real good. Why would I care? Bill payed everybody a lot. Obama going to make the same deals?????

Obama is gone. He lost. The no feeling he left and everything is okay feeling is there because insanetty. Obama is an impossiblity.

Fat Man

I am so glad that Hillbilly didn't quit while she was behind. This is so much fun.

I am going out to the kitchen to make some pop corn. Any of you guys want a beer?

rk

I have a feeling this exerpt is about as close as we're going to get at the truth. This is from the middle of an interview with the Chicago Tribune. This is Obama trying to deftly handle this situation, by basically saying that he is a transitional figure (as opposed to Wright and Ferraro) and is one who understands the lens through which Wright is talking, even though he disagrees with his statements. This lens being of course that the US was a racist society who oppressed black men with "fierce intellegence", and that he hopes to push America to a different place. Isn't that call triangulation?

Obama: I do think there is an overlap in the sense that there is a generational shift that is taking place and has constantly taken pace in our society. And Rev. Wright is somebody who came of age in the 60s. And so like a lot of African-American men of fierce intelligence coming up in the '60s he has a lot of the language and the memories and the baggage of those times. And I represent a different generation with just a different set of life experiences, and so see race in just a different set of terms than he does, as does Otis Moss, who is slightly younger than me. And so the question then for me is what's my relationship to that past?

You know, I can completely just disown it and say I don't understand it, but I do understand it. I understand the context with which he developed his views, but also can still reject unequivocally. . .

Tribune: You reject his views, you won't reject the lens. Is that it?

Obama: Yeah, exactly. And this is where the connection comes in. I mean, I do think that Geraldine Ferraro, the lens through which she looks at race, is different. She's 70 years old. She's grown up in different times. The Queens that she grew up in is, I'm sure, a different place than it was then. Just as Chicago is a different place than it was then.

Soylent Red

No offense to Obamessiah's sparkly dreaminess, or gooey carmel filling but...

You sound like an "Obamacan" to me. You sound like someone who wants to believe what Obama's putting out. And phrases like "in light of the disastrous last four years" don't exactly sell me on your credentials as "a Republican-leaning Independent."

So let me hip you to a few things...

Obama no more represents a "generation that has turned a page" than the man in the moon. If anything he represents a triumph of form over function, based solely on his skin color and what that represents in identity politics. He is without substance but for his race. If he were a 43-year old white guy from Peoria, running on the same resume, he would have been laughed off the national stage months ago and you would have been deprived of many breathless MySpace moments with your mouthbreathing MTV cronies.

And if you call me a racist, I swear I'll crawl through your screen and, like, take your text messaging privileges away.

As for distinctions between Obamessiah and Hillarity...

Both are liars and con artists. For you to draw a distinction between the two is laughable. Backroom shady graft master vs. the Elmer Gantry of race-based politics. Some difference. Is it better to be hustled by the three-card-Monty dealer or the shell gamer?

Aren't you missing an episode of The Real World while peddling your brand of stupid up here?

Soylent Red

Oop!

Got so cranky I forgot to address that to Maggie.

KSM

"I attended that church for 20 years, and I did not inhale"


Just how dumb does Obama think we are? Why did Obama give $22,000 in 2006 to a church that preaches a message like what Wright preaches? Why did Obama have Wright come and dedicate his new mansion? Why did Obama have a private prayer session with Wright right before announcining his candidacy? And if Obama never heard these sermons, then why did Obama have peripheral quotes from one of the race baiting sermons in his latest book? Quotes that he says he heard first hand?

The gullibility of some people is amazing.

Obama is either dishonest, lacks judgment or both. Either way he is not fit to become President.

Either way it looks really bad.

Rick Ballard

That might be a Red Witch Moby.

Everybody put on their Vizzini hats for a moment - careful about tearing the foil - what's really needed by the "last person of color/gender standing" is 'reaction' on ""right wing"" sites.

More ins and outs than the pleats on an accordion.

Elliott

narciso,

I finally got around to reading Le Carre's latest, The Mission Song. It had some interesting plot twists, but overall I'd say it was uninspired, the kind of work you'd expect from a first time spy novelist drawing ideas from what he's read in the newspapers. Also, didn't you find it odd that, having alerted us to the involvement of sinister Americans, he conveniently sidesteps consideration of the resources, intelligence or otherwise, they are prepared to employ?

ben

Soylent
Heh...you certainly can dot the i's and cross the t's.....

Sue

20 years with Wright. He didn't know. 17 years with Rezko. He didn't know. And he wants us to trust his judgment.

Soylent Red

More ins and outs than the pleats on an accordion.

More ins and outs than a night out with Elliot Spitzer...

Ann

Soylent, I adore your kind of cranky.

hit and run

15 years with Michelle. He knew.

Porchlight

More ins and outs than the pleats on an accordion.

Funny you should say that. I'm currently sitting within five feet of four different accordions (my husband's). The bellows are blown out of three of them (meaning there are holes in the pleats, so the air can't blow through properly).

There's a metaphor in there somewhere.

Sara

Obama: "I Don't Need Mr. Keyes Lecturing Me on Christianity. That's Why I Have a Pastor" (Video)

Yep, I particularly like this part of his pastor's teachings:

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible, for killing innocent people,”

Ann

Hit,
I agree. I think you can tell alot about a person by their choice of their spouse and friends.

narciso

Le Carre's lost his compass, and much of his literary style, some time ago. He wasn't that way with Tinker, Taylor, although by the time of the "Little Drummer Girl" a loveletter to the likes of an Ali
Salameh, Black Prince of the Black September ;he's clearly lost it. Daniel Silva's first Gabriel Allon novel, The Kill
Artist revisited the material, with more
authenticity, a decade and half later. Silva used to be predictably pro-Pales-tinian, however, his latest work, the Secret Servant, despite the false Iraq War
tie, was panned by the Times for being too
wordy (too cognizant of the jihadist threat) The Secret Pilgrim, which sought to equate the KGB and CIA efforts. Now he seems to mimic the rationalizations of his Philby manque, Hayden, about Britain as an American puppet after Suez, and the impossibility of revolution. His post cold war work with the Night Manager,(what was that about?), The Tailor of Panama,
&Constant Gardner (pharmaceuticals are evil, interesting it takes place in Barry Dunham's Kenya) just goes progressively For what it's worth, B.R. Myers in the Atlantic took a scalpel to his second to last work, Absolute Friend's; without use of anesthetic (the only amusing detail about that turgid piece of agitprop, is that the encomiums to Roy, Chomsky, Klein, et al are voiced by a character that later turns out to be a CIA provocateur)The trick in the Night Song is how he tries to shoe horn the CIA as the villain in that Boschian landscape; and notably fails at it. His latest project, as previewed by the Times, has a young Muslim man in Hamburg, mistaken for a terrorist (why they could never be right about. . .) What pulishers will green light, just surprises me, more and more.
Take "Human Smoke" the latest from early BDS sufferer/ assasination fantasist, Nicolson Baker, which literally reads like
the delusional pap of Joan Collins character in that Star Trek episode, "City
on the Edge of Forever" whose pacifist movement leads to the Nazi victory. Baker, really doesn't like Roosevelt and Churchill,
who haven't figured that "war is not good for children and other living things" Even the Times main reviewer, still dumb founded
that Baker didn't get the point. My local
fishwrap gave it a qualified thumb up, even
labeling the operation again Rashid Ali's Iraq, one of the debacles.

vnjagvet

I am suspicious. Remember the old "I question the timing" problem?"

Why did ABC take up the Wright cudgel full bore? Maybe along with newt's breath and bee tongues the Red Witch's brew has intended to mix a full set of Wright DVDs in her brew only if necessary at just the right time.

And what better time would there be than before Pennsylvania after barely winning Ohio and Texas, and failing to make up delegate ground on BHO?

Just sayin'.

vnjagvet

Too many brews in there. Can't edit worth a **** at this hour:>)

M. Simon

Pick it off the floor after chasing it around the room.

The Obama balloon has popped.

JM Hanes

Sue:

20 years with Wright. He didn't know. Not present. 17 years with Rezko. He didn't know. Not present.

Fixed it. :)

Uncle BigBad

Ben

Your reference to Clinton's draft board letter not knocking him out of the race. . . .

Remember, he received only 43% of the vote in 1992. Ross Perot put him in the White House both times.

I'm concerned that a spoiler (Huckabee) might jump into the race to assure a Dem win. I don't know what the deadline would be, but I won't relax until we're well past that possibility.

ben

Uncle BigBad

I dont think Huckabee will run, he and McCain actually get along. I don't see any major threat on the right....but Hillary and Obama have to worry about Nader and Cynthia Mckinney...

Maggie

Reading through and replying:

Paul Zrimsek: Snark is so fun. But not very helpful at the end of the day.

Sue: I actually would have been fairly satisfied to vote for McCain. I'm all about repudiating the Republicans for their excesses, so the only way to get my vote was to nominate the guy who bothers the establishment. That said, I don't think he's any kind of a prize. I'm not under any illusions that most of you folk like him. But I do suppose you'd much prefer him to anyone the Democrats select. And as of today, I wouldn't much want to give you even that satisfaction. I'll get over it, probably. My disdain for Clinton runs very deep.

Bill Peschel: Thanks for a thoughtful reply! But I don't think we need to be a mind reader on this. He said as much yesterday in his CNN interview. I suspect he's groping his way towards how to articulate it more clearly in a climate that is at the moment Very Very Hostile and which doesn't seem, at the moment, to be able to get past the outrage of what they saw. And as he himself said today, of course people would be outraged if all they knew about the situation is what they saw on those tapes. Thing is, that's just not the whole story about that church. It doesn't take much time on the internet to figure that out. Wright's Audacity of Hope sermon really is lovely. I've read a couple of others that are sold Christian sermons -- with more scriptural depth than Catholics usually get to hear in their homilies. (I'm Catholic). It's not surprising that there's a strand of anger in a church like that. But it's plain from everything Obama has said, written and done that the anger isn't the attraction. It's the community, the faith, and the hope. Sorry to run on. Bottom line: look at the situation with an open mind and you'll find that it's not as simple as a bunch of African Americans ranting about whitey every Sunday. Far from it. The attraction of Obama is that he offers the hope of a way forward -- one which keeps the goodness of that community but moves past the anger that keeps that community outside of the mainstream of America.

ATM: I think it would be hard to elect a president who has the bit of edge that Michelle Obama undoubtedly has. The attraction of Obama himself is that he really doesn't seem to. (It helps that he's actually not been formed by the African-America community until his association with TUCC -- long after his basic identity was laid down). But it doesn't bother me in a first lady. We put up with HRC as the first lady, and I don't see how this could be any worse. And I rather doubt that Michelle's going to inflict herself on us in the years after Obama's presidency. Look -- I'm an academic, and there just IS an issue for Blacks. She's been formed by that. It's not a huge deal, and I don't think she has a virulent kind of anger. Just the edge that comes from being in the minority all the time.

Sue: Obama gave up a high-paying career to do community work. He attached himself to a community. He found faith in that community (something which no Christian should take lightly). He shouldn't repudiate them lightly. But that doesn't mean that he's taken onboard their anger. He hasn't had the same experiences as they have and he's obviously aware of how counter-productive the anger is.

Republican-leaning because deeply Catholic and the Democrats do their level best to keep people like me alienated. But Catholic all the way down, and so not happy about the militarism. I can live with a lot of other stuff. But the corruption and incompetence this time around trumps other concerns. Clinton really is never a temptation. Not on any level. Obama, OTOH, is. He's pro-choice, of course. But read his keynote address to Call to Action in the Summer of 2006. It's a serious engagement of deeply religious voters. And its spoken from his own faith, which is obviously real for him. (Or of it's not real for him -- he does the best imitation I've ever seen). And it seeks to open up the conversation in new ways. And that seems like an improvement on the current situation. Also, speaking as a theologian, I'd say that it's a speech with more substance than one would expect from a politician. I was inclined to him anyway (process of elimination: No Repub + NO HRC = Hello Obama). But that speech has made me a bit more of a fan.

SteveMG: Maybe Wright sees that the community needs a way forward, but can't get there himself? A bit of research will show you that there's more to him than just hate.

Sbw: See above on faith/politics. He's got good advisors, but I'd like to see more creativity from him on economics. The fact that he's obviously able to think outside of political stereotypes on the faith issue gives me hope (ha ha) that he can be that creative with econ. His speeches show that he understands self-reliance is a part of it. And his campaign is run bottom-up, which I take to be a sign that he gets that top-down isn't the best way to get things done. But I could wish that he's break more clearly from the standard left line on this stuff. I don't see him actually pushing the country hard left on policy. It doesn't fit with his modus operandi. But I could be wrong.

Porchlight: After cursing for months with the lesser of two evils thing? It'll be a choice between not voting and voting for McCain. It depends on how angry he makes me; and how ugly things get over on this side of the blogosophere and for how long.

BTW: I voted for Bush twice. Though the second time was extremely unpleasant.

Ben: I've conceded that Michelle has an edge. But show me anywhere where you saw that edge in Barack. I get why you'd oppose him on his policies. He sure as heck isn't a Republican. But part of the thing I would love our country to get away form is the idea that we need to demonize people just because we disagree with him.

Ann: I did feel bad about getting so angry. My bad.

Thanks for all your replies. Talking is always better than yelling.

Anon

Soylent-

I think you're hip to her dope...

I like this paragragh here-

It would seem to make the GE a wild card. I'd have thought that Clinton's negatives would have made it difficult for her to win in November. But she's just clever enough that she might figure out a way to capture the voters who are angry at the OTT reaction from you guys. Indeed, she has remained pointedly quiet. And while some of the Clinton blogosophere is too stupid to shut up, other parts have quickly doped out that graciousness is the best policy here.Funny if she's the one that walks away the winner here. I don't want to see her win dog catcher let alone the presidency. But if she does, I'll console myself with the thought that you guys got your ox gored. I'll enjoy that part of it.

My this is chock full of Republicanese!

And you gotta love the shut up, or you're stupid-persuasiveness don't ya?

That's got Democrat nannner nanner technique written all over it.

Anon

Maggie

Also, speaking as a theologian

Oy! Wow how thoughtful of you and educated to wish people would SHUT UP and stop talking about religion, and lovely the ox gore sentiment.

Speaking of which maybe Al will swoop in and save you from yourselves during the convention if he can find an ox big enough to ride in on that doesn't emit too much methane.

Topsecretk9

Like I said earlier, Spitzer did not resign just because of the hookers

Roy Mustang

I would disagree with the assertion that Obama does not have a racist bone is his body. Obama is certainly no Farrakhan/Wright but he isn't Jesus incarnate either.

Obama had issues with his white mother and his mixed heritage.

"I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites"

In Obama's first memoir, “Dreams from My Father,” he wrote that he once fell in love with a white only, but pushed her away because he did not want to assimilate into the "white" world.

His worship of his father who abandoned him when he was less than 3 years along with his willingness to allow this racist Wright to become his mentor and father figure adds another layer of complexity to his story.


Topsecretk9

Oh, and this one's weird, apartment?

ben

" But show me anywhere where you saw that edge in Barack. I get why you'd oppose him on his policies. "

What policies? This guy is the emptiest suit ever to run for President. He has no policies. What he has is vague feel good speeches and vapid "let's talk to everybody" rhetoric.

And while we could only suspect it before, now that we know what he really believes in through his mentor and pastor, we see he is just one of the "America haters" so common among the loony left.

Frankly, I think those tapes have killed his chances in the general election. Watch them again and think if you want your President to think those are acceptable ideas.

ben

"It's not surprising that there's a strand of anger in a church like that."

Hahahahhahaha! A strand of anger.....Goddamm America, the 9/11 chickens have come to roost, Aids was invented to kill black people...

Imagine if it was real anger!!!!!

Maggie

Ben, the notion that Obama doesn't have policies is a total meme. Have you listened to the endless droning debates? He has a principled argument for why it's better to not mandate universal coverage (contra Clinton); etc. etc. etc. But I wonder if there is truth to the meme this much: Clinton thinks that government is nothing BUT policy. Which is why she's going to be a disaster as a president. Obama knows it's about more.

See, what's *really* scary is that while Clinton has insanely high negatives, McCain has some drawbacks that are going to hurt him bad in the GE. He's old. And when he talks, he sounds old. And there's the general mood to boot the Republicans. And the economy is going to be the issue -- and although it's a total lie, Clinton will be able to sell herself as the policy wonk who has expertise on the economy. What she will really be selling is that we had good times during the Clinton era. McCain has nothing to counter with on this.

Me, shuddering.

Oh -- and just as a friendly warning. She plays very hard ball. Has learned much from Rove. McCain's temper will suddenly bubble up in the media at inopportune times. Old and a bit unstable. She'll be betting that can trump her own negatives. And she'll use the "swiftboating" to deflect the very real charges that come at her on all her various scandals. She's a cockroach, and as hard to kill.

ben

"Ben, the notion that Obama doesn't have policies is a total meme."

He has ZERO policies...of course, his website has position papers copied from other people (as are his speeches we found out too), but positions are not policies.

Elroy Jetson

Good one Ben.
It's all about the content of the character and not the color of the skin.
We should not have a lower standard for black leaders than any others.
Therefore, an angry, paranoid, anti-American, anti-white, anti-Semitic rant by a so-called man of God should be judged by its content and not by the color of the skin of the person delivering it.
There are many passages in the New Testament that would have guided Rev. Wright away from this kind of preaching. He choose to ignore them.

ben

"What she will really be selling is that we had good times during the Clinton era."

What good times???? The economic recovery was inherited from the first Bush administration. Clinton's 8 years were a series of political and personal disasters. More people went to jail, were indicted, resigned than ever before in history. Clinton was impeached, later disbarred. Only a rabid Democrat wearing blinders could think of the Clinton years as good times unless you were a trial lawyer.

Elroy Jetson

One more point.
Is Hillary silent on this issue because she knows that, in the past, she has been invited to preach to congregations in black churches whose pastors have employed similar rhetoric? Tactical approval on her part perhaps?

ben

"Is Hillary silent on this issue because....."

I think she knows the damage is done.

Damon

Obama has subjected his children to this hate America indoctrination since they were baptized. I bet they can quote it chapter and verse. The damage done to the psyche growing up with nothing but a negative narrative about your country and your lot in life is terrible.

There is an eerie parallel to the Palestinian death cult that teaches their children to love death over life from day one.

Imagine out of the mouths of babes echoing from the oval office. God damn America.

ben

If Obama wins the nomination that "Goddamm America" is going to stick to him like superglue.

Maggie

Ben, *you* may know that the prosperity of the 1990's was nothing to do with Clinton. I know that the prosperity of the 1990's was nothing to do with Clinton.

What I'm telling you is that she's going to sell it that way. And I'm betting she'll make that sale. Cause we operate under this mythology that Presidents have something to do with how well the economy functions under them. Not fair, but it's how it works.

The problem with just shouting down other people is that you forget that you need to actually persuade people who disagree with you. On the issue of Clinton and the economy I happen to agree with you (purely random chance, since we disagree on everything else). The general voters don't. Best way to predict a national election is to look at how the economy is going. The economy is apparently heading for its worst recession in a generation. That's a disadvantage for the incumbents. Particularly so in this case, cause Hillary is going to snake oil on this - policy yadda yadda on the one hand, and invocation of prosperity in the 1990's on the other. Start thinking about how to counter that. It's a problem for your guy -- you know, the old, inarticulate one who has already conceded that he doesn't know much about the economy.

Sara

Maggie, what is the more in your statement?

Clinton thinks that government is nothing BUT policy. Which is why she's going to be a disaster as a president. Obama knows it's about more.

MayBee

etc. etc. etc.

Oh, I love that as a description of Obama's policies, and a refutation of the idea that he doesn't have any. He does! They are etc etc etc.

Anyway, Maggie... you, shuddering.

MayBee

Tops- that is so interesting about the consultant and the apartment.
Keep posting what you find.

glasater

Maggie--You've convinced me. Hillary should not be president at any cost.

I'm just afraid that if Obama were elected--he would run into the bureaucratic buzzsaw that GWB did.

TomH

When you put the nasty comments together with the picture on .. arg they don't have permalinks, tab down http://www.moonbattery.com/ I think you come up with a presidential candidate that doesn't like America too much. It will certainly be a delimma for American Jewish people who lean left.

davod

Obama's books might be interpreted differently now we know the values of his mentor.

"I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites"

Was he thinking of his Pastor's theology of Africa, and Africans first, when he wrote this.

His reasons for not wearing a flag on his lapel (I think they were - you don't need a flag in your lapel to be a patriot), might also be questionable considering the views of his wife and his mentor.

Syl

Just want to say that I agree with what Maggie is saying re the generational thing. I don't think Obama shares Wright's views, and is probably so used to hearing him speak a certain way that it just goes by without much notice.

Obama neither rejects nor condemns nor repudiates Wright--he simply shrugs off the 'offensive' stuff and otherwise embraces the man and the other qualities he may possess.

This tolerance, empathy, and loyalty I don't really have a problem with in him as a person. And I think he really believes that he can be a uniter because of this understanding he has of the various elements within the AA community.

However, I don't think this translates to the larger picture of America. And Obama's lack of understanding of how Wright's words can be so offensive to the rest of the country shows naiveté? poor judgment? lack of experience outside his own world?

He essentially expected the rest of us to tolerate views that are so extreme, so hateful, so jarring that we physically recoil from them. (Look, I'm not a person who embraces outrage. I think outrage is mostly fake. But I gasped at some of Wright's rhetoric.)

And the simple fact that Obama did not get this--did not distance himself utterly from Wright a year ago--somehow believed it did not matter to the rest of us or wouldn't come up--means he is not fit to be the President of all of us.

I disagree with Hannity, though, and don't think Obama should lose his Senate seat over this (as if). Perhaps he would become a fine Senator. Or go even further in Illinois politics. But President? No. No.

(And this without even mentioning Rezko.)

Jane

My my my you kids were up very late. It must be all those "republican leaning independent" academics who can finally explain to us what BO stands for. So far I've learned that he really does stand for something, really, we just aren't high enough on the food chain to find out what. It's that "leaning independent" part that give one the keys to understanding, I guess.

Well it's Sunday. What do you think Jeremiah Wright wants to talk about today?

Sue

He shouldn't repudiate them lightly.

But he did. At the first sign of trouble. First when he dis-invited him to appear at his announcement for president and again on every cable news show he could find on Friday night. Including Fox.

But the corruption and incompetence this time around trumps other concerns.

What corruption are you referring to? Whose incompetence specifically?

If I was a republican leaning independent, the last thing I'd want to do is give the democrats all three branches of government. In fact, if I was a republican leaning independent the least thing I'd want to do is give either party all three branches of government.

I know Obama gives a good speech. We've all acknowledged his oratory skills. They are wonderful. When scripted. He doesn't do so well when he has to go it alone. We've all watched the debates. Heck, we have the best people on the web live-blogging them for us. There is not enough difference between Obama and Clinton to shake a stick at, on the policies.

What Obama has asked us to do is trust his judgment. When others lacked the judgment to make the right decisions, he has said, he made the right decision. He alone has the judgment we are looking for. How do we determine if that is indeed true? We look at his record. Thin. And what is there is very left leaning. Where else do you look when you don't have a record to assess his judgment? His personal life. The people he associates with. The people who mentor him. He has failed twice in that regard. And when needed, he drops them to further his political career. Beyond great oratory skills, the man is an empty suit. I personally would choose Hillary over Obama to be president, if they were the only two choices available.

Nothing to date has shown Obama is willing to unite the country. Hillary has voted across the aisle on major issues. She has tracked left to win the nomination. She'll go back towards the center if elected. Center is the only way to win in the general. Obama is not going to track towards the center. He doesn't intend to reach out to me, a conservative. He wants me to reach out to him, a liberal. And with all three branches of government in their pocket, a republican leaning independent would be a little worried about his judgment.

rhodeymark

I think it is time to take the muzzle off of Michelle O and find out what she thinks about this - unfiltered, of course. Even if Barack was sincere, the fact that he wakes up next to a Wrightbot every morning is a large call for Chuck Barris to "Bang a Gong".
(apologies to Marc Bolan)

Syl

You've got a point, rhodeymark.

I was wondering if Michelle had been muzzled. Not a peep.

Jane

It will be absolutely fascinating to see how the Sunday Talk shows deal with the Messiah's pastor. Or maybe that should be if they deal with it.

Sue

She plays very hard ball. Has learned much from Rove.

Haven't you heard? Rove is working for Hillary. It's all hush-hush though.

Rove. You magnificent bastard. You taught Hillary to play hard ball while still in Texas. Because everyone knows Hillary didn't know how to play hardball before you taught her. Magnificent is not strong enough. It will have to do this early in the morning.

Jim Miller

Maggie - I will take you at your word and believe that you are what you say you are. But I will give you a question to think about: What kind of man is simultaneously a good friend of fixer Tony Rezko and Reverend Jeremiah Wright? (I think a very strange man, which is why I have been building a series of posts under the title, "Strange Obama".)

And if I may make a small suggestion: Before you call the last four years "disastrous", you might want to take a second look at the evidence. For instance, though it has drawn little attention, we have had excellent productivity gains since 2001. It would be wrong to give the Bush administration all the credit for this, or even most of the credit, but it would also be wrong to give them no credit.

(I assume you know why productivity gains are so important.)

I could add half a dozen examples without much effort, but that would take us too far from the topic.

anonymous

I wonder if there is any really enterprising reporters with any understanding of churchs in America out there? I grew up in a rural church much smaller than Sen. Obama's and for at least the past three of decades (30 years) we've been recording sermons for our shut-ins. That means that if Rev. Wright has more than a few instances of the incident that Fox News reported on, then those have been recorded. In addition, for the larger metro churches, they will occasionally broadcast their sermons on radio or TV. So if the Rev. Jeremiah Wright has a tendency to go off, then it should be well documented.

PaulL

Let's do some Clintonian parsing of the New York Times 2007 piece:

****[Obama] has said that he relies on Mr. Wright to ensure “that I am speaking as truthfully about what I believe as possible.”****

Speak truthfully only as much as possible. When speaking truthfully would be problematic, lie.


****“If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me,” Mr. Wright said with a shrug. “I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen.”****

Pretend to distance himself for public consumption, but remain close privately. Why would you give someone a head's up a year in advance if you actually loathed his views?

Paul Zrimsek

It depends on how angry he makes me; and how ugly things get over on this side of the blogosophere and for how long.

So, then: Obama isn't responsible for Wright but McCain is responsible for Maguire?

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but one excellent reason for judging a presidential candidate by the company he keeps is that, once elected, the company he keeps is going to be running the country. If the people who end up running the FBI or the IRS have even a fraction of the angry bones that Wright has, it's going to be cold comfort knowing that their boss doesn't.

royf

Maggie

I have always considered myself a independent, even though I have never voted for a Dem Presidential candidate. I have vote both ways in State and local elections.

But the Democratic party has totally changed over the last few decades, their vision for the USA isn't one I can believe in nor is it in the best interest of this country. Socialism and nanny state policies will be the ruin of this great country not its salvation.

I don't care for many of McCain's positions but to me the bottom line is this. Any Presidential Candidate who doesn't understand the threat of Islamic Fascism and agree that it needs to be fought against on every level including "and hopefully confined to" the Middle East just isn't someone I could ever support.

The Democrats have convinced this independent that they have only partisan interest in mind, Social engineering and identity politics aimed solely at building a large base of voters who are completely dependent upon the government tit. That is the only logical conclusion I can see, The road the Democrats want this country to walk down has be tried in many other countries and it always fails. Why should that course be taken by this country.

hit and run

Sue:
Rove. You magnificent bastard.

Well that does it. No more sleeping in for me. I wanted to make that line.

A Republican leaning independent who loathes all things Clinton thinks Hillary learned her hard ball ways from Rove.

Riiiiight....

royf

Yeah hit, Maggie maybe a independent but she certainly knows all the Dems buzz words doesn't she. My suggestion to her would be to come here more often and read instead of listening to the MSM. This website is one of the best for reasoned debate, she might actually learn something.

kim

Been a pretty good four years, honey, if you'd sense to see.
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