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August 07, 2008

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» The myth of Bob Casey's 1992 non-speech from Brendan Nyhan
A New York Times story this morning headlined "Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics" begins with this parable: Sixteen years ago, the Democratic Party refused to allow Robert P. Casey Sr., then the governor of Pennsylvania, to speak at [Read More]

Comments

GMax

Wanker? LOL

Have you been coferring with PUK on appropriate names for lefties?

Having had three children play competitive soccer at a pretty high level, this is not a word that is used in polite company. Of course soccer hooligans are anything but polite and it is screamed at your opponent at the top of your lungs if necessary, to make sure he understands your contempt.

For Atrios I share your sentiments Mr. M.

pagar

Obama has working class appeal? I guess if one thinks that not having to do a useful day of work ever is appealing, Obama would certainly qualify.

kim

The polling shows that Catholics are the most important swing group this year. Expect Catholicism to suffer massive misunderstanding for the next three months.
=====================================

GMax

Well now I shudder to point to Zogby on anything, but his most recent national poll had McCain winning Catholics by 15%. Given Hispanics are overwhelming Catholics and still a net plus for Obama, ( I think ) that would mean white Catholics, are running from Obama in great numbers. Think Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and to a lesser extent Michigan for the impact here.

Jane

If you hven't seen the latest "Praising McCain" Youtube, it's worth watching.

LUN

anduril

Everyone who's interested has probably already read up on the anthrax case, so I won't post any more links. For those who want to criticize the FBI I offer this link to an outstanding Steve Sailer discussion: The Anthrax Lag.

bio mom

Once Catholics learn about Obama's shameful behavior in the Illionis State Senate, blocking the Born Alive Act, they will desert him in droves, no matter what their party.

centralcal

Jane: I love that the video closes with Hillary's contrast of McCain and Obama!

Wonderful.

anduril

The polling results on Catholics must have Dems quaking in their boots, or whatever footwear Dems favor. By most measures this SHOULD be a Dem year among Catholics, so the polling results must be pretty directly attributable to the Dem candidate: The One. Can attempts to tie McCain to the likes of Hagee overcome this type of gut revulsion? I tend to doubt it--demonstrating that the other guy is a bit of a goof, too, doesn't overcome that type of gut revulsion. The remedy is to overcome the gut revulsion, and right now that's a tough one. Could Dem horror at such polling results lead to Dem second thoughts at the convention? We'll see.

Patrick R. Sullivan

Something interesting may happen in Denver:

According to RealClearPolitics, Obama has 1766.5 pledged delegates, 352 short of the 2118 needed to secure the nomination. He also has 463 super delegates, which puts him over the top -- if they hold. If a combination of Clinton campaigning and nervousness can cause a hundred and twenty or so super delegates to sit out the first ballot, Obama does not get the nomination on the first ballot and perhaps not at all. After that first vote a great many pledged delegates and all the super delegates are free to vote as they choose.

How much pressure could there then be for the forty-seven year old Obama to take the VP spot under Hillary, with the understanding that he would as such be the next Democrat in line for the top nomination whether Hillary won or lost, served one, two or no terms?

It looks like Obama's belief in his inevitability may have led him into a blunder, making it easier for Hillary supporters to prevent a nomination on the first ballot. After that point, anything goes, as all super delegates and many pledged delegates are free to vote their preferences.

After accepting the party's decision last June to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida but with half votes, only days ago Obama said he wanted the delegates to have full votes

Obviously, he said this believing he has won the nomination and that pandering to voters in critical general election states is of more importance.

If the party goes along with Obama's request, it reduces the number of super delegates who would need to sit out the first ballot for Obama to be denied the nomination, opening the way for Clinton! Ouch!

hrtshpdbox

.."only days ago Obama said he wanted the delegates to have full votes."

Yes, when I heard that I wondered if that might not be a particularly unwise thing for Obama to do.

narciso

Not to hijack the thread; but did the FBI explain how Ivins got hold of the Dugway, Utah strains, and how he got to NJ; to mail
the envelopes to NY, Fl. et al. If it is Ivins, which it seems more likely, its interestingly how he never seemed to pop on the radar of the people supposedly in the know: Nass, Rosenberg, Kristof, Rozen, et al. It must be those subliminal messages that only they can hear; like the 'wolf whistle' of Rhodesia that set them like wolves on to Hatfill.

In other news, the ruling coalition in Pakistan has decided that the most important
issue of the day; is to (wait for it)
. . .impeach Musharaf. Well they're only slightly more crazy than their brethren over here, but you would think with sky high fuel prices, car bombings every other week, they would have some more important
things to worry about. Silly me, they can't go after AQ, because that would just anger them. They can't go after the ISI, because they will kill you, dead. So Musharaff seems a suitable subject to be used as a scapegoat.

GMax

I am pretty sure Obama removed delegates in both states and replaced them with his supporters, thus his change of heart. This guy grew up in Chicago, when you smile you not only insert the knife but then you twist it hard, and the smile never stops. If he is for new delegates its cuz an unfortunate and tragic accident has befallen an opponent and there is just little he can do but soldier on.

Rick Ballard

From the Broder piece:

Archbishop Chaput, who has stopped short of telling his flock how to vote, has called abortion a “foundational issue.” He has said that a vote for a candidate who supports abortion rights or stem-cell research, like Mr. Obama or Senator John Kerry in 2004, was a sin that must be confessed before receiving communion. Mr. Obama’s Republican rival, Senator John McCain, an opponent of abortion rights, met last week in Denver with Archbishop Chaput.

Chaput is no shrinking violet and it would be unsurprising to see a strong pastoral message prior to the convention. Bill Donahue's acceptance of Hagee's apology moves that issue to the edge of the table, if it doesn't push it off on the floor. Donahue went right for the throat on Obama's support for infanticide in the same clip. He doesn't appear to be backing off.

The One is going to have to consult with Himself and try to find a new exit. Given His absolute and appalling ignorance of basic Christian theological tenets (as revealed in the interview which Bad linked) one might suppose that The One will be working from the Gospel of Obama as revealed by Himself to Himself (and subject to His revision, as expedience may demand).

bio mom

I am a practicing Catholic and there is no compromising on the abortion question in Catholic theology. None. No other issue rises to the level of abortion as an issue. Not war, death penalty, poverty, or anything else. Not to a true Catholic.

bad

And lets not forget the PUMA factor in making nice with the pro-life crowd.

Neo

Sen. Robert Casey Jr. "souled" out for a Senate seat.

Jane

Kwamie Kilpatrick goes to jail for a probation violation. (see Drudge)

Can Mrs Waxman be far behind?

bad

Althouse has video of convention discussion between Hillary and some supporters. Listen for sexual references. (unintended, of course)

LUN

also linked at instapundit

Rick Ballard

Bio Mom,

If you had the misfortune to have been raised and taught within a diocese where the focus was on some sort of liberation theology, and did not pursue the teaching beyond what someone (like, Fr. Pfleger, say) presented, you might have a different perspective. I don't disagree with your conclusion, I'm just pointing out that there are many Catholics who believe themselves to be true to their faith who have received an incomplete (and sometimes false) education regarding the application of core tenets.

centralcal

Jane: I think you mean Mrs. Conyers?

Porchlight

Something that puzzles me. Obama has said that the first thing he'll do as President is to sign the Freedom of Choice Act. Doesn't Congress first have to decide whether or not it's going to arrive on his desk? So far it hasn't made it out of the Judiciary Committee. I guess Obama won't be held any of that "checks and balances" stuff that regular Presidents have to abide by. He'll just sign legislation that appeal to him.

bad

Obama wants to be president because it no longer is what it once was. And it wasn't a compliment. Is he longing for a return to slavery, Jim Crow, back alley abortions, or what? Maybe he just wants to go back before the tire gauge...

Hot air has the video.

LUN

pagar

Porchlight, I think they're called decrees.

Elliott

Why is this clown more complimentary of Germany than the nation he wants to run?

Porchlight

Sorry, my link was bad - here's another with more context, from the National Catholic Register.

There's actually not much news reporting of his statement on the Freedom of Choice Act (almost all the Google hits are on advocacy sites, for and against). Unsurprising.

bad

Hoe tough is it to memorize a little blurb about why he wants to be president. His answer makes it appear he hadn't given any thought to the question previously.

centralcal

Why ANYONE, Catholic or Atheist or Obamaist, would want to listen to a speech given by the mentally deficient Casey, who talkth with a lithp is beyond me.

cathyf

Ah, yes, I guess we are marking the coming 16th anniversary of when my husband, the Pennsylvania Catholic, departed the Democratic Party. As he said at the time, a party with no room for Bob Casey has no room for him. And we're pretty liberal Catholics...

Rick Ballard

Porchlight,

Thanks for the link - which led to Fr. Neuhas' response to Kmiec. Unsurprisingly well reasoned and remarkably clear. As always.

JM Hanes

I'm sure I could look it up somewhere, but how did John Kerry do with the Catholic vote? I can't recall who it was who set off a brief brouhaha by saying that Kerry was not fit for communion, but I don't think it actually shifted a lot of votes, did it? There are plenty of Democratic Catholic office holders and voters, so I certainly think it's fair to say that Catholics are divided on this issue as a practical, not doctrinal, matter.

Jane

I think you mean Mrs. Conyers?

That's right! Mrs Waxman is in the future.

Thanks!

Pofarmer

Heard a clip of Michelle Obama saying that Barack Hussein couldn't be an elitist because he hadn't had the kind of advantages that make one an elitist, growing up with a single Mom and all.

O.K.

Private schools in Hawaii.
Columbia University
Harvard
Fellowships
Illinios State Senator
U.S. Senator.

Now, how in the world could he be an elitist?

RichatUF

JM Hanes-

I'm sure I could look it up somewhere, but how did John Kerry do with the Catholic vote?

When the Wa-Po was weather-ballooning Gov. Kaine for the Obama campaign a week or so ago, I looked it up-Bush 52%-Kerry 47%, but didn't look at the state splits. I'm not sure how a bit of genuflecting with giving Sen. Casey a speech at the convention will help, when he couldn't close the gap with PA Catholics in the primary.

I'll have to drop a link for the transcript I found of Obama's speech in the Illinois Senate stating his opposition for the Born Alive Protection Act-it was an eye-opener.

RichatUF

JM Hanes-

I'm sure I could look it up somewhere, but how did John Kerry do with the Catholic vote?

When the Wa-Po was weather-ballooning Gov. Kaine for the Obama campaign a week or so ago, I looked it up-Bush 52%-Kerry 47%, but didn't look at the state splits. I'm not sure how a bit of genuflecting with giving Sen. Casey a speech at the convention will help, when he couldn't close the gap with PA Catholics in the primary.

I'll have to drop a link for the transcript I found of Obama's speech in the Illinois Senate stating his opposition for the Born Alive Protection Act-it was an eye-opener.

RichatUF

And going ot for a bit: saw this via drudge

Jobless claims rose 7k to 455k-and the end is neigh. This is a question for Rick: could the Ford & GM buy-outs be distorting the unemployment numbers? Also Chrysler has idled some plants and wonder if that might also be distorting the numbers some as that would eventually feed through the auto supply chain?

graf (also why might the numbers have risen, unemployment offices are looking for unemployed people)-

On the layoffs front, the new filings for unemployment benefits were distorted somewhat by the outreach program to notify people that they could qualify for additional benefits being made available under a new law.

When people went to state claims offices to apply for these extended benefits, state officials discovered that some were eligible for—but haven't filed for—their initial unemployment benefits, the department analyst said. That accounted for some of last week's increase, he said.

RichatUF

And going ot for a bit: saw this via drudge

Jobless claims rose 7k to 455k-and the end is neigh. This is a question for Rick: could the Ford & GM buy-outs be distorting the unemployment numbers? Also Chrysler has idled some plants and wonder if that might also be distorting the numbers some as that would eventually feed through the auto supply chain?

graf (also why might the numbers have risen, unemployment offices are looking for unemployed people)-

On the layoffs front, the new filings for unemployment benefits were distorted somewhat by the outreach program to notify people that they could qualify for additional benefits being made available under a new law.

When people went to state claims offices to apply for these extended benefits, state officials discovered that some were eligible for—but haven't filed for—their initial unemployment benefits, the department analyst said. That accounted for some of last week's increase, he said.

bad

Abortion, PUMAs, superdelegates...The DNC already has its hands full and along comes this problem for them:

But an increasingly nasty lawsuit against the DNC, brought by Donald Hitchcock after he was fired as the party’s gay and lesbian outreach director, has exposed the rift between gays and one of the party’s most important constituencies, African Americans.

D'ya suppose Obama will take sides?

LUN

glenda waggoner

Mrs. Waxman???

Is there really such a thing? lol, Jane!

narciso

An interesting piece by Goldsmith,
the'sensible'conservative in the OLC; who writes in the New Republic, about Lichtblau's "Bush Justice Department" or what ever the title is:href<http://www.tnr.com/booksarts/story.html?id=5a68f45e-c100-4850-b7fef99c7db36bc1y>
Apparently, he takes Lichtblau to task for his disclosures of the TSP and the SWIFT financial tracking program; he even invokes Sect. 798 of the Federal Code, that Mr. Schoenfeld, made a point, of citing as a possible indictment against the Times. He believes that just because the Times is guilty shouldn't be prosecuted; and of course Bush secrecy, yadda, yadda. But is interesting how a more nuanced picture arises it. Benjamin Wittes, another critic
of Gitmo, in the New Republic and the Atlantic; has come around to the idea of a "National Security Court" in between the tribunal system, and the conventional civilian or even military courtmartial. Phillip Bobbit, a LBJ relation as it turns,
has made similar arguments, even accepting that the "War on Terror" is the right meme. But here's the thing, we've never tried unlawful combatants by court system; Quirin
was in fact perfunctory, and for obvious reasons, we don' try them by court martial.
The only system that really applies in this case, is military tribunal; maybe more of Milligan standards than Quirin; yet this is
the system; they've sandbagged for nearly the last 7 years!

JM Hanes

Porchlight:

"I guess Obama won't be held any of that "checks and balances" stuff that regular Presidents have to abide by."

Ditto on taxing windfall profits and bribing voters with rebates. I call it the Abracadabra Plan. Of course, all presidential candidates ignore cold hard constitutional realities, but given the high profile Democratic obsession with Unitary Executive Theory, their ostensible nominee does seem to have an ironically expansive view of presidential powers.

Ultimately, however, I think Instapundit nailed the underlying dynamic. Revisiting Early-Obama assertions on not running for office in 2008, he commented:

I don't think Obama was lying in 2005. I've always thought that he didn't expect his campaign to take off the way it did; I think he figured he'd run a good attention-getting primary campaign, drop out after South Carolina, and set himself up for the future. I think that the coalescence of the anti-Hillary Democrats around his campaign surprised him as much as it did Hillary, and that he's been running a brilliant piece of improvisation ever since.
Someone similarly suggested that having made an off-the-cuff debate commitment to negotiating unconditionally with Ahmadinejad, Obama was then compelled to double down on what was essentially accidental foreign policy.

My own theory posits Obama as a beauty pageant finalist responding to some inevitable variation on the If-I-Were-President-I-Would question.

Jane

M.Simon,

I just read your piece about Carol McCain. I remember distinctly when this issue came up in 2000. Carol was approached and said nothing but nice things about her ex-husband, in such an open-armed way that the whole issue immediately went away. Hopefully that can be replicated this year.

Sue

I watched Andrea Mitchell again today. A small segment only, so I don't know how she acted in earlier or later segments. The economic expert she had on said Obama's windfall profit tax against oil companies had been tried in the 70s and would not pay for itself. Anyone who believed that it would was flat wrong. Andrea stuttered her way to the end. She must not have had the nerve to challenge his expertise on the subject.

Rick Ballard

Rich,

There's definitely an employment "sector squeeze" going on with autos. It includes Toyota as well as GM and Ford so I can't say that the accelerated buyouts are key. I have a relative who works the dealer auctions (credit, which is lease, and large fleet) for one of the majors and he reports an inventory hangover for SUVs that is truly incredible. He's a forty year man and has never seen anything remotely like it.

I follow SS revenue data (particularly HI) more than BLS numbers. The Q2 YOY number for the FICA portion was +4.9% vs +3.5 for Q1. The total comparison (including SECA) showed a Q2 YOY of +5.3% vs +3.5% in Q1. All that is consonant with Q4 '07 being the 'low' (actually flat) spot.

The automotive sector is definitely a drag at the moment and may remain so until at least next spring. It's not as if retooling to build more tiny death traps can occur overnight.

jimmyk

Once Catholics learn about Obama's shameful behavior in the Illionis State Senate, blocking the Born Alive Act, they will desert him in droves, no matter what their party.

And not just Catholics, one would hope. Humans?

centralcal

Excellent point, jimmyk!

Jane

I'm under tornado watch. I can honestly say that's a first for me. Supposedly it's been sighted Northwest of here, traveling away from me. If it gets nearer do I go into the basement of the building into the bathroom?

(sheesh you would think I would know that)

SWarren

From this 2005 article, a good analysis of the Democrat's declining Catholic vote:

At the same time, the alienation of many Catholic voters from Democratic ranks is one of the McGovern Commission's two most politically consequential legacies. Earlier this year, William McGurn, now President George W. Bush's top speechwriter, called this "Bob Casey's Revenge." Among white Catholics in the 2004 presidential race, a crucial swing bloc in the Midwest and Rust Belt, John Kerry lost 43 to 56 percent. As party strategists Stanley Greenberg, James Carville, and Bob Shrum concluded in a memo last March, "the drop in Catholic support is a big part of the 2004 election story."
.....
Read the whole article:

Goodbye, Catholics: how one man reshaped the Democratic Party

LUN

MayBee

Jane- basement or interior bathroom on a warning. On a watch, just take a moment to put some lipstick on in case you do end up getting blown out onto the street. You don't want to look unattractive when Anderson Cooper uses your picture to demonstrate how Bush's global warming is causing tornadoes that terrorize Massachusetts.

Porchlight

JMH, I agree that Obama never thought he'd get this far this year. In a sense we're lucky he did, as he may be less formidable now as a rookie than he would be as a more seasoned Senator down the road.

The problem is that the tyro might actually win.

Sue

MayBee,

LOL.

bad

Jane

Basement or lowest floor possible,
inside room (one with no exterior walls) with no windows,
preferebly under a stair case because of the extra framing

BE SAFE

sbw

Jane - lowest sturdiest place. Could be in the basement if framed well. Could be in an old-style tub if cast iron. Could be an indoor door opening. Protect yourself.

RichatUF

Here is an older article about the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.

And here is a blog post going through Obama's 10 reasons for blocking and voting against Born Alive Infant Protection act.

And here is the IL senate transcript: it isn't copy/paste -able, but is searchable. Obama's comments begin on p.85

Also thanks Rick for the link.

RichatUF

Here is an older article about the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.

And here is a blog post going through Obama's 10 reasons for blocking and voting against Born Alive Infant Protection act.

And here is the IL senate transcript: it isn't copy/paste -able, but is searchable. Obama's comments begin on p.85

Also thanks Rick for the link.

RichatUF

Am I the only one with the hiccups. Really sorry about that.

bad

I wish Drudge would take down that picture Where Obama looks puckered up to plant one on Hillary. It's creepy...

Jane

On a watch, just take a moment to put some lipstick on in case you do end up getting blown out onto the street.

The warning has ended. SO now I'm just gonna laugh at Maybee.

I thought "basement bathroom" so I'm glad I could still access the recesses of my brain.

kim

Relax, Jane. Go outside and enjoy the view. The chances of being hit by a tornado are miniscule.

If, however, you see a funnel headed toward you, take everyone else's advice. And quickly. Grab the cat, too, if you can find her.
==============================

Porchlight

Glad the danger's passed, Jane. I still remember huddling with my mom and brothers in the basement on April 3, 1974 (we were living in Louisville). That was exciting and fun for us kids but not so much for my mom, as my dad was on his way home from work when it struck.

cathyf
Once Catholics learn about Obama's shameful behavior in the Illionis State Senate, blocking the Born Alive Act, they will desert him in droves, no matter what their party.
Yeah, this can't be emphasized enough that Obama is not a mainstream abortion-rights supporter. He voted against a bill that, when an equivalent bill came up in the US Senate, passed unanimously.

Pro-choice advocates make a vigorous response to being tagged with the name "pro-abortion." They say that they are personally against abortion but are unwilling to make the choice for someone else, or advocate, like Bill Clinton, "safe, legal and rare." So it needs to be pointed out that Obama really is "pro-abortion" (and pro-infanticide!) in a way that the vast majority of pro-choice advocates most assuredly are not.

GMax

If you have a storage closet or room under a stairway in the interior of the house that can also be a good place in a tornado. Interior room away from flying objects and broken glass, and the stairwells are well reinforced and should better withstand the forces of the wind.

Sue

Good Lord. 5-1/2 years for the driver of bin Laden.

Crunchy Frog

Wankers?

Aren't Catholics against that too?

GMax

Us Texas folk dont have anything resembling what you yankees call a "basement"!

Jane

The sentence doesn't bother me Sue. At least from a political standpoint it will give the tribunals credibility.

cathyf

Also mattresses pulled off of the bed and taken down into the basement/bathroom/closet help. And if you are in the basement, going underneath the basement stairs, or underneath a sturdy table (like a workbench) is good.

I have a friend whose sister-in-law took the baby and toddler and dragged the mattress off of the toddler's twin bed and climbed into the tub and pulled the mattress over them. When the tornado passed and she pushed the mattress off of them, two of the three walls around the tub formed the tallest structure remaining in the entire housing development. When they rebuilt the house she moved the tub over into the corner of the yard and made it part of her landscaping.

Thomas Collins

I'm glad the watch has ended, Jane. At least you had a good story to post this afternoon. I only have risking getting caught in a thunderstorm to have a red wine filled lunch in Boston's North End (I made it back to my office before the rains and the only tornado going on here is the one in my vino-filled head)!

Rick Ballard

Peter Kirsanow on the NYT piece:

"Political savants maintain that the candidate who raises the abortion issue hurts himself. I haven't seen data to confirm the point, but maybe Obama is banking on McCain not raising the issue. Clearly, Obama's supporters must recognize the issue as a toxic one, not just with Catholics, but with nearly everyone — for it goes beyond abortion. At what point after birth does Obama call a baby a person and not a fetus? One week? Six months? Will any reporter ask him?"

The answer to the last question is "Not if they don't want to be accused of working for McCain."

Sue

The sentence doesn't bother me Sue. At least from a political standpoint it will give the tribunals credibility.

I didn't realize justice was dependent upon politics until Bush was elected.

Porchlight

Wow, cathyf. That is an amazing story. It's always been hard for me to believe that the bathtub could offer that much protection, but I believe it now.

bad

TM, Bob Beckel at RCP says it doesn't matter what Obama's position has been in the past on an issue, which one presumes covers abortion as well:

Barack Obama is the Cable Guy. Whatever it takes to "get 'er done" he's going to do.

-----

Obama is only concerned with mastering whatever process is needed to get from here to there, nothing more, nothing less.

LUN


centralcal

Jane: Glad you didn't have to run for the bath tub!

Maybee: Your advice was hysterical and so right on.

OT, I saw somewhere (the Corner?) that protestors greeted Nancy Pelosi at a book signing in Coral Gables, Florida. I instantly thought of Clarice's mom! But, then I thought, nah, I think she is a Liberal -- or is that your mother, Jane? Anyway, the seniors in Florida are giving Madame Speaker what for!

centralcal

Also, Sue, I saw Jennifer Griffith on Fox News talking about the Hamdam verdict. I find her to be highly credible in all of her mid-east related reporting. She indicated that the verdict, while a surprise, was probably a fair one. He was apparently really low hanging fruit.

centralcal

On the subject of Liberal Catholics, I have stolen a wonderful line from George Will (talking about Jerry Brown, ex-Gov. Moonbeam):

"Brown, a Catholic in everything but theology..."

Sadly, there are quite a few of these kind of Catholics.

sbw

The best way to avoid the abortion issue is to pay attention to how best to care for unwanted children. Wantedness is the critical indicator of educational success.

Bill in AZ

Good Lord. 5-1/2 years for the driver of bin Laden.
He said he was sorry.

Sue

There are people who have been convicted of drug usage that are serving longer sentences than this man got. Somewhere I saw where he just did it for the money. Well freakin' yeah. That's what criminals do.

ben

Obamamessiah only up by four in Wisconsin (Rasmussen) and by three in Oregon (Survey USA)...let's hope he has to put lots of $$$ to try to hold these states.

Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet

THe Hamdan sentence is another data point that is consistent with my conviction that current US military justice is not synonymous with kangaroo court.

The military justice feature of an extenuation and mitigation hearing on sentencing often has the effect of seemingly light sentences. That evidence was taken very seriously in my experience. It appears that it was in this case too.

Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet

This excerpt from the NYT reporters seems pretty balanced, and is consistent with the kind of arguments made in a combat theatre 40 years ago. I think it is worth reading in full:

Under the rules here, four votes were required to impose a sentence of ten years or less. A sentence of more than ten years would require a vote of five of the six panel members.

Under military rules, a Pentagon official who has broad power over the military commission system here, Susan J. Crawford, has the power to reduce a military panel’s sentence but not to increase it. Ms. Crawford, who has the title of convening authority, is to review the decision here. After her decision, Mr. Hamdan’s lawyers can begin an appeals process at a military appeals court and then in civilian federal courts.

Mr. Hamdan’s statement was an unsworn plea for mercy permitted by the rules here. An unsworn statement is permitted to an accused instead of taking the witness chair and risking cross examination.

Mr. Hamdan, looking worn after a two-week trial, spoke in the makeshift courtroom here, saying his ties to Mr. bin Laden were “a work relationship only” and claiming that he had been troubled by the bombing of the American destroyer Cole in 2000 that killed 17 sailors.

He said he had once had a relationship of mutual respect with Mr. bin Laden but that after the Cole bombing, his views about his boss “changed a lot.” He said he needed money and had returned to work with Mr. bin Laden because he felt he had few options.

But a prosecutor, John Murphy, ridiculed the idea that a man would work for a killer instead of seeking other employment. He argued that there was no place for mercy, urging the panel to impose a sentence of no less than 30 years and possibly life, the maximum.

“Your sentence,” Mr. Murphy said, “should say the United States will hunt you down and give you a harsh but appropriate sentence if you provide material support for terrorism.” He argued for justice for the victims of al Qaeda’s terror attacks.

A defense lawyer, Charles Swift, reminded the panel members that Mr. Hamdan had cooperated with interrogators, providing information about places in Afghanistan linked to Mr. bin Laden.

He said a long sentence would discourage other potential sources of information about terror organizations from working with American forces. “The reward for cooperation is life?” Mr. Swift asked. “Does that help us in this struggle?”

Mr. Swift, who has represented Mr. Hamdan through years of legal battles, did not offer a proposed sentence. But he noted that the only detainee who has been sentenced by a military commission here, Mr. Hicks, received a sentence of nine months. Mr. Hicks pleaded guilty to providing material support for terrorism last year and is now free.

Mr. Swift suggested that if the panel determined that Mr. Hamdan were five times more culpable than Mr. Hicks, the sentence would be 45 months, less than four years.

Mr. Swift, a former Navy lawyer, argued that a sentence in proportion to Mr. Hamdan’s participation as a driver would help make meaningful some future verdict against the planners of the 2001 terror attacks.

“At some point,” he said, “we will bring the people who conspired, the people who brought those buildings down, and that’s going to be a great day.”

Jane

Thomas,

The storm was roaring down route 9 an hour and a half ago, so it you are going west keep your head down.

I didn't realize justice was dependent upon politics until Bush was elected.

Yeah I know, but as Centralcal pointed out, her really was low hanging fruit. Since the Judge said he was going to apply time served, he will probably be back in Yemen by Christmas.

largebill

Headline is wrong. Shouldn't be: "Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics." Should be: "Obama’s View on Abortion May Unite Catholics." All Catholics are against abortion. Obama is strongly in favor of abortion. Ergo all Catholics are against Obama. Anyone for Obama is no longer a Catholic no matter what they may claim.

Sue

It sent a great message to terrorists. As long as you just support it, you can get off saying you're sorry. I wonder why he wasn't offended by bin Laden's involvement in the Kenya-Tanzania bombings. Today is the anniversary of that bombing. Anyway, I just hope this

would help make meaningful some future verdict against the planners of the 2001 terror attacks.

doesn't mean when they get 30 years we should be happy.

Sue

largebill,

Which brings me to JC Watts, my pick for McCain's VP. However, JC is not sure he will vote for McCain and left open the possibility he would vote for Obama. Guess race trumps abortion. I am very disappointed in JC. He doesn't have to vote for McCain but allowing for the possibility that he, with his pro-life, pro-conservative record, might consider voting for the most liberal senator makes me sad.

Sue

Armstrong Williams believes conservative blacks will have a hard time voting against Obama. It really makes me sad that the first black president will be someone like Obama. Just as I felt Hillary would have set women back a 100 years, I think Obama will do the same for blacks.

PeterUK

Why is having a black president more significant than having say, a president from the Sioux Nation?

Sue

PUK,

You got me.

Sara

He is still an enemy combatant, so they don't have to let him go when his sentence is completed. Well, that's what they were saying on the news an hour or so ago.

centralcal

Sue: Hopefully, he won't be the first black President. Today, anyway, I am thinking it doesn't look very likely. Tomorrow, who knows . . .?

Sue

C-Cal,

Yeah, well the damage is already done for me with JC. I won't be able to trust him again.

hit and run

PUK:
Why is having a black president more significant than having say, a president from the Sioux Nation?

I am calling for the Sue Nation!

PeterUK

It would just be rather apt to have a native american as president,they were there first.
The black president campaign reminds me of the old Avis versus Hertz ad,"We may be smaller but we try harder".This brilliantly blanked out all the other competitors.

Hit are you attempting a coup whilst Clarice is away?

Ann

PUK,

Hit has his eyes on bigger game than JOM: Jeff Dobbs in Big Lights

kim

PeterUK, thanks for the link about Abu Obama. That clears up a small mystery for me. I've been claiming that Obama got Muslim instruction at the Catholic school in Indonesia and that is wrong. It was after he left the Catholic school and went to public school that he got his Islamic instruction.
=====================================

hit and run

PUK:
Hit are you attempting a coup whilst Clarice is away?

I can neither confirm nor deny that.

Until it is complete.

Heh, Ann -- that's awesome. Go Dean Barnett!

Ann

Congrats, Hit!!!

Sue

Sue Nation

Not a good idea, H&R. I don't think the world is ready for my brand of leadership, if Bush bothered them.

hit and run

And Peace Be Upon Allahpundit!

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