Looks Like Sully Is Serious

Andrew Sullivan, despite his long history of deploring the "Swiftboating" of John Kerry, remains determined to call into question John McCain's story about a Vietnamese prison guard drawing a cross in the dirt at Christmas.  Here is his initial post and three follow-ups.  Whoa.  Where is this freight train headed, asks Megan McArdle.

I know what you're thinking - unless we can interview every prison guard in Vietnam we can never prove this story to be false, and anyway, who cares?  But let's give Excitable Andy a chance to frame the issue:

And of course, none of this would be salient were it not for the obvious motive for coopting the story. McCain has never been a very devout man. He doesn't come across that way in his first account of the story; and he doesn't come across that way now. But as the Christianists took over the GOP, he must have understood that this was a problem - especially against Bush in 2000. So in 1999, the story, already poignant and true in its particulars, changes into a much more grandiloquent and sectarian affair, echoing deep evangelical themes and tropes.

And it would not be salient if McCain hadn't deployed the anecdote in his own words - with a misleading image - in a campaign ad, and used it again in front of an evangelical audience Saturday night. And it would not be salient if religious fanatics had not a strangle-hold on the Republican party, seeking doctrinal assurances and echoes of their own type of faith in political candidates.

...And why are we not allowed to ask these questions, when they relate to one of the most important questions anyone can ask about a president: the question of integrity? If McCain has fabricated a religious epiphany for political purposes, it is about as deep a betrayal of core integrity as one can imagine, and the latest example of how pernicious the religious domination of political life in America has become.

Hmm.  When John Kerry was running on his military resume yet refusing to release his records or his diary, these questions were deplorable.  Times change.

As to the notion that McCain is inventing his religiosity, I addressed that in my first post.  but ai am happy to try again for folks interested in an answer (I expect Sully's question is strictly rhetorical).  The fact is that John McCain, in describing his captivity to US News and World report in 1973, described the importance of God and faith in his prison experience in several passages, excerpted below:

I was finding that prayer helped. It wasn't a question of asking for superhuman strength or for God to strike the North Vietnamese dead. It was asking for moral and physical courage, for guidance and wisdom to do the right thing. I asked for comfort when I was in pain, and sometimes I received relief. I was sustained in many times of trial.

Later McCain described the church riot:

In March of 1971 the senior officers decided that we would have a showdown over church. This was an important issue for us. It also was a good one to fight them on. We went ahead and held church. The men that were conducting the service were taken out of the room immediately. We began to sing hymns in loud voices and "The Star-Spangled Banner."

The "gooks" thought it was a riot situation. They brought in the ropes and were practicing judo holds and that kind of stuff. After about a week or two they started taking the senior officers out of our room and putting them over in another building.

Shrewd of McCain to have planted those passages in 1973 in anticipation of the rise of the religious right.  And his talk to Reagan's prayer group in 1974 showed similar foresight:

"In 1974, his last year as governor, Reagan invited McCain to speak at the annual prayer breakfast in Sacramento. 'Nancy cries when we send out the laundry,' said Reagan in his introduction, 'so I want to tell you, she'll never make it through listening to a talk by our next guest, Commander John McCain.' Never glancing at a note, McCain told a prison parable, of being in solitary, a hole in the ground, [Note: In the entire official records, McCain was never, yes never, ever in solitary - in a hole in the ground. POWs at the Briarpatch were, but not McCain - in any of the prison camps where he spent time.], unbearable heat, suicidal thoughts intensifying. By chance he discovered some scratchings on the wall, the words of a previous inmate: 'I believe in God, the Father Almighty.'"

"Reagan was right. Mrs. Reagan had the Kleenex out within five minutes. She wasn't alone. 'There must have been three hundred or four hundred people, maybe more than that, all these people sobbing,' said Nancy Reynolds. 'Not just sniffling. Ronald Reagan was sitting up there bawling. We were all dazzled,' she continued. 'He was a natural speaker, as she was beginning to realize, a natural politician.

Now, McCain's critics (IIRC, it was at DKos) have read that passage and cite it as evidence that the cross-in-dirt story is fabricated!  Their point is that the cross story would have been at least as powerful a tale as the story McCain told.  My response is this - if McCain was inventing stories of his religiosity in 1974, that is hardly consistent with Sully's theory about McCain inventing a religious tale to solve his political problem with the religious right in 1999.

Whatever.  Sully was not interested in the facts when Kerry was the subject, and I doubt he is interested in the facts now.  Although we will never have proof of the "cross in dirt" story, there is certainly evidence that McCain found comfort in his faith during his time in captivity, as revealed in those passages from 1973/74.  Hence, Sully's concern that McCain may have "fabricated a religious epiphany for political purposes" can be set to rest (but I bet it won't be!).

While we are here, let's tackle Sully question about "The Nightingale's Song" - three of McCain's Christmases in Vietnam are described with no mention of the cross-in-dirt story.  Inexplicable?  Well, "Nightingale" gives a sentence to the church riot on p. 194 but I can find no mention (using Amazon's search) of McCain linked to praying or prayer, nor do I find the "Father Almighty" story McCain told in 1974.  Does that mean that McCain de-fabricated them as of 1995, or is it possible that the author had little interest in that aspect of McCain's prison experience?

With that said, I know we will be able to rouse Andrew's new-found curiosity about loose ends and war stories.  Why was it that Zaladonis, a ship-mate of Kerry's in Vietnam, was interviewed repeatedly by Douglas Brinkley and by the Boston Glove reporters in 2003 yet never mentioned that he was with Kerry when Kerry won his first Purple Heart?  Zaladonis only provided the detail that he was with Kerry for Kerry's first combat, first medal, and the scariest night of Zaladonis' life when Kerry came under criticism in 2004.  Odd?  Kerry never released the records (such as his Purple Heart application) or his War Notes that might have shed light here.  Troubling?  Isn't that question at least as valid as the questions Sully is proposing today?

Or if Sully is worried that McCain is lying about his religious conviction (There are no atheists in foxholes but plenty in POW camps?), maybe we can get him as interested in the little matter of Obama's tie to Bill Ayers.  That is a topic where we know that the Obama camp has been lying to reporters; here is The Politico from last April:

Information about the pair's connection has been dribbling out over the past few months. Obama first met Ayers in 1995, during Obama's first state Senate campaign, and the two met with a small group of local liberal activists at Ayers' house. Exact details of the meeting are unkown because Obama and Ayers have declined to discuss it.

The Politico dates that meeting to the second half of 1995; Obama became chair of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge in January 1995.  The Challenge was dedicated to education reform and co-founded by Bill Ayers, who worked closely with the chairman for several years thereafter.  Right now Stanley Kurtz is trying to get the Chicago Annenberg Challenge archives but despite initial permission his access has now been taken away.  Why the cover-up? 

And why am I confident that questions that cut to the heart of Kerry's character, or Obama's, are still viewed by Sully as nothing more than deplorable right-wing distractions despite his own ludicrous assault on McCain's assertions of faith?

Comments

[Daddy]

The only individual Sully has successfully sullied these last few years is himself.

[pagar]

Good Morning to All!
Nothing Sullivan can say will change my mind. McCain is the only person that will have his name on the ballot in November who is qualified to be President of the US.

[kim]

Have they quit polling and started flying by the seat of their pants? Incredible strategy, like he doesn't have the nomination yet. Hmmmm.
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[Cecil Turner]

"Serious" Sully? Oxymoron.

[John in Tokyo]

This is a briarpatch scenario. McCain supporters should relish the idea of the left attacking him on this and making a big deal.

Keep pushing this netrooters! What's not to like? There's a measure of payback for the Swiftboaters, exposure of plagarism. exposure of lying and religious hypocracy. Just don't think about the fact that you are reminding the public of McCain's heroic suffering and his touching tales of heroism (he's almost as heroic as John Kerry).

[kim]

The poor deluded fools think this has the sting of 'Christmas in Cambodia' or the secret dude's hat. The left still thinks we lost in Vietnam because we were evil.
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[kim]

Yeah, religious hypocrisy via Wright and being tortured into silence by Bill Ayers are themes that are really going to fly for the Obamanauts. They may be targetting McCain's strength, but a sensible campaign would target his weakness. This looks like David believing he could blow Goliath away with the power of speech. He's bringing spitballs to a rock fight.
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[Captain Hate]

I posed this at Ace of Spades and didn't get an answer so I'll try it here: What is a "Christianist"? I know that Thully has been using it for a while but I refuse to go to that simpleton's site to sift through pages of delusional rants to find out what a word means that isn't in the OED (and pegs the spellchecker here, btw). There is a word "Christianism" that has a secondary definition as being a contemptuous reference to Christianity, which is probably what that snarky idiot is using it for even though there are no examples of it being used since the late 19th century. But there's no inclusion of a word "Christianist", unlike "Episcopalian" for example.

[Paul Zrimsek]

More support for my pet theory that liberals are people who never remember anything: McCain ran against "Christianists" in 2000; it's part of the reason he lost.

Has the cross become the sole property of right-wing evangelicals now? I suppose if Obama could go to TUCC all those years without noticing all the radical hate speech, then Sully could go to Mass all those years without noticing all the crucifixes.

[Cecil Turner]

The poor deluded fools think this has the sting of 'Christmas in Cambodia' or the secret dude's hat.

Yeah, Kerry was a target-rich subject for ridicule. Besides, he had a real issue on the duty front: he skated on two-thirds of his tour using two very dubious Purple Heart awards (first and third). Even so, it took that and his ludicrous Senate Foreign Relations Committee testimony to sink him. And despite undeniable evidence, the myth of him getting a bum rap persists.

Sully thinking his unprovable stupidity about whether or not some guy traced a cross is remotely comparable is just out there. Moreover, it just highlights the fact that, when presented with an opportunity to leave early from a far more onerous situation than Kerry faced, McCain had the moral courage to make the right choice. It certainly isn't helpful.

So far this stuff seems confined to the blogosphere, and I doubt they'll get invested enough in this loser to generate a real backlash . . . but you never know. In any event, Napoleon's famous advice springs to mind: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

[Jane]

What is a "Christianist"

I think you should take it to the horse's mouth. Surely Sully permits questions on his blog or accepts email. Then we will all be able to mock him in uniformity. Just don't mention that Obama is opposed to gay marriage.

[Captain Hate]

Sorry Jane but I'm not giving him a blog hit. His whole existence is based on dishonesty, such as claiming to be a conservative, so I wouldn't believe anything he said in response anyway.

[bgates]

Capt, you may be familiar with the term "Islamist", meaning a style of totalitarianism which justifies itself with some superficial aspects of Islam (such as, erm, the Koran). "Christianist" is a term used by people who see parallels between the American government and the Saudi or Iranian governments. It's a big internet, so I can't say for sure that this is the stupidest term you could find.

[DebinNC]

Sullivan was the editor of The New Republic in 1994 when Bill Clinton miraculously found a pile of stones on Omaha Beach and "spontaneously" made them into a cross. I wonder if/how TNR reported that incident?

[Pofarmer]

Sully makes about as much sense as Maureen Dowd. He ought to be doing a style section, or something.

[DebinNC]

Dowd writing of Clinton's "cross moment" at Normandy in 1994: LUN

"The President knew he was supposed to look reflective for the three cameras and dozen photographers who joined him. But after looking soulfully out at the ocean for a moment, he seemed at a loss for what to do next, according to a photographer on the scene, who was scared that Clinton was about to mouth the words "What do I do now?" But then, spying the stones at his feet left by his advance staff to show him where his camera mark was, the President crouched down and began to arrange the stones into a cross. He gathered more stones to finish the cross, and then bent his head as though in silent prayer. ...
The White House aides were ecstatic. "Wasn't it great?" they asked reporters."

[Captain Hate]

Capt, you may be familiar with the term "Islamist", meaning a style of totalitarianism which justifies itself with some superficial aspects of Islam (such as, erm, the Koran).

That's probably a good explanation since Islamist is likewise not in the OED. I realize that the English language is always evolving but I tend to be skeptical of most contemporary manifestations of it. Hyphenated words are one thing, such as Islamo-facism, since both root words retain their meaning. I doubt that Christianist will ever be included in any respectable dictionary because it's based on Sully's unique viewpoint.

[bad]

Their point is that the cross story would have been at least as powerful a tale as the story McCain told.

The real issue is that Sully can't conceive of a candidate with multiple gut-wrenching decisions in his/her background.

[Semanticleo]

Speaking with reporters aboard his bus, the "Straight Talk Express," after his loss in three state primary elections, McCain referred to Baptist evangelists Pat Robertson and the Rev. Jerry Falwell as "evil." At an earlier speech in Virginia Beach he dubbed the same men "agents of intolerance."

McCain supporter and Christian conservative Gary Bauer demanded an immediate apology, calling McCain's remarks "unwarranted, ill-advised and divisive." But Bauer did not withdraw his support, and campaign staff admitted Bauer had seen McCain's Virginia Beach speech before he delivered it on Monday. William Bennett, a McCain supporter, former education secretary for Ronald Reagan and author of the popular Book of Virtues, blasted the senator's remarks, calling them not "appropriate for a man running for president of the United States."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_12_16/ai_61487323

That was 2000, and it seems like a lifetime
since he abandoned his "Express" train in 2004 when he tonsil-hockeyed Bush, then proceeded to group-grope the Evangelical power-brokers he once eschewed.

Political expedience is the sole province of Obama, though, right?

Then McCain abandoned his pledge of a "respectful campaign" made, wait, just four months ago.........

"Americans want more respectful campaigns," he added. But the longtime proponent of overhauling campaign finance laws said it's very hard to control the activities of allegedly independent groups that engage in negative campaigning."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-04-01-mccain-va_N.htm

Oh, yeah. He was talking about the 527's.

He can't distance himself from Corsi, he wants to be Bush's sucksessor.

[bad]

sucksessor.

That explains the "seman" moniker...

[centralcal]

gawd, Semantic, you just underscore everything that is vile about the left. Always the vulgarity in every point you try to and FAIL to make.

[Great Banana]

Cleo,

So, is your point that McCain's stories are lies? That McCain can't have religious beliefs? What is your point?

Nobody denies that McCain had to woo the christian right this time around - rather than antogonizing them as he did in 2000. But, what specific policy positions do you claim he changed? I don't see any real significant changes in social policies that he has taken to pander to the religious right - so what are you claiming?

As far as the "respectful campaign" b.s. - it's the same in each campaign. The dems claim that the GOP is playing dirty and vice versa. Both sides play the same game and claiming otherwise is simply childish. We could argue back and forth all day as to whose is the worse campaign in this regard - there is plenty of fodder for either side. So, crying that somehow McCain's campaign is the "bad" campaign and Obama's is the "good" campaign is not going to persuade anyone of anything.

[Sue]

That explains the "seman" moniker...

Touche. And LOL. ::grin::

[BumperStickerist]

-
John McCain found faith while a prisoner of war.

Andrew Sullivan tinkers with religion.

Sullivan, quite simply, is jealous.

-

[sbw]

TM, thanks for marking the lay of the land. We may see what you mean, but don't expect an "Ah, ha!" of recognition from Sully or his ilk. They can't be wrong. The compartments in their brains are hermetically sealed, like the jars on Funk & Wagnall's porch.

Ellis' book on Jefferson, "American Sphinx", notes Jefferson shared the same trait. And he, thanks to FDR, became the patron saint of the Democratic Party. To give you an example, Jefferson decried partisanship, yet secretly passed information as Secretary of State to the anti-federalists to further their undermining of Washington's government.

Inconsistency? Not in his mind. Inconsistency? Not is Sullivan's mind. Not when the cause is his own.

You cannot tell such people anything. Socrates was wise to only ask questions. An individual intellect is the only tool that can overcome that individual's intellectual myopia, and only if they dare ask themselves sound questions.

[sbw]

[Further note: Jefferson hated Alexander Hamilton and the financial centralization Hamilton was creating during Washington's administration.]

[kim]

Semi, you are whining that McCain is a more nuanced politician than Obama. Son, McCain was considering other points of view when Obama still didn't know what to call himself.
==============================

[Rick Ballard]

Captain Hate,

Christianist as used by Sullivan refers to those Christian followers who have been unable to as yet find the scripture supporting his point of view regarding homosexuality.

You know - the ones who can read.

[Jack is Back!]

Andrew Sullivan is irrelevant. How many votes for McCain do you think he has influenced in any direction? I'd say none against but probably more of the right way dug in stronger than ever. This is not the kind of issue the left wants to bring up thinking of it as their version of the Swift Boat kerfuffle. If anything it keeps religion and faith in the forefront. Religion and faith for Obama equals Wright and Pfleger. While for McCain it equals moral courage under extreme pressure and torture. This is a big lose for them and I encourage them to bring it on with gusto.

[Semanticleo]

"it's the same in each campaign."

Tell Maguire.

[bad]

Sullivan is the result of gay affirmative action. Were he straight, he wouldn't be published.

[Jane]

OT:

Everyone is buzzing about Biden. I can only hope hope hope that's true. I wonder if muzzle sales are up.

[sbw]

Biden would be a whoop! An Al Gore with a bigger ego and bigger mouth.

[Ranger]

I really can't tell if this is panic or payback on the part of the left. Probably a combination of both. They have been aching to successfully "swiftboat" a republican for 4 years, yet at the same time, I think the continued weak poll numbers for Obama have pushed them to "extreem" acts. Only panic would blind them to how bad this argument is from a political perspective.

[Great Banana]

Tell Maguire what?

I doubt very much that Maguire ever claimed that campaigns don't both do negative advertising.

I'm not sure what that has to do with any "point" you were trying to make. You came on to a post about the silliness of the attack on McCain's cross story with some non-sequitor about McCain not running a "respectable" campaign.

I was asking you whether you had a point. Do you? If so, what is it?

[Beth]

Good grief, Sully's so out of his element on this story it's turned into point-and-laugh territory. He's in the prison camp of FAIL.

[K. Bowman]

I am surprised noone has mentioned this.

There should be obvious reasons why John McCain would not want to expose the existence of a possible Christian among the guards at his prison camp when he was released in 1973 which have nothing whatsoever to do with constructing an appealing story for his audience.

Telling the story in 1999 put no one in danger.

[Ranger]

OT:

Everyone is buzzing about Biden. I can only hope hope hope that's true. I wonder if muzzle sales are up.

Posted by: Jane | August 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM

Well, I can say from my personal experience, that Biden may do more damage than good for Obama. A good friend of mine, who is a big time Obama backer would be very troubled to vote for him if Biden were the running mate. This guy is a Bosnian refugee, and Biden's calls to partition Bosnia have been a real sore point for that community. And you'd be surprised how many large Bosnian refugee communities there are in key states.

[kim]

Ranger, it's Fear and Loathing in Denver. God I wish the Gonzo Guy were still alive. What he could have written about Denver, if he had stuck to his schtick, might have been amazing. But I don't blame him for considering the vision troubling.
=================

[M. Simon]

McCain Lied, Obama Died.

[sbw]

[OT]
H/T Instapundit - Amethyst Initiative to rethink the ineffective drinking age. [/OT]

[Jerry Wright]

Andy-pamby should stick to bug-chasing. It's the only thing he's good at.

[M. Simon]

Sullivan is the result of gay affirmative action. Were he straight, he wouldn't be published.

No at one time Sully was good. Very good.

In fact I used to correspond with him back in the day.

He did have an annoying habit of never giving the little people credit for things they wrote. So I forbade him from using any of my e-mails.

[Pofarmer]

Then McCain abandoned his pledge of a "respectful campaign" made, wait, just four months ago.........

How so?

At an earlier speech in Virginia Beach he dubbed the same men "agents of intolerance."

Ya know, there are a lot of intolerant Baptists out there.

[bad]

at one time Sully was good.

He is no longer yet continues to be published. And that is because....???

[A.W.]

I keep saying this, but it isn't getting through...

McCain had a perfectly logical reason not to reveal the story right away: it might endanger the guard.

[glasater]

If BHO wins this election--and I certainly hope he does not--he will become a Catholic and twist the principles of that religion to suit his terrible ends.

[PeterUK]

"Have they quit polling and started flying by the seat of their pants?"

In this case,for quite a long time.

[kim]

sbw, booze is the entry drug to destructive drug use. Sumpin' ain't right out here, these days.
================================

[Pofarmer]

On a related note.

Was Barack Hussein calling Pres. Bush, "John McCains President" respectful? Think that's gonna woo those moderates?