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August 25, 2008

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bad

Beat that drum TM!!

BumperStickerist

Tom,

Ayers is worse than "unapologetic", Bill Ayers is a wistful terrorist.

-

matt

Okay, so now we know their kids went to school together in addition to Ayers hosting Obama's 1st political fundraiser and that they served on the board of CAC together, and that Obama somehow doesn't mention his time at CAC in his resume....that sounds like they knew each other pretty well and may have discussed the problematic nature of their association at some time in the past....

Thomas Collins

The ad doesn't focus on Ayres, but on criticisms of McCain, and ends with a photo of McCain and Bush together. I think that Oh-Ohs ad people served him well. There really is no good explanation for Oh-Ohs cavorting with Ayres, so not dealing with the relationship in detail is probably the best approach.

I think that Oh-Oh has a better chance of diverting attention from Ayres than he did with Wright, because Ayres is likely to remain silent.

bad
The public match can include new public dollars, as well as existing dollars and in-kind contributions that are specifically redirected to achieve the purposes of the Chicago Annenberg Project.

Inquiring minds want to know exactly how much public money was redirected to a failing program.

bad

Okay, so now we know their kids went to school together...

The two families children are not at all the same age. They may have attended the same school but during different years.

clarice

Ayres kids, including Chesa Boudin who he took custody of when his parents went to jail for their roles in the Weathermen thuggery, are all grown--far older than the Obama girls. You got trapped by a sophisticated lie. The response was that they went to the same schools--not that they went there at the same time.

MayBee

matt- the problem with Axelrod's explanation is that Obama's and Ayers's children do not go to school together. Ayers's children are well out of grammar school.
Some would call that a lie, but the Obama campaign said Axelrod meant "Ayers was still active in the Obama children's school".

MayBee

clarice- I call it an unsophisticated lie because he used present tense. They "attend" the same schools. Not even they "have attended" the same schools.

Anonymous Liberal

Tom, as someone who respects you, it pains me to see you treating this as if it's anything other than very ugly partisan crap. That 527 commercial on Ayers is flat out despicable. It's clear and transparent purpose is to imply that Obama is a terrorist, even going as far as to invoke 9/11. This is highly toxic, highly reckless stuff. It's the kind of stuff that's going to inspire some nutjob to assassinate Obama.

Not only that, but the notion that Obama's association with Ayers says anything about Obama's own political views is beneath your level of intelligence. It's not as if Obama's life is a black hole. He's a relatively young man and he's been in the spotlight to some degree ever since law school. Many people, including a number of prominent conservatives, have known him for a long time. They knew him in law school. They knew him at Columbia. And many of them have said publicly that the Obama they knew then was the same thoughtful pragmatist they know now, a guy with very mainstream views. To put it simply, there is absolutely no evidence at all that Obama has ever held radical leftist views.

I'm sure if we went back through John McCain's past we can find that he knew some people that are pretty reactionary in their views. He may even have served on some committees with them. That doesn't say a damn thing about his own political views, though, nor would I ever suggest otherwise.

This whole line of attack is beneath your intelligence.


MeTooThen

TM,

One of the misconceptions re: Obama and Chicago is the notion that somehow he is a product of the Democratic Machine here.

He is not.

Daley and the Regular Machine had pushed for Dan Hines to be the nominee for Senate. At the time Obama was a virtual unknown.

The Machine fought hard to defeat Obama but once elected, they capitulated but did not seem to kowtow to him.

Even now, the strange recent press conference answers re: Ayers shows how Daley is a loyal Dem foot-soldier, but remains unwilling to go all the way to the mat for Barack Hussein Obama II.

Daley fought against the school reform that was the CAC (despite the powerful Pritzker and Crown family involvements.)

That the reforms were a failure is now part of the MSM news-not-fit-to-print.

Imagine (yes, as if only) BHO was a Republican tied to a former domestic terrorist who spent $110M on a failed education reform.

All education reform failure - All the time.

Again, as if only.

Just sayin'.

Rick Ballard

"Ayers was still active in the Obama children's school".

Helping the Young Pioneers achieve Eagle Marxist status by enrolling them as Junior Block Commissars in the Turn Chicago Commie Challenge.

MeTooThen

TM,

By the way, there is MUCH more to the story re: David Axelord, Michelle Obama, and the U of C Hospital.

David Axelrod's father-in-law was a professor at the U of C school of medicine.

Axelrod was WAY connected to the U of C Hospital and if a really inspired and intrepid reporter would only "follow the money" there's a potentially powerful story there.

Just sayin'

The Ace

but the notion that Obama's association with Ayers says anything about Obama's own political views is beneath your level of intelligence

Translation:
You can't speak to the fact that Obama launched his political career at Ayers' home.

there is absolutely no evidence at all that Obama has ever held radical leftist views.

Really?


n any case, deploring these convictions in Hawaii was an African-American poet and journalist by the name of Frank Marshall Davis, who was certainly in the orbit of the CP – if not a member – and who was born in Kansas and spent a good deal of his adult life in Chicago, before decamping to Honolulu in 1948 at the suggestion of his good friend Paul Robeson. Eventually, he befriended another family – a Euro-American family – that had migrated to Honolulu from Kansas and a young woman from this family eventually had a child with a young student from Kenya East Africa who goes by the name of Barack Obama, who retracing the steps of Davis eventually decamped to Chicago. In his best selling memoir ‘Dreams of my Father’, the author speaks warmly of an older black poet, he identifies simply as "Frank" as being a decisive influence in helping him to find his present identity as an African-American, a people who have been the least anticommunist and the most left-leaning of any constituency in this nation

Don't worry, you don't have an answer.

I'm sure if we went back through John McCain's past we can find that he knew some people that are pretty reactionary in their views.

Hilarious.
Now wanting to blow up the Pentagon is "reactionary" or whatever.

He may even have served on some committees with them

Or, he may not have.
McCain's adult life has been far more public than Obama's. So go to it, clown.

that 527 commercial on Ayers is flat out despicable.

Translation:
It is effective.

boris

the notion that Obama's association with Ayers says anything about Obama's own political views is beneath

What does it say that the radicals, socialists and communists like Obama so much? They sure don't like me and I don't blame them.

narciso

There's a simple reason for his association with Ayers. Ayers, the very model of the vanguard, enlightened elite; the radical he had sought out at Occidental, who specialized in the 'propaganda of the deed'; not just words, a dissafected scion, of the rich like Fidel, Che,Fonseca,
his father owned Con Ed; believe that ends justify the means; and like CarlosMarighela;
the Brazilian born auteur of urban guerilla warfare, if that means bombing an officer's club dance, the Pentagon, the NYPD headquarters, so be it for hope and change, meaning the 'end to racism', "American Imperialism in South East Asia" Ayers, never really figured how those whole followed Marighela in Brazil, probably kept the junta around for at least a decade, in Chile, the MIR served as a pretext for Pinochet's permanence, in Uruguay,
Bordaberry'sAuto coup; and Argentina, the dreaded "Proceso". In fact the infamous "Operation Condor, was in fact the response to the guerillas JCR cross border coalition Ironically, if that bomb had gone off at Ft. Dix, it would likely have ended most liberal support for the Weatherman, for a generation; the case of Karlton Armstrong and U. Wisconsin ROTC building bombing is a microcosm of this effect. The Huston Plan would probably have carte blanche support.

The Ace

This whole line of attack is beneath your intelligence.

Your entire post contained no intelligence.

but the notion that Obama's association with Ayers says anything about Obama's own political views

It is inarguable they share the same views. Which is of course why Obama is lying about his association with Ayers.

Isn't it funny how you leftists always seem to associate with America haters yet are so "patriotic"?
I'm sure it is some big coincidence or misunderstanding.

Rick Ballard

Ed Rendell chewed the media out yesterday for not bothering to vet The (Red) One. That was after the warning he gave concernning the fact that PA blue collars weren't going to vote for him. Ever.

The progs should have listened a little more closely to Ed. They don't own any firehoses big enough to put this one out.

And Obama, The Abortionist's Best Friend And A Baby's Worst Enemy, still isn't even in play.

It will be.

clarice

As late as 2001 Ayres was still saying that he only regrets he hadn't caused more havoc as a Weatherman and trampling on the flag.
Now, you tell me, AL. what sort of patriot willingly associates with a pig like that?

Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet

Boy this time, TM really hit a nerve. Someone new has been called to attempt feeble rebuttal.

BTW, Teddy is really wound up tonight. His, complexion, alas, is no longer ruddy. But he gave a great performance.

He is a pol's pol whatever else you want to say about him. It runs in the blood. Honey Fitz would be proud.

bad

Today we are all Rove boys.

sbw

Anonymous Liberal, can you conceive of the possibility that Obama may have good reason to minimize his association with Bill Ayers, and that under Obama's executive leadership of CAC, Ayers seems to have used the system to abuse the system?

No? Well suppose that the CAC grant were used to funnel say, I don't know, $175,000, to one's radical compatriots, to create credentials so that one could pass, like itinerant taxi driver Mike Klonsky, as an educationist of the Ward Churchill flavor. Might that not be suspect as use and abuse?

PaulL

Obama has a smart team. Smart and tough. And they are not, NOT! going to be Swiftboated. That's what cost Kerry the presidency, remember, that and Diebold.

Obama is going to refute every true charge made against him, and within 24 hours. He is not going to count on his friends in the MSM keeping quiet about Ayers. How well did silence work for Kerry?

It was a very effective McCain ad. I mean, a very effective Obama ad, sorry.

Twok

No prior Democrat candidate, from Gore to Kerry to Hillary Clinton, had so many past ties with characters as unsavory as Ayers and Wright.

At least with Gore, Kerry, and Hillary, we knew that their closest ties were not with people who were shockingly and openly anti-US. Norman Hsu, Teresa Heinz's gaffes, and Rielle Hunter are hardly as worrisome as Ayers and Wright.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

I am crossposting this:

Okay, here is Rich Lowry of NRO, who is reporting his conversation with Steve Schmidt, the attack dog of the McCain campaign:

Just got off the phone with Steve Schmidt, who had this to say about the Obama Ayers ad: That they've made a strategic decision to air a commercial about William Ayers is perplexing. I don't understand it, but put that aside. The ad is misleading. It states the McCain campaign is running an ad on the issue and it's not. This a pattern of attacking from a platform of disingenuousness when Obama accuses his opponent of attacking when he's not, in an attempt to disqualify the issue from the debate. Here's Obama's problem with regard to Ayers. When he was asked directly, Obama described Ayers as just a guy who lives in his neighborhood. We know that's not accurate. Before we get to the place where we can ask, 'Why does Barack Obama have a relationship with an unrepentant terrorist?' we have to ask, 'Why is Barack Obama not being forthcoming about his relationship?' This is what he has to realize: He's a candidate for president of the United States of America. He's not in a state senate race where he can disqualify all his opponents from running. He's deluding himself if he doesn't think his relationship with an unrepentant domestic terrorist who was part of this viscous, crack-pot group will give the American people pause. If he does, he's being very naïve. And he's being misleading. It says a lot about Barack Obama. John McCain is not running an ad on Ayers and William Ayers was not just someone who lived in his neighborhood.
Anonymous Liberal

Tom, lest you need any more proof that you're venturing into some pretty nutty territory, you need look no further than your own comment section! Do you people really believe that Obama is some sort of secret radical leftist? Really? Is every opinion he's ever expressed in his adult life an elaborate decades long lie? You're like the 9/11 truthers. Everything is a conspiracy! Trust no one!

Why don't you just accept the fact that this is an election between a guy who supports the Democratic platform and a guy who supports the Republican platform? There are no communists or nazis here, no leftist and no reactionaries. Just a mainstream Democrat and a mainstream Republican. Sorry it's not more exciting than that, but that's the truth. Grow up.

clarice

We don't accept that "fact" because it is not a fact at all.. It's a lie.
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:V0xrHY1UirsJ:www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/017007.php+Obama+leftist&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us>Obama is a hard core leftist

Joan

TM: I doubt that soccer moms or anyone else will be thrilled to learn that Obama hung with unapologetic terrorists, talked about school reform, and achieved nothing.

Mr. Maguire, I love that, I love that!!

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Anon: I don't think there is anything secret at all about Obama being a leftist. All you have to do is look at his friends and listen to his words.

Joan

Collins: I think that Oh-Oh has a better chance of diverting attention from Ayres than he did with Wright, because Ayres is likely to remain silent.

Not if we could get an ad that shows Ayers slouching proudly and stomping on our flag!

Rick Ballard

Just a mainstream Democrat who spent twenty years in a racist church listening to anti-American sermons while pursuing political power by any means possible after having served in leftwing Alinskyite organizations before going on the cuff with a slumlord who later made the purchase of his home possible.

Get real. Mainstream Marxist on the take fits better.

Chris

Al,
I heard McCain once cavorted with that Goldwater character. He was pretty reactionary back in the day, or so LBJ said. And if Barack is so mainstream, why aren't they buying in Ohio and Michigan and PA and...?

O/T watching Rachel Maddow do a full-on nutroot-KOS diary on MSLSD. This is riveting. We have a network (cable) news channel actually advocating for Obama. This is the inverse of the lib's Fox News caricature. Must-see TV!

Reactionary

Anonymous Liberal - "mainstream Democrat"? Obama is further to the Left than Socialist Bernie Sanders (according to National Journal).

Bod

Anonymous Liberal,

You may have a point, because he may actually be a radical leftist. It'd be nice to find out one way or the other, wouldn't it? Wouldn't that be in the interest of the democrat party too?

RichatUF

This is not the failed executive leadership with a domestic terrorist you're looking for...

bgates

It's the kind of stuff that's going to inspire some nutjob to assassinate Obama. Assassinate a President? Why,
I
never
heard of
such a

Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet

AL:

You might consider either making substantive comments on the merits of BHO's extensive contacts with Ayers in connection with the 100 million dollar CAC grant (as disclosed in public documents identified by Prof. Diamond, a liberal democrat), or scurrying back under whatever rock you came from.

Please understand, commenters here are ahead of the curve on this story, and it will get out. You can count on it.

Cheers,

Thomas Collins

Anonymous Liberal pointed out:

"I'm sure if we went back through John McCain's past we can find that he knew some people that are pretty reactionary in their views. He may even have served on some committees with them. That doesn't say a damn thing about his own political views, though, nor would I ever suggest otherwise."

Anonymous Liberal, if you have evidence of McCain having been associated with folks involved in terrorist bombings, and the extent of the association is comparable to the Obama-Ayres interactions, please post a comment on your evidence.

Although I don't know your political views, from your "stage name" it appears you consider yourself to be a liberal. As such, wouldn't you acknowledge that TM's efforts to "let the sun shine in" on the Obama/Ayres relationship is consistent with liberalism's support of open information flow? Whatever one may think of the 527 running Obama/Ayres ads, certainly TM's approach to this has been sober and balanced. In fact, I would hope that liberals use the Ayres story, whatever his involvement with Obama turns out to be, to reexamine how so many liberals came to support leftist causes which stood for everything liberalism stood against.


narciso

His would be babysitters and step parents were American Montoneros; his preacher for 20 years is a liberation theologist, among his other associates are the friendly neigborhood ex-Maoist taxi driver. Hamas thinks he's cool, so do the Sandinistas, Ortega, the FARC, and Ahmadinejad. His former? advisors like Lake, who contributed to the surrender of at least three American allies; and their replacement with Marxist or Islamist regimes. Malley, who thinks that Hamas can be dealt with. That's just his associates. Among his campaign pledges to a Iowa peace group are dismantling much of our military, he was against telecoms assisting the government in tracking terrorists (do you think his turnabout on that issue is permanent, please, don't make me laugh) Facing the Russian 'rape' of Georgia, he decided to split the difference and blame the victim, with some mild reproach of Russia's actions.

dorkafork

Many people, including a number of prominent conservatives, have known him for a long time. They knew him in law school. They knew him at Columbia. And many of them have said publicly that the Obama they knew then was the same thoughtful pragmatist they know now, a guy with very mainstream views.

Name two.

Ranger

Anon,

Obama has described himself as a man who chose his friends "very carefully." Yet, he is friends with unrepentant domestic terroists and preachers who litterally call on God to damn America. I think it is fair to wonder, and maybe even initially concluded that if he carefully chose these people as friends, he must have some sympathy, if not total agreement with their views.

Soylent Red

Oh c'mon Rick...

Barack was just doing what he had to do to feed his babies.

Don't hate the playa. Hate the game.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Obama: Leave My Terrorist Friends Alone!

The lovely Ms. Dohrn, Mrs. Bill Ayers, is not just the hostess of Barack Obama's first fundraiser, but an enthusiastic fan of the way Charles Mason's cult murdered a woman who was almost nine months pregnant. Dorhn is suspected of multiple terrorist acts, including building and planting the bomb that detonated at San Francisco's Park Police Station, killing one police officer and blinding another.

Bill Ayers admits directly being involved in attacks on New York City Police Headquarters, the Capitol building, and the Pentagon.

Fellow Weathermen had 100 sticks of dynamite and boxes of roofing nails they were making into pipe bombs to massacre revelers at an non-commissioned officers dance at Fort Dix. Ayer's girlfriend at the time, Diana Oughton, was building one of the nail-filled bombs when it went off in her hands. Instead of unsuspecting soldiers and their innocent dates, these terrorists killed only themselves, that time.

Dohrn worked at the law firm of Sidley Austin thanks to Ayers family connections with the firm. Other famous lawyers at Sidley Austin you might know include summer associate Barack Obama and Michelle Robinson, later Michelle Obama.

Funny, how the incestuous circle ties itself in knots

M. Simon

Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet,

You will esp. like the Scarry Larry stuff. It is a legal brief laying out how ever word in the ad was researched and supported with doc.

M. Simon

Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet,

You will esp. like the Scarry Larry stuff. It is a legal brief laying out how ever word in the ad was researched and supported with doc.

Rob

AL,

Well I guess we can hope that the opinions that Obama has expressed are lies. Considering that he remains against the surge, and his abortion position is atrocious then you have to hope he's lying.

Actually there are no conspiracy theories here. The problem is that the established facts look none to good. Obama's inability to address those facts make it look worse.

Anonymous Liberal

Please. Those national journal rankings are totally bogus (the methodology is ridiculous). Plus, even if Obama was the "most liberal Democrat in the Senate," that doesn't say very much. The Senate is hardly a bastion of radicalism. That's like saying Amare Stoudamire is the shortest center in the NBA (he's still pretty tall).

And if you're curious what Obama "really thinks," it's no big mystery. Go read either of his two memoirs or any of the countless policy speeches he's given over the years. This isn't a conspiracy folks. He's just a Democrat.

Fat Man

"Is every opinion he's ever expressed in his adult life an elaborate decades long lie?"

What opinions? He has kept his opinions pretty much to himself and has worked fairly hard at not leaving a paper trail.

The only evidence of his opinions is his associations. And it is not evidence that could lead to any thought that BHO is anything but a hard core leftist.

M. Simon

Obama is going to refute every true charge made against him

Heh.

M. Simon

"I sought out Marxist professors".

From his bio. In his own words.

bgates

if you're curious what Obama "really thinks," it's no big mystery
He's been for and against NAFTA, said Iran was and wasn't a threat, offered to meet Iranians with and without preconditions, called for a united/part-Israeli-part-Palestinian Jerusalem, extolled and rejected public campaign financing, and said Wright was as close as his own grandmother about 2 weeks before he was cast off.

That's within the past year, and off the top of my head.

On Iraq, he's gone from dead set against to essentially sharing the President's positioning to dead set against over a span of 6 years, and the year is not yet done.

MayBee

AL: Not only that, but the notion that Obama's association with Ayers says anything about Obama's own political views is beneath your level of intelligence.

How do you know? You say his life isn't a black hole, but to a great extent it is. He, by his own choice, has covered up his relationship with Ayers. How in the world can you so confidently say there is nothing there, and that we know everything we need to know about the man based on his own, self-serving books?

Anonymous Liberal

Dorkafork says:

name two

Okay. Try reading this article or anything of the many other articles written about Obama's law school days. No one who knew him then says that his views were in any way radical. Quite the opposite actually. He was the guy the conservatives on the law review threw their support behind because they thought he was open-minded.

Ken Mitchell

AnonyLib: Bill Ayers _set_ bombs. McCain _DROPPED_ bombs. There's a difference.

MayBee

AL- You know Obama has asked friends and classmates not to discuss him without permission, right? Per Ryan Lizza. Who then got left off the plane to Europe.

sbw

Anonymous Liberal: Do you people really believe that Obama is some sort of secret radical leftist?

I said no such thing. I said Obama was an enabler or an idiot.

Tim

Well, AnonLib is probably of the "Hey, he's not to the Left of me, so he can't be a Leftist!" stripe, but most of us aren't. Obama's as liberal a Democratic nominee as we've seen since McGovern (how did that turn out, against a guy who resigned to stave off impeachment, mind you?). I have an inveterate fear of an Obama presidency, but am feeling better by the day, as more and more of his actual, you know, activities and thoughts become known. Believe me, if we ever get a grip of this guy's policy acumen, you're going to see a big surge in the, "You mean, he's black?!" response. Once everyone realizes we wouldn't have voted for the guy had he been the color of Martha White flour, the racism charge goes out the window!

Joan

AL: No one is saying that there is some dark "conspiracy" or that Obama is a "terrorist." What people object to is Obama's choice of contemporaries, his utter disregard for what makes this country great, his disdain for patriotism, his attempts to rewrite his past associations, his love of internationalism, his "we are the one we've been waiting for" default personality.

And, as for your insulting accusations in your first post tonight, you are the despicable one, not TM.

ben

"Just a mainstream Democrat..."

So delusional it's scary...I personally know two types of Democrats...those that know that Obama is a hard core leftist and plan to vote for him anyway and those that know he is a hardcore leftist and don't plan to vote for him. Anonymous Liberal, easy on that Kool-Aid.

Ranger

He was the guy the conservatives on the law review threw their support behind because they thought he was open-minded.

Posted by: Anonymous Liberal | August 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM

Well, I think if they had known that the phrase "this is a world where... white folks greed runs a world in need" had brought him to tears of holy revelation, they might have had a different view. And that is part of the problem. Obama, by his own admition, has worked very hard his entire life to show people a persona he thought they were comfortable with, changing it with each new group he encounters.

RichatUF

AL-

Go read either of his two memoirs or any of the countless policy speeches he's given over the years.

Like this:

"To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists."

"Malcolm’s discovery toward the end of his life, that some whites might live beside him as brothers in Islam, seemed to offer some hope of eventual reconciliation."

"If nationalism could create a strong and effective insularity, deliver on its promise of self-respect, then the hurt it might cause well-meaning whites, or the inner turmoil it caused people like me, would be of little consequence."

I'm sure there is much more. And those speeches-the one in St. Paul where he said he would push back the tides and heal the planet?

Anonymous Liberal

I personally know two types of Democrats...those that know that Obama is a hard core leftist and plan to vote for him anyway and those that know he is a hardcore leftist and don't plan to vote for him.

Translation: I don't actually know any real Democrats.

True Change

Meth heads hate Obama! Police arrest paranoid psychosis pals!! Maybe it was the crack sentence lobby?

Obama needs the assassination thing it should get him a job, soon the police will just start shooting weavers like they did for Bill.

Did Obama have anything to do with Suriname? Maybe it was the ugly lobby that screwed up the food?

Nenicho

Mrs. O is talking about her love of conuntry. Everyone stood and applauded. I guess they were worried she might stumble and admit what she really thought. Now she's telling about all of Obams's resume. This shouldn't last long.,

Pofarmer

or any of the countless policy speeches he's given over the years

Hope and change is a policy? Who knew?

Thomas Collins

AL asserted:

"This isn't a conspiracy folks."

No, it's not a conspiracy, but it is an attempt to muffle an association with a terrorist the extent of which association, if, say, existing in the case of McCain with an individual engaging in terrorist acts to promote right wing causes, would likely have sunk the McCain campaign.

I do think there is a way for Obama to put this issue to rest, however. It would be for Obama to state clearly, in his acceptance speech, that he showed terrible judgment in his association with a domestic terrorist, that he rejects what the Weathermen stood for, and that the country is blessed for the fact that a leftist government did not emerge from the trauma of the sixties.

Pofarmer

or any of the countless policy speeches he's given over the years

Hope and change is a policy? Who knew?

bgates

Try reading this article
OK. Now you try it. There is one Democrat quoted as saying of "some conservative friends", not "that they agree with him on policy, but that they feel he hears them out."

So you
-did not name anybody, but
-had second-hand descriptions, which
-still did not paint Obama as a "pragmatist", but as a "listener".

ben

"Do you people really believe that Obama is some sort of secret radical leftist?"

No, just radical leftist suffices, thank you.

I think we should reverse this to make it easier. Name an issue where Obama is NOT to the left of mainstream America. But phhhlease don't say he is for executing child rapists.

goy

- ... the so-called "Fact Check" at the Obama website does not disclose that Obama and Ayers worked together on a failed education reform project from 1995 to 2001.

The reason Obama wants to stick to the Ayers-was-a-descpicable-terrorist-when-I-was-8-years-old tack is that further investigation into the Annenberg fiasco will demonstrate how completely he botched his ONLY stint in an executive capacity. It will also clearly show that he supports education "reform" - as envisioned by the guy who wrote this:

“We can’t have education without revolution. We have tried peace education for 1,900 years and it has failed. Let us try revolution and see what it will do now.” ... Education is not preparation for life, but rather education is life itself ,an active process in which everyone— students and teachers– participates as co-learners.
This is the future of public education under Obama - an amplified version of what we have now, which is already incapable of consistently producing literate, numerate, historically aware graduates.

Chris

AL,
"...Plus, even if Obama was the "most liberal Democrat in the Senate," that doesn't say very much. The Senate is hardly a bastion of radicalism..."

I told you earlier, McCain used to hang out with that Goldwater guy. Obama's running for prez, not town council or mayor. What are the questions a candidate for the highest office shouldn't have to answer.

Rev Wright is David Duke. What Republican could run anywhere for town council, let alone president, having had a past association with the grand wizard? It. Could. Not. Happen. Ayres is Rudolph, the abortion clinic bomber. What Republican could run anywhere having associated with Rudolph. Could. Not. Happen.

You might like to think that this guy is mainstream and I truly wish that he were. But guess what? He's not. Get used to it.

MayBee

AL- TM isn't focusing on the 527 ad at all- why are you. But I will add this:

That 527 commercial on Ayers is flat out despicable. It's clear and transparent purpose is to imply that Obama is a terrorist, even going as far as to invoke 9/11. This is highly toxic, highly reckless stuff. It's the kind of stuff that's going to inspire some nutjob to assassinate Obama.

Do you remember the ad by the NAACP that said because Bush didn't support a hate crime ad, James Byrd's daughter felt like her father was killed twice?
Do you remember the General Betrayus ad?
Have you seen the Code Pink protestors with blood on their hand approach Condi Rice at hearings?

bgates

I see that Obama’s campaign has written the Department of Justice demanding a criminal investigation of the “American Issues Project,” the group behind the ad Anonymous Coward doesn't like.

Typical Democrat, criminalizing speech he doesn't like. Not out of the mainstream of that party at all.

M. Simon

Go to the comments at Scarry Larry's - link above - and see what Obama is up too. The call it a full court silencing of opposition.

I think it will backfire.

Pofarmer

I personally know two types of Democrats...those that know that Obama is a hard core leftist and plan to vote for him anyway and those that know he is a hardcore leftist and don't plan to vote for him.

Translation: I don't actually know any real Democrats.

That pretty much sums up the Democrats out here in the hinterlands, especially if you look at recent straw polls. Apparently folks aren't buying the whole "Barack Hussein is just any other ole Democrat" routine. Better luck next time.

Pofarmer

Of Course, some of it could be buyers remorse on Clair McCaskill, too.

clarice

"That 527 commercial on Ayers is flat out despicable. It's clear and transparent purpose is to imply that Obama is a terrorist, even going as far as to invoke 9/11"

Maybe to you. But to everyone who is lucid and for whom English is their language, the ad only notes Obama's unsavory associate, Ayres, and notes why he is unsavory and why Obama tried to hide his relationahip with Ayres by lying about it.

bgates

AL, is Bill Ayers out of the mainstream of the Democratic party?

Paul

"...and said Wright was as close as his own grandmother about 2 weeks before he was cast off."

Well, then he tossed the grandmother off as well, so perhaps he *was* equally close to both.

miriam sawyer

The main outrage relating to Bill Ayers is that he is on the payroll of the University of Illinois. In other words, he's being paid by us stupid taxpayers.

And he has tenure. Only a bomb lobbed straight at him can get him off the public tit.

dorkafork

Okay. Try reading this article or anything of the many other articles written about Obama's law school days. No one who knew him then says that his views were in any way radical. Quite the opposite actually. He was the guy the conservatives on the law review threw their support behind because they thought he was open-minded.

Nobody said anything about his political views except that they figured out he was a liberal. They thought he was a good listener.

I took your advice and looked up another article on Obama's law school days. From the NYT:

Surrounded by students who enjoyed the sound of their own voices, Mr. Obama cast himself as an eager listener, sometimes giving warring classmates the impression that he agreed with all of them at once.

Friends say he did not want anyone to assume they knew his mind — and because of that, even those close to him did not always know exactly where he stood. It is a tendency that could prove perilous on the campaign trail, as voters, rivals and the news media try to fix the positions of a senator with only two years in office.

“He then and now is very hard to pin down,” said Kenneth Mack, a classmate and now a professor at the law school, referring to the senator’s on-the-one-hand, on-the-other-hand style.

bobby b

How about some context here?

(But first, for some other context: I'm no anonalib trolling around to squelch fact. Hardcore R here, voting for McCain 'cuz there's no R running, and (gasp!) I carry a gun, which I think PROVES I'm no "progressive.")

I'm in my fifties. When Ayers was doing the nasty stuff he wishes he did more than he did, I, along with most of my generation, was basically on his side, sometimes making polite noises about how we should be nonviolent, but, inside, cheering that someone had the balls to go after the establishment, which (we knew!) was despicably trying to annihilate the peaceloving peoples of VN, who only wanted those same rights of self-determination that we took for granted . . . For my part, I led a branch of SDS'ers, took part in protests, wrote arguments for the papers, and grew long hair to be different just like everyone else.

But, lo and behold, as I then grew up, (after we fled from Vietnam, led bravely by the NYT), I had the chance to do some studying about the region, and its peoples, history, economics, and whatnot. Guess what? We were wrong. In spite of some fairly dishonorable steps taken in the process of going in and staying in and fighting, we really WERE fighting for truth and justice and beauty.

But my generation, in our teens and twenties, knew better, and we didn't even have to study to know that! We were THAT good!

But, as I say, most of us grew up, and found that we were horribly wrong, and simply stopped talking about the themes that drove a big part of our lives for almost a decade. Yeah, out of shame.

Ayers, though . . . He STILL thinks the military-industrial complex directed us into the war for the profit, and I bet he still thinks that the Communists were welcomed into RVN with open arms, and relief at the long-awaited peace.

Point being, he wasn't some evil terrorist. (Hell, their signature action was to call in warnings on their bombs, to avoid death and injury.) He was as misguided as the rest of us were back then.

Difference is, most of us grew up.

So, BO hangs with a crowd lost in its 60's fantasies, lost in a haze where their good intentions are enough to make up for their gawdawful performance, where it doesn't matter that they, almost directly (if you listen to several of the NVN generals post-war), caused the deaths of millions, because, after all, . . .

They meant well.

bgates

AL, what are some of the many opinions Obama has expressed that make you sure he's a normal, mainstream kind of guy?

Jim Miller

Al - Let me try to treat your argument with respect.

First, let me note that there has been a long discussion (some of it here) about Obama's true beliefs -- assuming he has any. There were, I thought, two main schools of thought on that question. One school thought that he was simply out for himself, and that he would adopt whatever views he needed to succeed in politics wherever he was.

After some study, I came to agree with the other main school, the school that he believes that he is, at heart a leftist, that he chose to follow Alinsky, pick far left friends, live in Hyde Park, et cetera because that was what he believed.

But he is also an adopted son of the Chicago machine. And so I think that Freddoso has it about right: "He is the product of a marraige between two of the least attractive parts of Democratic politics -- the hard core radicalism of the 1960s era Chicago's machine politics." (p. xi)

I think it is hard to deny either of those parts of his character. He has simply been involved -- by his own choice -- with too many people on the hard left for me to believe that he does not share many of their views. And he was too closely tied to Tony Rezko, and other crooks tied to the machine, for me to believe that he didn't value those ties, too.

There is no doubt that he can pose as a soft-spoken moderate and a reformer. But that should not surprise us because in one of his two books, he tells how he learned to fool whites, by concealing his anger and his true views.

His wife, however, never learned that trick and sometimes shows us what he really feels. (And it is worth remembering that her father was a functionary, a precinct captain, I think, in the Chicago machine.)

Please don't take my argument farther than I have. I am not saying that Obama is a terrorist or even that he has any great sympathy for left wing terrorists of the Ayers sort. (Though he may make an exception, as so many leftists do, for Palestinian terrorists.) But it does seem to be true that he shares some of their goals, as many do in their neighborhood.

And sometimes his true views come out, as when he was unable to give that 7 year old a positive explanation for him running for president.

To refute this argument, you would have to show that he had many close friends and associates who were not on the far left, or working with the machine -- but I don't know of any. It is probably significant that he did not make many friends in the law school, where he taught for so long.

And you would have to explain why he picked, as his vice running mate, the senator with the 3rd most leftist National Journal ranking -- despite Biden's attacks on Obama.

Sometimes it is best to accept the obvious. Almost certainly, Obama has chosen to associate with people on the hard left, at least since high school, because that is what Obama believes. In other words, apply Occam's Razor to the question.

ben

AL, why do you think HALF of Hillary's supporters are not supporting Obama. Because he is too mainstream? Go to http://justsaynodeal.com/index2.html and see what the PUMAS are thinking, especially the comments about Obama being too radical. If you think the election can be won with just the "REAL" democrats you know, the kool-aid democrats, you will be in for a big surprise come November.

goy

They meant well.

So did Che.

And that's the problem. Read Ayers' (and his son - Chesa's) stuff TODAY. He is Chavez' new best friend and a Marxist to the core. The policies he's espoused in ed. "reform" are part and parcel of that ideology: "education is revolution", which Obama supported (and to hear Michelle, they both still support).

Soylent Red

you will be in for a big surprise come November.

PUMA's might be quiet while he has his little debutante ball, but they don't have to vote for him. Assuming that they will is a mistake.

Nomination ≠ Election.

sbw

They meant well.

Sigh... Projection. YOU meant well so you believe THEY meant well.

You stopped short of declaring war, blowing up buildings, and (in Ayer's wife's case involved in) killing people.

Admit what you said was not thought out.


bgates

And you would have to explain why he picked, as his vice running mate, the senator with the 3rd most leftist National Journal ranking
Jim, I don't think the notion of knowing anything about Obama's views from his choice of running mate is allowed, either.

MikeS

I'm offended by the claim that McCain linked Obama to Ayers. Obama linked himself to Ayers and other scumbags in Chicago (Rezko, Wright, Klonsky, et.al.) As an adult, Obama attached himself to scumbags. McCain had nothing to do with it.

Mike

Whoa, wait a minute there Barack! His kids attend the same school as Ayers' kids? Hmm. How old are Obama's kids? How old is Ayers?

If they attended the same school, it surely wasn't at the same time, nor did Obama and Ayers show up at the same PTA meetings in the sort of casual, neighborhood relationship Obama would have one believe.

Joe Schmo

of course, the MSM will now run the Obama line of, "he has addressed the issue and it is time to move on."

bad

Joe, you sound so cynical. Any chance you are clinging bitterly to your guns and religion-- like me?

M. Simon

I just heard an interesting trial balloon.

Gen. Honore for VP.

AST

Obama is some phenomenon of politics if he was mentored by Ayers/Dorn and Jeremiah Wright and the Chicago Democratic Machine and came away without being affected by them. His whole campaign is selling socialism without calling it what it is.

The problem is that he doesn't seem to have a character of his own. He's a marionette who performs appealingly when he has a teleprompter, but when he's supposed to respond spontaneously, he hems and haws and sounds like he's never thought about questions like when a person's most basic rights come into existence. That's above his "pay grade?" If he becomes president, whose pay grade will be above his? It sounds like the real governing will be done by people who couldn't get elected president in a million years. That's what is starting to sink in, with the Ayers story, the Michelle gaffes, etc.

TruChag

Maybe Obama and Ayers first meetings had something to do with the 88 meeting when everyone decided Rice's WMD should be important and all OOs, like Plame, had to go to WMD school at Universities, which were leaked after that Russian security KGB second in command guy was assassinated. Oh ya, it was Ames who leaked the WMD 00 schools.

It's all education like the dems legislation that just went into Congress. It's all the old dems. Education is rEvolution. Sure these people weren't playing in Bolivia?


Michelle: Obama is a big international guy and it's okay if you don't understand him 'cause your some dumb hick form the mountains where they make funny babies.

World: Obama is a check. Write them you win.


SWarren

Hah!! Wouldn't I love to hear General Honore tell the Obama fans "You are stuck on stupid!!"

nick

JESUS H CHRIST

I was on a board with many people

and know only name of 1 because he die early!


you mother fucking racists pigs wont print this !

Elliott

AllahPundit says thank you to Team Obama.

That seems like an appropriate reaction to the latest in a series of unforced Ayers.

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