Mais Oui, Mon Ami

Andrew Sullivan is shocked (shocked!) that anyone could think that his questioning of McCain's cross in the dirt story could be characterized as "Swiftboating":

Swift-boat? Moi?

It's worth noting that pursuing the cross-in-the-dirt evangelical parable as it might have happened to McCain is in no way impugning anyone's war record. No one is disputing in any way what McCain did in Vietnam, his heroism, his sacrifice or any jot and tittle of his combat in arms and time in captivity.

Uh huh.  McCain tells a story of his war time experience meant to illuminate his character.  Sully questions that story but he is not "disputing in any way what McCain did in Vietnam".  Hmm, I guess he is merely disputing what a Vietnamese guard did, and what McCain remembers.  Quel difference!  Or as Sister Toldjah rejoins "Yeah.  And my writing this post? It’s not part of my blog."

Byron York is a calming beacon of light:

Team McCain reshaped and altered the utterly believable story, Sullivan says, to appeal to the evangelical base, beginning in the 2000 campaign. (And we all know how hard John "agents of intolerance" McCain was working to sweet-talk evangelicals back in 2000.) Anyway, Exhibit A in this is a McCain campaign ad telling the cross-in-the-dirt story. In the ad, we see video of someone making a cross in dirt — using a stick. And McCain had said the North Vietnamese guard used his sandal. Aha!

I threw in my two cents about the bitter "stick versus sandal" schism in comments to this post:

However - a sandal is also a lot less visually interesting to film, at least in a quick ad (What do you show, some guy shuffling his feet?). Creative license.

I have a very hard time believing that Sully wouldn't be offering these rationales himself if he were sincerely interested in sorting this out.  [Long time McCain aide and co-author Mark Salter goes with "artistic license".  OK, then, show us the license...]

As to why McCain didn't tell the story himself in 1973 - a commenter suggested that maybe ratting out a Christian sympathizer among the prison guards struck McCain as a bad idea. 

But if you think that is a long shot, how about my suggestion, which found support from a Sully-sympathizer:

If I may dare to play armchair psychologist — one point of the “cross in dirt” story is McCain’s recognition of and reconciliation to the humanity of his often brutal captors. My guess is that in May of 1973 he had not fully worked through his issues with the North Vietnamese.

Well.  Let the Switfboating continue!

TRYING TO GRASP THE SUBTLETIES OF "SULLYBOATING":  Let's see if I get Sullivan's argument - McCain's memory of a cross in the dirt is not a story about his courage or in his military record, and he may or may not have invented it in 2000 for political purposes; therefore, critics are not engaging in "Swiftboating" when they pick at it.

Well, then, what about folks, including the Swiftboaters, who questioned Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia" story?  That incident was not in Kerry's record (since it never happened!); he had not received a mdeal for it; and he seemd to have invented it for political purposes (e.g., in a Senate speech in 1986 Kerry's point was that he had special moral authority to denounce a secret Iran-Contra war since he had been a participant/victim of Nixon's secret war in Cambodia in 1968.  Please ignore the fact that Nixon was inaugurated in January 1969.)

By Sullivan's new standard the Swiftboaters were not Swiftboating Kerry on this topic, since they were only questioning a politically motivated story and not "real" conduct in Vietnam.  A fine distinction - can we call this "Sullyboating"?

Pretty complicated!  In my world, if a politician wants to run on his record, critics should be free to examine it, and take the consequences.  In Sully's world, the rules are less clear, but let me guess at a summary - it is OK to attack Republicans.

Comments

[Hardy har har]

"John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be."

-Dr. Phillip Butler (USNA '61): a hall mate of John McCain's at the Naval Academy. He was a Vietnam War light-attack carrier pilot. He was a POW for 8 years in North Vietnam during the time that McCain was in captivity. He has two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals.

[William Jennings Bryan]

You shall not press down upon the brow of lamers this cone of thorns! You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of dirt!

[sbw]

Cynically, I think that Sully is cynical to think that the McCain camp would be so cynical as to rework McCain's story as a cynical ploy to address the cynical tactics the Obama campaign has used to keep Obama from appearing cynical. Now, let's keep this campaign on the high road.

[Appalled]

The funny thing about this is that this is just part and parcel of Mr. Sullivan's overwhelming enthusiasm for Obama. Once an Obama term gets rolling, and Obama's enthusiasm for government mandated volunteerism and enhanced regulation get rolling, Sullivan's libertarian streak will get bent out of shape, and similarly bitter (and likely similarly accurate) posts will roll out, one after the other.

Sully, as a writer, isn't all that bad. When he's edited, he can approach brilliant. But -- oddly for one of the genre's pioneers -- blogging manages to amplify all his faults as a writer, and turns him into a prolific hack for any candidate who can engage his enthusiasms.

(Remember -- it as only a short time ago -- his rampaging enthusiasm for Ron Paul? Does anyone really remember Ron Paul?)

[Via Ron Paul]

"Does anyone really remember Ron Paul?"

Actually yes, lots of people. Wait till th eRepub convention!

Now who remebers Fred Thompson-our "next president" per the ever sharp as gum under a table maguire.

[sbw]

Love to see those embarrassing Ron Paul bumperstickers. Yesterday's news tells you so much about someone.

[sbw]

Now if Obama dropped Joe Biden for Fred Thompson as VP, I just might vote... Nah! Nevermind.

[Viva Ron Paul]

you want embarassing? How about when Maguire was all "aw shucks" gooberish when he made the blogroll on Fred Thompson's website?!

How many hits did you get from that baby Maguire?

Fred Thompson as President!!!!!!!!

It's so stupid!!!

[Appalled]

Are you Paulites going to vote for Bob Barr?

[Great Banana]

John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be."

Assuming for the moment that the quote is accurate and from who you say it is from - so what?

What politician does not ally himself with people they don't like? What politician at the presidential level does not end up endorsing and campaigning for a political rival who trashed him at some point (think, Obama and Hillary campaigning together now)? Will leftists foresake Obama for now campaigning with Hillary? What about if Obama picks Biden for VP who famously called Obama "clean" and "articulate"?

I'm really not sure what that quote is supposed to mean, other than that the guy who said it doesn't like the religious right or Bush and is mad at McCain for not sticking his finger in the right's eye? What is the point?

[bgates]

So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be.
Not really on point for the story Sullivan is so worked up about. But if you want to shout to the heavens that McCain is really, truly not close to Bush at all...
I can't stop you.

[bgates]

you want embarassing?
Can you spell "embarrassing"?

I'm pretty sure Fred Thompson would see a lot to admire in Ron Paul's domestic platform. He's a federalist, states' rights, strict Constitutionalist kind of guy. Why the venom, Paulista?

[Captain Hate]

Has anybody ever observed a Ronulan with a detectable amount of humility?

[Hardy har har]

"other than that the guy who said it doesn't like the religious right"

You mean like call them "agents of intolerance". Oops that was McCain.

It just means that McCain will say anything to get elected. He got this nice anecdote all ready for the 2000 campaign, but Bush (my favorite political philosopher is Christ) out-jesused him.

It's all a fraud. Vote for McCain if you want, but don't be such a sucker about it!

McCain was first challenged about this tale on Free Republic! Try to remember exactly why conservatives used to hate the guy and maybe you'll see.

[Lesley]

"Now who remebers Fred Thompson-our "next president" per the ever sharp as gum under a table maguire."

Yes, I remember. But I got over my romance with my political crush rather quickly and moved on. The dems are stuck with their crush and I'm none sensing the same coup de foudre these days.

[Viva Ron Paul]

Obama's still killing it on Tradesports. Like to see some of you geezers put your social secuirity money where your mouth is.

[Rick Ballard]

Captain Hate,

I thought they had all been recalled to the mothership. Perhaps this is a fauxRonulan?

The thread lice get thick when things are going badly for The Annointed One. Perhaps the coming LAT poll is as bad as suggested? Not that I would put much stock in a LAT poll and especially one which may be designed to reflect a post convention bounce higher than the "dead cat" which state polls are currently showing.

[Lesley]

"Mais oui, mon ami."

I like French Day. I thought TM did this to encourage our use of French words & phrases, so I complied.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

Steve Diamond has a new post about the Annenberg Challenge archives stonewall. Seems he's having some of the same problems with Brown University.

[Captain Hate]

Tres bien, Leslie; I'm glad that we's can say more than merci beaucoup.

[Topsecretk9]

TM -- you'll be interested in an insty link..

the author of Solzhenitsyn: A Biography, says the episode "never happened," and didn't appear in Solzhenitsyn's book, Gulag Archipelago, either.

A commenter, I think at Gateway pundit, said this as well.

[Captain Hate]

Sorry Lesley!

[Viva Ron Paul]

Seriously, do any of you geezers have any money on McCain?

Maguire still got a link over there to the Intrade Libby odds, and I never did thank you morons for keeping "guilty" such a relative good contract.

Buy McCain. Please.

[Cecil Turner]

I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man.

Ah, a politician being politic. If that's the worst thing the self-styled "peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace" has on ol' John, he might've saved himself the effort of writing that little hit-piece.

[RichatUF]

Great Bananna-

Blackfive had a write up about that article when it came out a while back. The author is a member of Veterans for Peace and a "peace and justice activist" (sort of an obscure title like "community activist).

[hardy har har]

Hit piece?

I defy you to correct one thing in it.

Yeah, take a look at this bio: real jackass this guy.

Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals.

After his repatriation in 1973 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at San Diego and became a Navy Organizational Effectiveness consultant. He completed his Navy career in 1981 as a professor of management at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace.

[BumperStickerist]

Me?

I'm just thrilled that Sullivan thinks that McCain's read Solzhenitsyn.

I mean, the hell with McCain actually *living* it ... John's apparently read about this stuff as well.

-

[Great Banana]

You mean like call them "agents of intolerance". Oops that was McCain.

Oops - I don't think anyone here forgot that. Nor, frankly, do I care as I never thought much of the people he was talking about.

It just means that McCain will say anything to get elected.

Unlike, say, Obama, who has changed his main policies 180 degrees between the primaries and the general? The guy who said he couldn't disown Wright one week, and then disowned him the next? Is that the kind of honesty and integrity you are looking for?

He got this nice anecdote all ready for the 2000 campaign, but Bush (my favorite political philosopher is Christ) out-jesused him.

So, you are saying that the cross story that at least one other POW confirms is false?

It's all a fraud. Vote for McCain if you want, but don't be such a sucker about it!

Yes, a lot of political theater is a fraud. I agree with that. Look at Obama - he's about as big a fraud as you can find in every way imaginable.

I am not happy about McCain b/c he is too liberal for my taste. But, he is 100 times better than Obama. Arguing that McCain is "fake" is certainly not a persausive reason to vote for Obama - who is much more "fake" than McCain. At least w/ McCain he has a history that we can look to and see where he has stood and have some idea as to what his philosophy/values are. With Obama, it is all smoke and mirrors. Noone knows what that guy truly believes.

McCain was first challenged about this tale on Free Republic! Try to remember exactly why conservatives used to hate the guy and maybe you'll see.

So again, I'm not sure what your point is.

If it is that you believe that McCain's cross story is a complete lie - say that! Take a stand. Be explicit.

[Daddy]

Thanks Hardy for that. Next time please include Butler's comments on how McCain conducted himself during captivity, not just his opinion of whether or not he should have shaken hands with President Bush in 2000, etc.

The difference I think between how the left handled the SwiftBoater's and Kerry, is that the Left desperately tried to deny Kerry's squadronmates the opportunity to comment at all on Kerry's service and fitness for command, unless of course their opinions were carefully screened, vetted and approved by the campaign, and by partisan members of the media. Then they could be aired, but other than that any utterances his squadronmates made were immediately considered illigitimate, and either they should not have had the opportunity to speak, or rather instead their stated opinions should have been prevented from being freely reported to the public via the MSM.
On the Right, by contrast, the majority of us are happy to have each and every one of his fellow POW's stand up and loudly proclaim whatever the crap they want to say concerning McCain's behavior during captivity, as well as their opinions on his fitness to serve as President. I for instance, had 2 former CO's who were former POW's with McCain, and neither had anything but praise for McCain whenever the topic came up about him being a fit politician. I also flew quite a lot more recently with another 5+ years POW, who though no supporter of McCain as a Presidential Candidate, due to differing Political views, nevertheless nearly came over the table one night, when an obnoxious drunken jerk called McCain a "bootlicker for the Trilateralist Commission." Man, that was a very visceral and unexpected affirmation of this other POW's opinion of McCain's fundamental character, regardless of whether or not he felt like pulling the lever for John McCain in the voting booth.

That's the difference, get all the facts out there on the table. We're intelligent enough to interpret them.

[Lesley]

Heck yes, Captain.

I turn into a veritable Jamie Lee Curtis every time Italian is spoken to me!

(you'll notice TM didn't use Italian - boy, would the thread have gone nuts)

[Jean Francois Kerry aka LindaK]

Cher BO:

Je voudrais etre le VP.

Votre ami, Jean Francois

[Hardy har har]

Ok Great Banana.

I'll be as clear as I can:

Of course, McCain made up the story. It's a complete lie fabricated to dupe gullible Christians.

Take a look at McCain's actual life as opposed to his words.

That Free Republic called him out first is the key. Why exactly did real actual conservatives used to hate mcCain?

[Great Banana]

While I did not call it a "hit piece" I will respond to this:

I defy you to correct one thing in it.

The article states that "Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander."

That is simply not true, despite the urban legend. Find me one cite to any Bush ad or Bush statement that lied about McCain.

This is along the same lines as the urban legend that the GOP "questioned" Max Cleland's patriotism. No - the GOP highlighted Max Cleland's votes and stances on issues, that is all.

[Danube of Thought]

I also talked with Ed Martin last night about Phil Butler (Martin was a POW from July 1967 to the end). He said he thinks the guy has gone around the bend somewhat, and he wouldn't believe a word he says. In any event, if you read Butlers's entire piece, it appears that the reason he is not voting for McCain is that McCain is not in fact a moderate Republican. News to me...

In any event, note that Butler nowhere impugns McCain's conduct as a POW. And despite the debasement of the term, John McCain will only be "SwiftBoated" if his own POW colleagues come forward in large numbers to derogate his behavior and dispute his accounts of it. Not gonna happen.

According to Martin, Butler is simply wrong when he says that all the POW's were offered early release. It was never offered to Ed Martin, nor is he aware of it happening to anyone else other than McCain.

[Hardy har har]

Daddy (that's a really weird handle btw):

I haven't said one damn word about McCain's behavior during captivity.

The real tragedy for McCain is that his captivity was his finest work. Since that time, he's pretty well a loser.

[Danube of Thought]

"I defy you to correct one thing in it."

See my post above concerning all the POW's being offered early release.

[Daddy]

It's what my kids call me.

[Great Banana]

Of course, McCain made up the story. It's a complete lie fabricated to dupe gullible Christians.

Dope us how? McCain gave interviews when he first came back from Vietnam where he said that prayer and faith was important to keep him going? Were those lies then?

Is the other P.O.W. also lying?

Even if the story is exagerated, so what?

Take a look at McCain's actual life as opposed to his words.

What exactly does this mean? Are you saying that you have judged his christianity and find it wanting? I love how leftists who hate religion are such experts on who is a good christian.

If you want religious hypocrasy see Bill Clinton. the fact that McCain doesn't spout off about religion very often hardly means he is not religious.

That Free Republic called him out first is the key.

Really? the key to what? Are you stating that you believe that everything that the Free Republic says is gospel truth? I haven't been to FR in years, but I'd bet they are supporting McCain over Obama (even if holding their nose while they did it). Does that mean you support McCain over Obama?

Why exactly did real actual conservatives used to hate mcCain?

- Campaign Finance;
- his stance against tax cuts;
- his stance for illegal immigration;
- his stance on global warming; and
- his gang-of-ten compromise on judges.

Obama is hardly going to win over conservative with his views on these issues, so arguing to us that McCain was not a conservative favorite (we know) is not going to persuade us that Obama should be president.

[Danube of Thought]

"Since that time, he's pretty well a loser."

Retired as a Captain, USN; elected to the US House of Representatives; elected to multiple terms in the US Senate. Nominated by the Republican Party for President of the United States. Some loser.

[Sara]

So Hardy, the fact that all the POW accounts say that McCain led them in Christmas services and prayer, that he was known as one of the hard resistors, and that the U.S. government bestowed on him commendation after commendation for his leadership and honor is all a lie?

You are pathetic.

[Hardy har har]

Can you read? I said earlier to vote for McCain if you want, just don't be a sucker about it.

[Danube of Thought]

I'd also pointed out that he adopted a child from Mother Theresa's orphanage, about which you will not hear much fanfare. But it sure doesn't seem to be the act of a "loser."

[Sara]

You can read about the "loser" in the citations and commendations first hand:

John McCain's Navy Records

[Cecil Turner]

I defy you to correct one thing in it.

What's to correct? It's all fluff. The well-known POW timeline interspersed with claims McCain was a "Wild man," "hot head," and hogging all the POW press. A rather silly claim he "represents the entrenched and bankrupt policies" . . . as if Butler's former POW status gives him special insight into what McCain's long senate career represents.

The guy is a leftist anti-war activist (convert, apparently, which generally means fanatic). Not surprisingly, he doesn't like McCain. Again, he could've written the short bio and left it at that. The fact you're impressed with it suggests . . . that you're a lefty as well. Gee, isn't that persuasive.

[Great Banana]

I said earlier to vote for McCain if you want, just don't be a sucker about it.

Well, you vote for Obama if you want, just don't pretend that the guy has any experience or qualifications - or that you have any idea what his political philosophy is (i.e., is he a moderate, far-left progressive, or full on marxist)?.

[Danube of Thought]

"I said earlier to vote for McCain if you want, just don't be a sucker about it."

We're certainly grateful for your permission to vote as we like. (Note that Phil Butler doesn't say he's voting for Obama, but maybe he's awaiting your approval to do so.)

And of course we treasure your invaluable advice.

[Hardy har har]

"It's what my kids call me."

Fine. I'm not your kid though. So for me to address you as Daddy is, well, weird.

But it's no big deal.

Anyway, I am just a troll. Bye and everyone have a good day.

[Hardy har har]

"The guy is a leftist anti-war activist...The fact you're impressed with it suggests . . . that you're a lefty as well."

Yep. And anytime you encounter some mouth-foaming let's bomb Iran rightist war monger you drop your drawers.

So we're even. Later.

[Sara]

I would draw attention to his 2nd Legion of Merit award where it is mentioned that he served as Chaplain and provided spiritual guidance, instilled constructive rehabilitation and conducted religious services to his fellow POWs.

[Great Banana]

To be honest, my guess is that the McCain cross story is probably a fabrication (i.e, maybe it happened to someone else and he is claiming it to himself) or at least an exageration of what happened.

Unfortunately, politicians do this all the time, exagerate or creat little "incidents of great meaning" into their biographies. Or, in the same vein, they create people and give them stories - a la Gore's old lady who had to chose between food and medicine or Hillary's woman who did in childbirth - to make a point.

It is argument by anecdote, and I have never much cared for it.

But, if the McCain cross story did turn out to be a proveable fabrication or exaggeration and this is the worse thing McCain does - it is hardly something that is going to change many, if any, votes.

And, frankly, I wonder if the story itself changed any votes. At best, it helped to solidify his base, but I doubt it persuaded anyone to vote for McCain who was not going to do so already.