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August 10, 2008

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PeterUK

"saying talking makes Bush look weak?"

I'm saying talk is cheap if it is not consistent with behaviors."

When Bush invaded Iraq you were against that particular behaviour von Septic.

Rick Ballard

"Surgical strikes should follow STRICT TIMETABLES "

To allow all US citizens time to bend over and kiss their butts goodbye prior to seeing that "light brighter than a thousand suns"?

How about just shipping the Georgians a little humanitarian aid? You know, bread, butter, bandages, antitank weapons, orange juice, some meat and poultry, blankets, a dozen SAM batteries, fresh fruit and vegetables, two armored divisions from Poland and the Ukraine, tents, cooking utensils, diapers - all that kind of stuff.

It's a very interesting confrontation. While I don't count on the EU for much, I believe that the former Eastern block countries may prove to possess backbones. We'll see shortly.

bgates

Surgical strikes should follow STRICT TIMETABLES punishing incursions into Georgia followed by demands for withdrawal.
It's leftist Mad Libs.
Surgical strikes should follow AWOL FROM NATIONAL GUARD punishing incursions into Georgia followed by civil war.
Surgical strikes should follow NO WMDs punishing incursions into Georgia followed by make his daughters enlist.
Surgical strikes should follow DISTRACTION FROM AL QAEDA punishing incursions into Georgia followed by no exit strategy.

MayBee

It seems to me the world got a whole lot more outraged at Israel when they were bombing Lebanon.

Sue

Honestly, I'm scrambling trying to play catch up with this. Until this started last Thursday, I have to admit, I wasn't paying attention to what was happening in Georgia and Ossetia. Who is the bad guy here? Russia? Georgia? Ossetia? Bush? Well, yeah, Bush is a given, he is always the bad guy, whether it is hurricanes or terrorists, Bush is the bad guy. Are there any blogs covering this that you guys find reliable?

Ranger

BTW;

Surgical strikes should follow STRICT TIMETABLES punishing incursions into Georgia followed by demands for withdrawal.

Posted by: Semanticleo | August 11, 2008 at 06:24 PM

So I take it you think Obama is a total wus for just wanting to take this to the UNSC to sort out?

PeterUK

Mr Ballard,
There are ample Russian weapons to be had.None with "A present from Uncle Sam" on the box.
Demographically Russia is finished,realpolitik would be best served if the Bear were to have another Chechnya to bleed into the dirt in.
Afghanistan saw the body bags coming home to a Motherland that needs people.

Ranger

It seems to me the world got a whole lot more outraged at Israel when they were bombing Lebanon.

Posted by: MayBee | August 11, 2008 at 06:51 PM

Funny how that happens. Its almost as if people are more concerned about the ethnic background of the parties, rather than the actions they engage in.

Barney Frank

Oh, now you want to be all circumspect and responsible in your support of diplomacy.

Well, several thousand fusion warheads does tend to cause a little circumspection to those of us who are not hiding in the local library from the guys with the big net.
There are many sensible courses besides feckless jawboning and acts of war by our own armed forces.

Barney Frank

Are there any blogs covering this that you guys find reliable?

Sue,

Try the Belmont Club and smallwarsjournal.

bgates

Its almost as if people are more concerned about the ethnic background of the parties, rather than the actions they engage in.
I suppose you think ethnicity shouldn't matter?

RACIST!

Sue

Barney,

Thanks.

Ranger

Sue,

Here is a quick rundown-

Russia and Georgia were long standing allies dating back to Russia's entry into the region two centuries ago. They are both Eastern Right and the Georgians were happy to have a powerful friend to help them fend off Ottoman and Persian designs on their territory.

Near the end of the Soviet Union, Georgians were agitating, like many of the peoples of the smaller republics, for liberalization. Several demonstrators died in one incident. There is some evidence that the Soviets (read Russians as far as the Georgians are concerned) used some form of chemical agent on the crowd. This incident seriously damaged the relationship between Russia and Georgia.

After the breakup of the Soviet Union, Georgia was the only former 'original' Soviet Republic (the Baltic States were not incorporated into the Soviet Union until 1939, and then again in 1945) to refuse to join the CIS. In response, Russia facilitated uprising in Abkazia and South Ossetia to presure Georgia into falling back into the Russian orbit.

Georgian politics have been very rough since the end of the Soviet Union. Two presidents have been driven from office, one by force and the other by peaceful demonstrations. Putin's chosen candidate was the one driven from office by deomonstrations.

PeterUK

Sue,
EU Referendum.

Sue

Ranger,

Thanks.

Sue

My early conditioning has me rooting for Georgia. Anything Russia/Soviet Union does is suspect. But then, I worry I am being like Leo in his hatred of Bush. So, I have enough reading to get up to speed.

I can't believe Leo is calling on the US to do surgical strikes.

Semanticleo

"There are many sensible courses besides feckless jawboning and acts of war by our own armed forces."

Holy Moly. If there is any self-awareness within that unknown zone of yours? If so,
you must have thrown up in your mouth a little
after typing that.

It's interesting how bombing affects some people far away, while others need to feel it close to home before sensibility takes hold.

Semanticleo

"I can't believe Leo is calling on the US to do surgical strikes.'

Real threats call for desperate measures.

I would prefer stepping on Russia's economic toes, but Bush blew that on diplomatic gasbags. Too late for measured steps now.

Thanks Bush, for another international treat.

MayBee

Seman-
Please, I beg you. Give us a nice little paragraph about what Bush is doing wrong, and what you'd like to see done.
Are you saying Bush should either shut up OR he should attack Russia?

Ranger

Real threats call for desperate measures.

I would prefer stepping on Russia's economic toes, but Bush blew that on diplomatic gasbags. Too late for measured steps now.

Posted by: Semanticleo | August 11, 2008 at 07:25 PM

So you do think Obama is a wus for just wanting to dump this all on the UN to sort out.

Sue

I had forgotten, until I read it over at Belmont, that McCain called for Russia to be kicked out of the G8. If I didn't know before who I was voting for in November, I know now. (I knew, just sayin'.) Does the country really want a light weight like Obama in charge with Russia acting up?

Barney Frank

Russia and Georgia were long standing allies dating back to Russia's entry into the region two centuries ago.

Allies but not friends.

Semanticleo

"Please, I beg you."

MayBee:

1.) Bush should back up words with action.

2.)Demand Russia recede by a set date.

3.)Strike military targets remaining after such date.

I believe the bullets above are in the comments. Or are you fishing?

Soylent Red

Ranger:

Good rundown, but don't forget that since Georgia became independent, Mother Russia has been overtly and covertly meddling and instigating in internal Georgian politics.

Georgia is not wholly without sin WRT separatist movements, but this is a plain and simple power grab by Russia. Making the world safe for Gazprom, so to speak.

glasater

Cleo--I don't know what you would hit with those "surgical strikes".

Please explain?

glasater

OK--Got the military targets--but Russia is pretty big and where would you start?

bgates

So you do think
That's where you're wrong, Ranger. Whatever Obama does is right and whatever Bush does is wrong and if Obama and Bush agree on something neither of those reflexes change.

MayBee

So after the cold war, you seriously want to have a real war with nuclear-armed Russia?

Do you really support Obama? Do you think he would do such a thing?

Soylent Red

Maybee:

Hasn't Sematicleo established by now that anything Bush does is the wrong COA, beholden to Big Oil/Pharma/Brother, harmful to the planet and generally the work of a right bastard?

Why even ask what Semanticleo thinks? We already know.

In fact Semanticleo, why waste your precious energy posting what we already know you will say, when you could be devoting that energy toward texting all your cronies about the manifold wonders and mysteries of the Obamessiah?

Barney Frank

Holy Moly. If there is any self-awareness within that unknown zone of yours? If so,
you must have thrown up in your mouth a little
after typing that.


We need to choose a middle course in this instance because your course could very well put us on the path to a nuclear precipice.
The middle course in Iraq was what we tried from 1991 on and it was an abject failure.
We're all dying to know Cleo are you going down to volunteer tomorrow for the AF Academy so you can conduct some of those surgical strikes or are you just another one of those chicken hawks you're always on about?
And just for the record if all Bush does is jawbone this then I agree with you he is pathetic. Russia needs to pay a high price, but it needs to be calculated not reckless.

MayBee

What if all of Europe said, right this very minute, pull out tomorrow or we will not buy any of your fine natural gas.
We'll negotiate with someone else to ship it over to us.
There's time before winter for Europe to really take a stand.

Sue

MayBee,

The same Europe that is surrendering as we speak to Islam?

MayBee

I bet Russia stands down tomorrow or the next day.
They just need to fight a little more to make it look like they aren't listening to anybody else.

Sue

What I can't figure out is why Georgia took the action it took on Thursday? Did it think Russia wouldn't respond? Was there something happening that I haven't been able to locate that would explain Georgia's action?

MayBee

Hah, Sue.
I was thinking about the same Europe that complains that the US gets overly involved in world affairs. You know, the one Obama says doesn't cooperate with the rest of the world.
I thought maybe that Europe would be willing to do something to keep us out of their hair.

PeterUK

"Real threats call for desperate measures."

Before shoving a cruise missile up Putin's nose,you might like to see what he has pointed at you.
Secondly you might like to decide whether a Russian invasion is a direct threat to the US.
Or are you just waiting to roll out your "Not in My Name" T shirt again?

Ann

I posted a link to The Atlantic’s story on Hillary’s internal campaign memos up top under the scoring thread if anyone is interested in some fun reading.

MayBee

You know, the one Obama says doesn't cooperate with the rest of the world.

Oh, poorly worded. I mean Obama says Europe doesn't like America because we don't cooperate and do what the rest of the world wants to do. I thought maybe that Europe would do something on it's own, to keep us out of it.

PeterUK

It is quite likely that Russian has been using the Palestinian Gambit in South Ossetia."Separatist" missile attacks and occasional incursions to keep the Georgians on the boil,unnoticed by the 1000 "peacekeepers".The latter, by the way,had been guarding strategic assets like bridges and in all probability,gathering intelligence.

Ranger

What I can't figure out is why Georgia took the action it took on Thursday? Did it think Russia wouldn't respond? Was there something happening that I haven't been able to locate that would explain Georgia's action?

Posted by: Sue | August 11, 2008 at 07:53 PM

Well, the South Ossetian were shelling Georgia's troops pretty heavily the previous day.

PeterUK

"Well, the South Ossetian were shelling Georgia's troops pretty heavily the previous day."

Where were the Russian " peacekeepers",artillery spotting?

Jane

"I can't believe Leo is calling on the US to do surgical strikes.'

That's so he has something to complain about after the fact. I'd bet money Leo was all for taking out Saddam Hussein until we did.

Sue

Ranger,

I was just getting to that when Ann distracted me with the Hillary emails. It's really interesting to see what was going on internally while we were watching externally.

Topsecretk9

Sue

Prize for you in LUN

Sue

Thanks Top. A laugh at Scary's expense is always a nice prize.

Publius

The events in Georga should be, but won't be, a good lesson to this generation why politics should stop at the waters edge.

Not to say that Putin would not seek his objectives by other means, but a united voice on foreign policy by the United States, rather than advertizing to the world that we are a conflicted nation, would most likely have given Putin pause, if not averted this current military action.

Thanks Democrats and other socialists.

kim

Publius, Pravda is actively exploiting this, blaming the Republicans, and the joos.
==============

Publius

For anyone still left on this thread, please let me counter my own, outdated and not well thought out, comment above.

The 'stops at the water's edge' argument became obsolete with the advent of TV and especially the intenet. I realized my error as soon as I hit the post button.

Forgive me for showing my age, wasting your valuable band-width. :-)

kim

Sue and pooch, Weigel ignores the reasoning for the belief that the COLB says Barry Soetoro, and that is that it was modified when he was adopted, and that he presently is still an Indonesian citizen. TexasDarlin' is hot on the trail of a visit that Barry Soetoro made to Pakistan in 1981. Sure, it could be fantastical, but Obama visited the 'typical white person' today, and may be learning a little repressed family lore.
=================================

kim

Publius, we will fight them in the blogs, we will fight them on the air, we will fight them in the gestalt, we will never give up. It's necessary; it's where the conflict is being brought.
=============================

JDm

'in one hour simply wiped 10 Ossetian villages from the face of the earth, the Georgian rulers which used tanks to run over children and the elderly, which threw civilians into cellars and burnt them -- they (Georgian leaders) are players that have to be protected.'

Publius

Kim, thanks for the affirmation but it seems I have already thrown in the white flag.

kim

The Atlantic piece is nice. Yet more evidence that Dean&Cabal sank her. What are the choices now that they are propping up a parody? Gore? Don't make me laugh. Did Dean just take out Edwards? Oh, come out of that dark closet, kim.
========================

kim

What you threw was a flag of truce, not surrender. The water's edge has meaning, yet.
=================================

kim

Heh, Incoming.

War is Hell, friend. Do you see why we have America around to stop it when necessary?
=========

Ranger

Well, things on the ground remain rather hard to figure out in Georgia. It is pretty clear that the Georgians have abandoned Gori, but it is not clear the Russians have advanced on it. The Georgian army seems intent on avoided "decicive engagement" with the Russians. This will work up to a point, but they will have to fight for Tblisi. If they can hold Tblisi and the southern mountain range, they keep control of the pipeline and all the revinew that comes with it.

We may be looking at a new Korea in the making, with the Russians holding "North Georgia" and the Georgians holding "South Georgia."

kim

I think you can give up the Russian preferring provinces. I think we'll defend Tblisi. They are searching for the red line. The End is Near. I mean lower case.
=========================

Thomas Collins

In Cold War I we drew the line at West Berlin and West Germany. Where do we draw it in Cold War II? Georgia? We could do a Berlin type humanitarian airlift. Probably not, because to save face Putin would have to confront the US, and the US is not going to risk war over Georgia. Poland (and implicitly leaving Ukraine to the wolves)? Russia may be a society in demographic decline, but they can do much damage in their decline, and Bush and Obama or McCain are going to have some tough strategic decisions to make over the next year (not to mention dealing with the aftermath of a likely Israeli attack on Iran).

Rick Ballard

"I thought maybe that Europe would do something on it's own, to keep us out of it."

MayBee,

Were you thinking of a crack team of secret bureaucrats from Brussels? Laying red tape tank traps and ensnaring Russian infantry with unintelligible regulations?

I'm trying to figure out what the composition of the peace keeping farce will look like. I don't think the Georgians will stand for a regular UN Rape and Plunder Brigade.

South Americans?

Ranger

Well, if this is any indication, this has been a very traumatic event for the Euro-inteligencia:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554925.stm>Diplomatic mood darkens in Georgia

Top European diplomats are talking about a new cold war after this and blaming themselves for not being forceful enough to forestall it.

kim

Yeah, you know apparently the EU had an opportunity two years ago to replace the Russians as peacekeepers and didn't do it. I'd like to know first if this is true, and second, how it happened.
================================

Rick Ballard

Ranger,

What do you think the Russians would do if Ukraine and Poland called up their reserves? A general call up by the former (and never to be again) Eastern bloc might get Vlad to peek at his hole card. Especially if Turkey did the same thing.

All of them wouldn't mind killing Russians for a bit.

I wonder if the Georgians who came back from Iraq brought any IEDs with them? There's just something poetic about blowing up Russian tanks with Iranian IEDs.

JM Hanes

Rick:

"There's just something poetic about blowing up Russian tanks with Iranian IEDs."

That something would be poetic justice, no? LOL!

clarice

Well, well well, maybe Europe will have to take those swords they beat into welfare payments for loony mullahs and their many wives and beat them back into swords..

Sue

This is crazy. Full scale ground invasion? US military surprised by speed? What the hell?

LUN

bgates

Where do we draw it in Cold War II? Georgia? We could do a Berlin type humanitarian airlift. Probably not
You know, Thomas, there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one.

Intrade has Obama dropping from 68 to 60 over the past month, incidentally.

Sue

OMG. The men's gymnastics is kicking butt. I'm totally surprised. The high bar dude just rocked!

Ranger

Ranger,

What do you think the Russians would do if Ukraine and Poland called up their reserves? A general call up by the former (and never to be again) Eastern bloc might get Vlad to peek at his hole card. Especially if Turkey did the same thing.

All of them wouldn't mind killing Russians for a bit.

I wonder if the Georgians who came back from Iraq brought any IEDs with them? There's just something poetic about blowing up Russian tanks with Iranian IEDs.

Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 11, 2008 at 10:39 PM

Well, Belorus is a rather small and vulnerable ally of Putin's, and Minks was a Polish city between WWI and WWII (IIRC).

As to the IEDs, the Georgian's in Iraq have the most valuable thing, an understanding of how to employ them to devistating effect. I would guess that is part of the reason the Russians are avoiding Gori. BBC was reporting that the Georgian reservists were back in civilian clothes, but still under arms over the weekend. That implies to me they were preparing to 'melt into the population' when the Russians arrived.

JM Hanes

Sue:

I don't leap out of my chair very often, but that bar work was spectacular wasn't it???

Sue

JMH,

I did too. I had to do it silently to not wake up my husband, but damn, I was screaming silently!

Sue

The Belmont Club seems to be the place to be for news about Georgia. LUN

Sue

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/pelosi-indicates-openness-to-offshore-drilling-vote-2008-08-11.html>Pelosi caves.

“They have this thing that says drill offshore in the protected areas,” Pelosi said. “We can do that. We can have a vote on that.”

Polls must have really been bad for her.

MayBee

Laying red tape tank traps and ensnaring Russian infantry with unintelligible regulations?

ha ha ha haha

MayBee

Obama's theory about Iran is that they behave the way they do because the rhetoric of the US makes them sound like such international outsiders that they feel no need to participate in diplomacy nor seek international goodwill.
It is interesting to see a little bit of that in his statements about Russia, and see him already climb down some from his "lets all just get along" statement of a few days ago.
I also think it will be interesting to see if he gets that international peacekeeping squad he asks for (and Rick Ballard derides so hilariously). I don't think it is Bush hatred that keeps Europeans from participating in military ventures with us. Of course, none of us here think that. But Obama really does.
This episode may be a huge learning experience for Obama. Will he learn?

kim

Interesting that Stalin was born in Gori. I think we'll take out the tunnel if the Russians don't stop. Bush was misled.
=======================================

kim

Well, I guess will see if tonight's the 'Night They Drove Ol' Georgia Down. Still an hour 'til 3:00AM in DC.
======================================

Jor

HEH, good job TM -- no mention of Bush staring at volleyball players while Russia does whatever it wants. As always "fair and balanced". Truley hacktackular. I'm sure we will have an in-depth analysis how this is all the Democrats fault and that Bush did Georgia a favor by having them send troops to Iraq and then sit on his ass and stare at chicks as their country fell apart.

kim

Hey, Jor, obviously, Putin trembled at that swipe at the ass and has decided to stop. Nyah, nyah a boo boo. Truce made you a foo foo.
=====================================

PeterUK

Chechnya ?

'in one hour simply wiped 10 Ossetian villages from the face of the earth, the Georgian rulers which used tanks to run over children and the elderly, which threw civilians into cellars and burnt them -- they (Georgian leaders) are players that have to be protected.'

kim

That's just Russia trying to justify the adventure. Apparently the red lines have been found. They've stopped.
====================================

PeterUK

Mr Ballard,
As we speak a crack team of Belgian Choclatiers is in training for an assault on Russian sensibilities.
This fine body of people,irrespective of race creed or sanity will put the fear of God into the Russians.I know they do me.

PeterUK

Clarice,
"Well, well well, maybe Europe will have to take those swords they beat into welfare payments for loony mullahs and their many wives and beat them back into swords."

There is a plan far more fiendish,simply declare the Russians anti-Islamic.

JB

I think the only truly hacktacular piece of writing here is the hackneyed libtard "Pet Goat" template for assessing Bush's job performance.

kim

I like to respond to 'The Pet Goat' rhetoric by reminding the discussant of the damndamn Bush thought up while mumbling to the children and waiting for Secret Service authorization to move. Bin Laden would have to admit that Bush has 'brought it'.
=======================================

kim

Jor might explain to us what the Democratic Party response will be to the news that the Russians blamed the Republicans and the joos. The Democrats have just been exposed as the disloyal opposition that they are. And Putin just gave McCain a five point advantage. Watch the polls.
============================

JB

Putin v. Obambi. Yeah, that's a lovely celebrity death match for the muddle to imagine 80 days out. KGBist v. Community Organizer. 6th degree judo black belt v. three point shooter.

Well played, Lord Rove, well played.

clarice

Heh.PUK!

Gppd Morning J.O.M.!!

Jane

I dunno, I just heard Tim Kaine say he's glad the Russians obeyed Senator Obama.

Perhaps over the course of the day I'll figure out what he was referring to. One misses a lot when she oversleeps.

Good Morning!

kim

Good article by David Clark in the Guardian on Monday.
==================================

kim

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Rice iced it. Or Kouchner.
===================================

kim

The fleet is headed to Iran, too, and not to support the Georgians.
========================================

Thomas Collins

bgates noted:

"You know, Thomas, there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one."

I keep forgetting that Obama the One of Ones will create a post-modern synthesis of the Hegelian struggle for pure prestige resulting in universal peace and plenty of federal money for Chicago community organizers.

Ranger

Hmmm... Bush says stop 'or else bad things may happen', and the Russians stop. Looks like Bush it still respected, at least in Moscow. And the 'McCain approach' has been validated.

Jane

Naw Ranger, like Kaine said, they simply bowed to the Messiah.

Ranger

And I wonder how this will play in American media. Here is the http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm>BBC's take on how things went down:

Our correspondent [in Moscow] says she listened in amazement to Mr Bush's strongly-worded statement, adding that Mr Medvedev's announcement must be seen in the light of the US president's words.

The EU talks for 4 days, and nothing happens. Bush makes one statement, the Russians stop in less than 12 hours.

Captain Hate

It must be comforting to respond to every bit of seemingly bad news by hitting CTL-V and having "It's all Bush's fault" be pasted into a comment area. Does that require a working cortex?

btw, per Aviation Week the Georgians shot down a Rooskie TU-22M Backfire, which has gotta sting the Bear.

kim

Bombing that tunnel between the Ossetias would have made the Russians look pretty foolish. I'll bet that was the threat. One cruise missile would do it.
================================

kim

Yeah, CH, the Russians are blaming Israel for arming the Georgians.
========================================

PeterUK

The back story on Putin V Saakashvili is deeper than it first appears.
The Revenge of the Puppetmaster.

Jim

Jane, I found what you heard about here:

Gov. Tim Kaine, on Obama's response: "I think the senator's goal was to be tough and smart ... and I'm very, very happy that the senator's request for a cease-fire has been complied with" [by the Russians].

The RCP page seems to post this under a summary of a Fox TV show.

If it's accurate, then we have to conclude that Kaine has a firm grasp on just what happens when a Senator Barack Obama throws his weight around at the global level. Obama is like a John Wayne character and Kaine sees this. When Obama speaks, you just know he's right and you do what he says, whether you're Putin Or Ahmadinajad. Kaine understands how a man of this caliber and depth of character can have put together a resume as impressive as Obama's. (Or Kaine is stupid, crazy, or a liar.)

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