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July 23, 2008

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bgates

Simple patriotism/nationalism - Obama's mom wanted her son to be an American like her.
And because she succeeded in the latter, there's no trace of either of the former in him.

Elliott

I believe Kenya did not gain independence until 1963 so he was not a Kenyan national at birth but rather a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies.

Ann

Obama is a fraud even if his birth certificate is not:

"When Wesley Clark, the Democrats' favorite retired army general, attacked John McCain's "qualifications" for the Presidency, especially his military credentials, our watchdog mainstream media seems not to have thought it relevant to point out that Wesley Clark currently sits on the board of another of Soros' groups: The International Crisis Group. Soros, in addition to heavily funding the group, also sits on the Board with Clark, as do some other Obama "people," Samantha Power and Zbigniew Brzezinski. Richard Armitage, the leaker of Valerie Plame's name, is also a member, as is Kofi Annan."

The Bubble of Obama Supremacy

JM Hanes

TM:

It's refreshing to hear someone pointing out how lame some of the anti-fraud squad responses have been! A lot of the rebuttals have been more half-assed than the commentaries. AJ Stata's putatively definitive debunking was such a mess of superficial assertions, assumptions and snark, he finally had to go out and round up an expert witness of his own to opine on his behalf. Ed Morrisey just throws down a strawman, and pronounces the case closed.

Ironically, even the Department of Hawaiian Homelands won't accept the computer generated "Certification of Live Birth" as proof of Hawaiian bona fides. They insist on "additional verification." With the New York Times resurrecting questions about McCain's citizenship on a regular basis, the issue is arguably bipartisan!

Frankly, I don't see why a collection of patronizing, dare I say, mainstream bloggers are so determined to slam the lid on speculation. It's not like the whole 5 blogs working this story are going to blow the election for the rest of us -- even if they take off on one wild goose chase after another till Nov. 5th. And who knows? One of those crazy trails might end up hitting an entirely different jackpot that nobody was even looking for.

One of the most interesting question I've heard is not necessarily even related to the document in the spotlight. Someone wondered if Obama had been adopted by his stepfather and asked if Obama's mother didn't have to renounce her American citizenship when she settled permanently in Indonesia and married an Indonesian. Maybe those questions have already been answered -- but not by Captain Ed & crew.

In any case, even if I didn't think there was something hinky about the Certification, the bizarre way the whole thing has been handled would be enough to set off my antennae. The whole slick website that was rolled out with such fanfare when the COLB surfaced to "Fight the Smears" has had a grand total of 2 puffball updates since then. When the national press can hardly lift an investigative finger, any amateur detective who wants to root around in that muck so I don't have to is fine by me. Go for it!

MayBee

In any case, even if I didn't think there was something hinky about the Certification, the bizarre way the whole thing has been handled would be enough to set off my antennae. The whole slick website that was rolled out with such fanfare when the COLB surfaced to "Fight the Smears" has had a grand total of 2 puffball updates since then.

Amen. It is so weird. One of the updates is simply a chart of people that have worked on other "smears" in the past.

t's not like the whole 5 blogs working this story are going to blow the election for the rest of us

That's the other funny thing. Michelle Malkin will say bad things about McCain to anyone that will turn a television camera on her. Allah seems caught between McCain and Obama. So why is that blog so convinced it is the birth certificate story- and not their anti-McCain bleatings- that will hurt in the election?

FWIW, I don't think Obama was born elsewhere. I'm just with JMH, I think there was just some very high-profile hinkiness going on at the time it was released.

Elliott

Excellent analysis, JMH.

My question: Did the paper use hospital records for birth announcements or did parents send them in (and pay for them)?

If the former, I am hardly overwhelmed.

Elliott

Aside from technical issues, I think the question of what racial categories could appear on Hawaiian a birth certificate needs to be resolved. Also, the trip to Mercer Island and Ms. Dunham's friend's account of it still seem odd.

Seixon

Anyone want to bet that the Democrats don't challenge McCain's eligibility to be president to the Supreme Court if they lose in November?

Jane

Guten Morgen,

If it's Wednesday, it must be Berlin.

I can hardly wait.

Pagar

I just can't understand why the Obama campaign lets this birth certificate issue go on. IMO, there is no chance that a voter will say "He can't produce a US birth certificate, I'm going to vote for him". I think a much more likely thought process would lead a voter to say-"there is a great deal we don't know about this candidate, he hasn't even produced a birth certificate, I'm going to vote for the other guy." It may not be a great number in the end, but I'd be willing to bet that there will be Americans who vote against Obama because of the birth certificate issue.

syn

Whatever the birth certificate says we still have no idea if Obama is real or manufacture by experienced advertising executives.

Plus I don't know which certificate is Reason is talking about, the certificate Kos Kidz posted or has Obama's campaign posted his other certificates.

The thing I found interesting, if there was no problem with the certificate why go to the extreme of hanging a dead bloody rabbit at the door of the questioner.

Sue

I have never thought Obama was not born in the US. I also didn't question the authenticity of the Kos BC. Until JMH saw something hinky. But even then, I don't think they are hiding where he was born. Too many people have seen that birth certificate. School officials. SS people. Driver's license, maybe. For him to try and pull of a scam of this proportion doesn't work for me. What I think, if there is indeed something hinky, is he is adding a father, removing nationality, or something he felt would hurt him. If, and I say if, the Kos certificate is indeed hinky.

Jane

I can only think of one time that I needed a birth certificate. (I can't remember now what for, maybe my passport, I just can remember getting it.) SO I don't think that information is widely disbursed.

My problem is I just don't care about the issue. I think if republicans started complaining that Obama isn't qualified for office (because of the BC) we would have a race war that would not end. Of course I have no objection to PUMA doing it.

RichatUF

JM Hanes-

In any case, even if I didn't think there was something hinky about the Certification, the bizarre way the whole thing has been handled would be enough to set off my antennae.

Warn me when the Rottweilers are loosed.

rrsafety

I'm unclear about Capt. Ed's comment about the Honolulu Advertiser being part of the conspiracy. In my newspaper, the family provides the info. Is it Capt. Ed's view that the hospital provided this info directly to the newspaper?
This might be so back then, but i don't think that is the way it is anymore.

clarice

I believe his point is the paper is contemporaneous and therefore it's unlikely that the info in it was made up to help O in some way today.

mefolkes

Well, we don't know what type of newspaper announcement it was. There have always been two types. One was the succinct public record type, listing a hospital's admittances, discharges, births and deaths. The other was the much more detailed announcement paid for by the family. In any event, the Obamessiah is unquestionably an American citizen by birth, much as that irritates me.

Danube of Thought

Somehow this issue don't blow much air up my dress.

Mornin', Jane.

kim

As Miss Clavell notes, 'Something is not right'. Techdude and Polarik both think the Kos image is a forgery. The otherwise somnolent site, 'Fight the Smears' seems to have been set-up only to fight this smear, which it is doing poorly. Obama has not produced definitive documentation. It smells more and more like a set-up. I predict the real one will show a mild embarrassment that is not shameful, and this message will resonate with the moderates, who will sympathize with Obama over the issue.
=========================================

Jane

Gawd, they just reported that the Iraqi's are not allowed to participate in the Olympics. I blame Barack. That is simply heartbreaking.

cathyf

It still misses what I think are the contemporary issues of competence and character. Ok, suppose the COLB is, in fact, fake but accurate. Why is the Obama campaign putting out a fake document? Are they that stupid? If I vote for Obama, then will those stupid incompetent staffers who can't tell the difference between real and fake documents have jobs in the administration judging the bona fides of Iran, North Korea, etc?

Hey, my concerns are really simple -- all Obama needs to do is to throw StopTheSmears under the bus, and that probably settles things. Obama is already pretty good at that, right?

clarice

Jane, why can't they participate?

Here is something--the Dems again refusing to put pressure on DoD to improve the right of military personnel to vote.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/07/the_soldier_voting_scandal.html>Sara, this looks like something for you

kim

Maybe he set up 'Stop the smears' to create some smears, that he could trump with the mildly embarrassing genuine document. He, himself, can dodge your charge, cathyf, by simply claiming agnosticism about the matter. You watch, he's trying to catch the third wave of post racist revulsion. Something smells to high heaven.
===================================

Dave Weigel

Common sense - US citizenship was highly likely to be more valuable than Kenyan citizenship.

And a birth announcement in the newspaper would have bolstered her citizenship case... how, exactly? If a challenge came up, and there was no Hawaii birth certificate, the controlling authority (I don't know who this would be) would be convinced by a newspaper birth announcement?

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the fact that the Obamas announced their child's birth in Hawaii suggests that their child was born in Hawaii. If there WAS no newspaper announcement, it would have given the COLB Truthers* something to chew over. But there was one, so they invent new theories of how the family was lying or the birth certificate was forged in some way. It's just ridiculous.

At this point the Truthers are relying on the word of a "document expert" named "TechDude" - yes, he won't reveal his name - who's analyzed a low-quality digital document versus a contemporary third-party account of Obama's birth. Snark and sarcasm are the only reasonable responses to these guys. They make 9/11 Truthers look like CSI investigators.

*certificate of live birth

Uncle BigBad

If someone could borrow the actual certificate from Kos, there's a simple way to tell if it's a forgery.

Every laser printer prints a microscopic code on every document it prints that identifies the printer. If the printer is identified as belonging to the Hawaii records office, case closed.

The FBI uses the codes to track counterfeiters.

kim

Dave, you miss the point. Not many believe he wasn't born in Hawaii. Many more believe there is something hinky about the story which Obama won't fix. It's a little like Kerry never wanting to talk about the Swiftie stuff. If they could fix it, they would have done so. So What's Up With That?
=================================

Jane

why can't they participate?

Something about lack of government compliance.

Dave Weigel

If they could fix it, they would have done so. So What's Up With That?

I'd guess the same thing that keeps John McCain from releasing a full report on whether he called his wife the c-word. After a point, responding to rumors gives them media oxygen. It's like the old story about LBJ wanting to smear an opponent by saying he'd had carnal knowledge of a pig. "I know it's not true, but make the sonavabitch deny it!"

My perspective in all of this has been colored by the Larry Sinclair affair. I've found holes in that guy's story, and talked to a Chicago reporter who did real digging and found it baseless. But the fact that no media outlet has run the story "CRAZY CON MAN'S STORY NOT TRUE" convinces a small internet cult that, golly gee, there's a conspiracy to silence the guy. Not true. The media just doesn't live at the whim of crackpots.

Barney Frank

The media just doesn't live at the whim of crackpots.

Dave,

I was with ya right up to that one.

Pagar

I just don't see how an easily produced factual document that should be the absolute bare minimal documentation required to prove one is eligible to occupy the position of President of the US, is comparable in any way, to a rumor that someone may have said or done something.

clarice

Jane, they claimed govt interference..but at Steve Gilbert points out the IOC corruptocrats had no problem with interference by Uday or the Chinese Govt.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/iraq-banned-from-olympics-interference>Piss on the IOC

PrestoPundit

The story here is that Obama has been such a massive bullshitter about everything, including the details of his life, that there is little reason to trust anything he's said about his past.

I'd be truly shocked if it turned out Obama was born in Kenya (this hypothesis makes no sense at all).

But I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out that Stanley Ann Dunham was never married to Barack Obama, Sr.

kim

Those are red herrings, Dave. Producing a genuine document, particularly when your stated aim is to stop smears, is not the same as denying absurdities. At the very least, Obama is being tricky here; not a character trait admired in the Chief Executancy.
====================================

Danube of Thought

UncleBB, there weren't any laser printers in 1961. In fact, the first laser of any kind didn't show up until 1960.

Or are you simply suggesting that your proposed test would prove that the questioned certificate was printed by the Hawaii records office, perhaps quite recently? (You may have guessed that I am insufficiently interested in this issue to learn the actual facts.)

kim

Maybe Barack Senior decamped in order to flee the kind of documentation that was 'fencing him in', PP.
==========================

cathyf

I wonder if Barack Obama, Sr. isn't on the birth certificate, and, furthermore, isn't his father. Of course if this was all about protecting crazy Ann Dunham who filled Barack's head with lies about his father, then that would get more sympathy for Obama. On the other hand, if it's about hiding the fact that he's not half-black but half-polynesian, that would be a totally different thing.

PeterUK

"The idea of Obama's family collaborating to create a false biography for him is, in itself, hilarious. How did those 1961 dinner table conversations go, do they think? "If we don't create a false story, and fast, our half-African son of an 18-year old mother will have no chance at becoming president!"


Whilst this is chucklesome,the KGB did indeed get up to a multitude of devious tricks,even to the extent of building an American town in complete detail to train agents.Kim Philby of the Cambridge Traitors infamy rose to the top of British Intelligence.There are plenty of examples in America also.
But yes,whilst Obama may not be such,the idea is not that ludicrous.

Uncle BigBad

DOB

When you request a copy of your birth certificate it will be printed on a recently mfged laser printer. My copy of my certificate purchased in the 1950s is a photostat (are you old enough to remember those?)of a document obviously produced on an early 20th-century typewriter. A more recent birth certificate I ordered from the state of Texas looks like Obama's presidential seal.

I may be wrong about Hawaii's printer. If it's not a color printer, it may not print the code. The Kos certificate seems to be printed in black on pre-printed security paper.

Pagar

Walter Cronkite went so far as to create a story that the North Vietnamese Tet Offensive was somehow a victory for them. A false story which undoubtedly contributed to the farce that saw the American military winning on the battlefield in Vietnam but defeated by Anti America Americans in America.

LUN

IMO,most of the MSM Iraq War postings have been wrong to some degree at least.

Dave Weigel

I wonder if Barack Obama, Sr. isn't on the birth certificate, and, furthermore, isn't his father.

The state of Hawaii released a birth certificate reproduction that the Obama campaign released to Daily Kos and then posted on his website. There is as much proof that the certificate is a fake as there is proof that Mossad planned 9/11.

kim

Look Dave, it is possible to prove a positive. Pretend I'm from Pofarmer's state, and show me.
================================

cathyf
The state of Hawaii released a birth certificate reproduction that the Obama campaign released to Daily Kos and then posted on his website.
Why does the certificate that (supposedly) was printed by the State of Hawaii in 2007 which (supposedly) the Obama campaign (supposedly) released to Daily Kos and then (supposedly) posted on (not his website but this "anti-smear" website which may or may not be more or less associated with any of the adults-in-charge of the Obama campaign) have a different security border on it than all of the real COLB's printed out by the State of Hawaii between 2006-2008? I can see that with my own eyes.

That the posted document is a fake is not really in question. Whether the information contained on the fake document is in any way shape or form inaccurate is what is totally a matter of speculation. My pet speculation (I won't dignify it by calling it a "theory") is that one of Obama's creepy groupies created the counterfeit "memorabilia" using information contained in Dreams of My Father. Then somehow it got passed around enough times that it lost connection to its creator. Then the next piece of speculation is that the "anti-smear" site is an amateur production which is not connected to any real Obama campaign people who are actually paying it any attention. So that when they pick up the counterfeit memorabilia as an actual scan of an actual document, nobody in the Obama campaign thought to make sure that it was really something produced by the State of Hawaii and released to the Obama or Dunham family.

The closest analogy to my pet speculation would be the picture of Osama bin Laden and Bert (the puppet from Sesame Street) which appeared on posters at several anti-American rallies in Muslim countries after 9/11. The picture of Bert and bin Laden is certainly a fake. (We know who made it, and when -- it was a photoshop project/example as part of a long-running gag and photoshop skills contest called "Bert is Evil.") We also know that the Reuters photos of people carrying posters that included the Bert/binLaden photoshop while screaming "Death to America!" were not fake. The statement that anyone who can see that the Obama COLB is a fake believes anything in particular about what is or is not on the real Obama COLB is a classic strawman argument. I am perfectly able to believe that there is no link between Sesame Street and al Qeada, that neither Bert nor Ernie had anything to do with 9/11, but the Reuters news photos were absolutely genuine.

There is as much proof that the certificate is a fake as there is proof that Mossad planned 9/11.
Your statement is a complete non-sequitor. The certificate being a fake doesn't prove anything but that it is a counterfeit certificate. Your statement makes as much sense as saying "There is as much proof that the Israeli intelligence service is named "Mossad" and that 9/11 happened on September 11, 2001, as there is proof that Mossad planned 9/11."

cathyf

...of course kim said it way shorter than me...

Although TM's original "Better Rebuttals, Please" is even more concise!

clarice

Yes, but yours is the most sensible explanation for the publication on STS of an obviously suspect document.

Annoying Old Guy

I think the most likely explanation is that Obama is letting this drag out so he can trap his detractors. At some point he gets the real CLOB, thereby obviously disproving this rumor and then, using guilt by association, discredits other far more legitimate attacks.

P.S. I didn't think this up, I read it somewhere else, but it makes the most sense of all the claims I have seen.

cathyf

The problem, with that theory, AOG, is that when Obama comes up with the real COLB it will make obvious that the one posted on the smear site was a counterfeit. It won't matter if the info is exactly the same, if it becomes obvious that they had a counterfeit as an "official campaign" document. Maybe the real one has the real border instead of the different one. Maybe the real one says "Black" rather than "African" for Obama Sr's race. Or maybe something as simple as the black box blacking out the document number isn't big enough to black out the real document number. If the Kos/smears COLB looks counterfeit next to a real Hawaiian COLB that is not Obama's, it's going to be even more obvious next to a real Hawaiian COLB that is Obama's.

Nah, if the document is a counterfeit, then the campaign looks, at the very least, stupid and incompetent.

Annoying Old Guy
if the document is a counterfeit, then the campaign looks, at the very least, stupid and incompetent.
More so than now? Besides, that CLOB will be airbrushed off like the Reverend Wright and all of Obama's "inartful" statements. If the Obama campaign can survive "my Banking Committee", what's a little document gaffe?
Ralph L

I think even a ditzy liberal girl of 18 would have enough sense NOT to leave Hawaii for Africa to have a baby.

And what's with her parents naming her Stanley? Extremely outre/sadistic in the 1940's.

cathyf

If you read Dreams of My Father it's pretty clear that Obama comes from a pretty nutty family. Not just mom and dad, but grandma and grandpa, too. I think Stanley was her mother's maiden name, too, or maybe her grandmother's -- but I remember that it was a surname. So naming her Ann Stanley Dunham would have been a completely typical average sort of girls name.

Elliott

Stanley was her first name. Chicago Tribune:

Her name was something to tolerate -- barely. Elaine Johnson, who used to wait for the school bus with her, picked up on that when Dunham introduced herself one morning.

"I know, it's a boy's name . and no, I don't like it. I mean, would you like to be called Stanley?" Johnson recalled her saying. "But my dad wanted a boy and he got me. And the name 'Stanley' made him feel better, I guess."

Rocco

From The Seattle Times by Jonathan Martin

Susan Blake, another high-school classmate, said that during a brief visit in 1961, Dunham was excited about her husband's plans to return to Kenya.

"We all had June Cleaver as our role models, and she was blazing new trails for herself," said Blake, a former Mercer Island city councilwoman.

Did she go with him?

kim

cf, how about 'Do a 180 and show us the Original'.
=================================

centralcal

Not related to the COLB directly, but indirectly is this from The New Republic:

"Reporters who have covered Obama's biography or his problems with certain voter blocs have been challenged the most aggressively. "They're terrified of people poking around Obama's life," one reporter says. "The whole Obama narrative is built around this narrative that Obama and David Axelrod built, and, like all stories, it's not entirely true. So they have to be protective of the crown jewels." Another reporter notes that, during the last year, Obama's old friends and Harvard classmates were requested not to talk to the press without permission."


LUN

Ann

"Stanley was her first name."

Thanks Elliott, I feel better. :)

Mark O

I have no idea if Obama was born in the US or not (although I assume he was), but since it is a requirement of the US Constitution that the president be a natural born citizen, if Obama (or anybody else for that matter) is elected president don't they have to eventually provide legal proof of their birth before he can be sworn in?

And if not, why not?

Demon

To get a mule to move, sometimes you have to hit him as hard as you can right between the eyes with a 2x4. One of the other commenters is right. Obama has told so many lies and half-truths that you can't believe anything he or his campaign crowd say. In the beginning, because Obama had so little experience, they lached on to anything and hyped it to high heaven. Does anyone live near Harvard? I read that an investigation into his time as editor of the oh so prestigous Harvard Law Review he never wrote an article, yet right after graduation he recieved a generous book deal (he lived almost 2 years off just the advance) [The Audacity of Hope]. Now if he never wrote an article for the law review nor anything that can be found (please let us all know if anyone finds something he wrote), how did this person know if he could even write? Plus, he finally went to work for an organization you might have heard of - ACORN. And, even though there are several hundred more I have found like the $50 billion bill he just had a friend submit and was passed, that he doesn't talk about probably because it is said to contain a provision to allow people with HIV/AIDs into the country, it alls falls back on his believeability. He reminds me so much of William Jefferson Clinton, you know his wordsmithing, hopefully not Clinton's other problem, I watched all the Clitionites in amazement, as I watch all of you O-bots. This country is unbelieveable, I think I will stop for now and work on my application for a loan to build a Burka factory.

Ken

I'm under the impression that his parents were living in Hawaii, took a trip to Kenya, and returned to Hawaii. Isn't that enough reason for the grandparents to place the birth announcement in a Hawaiian newspaper? It doesn't have to have any far-reaching implications at the time. Although you may be 100% correct, I don't know if there's any way to know those intentions at this point.

analog

well it shouldn't be hard for anyone with modest connections to get a fake birth certificate issued officially by Hawaii.

Look at the one on 'Stop the Smear', down in right corner it refers to HRS 338 (HRS is short for Hawaii Revised Statutes).

here's from HRS 338.17, available here:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0007.htm

" (5) Upon request of a law enforcement agency certifying that a new birth certificate showing different information would provide for the safety of the birth registrant; provided that the new birth certificate shall contain information requested by the law enforcement agency, shall be assigned a new number and filed accordingly, and shall not substitute for the birth registrant’s original birth certificate, which shall remain in place. """

they need to get into the state's file cabinet and see what's there.
I hope the judge does just that.

Barb

Perhaps the conversation was more on the line that they wanted their son to be a US citizen and receive the benefits of a US citizen.

di

There are fligh manifest of passengers. No idea how long they are kept. To fly out of the country, you must have a passport. There are marriage licenses.

So, find the airline, view the passport history, get a copy of the marriag license.

Also, hospitals keep records of hospitalizations. Women were hospitalized to give birth.Get the hospitalization records.

It is important to know if Obama is a citizen. Non citizens cannot be president. This country is a mess. Quit justifying wrongs and changing laws to make it fit. Leave the constitution alone. Our forefathers knew what they were doing. Remember, just because something is legal does not make it morally right. Every knee will bow to the God of the universe. It doesn't really matter if you believe He exists. What a mess this country is in. Apathy and unrighteousness is so sick. And no I am not talking about what I perceive to be right, but what the God of the bible perceives. Again, it doesn't really matter if you agree. We will bow the knee to Him and give an account. He makes me do what is right. when your god is you, you do whatever you want..............

Former Haole

If you check the property appraiser's office you will find a house at 6031 Kalanianaole Highway built in 1941 and one at 6039 built in 1953 - nothing inbetween so their address couldn't have been 6035; and one at 6041 built in 1941 and one at 6059 built in 1998 - THERE IS NO 6035 or 6055 Kalanianaole Highway! Nor has there ever been!

Truth Seeker

OK! Now that you have got my interest piqued lets answer MarkO's question 'don't you eventually have to prove you are a U.S. Citizen?'
Any Legal Eagles out there? While we are at it why did the Federal Judge rule that Atty.Berg didn't have standing to request proof of citizenship? Who has standing if a private citizen doesn't?
Truth Seeker

r.j.

I am much older than he is and i have a certified copy of my birth certificate. So whats his problem of showing it if indeed he has one???????????????????????
R.J.

Constitution Respecter

Hawaiian newspapers: Who can provide an old issue from August 1961 other than the "Advertiser" which doesn't say where B.H.O. was born? Other people were born during the same week or two. Maybe someone out there has an announcement that states the hospital the children were born in. As the old saying goes, "if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck," and this story seems to have a life and needs to gain momentum.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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