MoveOn Wants To Move On

MoveOn.LOL wants to move on past its opposition to the war in Afghanistan.  This is in the news becasue Hilary was caught on tape denouncing the MoveOn wing of the Democratic Party; the admirable and always readable Hilzoy of Obsidian Wings sends us to the Huffington Post, where a Celeste Fremon bashes Hilary and boosts MoveOn:

In a statement to The Huffington Post, MoveOn's Executive Director Eli Pariser reacted strongly to Clinton's remarks: "Senator Clinton has her facts wrong again. MoveOn never opposed the war in Afghanistan, and we set the record straight years ago when Karl Rove made the same claim.

I am pretty sure I don't want to track the evolution of the MoveOn position, but an earnest scrivener at MyDD ran down the same Byron York column I did, and that column makes the case that MoveOn did in fact oppose the war in Afghanistan (Rove had said "In the wake of 9/11, conservatives believed it was time to unleash the might and power of the United States military against the Taliban; in the wake of 9/11 liberals believed it was time to submit a petition.", so you can imagine the sensitivity.)

MyDD closes with a plaintive plea:

If there are further developments specifically regarding moveon.org's support or lack thereof of the Afghan theater, feel free to append. 

OK, let me append this - below is a screenshot of a ListServ web page dated Sept 18, 2001.  The text is this:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brigitte Fleeman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:58 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: continuing madness
>
>
>
> Considering the spirit of the dialogue on this list, some of
> you might beinterested in joining the following petition or
> contribute with other means
> of help to promote a "breaking the violence cycle" solution:
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> "Although our leaders are under tremendous pressure to act in the
> aftermath of the terrible events of Sept. 11th, it's important to
> let them know that we support justice, not escalating violence,
> which would only play into the terrorists' hands.
>
> I hope you'll join me in signing an online statement of support
> for "Justice, not Terror" at:
>
>    http://www.moveon.org/justice/
>
> Thank you.  Your participation could really make a difference --
> it's vital that we all speak up now, before it's too late.
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> Brigitte
>
> An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
>                         Gandhi
>
> Using violence to stop violence only creates twice the violence.
>                         David Icke
>

Sounds antiwar to me, and that looks like a MoveOn web address.  Also, like a petition, currently available here via Wayback.

Now, the obvious reconciliation would be that, although MoveOn initially hosted the "peace" petition, they eventually adopted a peace through strength approach to the Taliban.  That would mean that Rove was right and Hillary was wrong.  Whatever - how great is it to see Hillary adopting Karl Rove's talking points? [Link to unconvincing MoveOn response.]

Comments

[Topsecretk9]

TM - the petition"http://www.moveon.org/justice/" was archived Sept. 25, 2001 on wayback machine

Here is the proposed statement

YOUR STATEMENT LETTER

TO: (your representatives)
FROM: (your name and email)
SUBJECT:
Justice, not Escalating Violence
__________

Dear Representative,

To combat terrorism, we must act in accordance with a high standard that does not disregard the lives of people in other countries. If we retaliate by bombing Kabul and kill people oppressed by the Taliban dictatorship who have no part in deciding whether terrorists are harbored, we become like the terrorists we oppose. We perpetuate the cycle of retribution and recruit more terrorists by creating martyrs.

(Your personal note)

Please do everything you can to counsel patience as we search for those responsible. Please ensure that our actions reflect the sanctity of human life everywhere. Thank you.

Sincerely,

(your name)
(your address)

[MayBee]

Great find.

[Americaneocon]

Nice posting!

[SteveMG]

At the bottom of the petition, we see that:

The "Justice, not Terror" campaign is brought to you by MoveOn.org (tm).

Justice, not terror?

From what I can ascertain, the "Justice, not Terror" petition ran from September through December of 2001.

I.e., it wasn't online for a brief time.

[Tom Maguire]

Very nice, thanks.

[Danube of Thought]

So Ms. Celeste Fremon is now shown to be peddling a provable falsehood. Is there any way to call her attention to it?

[Ranger]

Hey guys. You are going to spoil their game plan. They want everyone to believe that they want to retreat in Iraq so that we can "focus" on Afghanistan. Of course once we are "focused" on Afghanistan, they will immideately start claiming that too is a "quagmire" and demand we pull out. Thus proving that wars can not be won (at least by the US) allowing them to gut the defense budget and use that money to buy more votes with generous "social programs".

[Jeffersonian]

Heh, and the link to the MoveOn petition comes up blank today. Nice airbrush.

[Fred]

They think everything is wikipedia where history can be on the fly. Orwell knew these people.

[Diggs]

And I'm guessing that MoveOn's next statement will be that they never opposed Bill Clinton's impeachment.

[william]

The MoveOn position is that war, like capital punishment, is too extreme and irrevocable a measure for the state to ever undertake. They are against all wars and, if we do happen into one, they are in favor of us losing it. This will teach us a lesson about the futility of war. In the same way they wait hopefully for the state to execute an innocent prisoner so that we can learn about the futility of capital punishment.

[Quilly Mammoth]

After all these years of the blogosphere showing that the loony left lies it's amazing that they still think that they can get away with The Big Lie.

[DanG]

Though it may be a bit off topic, I also couldn't help but notice the quote from David Icke at the bottom of Brigitte's email. It would seem that in addition to Gandhi she thinks well of a man who believes the world is run by a race of shape-shifting reptile aliens.

http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/

[narciso]

Wikipedia is increasing Winston Smith's cubicles at the Ministry of Truth. I check every hyperlink, before using any wikipedia entry. Move On not only opposed action in Afghanistan, but one of their arguments against Iraq, was that troops might be exposed to presumedly Iraqi nuclear weapons. It's a shame that Hillary calling attention to this will probably deep six her campaign; but that's the price of being in a historically, economically,& factually illiterate political party.

[Porchlight]

I wish I had a buck for everyone who opposed Afghanistan at the time we went in and now says they supported it all along.

[Sonic Charmer]

It seems quite possible to me that - after the zillionth use of the "focus on Afghanistan"/"distraction"/"REAL war on terror is in Afghanistan" sleight of hand in their rhetoric against the Iraq operation - many of these "MoveOn" types now in fact sincerely believe they supported the invasion of Afghanistan that they protested in 2001.

[Rick Ballard]

I certainly don't doubt it, Sonic Charmer. The war with Oceania has been going on forever. History will restart again tomorrow at sunrise for the Moveon morons - just like it does on every other day.

[Joe Schmo]

That Karl Rove. He resigned so he could pull his trickery out of the public view. That Rove is the cause of everything.

[ben]

John Kerry just announced that it is seared in his mind that Move.on was not against the War in Afghanistan before it was for it.

[Daddy]

My nutty theory that all DEM VP Candidates will eventually wind up being ostracised by the Party of Inclusion as right wing stooges continues to hold water. First it was the racist right wing stooge Geraldine Ferraro, followed by war-mongering right wing stooge Joe Lieberman. Yesterday TM's post revealed Al Gore being called on the left wing carpet and denounced for insufficient hatred of John McCain, and now today we witness Hillary co-opting Karl Rove's Talking Points. This can only mean (according to my theory) that Hillary will lose the nomination to Obama and wind up being the DEM VP Candidate, as the Left is already fitting her out for Neocon adjectives. Welcome to the VRWC Hillary. Its rapidly getting vaster.

[MTF]

So, MoveOn was for the war, before they were against it. How unsurprisingly Kerry-esque of them.

[Fiftycal]

How would you feel as Pres. Obama with Hillary as VP? YOU are the only thing between her and her dream of Presidential power.

[Topsecretk9]

OK, this gets even funnier...the infamous PLuk - "Paul Lukasiak" -- dug this up - Eli Pariser's "9-11peace.org" - refer to TM's Byron York Link to fill in the "9-11peace.org - moveon.org merger"

in any case - the site says:

• We support President Bush's resolve to end terrorism, but not his military agenda for doing it.

• We call on our leaders to promote a far braver discourse than war.

• It is our strong belief that a non-military response is the best strategy for a permanent end to terror. We believe in a non-military response for the following reasons:

• Because justice will be better served. We believe that the perpetrators of these crimes should be brought to justice. As Americans, our conception of justice includes due process and a fair trial. By using the systems of international law and jurisprudence in place, we can best ensure peace, justice, and freedom worldwide.

• Because a war on terrorism is likely to increase terrorist activity at home, not just overseas. Indiscriminate killings of Afghani citizens or other innocent citizens of the globe will achieve nothing but death

• Because there are many concrete measures, other than an indiscriminate war, that we can take to respond to September 11's acts of horror.

• Because a non-military response can help to cure the disease of terrorism rather than its symptoms.

...This site created and designed by Eli, and sponsored by Moveon.org.
Sincere thanks to our host, Capital Internet for their generosity.

just a few example...but it really sounds like they were pro-the Afghan war to me! /sarc

Anyway, Paul Lukasiak left the link
getting all up in Jay Rosen's grill on "the source" of the Hillary move-on tape

full circle. All very amusing.

Karl at Protein Wisdom post about this and the amusing part PLuk plays here - and don't miss Maybee in the comments for the cliff notes version of this saga

[SukieTawdry]

Oh, they all pretend today to have been in favor of the Afghan war, but in fact none were. I remember it well. There was a lot of talk about breaking the cycle of violence and violence begetting more violence and how we couldn't allow ourselves to become like the terrorists. They lectured us on reforming ourselves and our own foreign policies which were in part responsible for the events of that day. They spoke of how poverty and a lack of education can lead to desperate acts. They wanted international arrest warrants issued and the perpetrators brought before the international court (at least that was their Plan A--none whom I asked had a backup Plan B ready to go should Plan A fail). But go in with guns blazing and clean out the nest of vipers and the government that sheltered, aided and abetted them? Hell, no, they wouldn't go.

I don't know why in this day and age they think they can get away with trying to rewrite history under our very noses.

[Ann]

Tops,

That first link comes up "Not Found".

I think you and Maybee both rock on the second link!

[Ann]

"They spoke of how poverty and a lack of education can lead to desperate acts"

SukieTawdry,

Sounds like an Obama speech, doesn't it!

[Topsecretk9]

Ann

I'll try that again

Link 1 fixed

Link 2 fixed

I hope

[Topsecretk9]

SukieTawdry

They also said that the US Military was not able to deal with the winter conditions in the Afghan mountains -- it would be doomsday in Afghanistan's extreme winter conditions -- this was way back in 2001 when we didn't have global warming.

[Topsecretk9]

ann

I got the links working, but the order wrong - ACK!

[Ann]

Tops,

I hope you work for the CIA or the FBI. You are amazing!

OK, I have to ask: Are you Karl Rove??? :)

[Topsecretk9]

I hope you work for the CIA or the FBI. You are amazing!

No Ann!

Didn't you get the Larry Johnson memo on me?

I'm an undercover Defense Intelligence agent working undercover at Diebold - not the housewife soccer mom.

I'm not sure if I was supposed to having been working undercover for DIA or for Diebold or both or whatever, since Diebold is supposed to be evil it's not clear why DIA would have an undercover infiltrating them since they are supposed to be on the same team...my head hurts again.

But then again Larry said before he decided I was a DIA agent, it was evident I was a junior school drop-out 18 year old who flipped burgers.

[Topsecretk9]

junior COLLEGE drop-out 18 year old who flipped burgers.

[Ann]

Tops,

My grandmother always told me that "People only talk about you when you are "worth" talking about.

I know you are worthy! ::hugs::

[Ann]

JOM is famous again! Watch out for the trolls!!

Tops is the best

[fdcol63]

Are we really suprised that a party that fetishizes "diversity" and "victimhood" is fragmenting into diverse victim groups?

[clarice]

Tops is the best. I don't know how she does that...and so quickly!

[Porchlight]

Topsecretk9, great sleuthing work as usual!

[MayBee]

Tops is the best!

Tops, I am begging you to find some evidence that Obama opposed the Afghanistan war. I know I am obsessed about this, but so far we've not seen one contemporaneous speech he gave about 9/11 or Afghanistan. I have to believe that is for a reason.

Even in his famous 2002 anti-Iraq war speech, he splits some hairs by saying he supported going after those that harmed us (or something like that). The kind of thing the people that supported treating it like an international police action said.

[The Ace]

Michael Moore:

MM: No. The country was attacked on September 11 and 3,000 people were killed. That was not a fantasy. Who did it? I'd like to know. I'd like justice to happen to those who did that. I don't believe it was 19 guys at some Florida dipshit flying school who figured out how to do this. And as soon as we can say out loud who did it... nothing will happen.

Q: Do you have a theory as to who did it?

MM: Yeah. I'll give you a hint. If 15 of the 19 guys all come from one country, and that country's called Saudi Arabia, and you bomb Afghanistan, did we miss? If 15 out the 19 hijackers came from Cuba, do you think we'd bomb Bolivia? I don't think so. But we can't bomb daddy's oil buddies, can we? I wish that aliens from outer space could come and clear it up for us. If we could just see through their eyes how bizarre we are... Usually it's larger groupings called nations that attack each other like that. America's biggest enemy is itself - I wish we'd focus more on that.

More Moore,

"Declare war?" War against whom? One guy in the desert whom we can never seem to find? Are our leaders telling us that the most powerful country on earth cannot dispose of one sick evil f---wad of a guy? Because if that is what you are telling us, then we are truly screwed. If you are unable to take out this lone ZZ Top wannabe, what on earth would you do for us if we were attacked by a nation of millions? For chrissakes, call the Israelis and have them do that thing they do when they want to get their man! We pay them enough billions each year, I am SURE they would be happy to accommodate your request.
...
But do not declare war and massacre more innocents. After bin Laden's previous act of terror, our last elected president went and bombed what he said was "bin Laden's camp" in Afghanistan -- but instead just killed civilians. Then he bombed a factory in the Sudan, saying it was "making chemical weapons." It turned out to be making aspirin. Innocent people murdered by our Air Force.

I'm not sure if Moore has any official relationship with Moveon, but they did sent out "action alerts" to get their members to see his propoganda pieces.

[Topsecretk9]

Hey you sillies...I didn't do anything. I just plugged in the url TM found into wayback and then just was keeping tabs on the Jay Rosen - Pluk slug fest and noticed Pluk found the 911peace.org

So really Pluk deserves the credit on that one. HEH.

[boris]

You make it look so easy. All the great ones do that.

[GHF]

Canada isn't in Iraq but it is in Afghanistan. Predictably the Canadian liberals are complaining about Canada's military involvement in Afghanistan.

[Beldar]

Great post, Tom! D'accord.

To SteveMG: MoveOn.org actually continued making essentially the same online petition that premiered on September 25, 2001, through at least early February of 2003, when they began to focus their efforts on interfering with the then-pending Iraq action.

[Laika's Last Woof]

What can I say, I'm an optimist, I see in the MoveOn flip-flop a situation where being anti-war is so embarrassing former peaceniks feel the need to outright deny beliefs they once loudly proclaimed.
They can't have so completely repudiated their misguided sentiments without achieving some level of enlightenment, and we should applaud their tentative embrace of reason.

Maybe they'll continue their rightward move and embrace the concept of winning the war. Maybe not. I may be an optimist, but I'm not Polly Anna.

[daleyrocks]

In the alternative, given that the Moveon folks are so firm in their memories that they supported the war in Afghanistan, why can't they easily produce some press releases or blog posts evidencing that support? If they claim they supported the war, where is the evidence?

Others have produced evidence to the contrary!

[Barney Frank]

I suspect if the Democrats are unsuccessful in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq we will presently learn that MoveOn was on board for Operation Iraqi Freedom from the get-go as well.