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April 17, 2008

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Danube of Thought

Sheer, arrogant condescension.

Publius

Prof. Bartels took the words right out of my mouth. If you want to see 'bitter' go look at the comments over at Daily Kos.

sbw

Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain... You are not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

paul

"people of modest means and limited education are not fixated on cultural issues"


'limited education'
2004 election demographics based on education?

Kerry won hs drop outs-50-49(4% of total vote)

He also won post graduates 55-44(16% of total vote)

Bush wins hs grads-52-47(22%)
Bush wins some college-52-46(32%)
Bush wins college grads-52-46(26%)

So basically, if you have anything less than a doctorate, your education must be 'limited'.

'modest means'
How bout income?

55% of 04 voters made more than 50k(family?) bush wins 56-43.

45% made less than 50k, Kerry wins 55-45.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

The larger implication is that education has very little to do with how people vote when compared to income. Joining education and income to analyze voting trends is an absolute joke.

If democrats want to increase their base, they need American families to become poorer, more hs dropouts, and more post grads.

Huggy

"If democrats want to increase their base, they need American families to become poorer, more hs dropouts, and more post grads."

Imigrants, run the boys out of school, you-name-it studies degrees.

Looks like they agree with Paul and have implemented a plan.

BO has a bittercling problem that has tainted him.

PeterUK

The intellectual arrogance is the reason the Democrats cannot field decent candidates.The more left wing the party gets the less chance of finding the Goldilocks Zone with "normal" candidates.

DebinNC

"Some Astronomers are confident they will find many suitable planets in what they call the “Goldilocks zone”, where conditions are not too hot and not too cold, but “just right” for life. However Prof Watson argues the chances of intelligent life, are low."

That sounds like the city folks view of life, if one could call it that, in the boonies.

Forbes

As someone born, raised and educated in fly-over country--but for two decades a resident of Manhattan--I am never surprised, yet constantly amazed, at how much coastal and urban blue staters presume to know (that they do not) about the people and places which they would never associate or visit. The arrogance, contempt, snobbery, and yes, elitism, on display is mostly laughable, and often sad.

My experience with urban-dwellers is that they possess to a greater degree the very hidebound attitudes they attribute to small town Americans.

An anecdote: Just last night attending the Yankees game, I sat next to two recent college grads. One of them--from upstate, near Albany--told me that his (former) fellow undergrads, from St. Peter's College in Jersey City, said they considered anyone from north of Yankee Stadium in the Bronx, to be Canadians--as if foreigners from another country!

Pride of place is one thing--denigrating other Americans' home, is something else entirely.

DebinNC

Pride of place is one thing--denigrating other Americans' home, is something else entirely.

So right, Forbes. It reminded me of how Southerners, in my experience, are generally welcoming to relocating Yankees as long as they don't insist of constantly talking about how much better it was in Detroit and Youngstown and Newark.

Just for fun: You might be a Yankee if...

ParseThis

Kevin Drum has more. Heh.

paul

There are two themes that the democrats need to make up lost ground upon, but instead they offer nuance...

1. "The democratic party wants ALL americans to make more money."
(offering 'social programs' to offset financial shortcomings is far too nuanced.)

2. Iraq-
Getting out is a ridiculously popular idea. Getting out because 'we are defeated' and 'cannot win' is not.

a modest suggestion would be for the dems to come up with their own, attainable benchmarks, and use it as the reason for withdrawal. Yes, they would have to acknowledge success on the ground, but at least then they would be able to justify their arguments for withdrawal.

Sadly, the Ned Lamont's of the party are obsessed with a message that they believe in-'we are doomed', not one that is palatable to a majority of the country.

A 'staged retreat' without providing that the troops are no longer necessary is once again, too nuanced. If we are retreating, why won't either dem candiate commit to a rapid withdrawal?

McCain 54-46.
McCain in a coma? 52-48.

Sara

Something the "nouveau riche" left will never understand, you cannot buy class no matter how large your bankroll. You are either born with it or not, elitist educations and big money jobs are no guarantee you will ever be anything but trash.

Danube of Thought

The guy who came up with the Goldilocks Zone must have seen the cartoon I saw about 25 years ago captioned "Temperatures in Our Solar System." It was a crude drawing of the sun and nine planets. There was an arrow pointing to Mercury labelled "hotter than hell." An arrow pointing to Pluto said "colder than shit." A third arrow pointed to Earth saying "just about right."

Seemed pretty profound at the time...

E Buzz Miller, Rev Dr

Barry and Michelle's self-induced hyper-remoteness from American Whiteness leads them to act completely shocked when questioned about the insane ravings of that asshole WRight or the sunken chested mewlings of Bill Ayers.

They really don't understand consveratism, moreso than most idiot liberals.

centralcal

Wow. Barack gives Hillary the finger - no, not that finger - the birdy finger and the crowd cheers at a town hall meeting.

What a classless jerk.

Link to video clip in my name.

Porchlight

Holy cow, centralcal! Hard to tell for sure whether it was deliberate, but in combination with his tone of voice it sure looked like it to me. The audience certainly thought it was.

If he did it on purpose, that was a seriously stupid move.

Cecil Turner

That was dumb. Betcha he sees that one again.

centralcal

"If he did it on purpose..."

Oh, he did it on purpose alright! We all know how agile he is with his ET finger on both his right and his left hand. It is perpetually at the ready for any stray itch that might arise.

No, no, no - this non-ET finger scratching his cheek was well thought out and quite deliberate, I think.

ParseThis

You know he felt better after he did it.

God bless Dick Cheney.

Ann

Cent,

Thanks for that link. I have to agree, after watching the video several times, that was sooo deliberate. You cracked me up with your agile ET finger analogy.

ParseThis

better bitter

centralcal

Ann, I woke up this morning singing OH HAPPY DAY, partly because of the Pope's visit, but largely because of last night's wonderful debate.

Today, Barry is just making me sing louder than ever! Pope Benedict's entire message is one of hope. Boy's message of "hope" just pales in comparison.

Pofarmer

not supported by actual evidence.

Like that's ever bothered anyone on the left before.

Ann

Yes, Pope Benedict praised God and American Exceptionalism.

Quite a contrast from last night's debate between Boy and Girl picking scabs.

On another note, I received a campaign request from McCain and I returned it with a comment and no money. I wrote: Make Mitt Romney your V.P. and I will send money.

pagar

"If democrats want to increase their base",

The easiest way for Democrats to increase their base, would be to stop supporting every two~bit terrorist that claims to hate America.

If they don't want to defend this great nation , they could at least keep from running down the ones who are willing to defend it.

centralcal

Ann, I get a call every other night and the mailings - note cards, memo pads, etc. from RNC, Laura Bush, George Bush, et al. I am like you. I do not intend to send one penny until I know who the VP candidate is. I, too, would very much like it to be Mitt.

Danube of Thought

I don't think he was giving the finger. And I think the audience reaction was to his saying that Hillary was "in her element." Don't get me wrong: I don't think the man has an ounce of class in his bones.

Elliott

Centralcal is singing, Clarice is assigning lyric tasks, so I herewith present Ob-am-i, Ob-am-a:

Barack was the president of law review
Michelle was a lawyer in a firm
Barack says to Michelle "I want to marry you"
And Michelle says this as she frets about her perm

Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard
Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard

Barack writes a book and gives a keynote speech
pays the college debts they had incurred
Never listened closely to his Reverend preach
nor to Michelle as she most adamantly purred

Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard
Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard, yeah

In a couple of years they had bought
A home sweet home
With a couple of kids running in the yard
That Rezko and Auchi owned

Unhappy with the climate he finds in DC
Barack seeks higher office he can gain
Michelle campaigns a lot among the bourgeoisie
and on the trail often speaks about her pain

Yes, Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard
Hey, Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard

In a couple of years they had bought
A home sweet home
With a couple of kids running in the yard
That Rezko and Auchi owned

Yeah, unhappy with the way Barack has run his race
Michelle seeks out an office she can gain
Barack stays off the hustings but he does fundraise
and on the trail she still speaks about her pain

Yeah, Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard
Yeah, Ob-am-i Ob-am-a life is hard wah
Ob-am-a how life is hard

And if you don't like guns
vote Ob-am-i Ob-am-a

PeterUK

"Yes, Pope Benedict praised God and American Exceptionalism."

and Michelle Obama?

Porchlight

Very good, Elliott!

Porchlight

Oh, and meant to add, great choice of song. Because what happens to Desmond and Molly Jones in the original? Nothing! They stay "happy ever after in the marketplace." They most assuredly do not get elected President and First Lady.

Elliott

Thanks, Porchlight. It wasn't really a conscious choice, the "Ob-am-i Ob-am-a" has been playing in my head for a while and then a few days ago I thought of the aptness of the kids playing in the yard.

centralcal

Elliott - we are such a muscial group! Love it!

Obamee
Obameye

La la la la la Life goes on.

Porchlight

Third Beatles reference in one day. Okay, I made one of the other two, but it's still good. ;)

Ranger

Survey USA has McCain within 2% of Obama in MA. I wonder what the Superdelegages will do when they realize that nominating Obama puts Mass. in play?

hit and run

DebinNC:
So right, Forbes. It reminded me of how Southerners, in my experience, are generally welcoming to relocating Yankees as long as they don't insist of constantly talking about how much better it was in Detroit and Youngstown and Newark

OK, yes, I have a problem with the damn yankees moving down here.

Actually, to be honest, they make great neighbors.

But once the Giants won the Super Bowl, they've been insufferable.

At least there are no friggin Red Sox fans in the neighborhood.

Jane

Hey! I'm in the virtual neighborhood. Be careful!

hit and run

The only good thing about the Giants winning?

Putting Patriots fans in there place.

Especially the bandwagon fans.

What? Oh, carp Jane is here.

I'm just kidding. Just kidding. All I'm doing is trying to stir the pot. I love Bahstun....more than NYC, that's for sure.

Jane

Come visit Hit, bring the family. I live in a place with historic significance. You would love it!

Elliott

You are incorrigible*, Hit and Run.
_________________
*Under no circumstances consider this a recommendation that you become corrigible.

hit and run

I've been to Boston a couple times and loved it. I stayed in a hotel close enough to Fenway to walk there...so I did...and there was a vendor unloading something from outside left fied, so there was a gate open. I got to go stand on the warning track, ever so briefly, under the green monster.

That really was a lifelong dream of mine.

If the oppotunity presents itself again, I would come back in a heartbeat.

bgates

Elliott, that was fantastic.

Yahoo has the front-page question, "last night's debate 'the worst ever'?" I can only hope debates between McCain and whoever survives Denver make them feel even worse.

Chris

Holy cow! The Pope shows up and delivers Christmas eight months early. Can it get any better? Sorry I asked.

pagar

"and whoever survives Denver"

Will there be a survivor from Denver? Stay tuned for the news direct from the trenches.

MarkO

Headline of the International Herald Tribune:

Obama questions Democratic debate's relevance.

My guess is that later he will suggest there’s no point in an election, either.

chris

You can add race to the list of issues with which bitter, urban, soi-disant elites are obsessed. (They call it "diversity.")

HoosierHoops

The only good thing about the Giants winning?

Putting Patriots fans in there place.

Especially the bandwagon fans.

What? Oh, carp Jane is here

Dear hit..What about the colts fans?
Hey bro.. hope you had a great day on the golf course..what was your score?

Trovos

But there is solid statistical proof that 'liberals' strongly UNDERPEFORM economically, compared to normal people.

Why does everyone think the typical liberal is rich? They typical liberal is certainly poorer than the typical conservative.

hM
Why does everyone think the typical liberal is rich? They typical liberal is certainly poorer than the typical conservative.

Most likely because so many rich famous people are liberal. But if you actually sit down and think about it, it makes sense that in the real world liberals tend to be less well-off; why else would they scream so loudly for the social welfare programs to keep being funded while blasting rich people simply for being rich?

hM

Oh, and for not forking that money over so the poor can continue to be enabled in their laziness.

bgates

Obama questions Democratic debate's relevance.
Everybody else questions Democratic debators' relevance.

Pofarmer

My guess is that later he will suggest there’s no point in an election, either.

Maybe he could go down and help Chavez out.

hit and run

Hoosier:
hope you had a great day on the golf course..what was your score?

Yeah, well, I didn't realize it would be a scramble.

Blech. So I have no idea what my score would have been. I hit the ball really really well.

About 75% of the time after I got the first three beers in me.

It was a great day, though.

No Colts fans in sight.

Trovos

"Most likely because so many rich famous people are liberal. "

Another media ruse that has tricked even conservatives.

Well, of the 400 richest people in America in 2004, 72% supported Bush, and just 28% supported Kerry.

Hedge Fund managers are 61% Republican vs. 29% Democrat. These are people who live in liberal Manhattan or Greenwich, BTW.

Sure, the media tells you about George Soros and Ted Turner. You never hear about the silent majority.

Trovos

Bill Gates and Michael Dell were Bush donors in 2004....

TMF

I dont care what the statistics and data say

Franks book just FEELS truthy

M. Simon

The look on his face. The semi-smirk, the pause, gives it away.

AST

Well, I'll be -er- a religious, gun owner. I've been hearing the unhappiness of liberals over the elitist charge all day. When my son went off to Harvard back in the '90s I told him he was heading into the world capital of intellectual pride. He assured me he knew it, but now he's succumbed, and gets wildly indignant when I tell him so.

The left despises conservatives not because we disagree with them, but because we won't passively submit and accept the government as the source of all prosperity. Our existence, prosperity and ability to refute their beliefs with facts and logic just frustrate the hell out of them.

What is becoming clear is that Obama's remark about small town people "clinging" to their religion (which I do) and their guns (which I don't) was essentially a complaint that these rubes don't understand that the benevolent left are offering them economic bliss, and instead are turning to superstition, firepower and bigotry. They see us as the proletariat trapped by capitalism and they can't understand why we're not rushing to them and thanking them for the freedom they offer us. We don't understand why they think they're not the ones in the cage.

M. Simon

I do not intend to send one penny until I know who the VP candidate is. I, too, would very much like it to be Mitt.

From what I can tell only the RINOs are supporting the party now in its hour of need.

They will own it. Which is good.

These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.

As my friend Eric the RINO says: I have supported the nominee with money and time no matter what. No matter the stand on issues dear to my heart. What is wrong with the so called party faithful?

The Communists are pouring money into Obama's campaign and you will let McCain down because he is not Right enough for you? Because his VP choice is not announced?

As is so often found in the Bible. There are always some who will betray the city out of a sense of pique. Sad to find so many like that here.

Ralph L

So he bought a trailer instead, for barely more money
Hit, why didn't he rent the trailer in NC and drive it roundtrip?

Barry

M. Simon, some of us have principle. The Republican party may be able to take you for granted, but not I. Nominate someone reasonably close to a conservative, and you will get my vote. Nominate someone who doesn't believe in freedom of speech, that thinks government needs to solve the "global warming" crisis, that believes in open borders, and, well, the list is too long. If the Republicans lose, it will not be my fault, it will be theirs.

Ralph L

M. Simon, I suspect we'll all come around in the fall. Right now they want reassurance McCain won't stiff arm them again.

Ranger

Obama now says he doesn't want to do any more debates. ABC should re-run this one in the time slot of the next one if he ducks out.

Sir Barack ran away
He bravely ran away

When scrutiny reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled

Brave, brave, brave Senator Obama...

Tully

As I pointed out four years ago when Frank's book came out, he cherry-picked and even manufactured and misrepresented data to paint Kansas as an economic hell when in fact it had solidly outperformed the nation for the periods he cited.

Which is somewhat beside the point. The entire Frank/Obama hypothesis is that rural voters are going against their self-interest when voting on social issues instead of economic ones. But that hypothesis has two MAJOR bad assumtpions in it. The first is that people should vote economic interest ahead of social issue interests, and that's extremely debateable, especially coming from liberals as liberals do the exact opposite of that all the time in voting for higher taxes to pay for more social engineering.

The second (extremely) bad assumption is that voting Dem is actually preferable when voting one's economic interests. Some of us actually understand that government can't give us what they don't take away first--and that this means taking away from THEM.

hM
Trovos said: These are people who live in liberal Manhattan or Greenwich, BTW.

Sure, the media tells you about George Soros and Ted Turner. You never hear about the silent majority.

Maybe I should have been more specific. When I think rich famous people I think people in the entertainment industry, mostly because if I say anything about some rich businessman like Soros I generally get blank stares. Since it seems like most of America is obsessed about when Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are going to have their next kid or who will be the next sloshed celebrity to forget to wear underwear it's easy to see how people would think most rich people are liberal idealists.

M. Simon

BTW,

Fairly or unfairly Mitt will be tied to the polygamy scandal. We don't need the distraction.

Mark

"If democrats want to increase their base, they need American families to become poorer, more hs dropouts, and more post grads."

Most entities that try to maximize returns on investment aim at the middle of a bell curve.

The Democrats have decided to bet the farm on the tails.

Brilliant.

Bill in AZ

Ranger - dang, another keyboard...

Mark

Trovos, three words re: poor liberals: "third post-doc appointment."

Or maybe "Junior College Professor".

Bill in AZ

Speaking of Soros - prolly for the first time in his life he is praying... praying he can screw around with the dollar and keep oil trading up in the froth for a few more months. Even he knows it peaked too soon, and is going to come crashing down around his ears, and the libs will have nothing whatsoever left to stand on by November. Even in my tiny little town I hear folks in the grocery store say they won't make even simple trips because of the price of gas. When you start hearing that, you know the refineries are beginning to float in unsold fuel products, and eventually the shipping lanes get clogged with tankers drifting aimlessly with no place to offload.

Why, it's so bad that even in my hopeless bitterness, I am actually debating whether to make the long trip to Phoenix to the GunShow this weekend to fondle some guns, some ammo, maybe even some gun tools, reloading equipment, and... and... maybe even buy a gun without a background check while the loophole is still open (whew!, there goes that tingle chrissy talks about).
(yeah, right, while the ATF agent stands there hiding in plain sight taking pictures of the transaction so you can spend the next 20 years either fighting it or in prison).

Topsecretk9

Rather, it is affluent, college-educated people living in cities and suburbs who are most exercised by guns and religion.

Did anyone else hear Rush read the story about the woman who was so excised about her living actions and plight of the earth that she moved to the hicks to find peace? It was diagnosed as Eco anxiety?

Global warming is making bitter clingy progressive weirdo hicks!

ben

"M. Simon, some of us have principle. The Republican party may be able to take you for granted, but not I. Nominate someone reasonably close to a conservative, and you will get my vote."

Hey Barry, wake up and smell the coffee. This isn't about you, its about the USA. McCain was not my choice, but in the real world you don't always get what you want. And now the choice is between McCain and probably Obama. It's the choice between McCain's SCOTUS picks and Obama's. McCain's war on terrorism vs. Obama's meeting with terrorists. It's about taxes, and immigration and free trade and labor relations and the second amendment. It's private vs. socialized medicine. This BS about if Republicans lose it won't be your fault is exactly that, BS. You can take you ball and bat and go home, but the game will still go on.

Walter

Under no circumstances consider this a recommendation that you become corrigible...

Please consider my next footnote an homage to the acknowledged master.

But I'll be hearing that song in my head for the next couple of days.

Cliff

I think the real reason Obama is having problems in small town america is that there is no meat to his statements. The economy was never his strength. He gets his strength from being the anti-war candidate in a year when the democrats are incredibly focused on them.

No one actually sees him as some sort of economic heavyweight.

bgates

Ben, have you ever known a politician to have success berating people into voting for him?

Here's a mild rephrasing of your argument:
McCain was not my choice either, but now the choice is between McCain and probably Obama. It's the choice between McCain's SCOTUS picks and Obama's. McCain's war on terrorism vs. Obama's meeting with terrorists. It's about taxes, and immigration and free trade and labor relations and the second amendment. It's private vs. socialized medicine. If Republicans lose it might not be your fault, but it will be your loss.

There are some fairly good arguments to be made for voting for McCain, and you've made them, but you'll win over more people if you refrain from slighting them.

hcutler

What is scary about Obama's remarks in San Francisco's extremely wealthy fund raising event, was that he felt comfortable in making such and asnine remark and that the super rich elites attending accepted the statement without a comment. No one there had the integrity or consideration for the citizens of this country to protest such a stupid. stupid remark.

M. Simon

Yeah of course you have principles. One of them is to support passively socialized medicine and the abandonment of the Iraqi people if you don't get your way.

Honorable that.

Thoughts from McCain's site on his VP pick

I liked this one:

People like ksmith can go vote the conservative line and see what that gets you. You people that tow the Rush line are irrelevant. Let Rush run for office. He could not get elected dog catcher. Let Dobson run and see how many votes he gets. If you want a conservative or nothing party go ahead and jump because you will be about 10% of the vote and left with nothing, no one in office and crying. The best thing for McCain would be for people like you to sit it out and McCain still win and win big. If that happens you will be useless and without a voice. Yea you can still listen to Rush but no one will be coming to kiss his ring. Think long and hard about what you want because you might just blow your last chance at relevancy.

McCain intends to form a new coalition. On the bus? Or off the bus?

I hear the Constitution Party is looking for votes. Bob Barr - now an ACLU board member - wants your vote. Heh.

M. Simon

And Bob Barr promises you every thing you want except victory in Iraq and victory in November but, you will have your principles intact and can hold your head high.

Well there is always Alan Keyes. Now there IS a winner.

BTW I compromise my principles for every Republican I have ever voted for. I'm still voting straight ticket in Nov.

So why do I stick with the Rs? Because I want to keep jabbing them in the ribs until they notice me. Maybe it is a fools errand. It won't be the first lost cause I have worked for. After all I was once a Libertarian.

M. Simon

As long as I'm the only one here for a while:

The sainted Goldwater had no use for socons and was notorious for lambasting them. It may have cost him the election. OTOH the MSM and LBJ's atom bomb commercial may have helped too.

I do believe McCain could squeak in without the socon vote due in part to crossover Dems. Esp if Obama is the nominee.

I hang with a bunch of Dems at Stop Obama and they are pretty sharp on economics. I don't always agree with them but the conversations are always excellent. I learn stuff.

If 10% of the Ds bolt the party that will make up for the 10% of socons who undervote McCain.

BTW the top story right now at Stop Obama is the middle finger salute.

Danube of Thought

Here's the concluding graph of David Brooks's excellent NYTimes Friday column on Obama:

"A few months ago, Obama was riding his talents. Clinton has ground him down, and we are now facing an interesting phenomenon. Republicans have long assumed they would lose because of the economy and the sad state of their party. Now, Democrats are deeply worried their nominee will lose in November."

pagar

The middle finger salute story is good, but I like

Obama Has Contempt for America.

The Stop Obama people are putting out some good stories.

Jane

Good Morning everyone!

Where on the earth is Barack Obama? And will he convince anyone today that Patriotism is just old style politics and must be changed?

Certainly not anyone here.

clarice

Good morning,Jane.

Soylent Red

You're just being a distraction Jane. And I should know, because it takes one to know one.

Jane

Well it is Friday Soylent. (And a really beautiful spring Friday here) Who better to distract?

Thomas Collins

B_O wants us to stop clinging to patriotism so that we may become citizens of the cosmos.

DebinNC

"Here's the concluding graph of David Brooks's excellent NYTimes Friday column on Obama:

"A few months ago, Obama was riding his talents. Clinton has ground him down, and we are now facing an interesting phenomenon. Republicans have long assumed they would lose because of the economy and the sad state of their party. Now, Democrats are deeply worried their nominee will lose in November."

Here's the introductory graph:

"Back in Iowa, Barack Obama promised to be something new — an unconventional leader who would confront unpleasant truths, embrace novel policies and unify the country. If he had knocked Hillary Clinton out in New Hampshire and entered general-election mode early, this enormously thoughtful man would have become that.

Whoa. Talk about a poor judge of character.
Brooks makes it seem that the campaign has forced the sterling Obama to voice positions he doesn't hold, rather than causing him to reveal long-held positions he hoped to hide until after the election.

Elliott

Walter, you are too kind. You're the lead car. I'm just drafting.

ben

BGates

"Ben, have you ever known a politician to have success berating people into voting for him?"

My point was that people who write about how upset they are they didn't get a "true" conservative, etc. and can't support McCain are not looking at the big picture of what will happen if Obama gets elected, this election is much bigger than our individual whims. If Barry and others won't vote for McCain because I berated or slighted them, as you put it, then I proved my point.

Rick Ballard

"Where on the earth is Barack Obama?"

He got a call at 3AM and now MO can't get him to come out from under the bed. He keeps whining something about "the boogeymen are real" and he just won't stop whimpering.

Axelrod's on his way over with a doctor - they should have him sedated pretty quick - then he'll be ready to be phony thoughtful again.

Danube of Thought

Mornin' Jane.

Ben, I don't think you can berate a guy into voting your way, but in this case I doubt that you can persuade Barry, either. Everybody has his own reasons for the way he votes; I tend to be a loss minimizer, but there are folks who are simply going to stand on principle and vote for their guy regardless of the effect.

Take the Naderites. I would venture that there's not one of them alive who would not have favored Gore over Bush if those were the only two choices, but those who voted Nader in Florida took the presidency away from Gore and handed it to Bush. (The Florida Nader vote, had it gone to Gore, would have given him a very clear win, no recount, no nothing.)

In the 2006 elections, had the Montana Libertarians voted for Conrad Burns instead of the Democrat, the GOP would still control the Senate and Harry Reid would not be majority leader.

I have no idea whether these voters in either case have second thoughts about the outcome, but when it comes to voting, de gustibus non disputandum.

Danube of Thought

I din't read Brooks that way. The "enormously thoughtful" thing was the only complimentary passage in the column.

PeterUK

Well,he ain't no Mason George Bush meets "Edgar the Bug" Brown.

GMax

Brown is a bit of a homely chap isnt he? Is he a Liverpool fan to boot?

Ranger

And the fun continues... Apparently some lefty blogger declared that he no longer sees Hil as a Dem. It looks like a lot of Hil supporters are taking that badly, and that if she isn't then they aren't either. Which, of course, makes it that much easier for them to vote McCain in the fall without feeling like they are 'betraying the party.'

MayBee

This is interesting (via Volkh via Ben Smith):

The state senator that hand picked Obama and introduced him at the meeting at Ayer's house was Alice Palmer:

The exact date is not known, but it was in the second half of 1995, before Palmer’s decision — late in her losing congressional primary against Jesse Jackson Jr. — to jump back into the special election for her state Senate seat. (Her decision produced a rift between her and Obama, who was able to get her thrown off the ballot on technical grounds.)

Obama is cutthroat, that's for sure. He had his own mentor thrown off the ticket.

ben

"but when it comes to voting, de gustibus non disputandum."

DOT, I understand your point about some people voting on "principle" no matter what. But I am not convinced about the Nader analogy. Nader has always had a following among those who see corporate America as the "axis of evil". Gore is closer to that now but did not run on that platform in 2002. A lot of Naderites see Dems and Reps as beholden to corporate interests. But in Barry's case he stated "give me a conservative I can vote for". "Principle" in this case means electing a guy who is 180 degrees opposed to anything a conservative would hope for. So yes, I think you can dispute taste in voting.

boris

IIRC the impetus for the subject was not voting but donating. It seems reasonable to me that donation levels would track enthusiasm and for some people that is lacking at the top of the Republican ticket for the moment.

narciso

I agree that Goldwater was probably more of a libertarian; which was why he was against Social Security, and the TVA; that lost him quite a few votes. His vote against the '64
act; mostly because he was prescient about
where it would lead; despite his sterling record in promoting race relations in Phoenix. They held the fact of his reserve status as Air Force General against him (a bizarre inversion of the 'chickenhawk' trope
today)as an argument to ridicule his stands
on nuclear policy, Cuba, Vietnam. The psychologist's association diagnosed him as a psychotic from afar; they held a trip he
attended in Germany, invited by Gen. Quinn
(Sally's Dad)as proof of a fascist orientation. He has to have have been the most maligned presidential candidate in modern times; that didn't reach the White House; I doubt social conservatives, who were not differentiated at that time; had
any major part in his defeat. In fact, it is surprising he did as well as he did
considering. Of course, we know the backstory of this little saga. Johnson's seating of the segregationist delegation
set the seeds for a firestorm four years down the road. his mishandling of the Gulf
of Tonkin series of incidents would be equally disastrous. But heck, they got Medicare and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting out of it.

PeterUK

I doubt if Edgar the Bug understands human pastimes,he gets on with the other bug people though.
There is a series of picture with Edgar with the three candidates,BHO looking at home,Hillary as if he has just admired her ass,and McCain likewise.Body language is wonderful.

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