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November 29, 2008



I know, cc, we are grasping at straws. But why won't Obama show his certificate.

If it were something shameful, he can spin it to reflect on the right. Almost anything conceivably shameful wouldn't be to his supporters on the left.

If it puts a lie to something he has said, he can merely claim he only recently found out the truth. Families keep secrets for all sorts of reason, and who among us is certain of all of their own family's mythology.

If it makes him ineligible, though, that is worth spending a fortune to keep from having to establish a very basic fact, his birthplace. It is worth taking the risk of posting a forgery on his 'Fight the Smears' site. And now, apparently, it is worth bluffing the Supreme Court. I hope those wily old dogs of justice make him show the cards in his hand before he is allowed to rake in the pot.


Don't forget President Bush sent help to parts of Africa to control AIDs. One columnist wrote it was Bush's finest hour.

"We lost New Orleans and all our investment banks, but not Iraq. Some score card..." SAY WHAT!!?

glenda waggoner

Great History primers, Narciso..again. And I am so grateful that our host, TM, presents ideas, serious and tongue-in-cheek, to inspire our great debates.
Being a Texan, I am glad GWB is coming home where he will be appreciated for his leadership and strengths, not blamed for everyone and everthing wrong in the world...we mortals, no matter what "O"and his cult would have you believe, all lead imperfect lives.
And Clarice, your family and feasts' stories make me smile-my hope is that all here enjoy such!
The next months and years are going to be challenges--and we must all be vigilant..and keep in touch, especially with Hit, so we will laugh through our worries.


I have always agreed that he (or any candidate) should be required - as step one - to produce a vault copy of their birth certificate.

I am less inclined to think there is something embarassing he wants to hide - which would primarily be paternity, I guess.

IF he is not natural born, that would be worth trying to hide. Obama has shown he plays by his own rules (look at his campaign financing) that may or may not be legal.


"I am less inclined to think there is something embarassing he wants to hide"

I still haven't heard a single reason why he (or someone on his behalf) is spending what has to be getting close to a million dollars to avoid showing a document that millions of other Americans have shown routinely to government officials all their lives. The fact that a lot of the money being spent is going to lawyers who have defended CAIR over and over is also very disturbing to me. My guess is he isn't spending a dime of his own money. If I had any money invested in Obama, I would ask for my money back on the grounds that he is apparently not who he says he is.

JM Hanes


While I understand Taranto's point, I think that hammer has been pounded hardest by folks who have already unceremoniously dismissed the birth certificate issue as an embarrassing trutherism to be put out of its misery as quickly as possible. They do so at the expense of examining what increasingly strikes me as both legal and political issues in dire need of attention. While I can't speak to the content of the various petitions themselves, I'd say the case itself certainly passes the two pronged test of "raising particularly significant questions of law, and/or those where there is a division of legal authority."

On the one hand we have an explicit constitutional stricture, and on the other we have neither notion nor precedent establishing who has the standing to challenge a candidate's constitutional credentials or who is empowered to entertain such a challenge. Such daunting lack of clarity has been compounded by at least one court which asserted that it had no jurisdiction, but couldn't say who did. IIRC, that same court also raised questions as to timliness, with regard to nomination/election/inauguration -- which it left similarly unresolved.

As a matter of common sense, if not law, the most logical venue/threshold for lodging a complaint might seem to be the FEC. When a candidate himself can block the necessary quorum required for them to act, and where consequences for irregularities, whether minor or momentous, can be regulated into post election irrelevance, surely there are foundational issues crying out for a hearing at the highest levels!

Regardless of whether suspcions in some quarters seem reasonable or loony, Obama's refusal to provide a proper birth certificate for inspection, or to explain why one is not forthcoming, seems, at the very least, bizarre. The fact that a candidate apparently cannot be compelled to demonstrate his constitutional eligibility for election to the highest office should give everyone pause. When it is unclear which branch of government even has the authority to provide a remedy, self-righteous admonitions from the likes of Taranto seem particularly ill considered.


Obama has had a history of keeping private much information as possible; school records, birth certificate, information on relationships, his wife's thesis at Princeton, etc. He has been abetted by a lap dog media. There may be something there, or may not. But to obstruct and obfuscate only raises more questions.

In a way, his cabinet appointments reinforce this. He had the most liberal voting record in the Senate and voted "present" more times than normal, and yet his appointments have not been the hard left ones feared by many.

It would seem he ran to the left and may govern in the center, in which case we may all be better off on some of the key issues facing us.

At the same time, someone is going to have to sort out the can of worms generated by the various and sundry bailouts, handouts, economic stimuli, etc. The economy is being drastically altered, and not for the better.


"Open and serious debate versus ideological certitude will be a great relief to the military leaders," said retired Maj. Gen. William L. Nash of the Council on Foreign Relations. Senior officers are aware that few in their ranks voiced misgivings over the Iraq war, but they counter that they were not encouraged to do so by the Bush White House or the Pentagon under Donald H. Rumsfeld.

"The joke was that when you leave a meeting, everybody is supposed to drink the Kool-Aid," Nash said. "In the Bush administration, you had to drink the Kool-Aid before you got to go to the meeting."

Obama's expected retention of Robert M. Gates as defense secretary and expected appointment of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton as secretary of state and retired Marine Gen. James L. Jones as national security adviser have been greeted with relief at the Pentagon

it cant happen fast enough!!!May bush be haunted and hounded till the day he dies!


My understanding was that Bush has a keen interest in knowing what his advisors think, even if he considers himself not bound to accept their advice. (As he should not, because as C-i-C, final decisions and responsibilities are his.)

Therefore, I am suspicious of what Nash says. Does he have a history of having his advice rejected by the Bush administration? And if so, do his remarks constitute sour grapes?


Ah yes, Nash. Another Clintoon General and commander in Kosovo. Then UN civil affairs officer there. Is that one done yet, BTW??? Kept saying Iraq was in "Civil War" on ABC. Interestingly enough, he also retired 10 years ago.


your delusional pd!bush has NO KEEN INTEREST IN ANYTHING{except money}!
There are presidents who have the capacity to lead the country forward, and there are presidents who must rely on the advice of others as to how to lead the country forward. President Bush was the latter type of President. As has become abundantly clear, President Bush lacked the ability to discriminate between political advisers and policy advisers, which caused him to put political loyalists at the heads of policy implementing departments of government.

There were exceptions, perhaps luck, perhaps coincidence in finding loyalty and competence in the same person as in moving Condoleeza Rice to the State Department. But, "Brownie" at the head of FEMA when Katrina hit was a disaster upon disaster. Other examples were Gonzalez at the head of the Justice Department who advised it was legal to torture and rendition was OK, and Meyers as nominee for the Supreme Court. All disastrous choices based on political loyalty instead of competence in policy and governance.

No doubt, President Bush is sad to see his friend of 34 years have to step down. No doubt the 29% of Republicans who still can find no fault with the Bush Presidency will cry foul. But, the rest of America will likely hear a faint voice in the back of their head whispering these words of relief: "Thank goodness". But, Karl Rove is but one of many who must yet leave this divisive governance in the White House before the American people can openly sigh, "It's finally over, this lamest of ducks has flown away."


Does he have a history of having his advice rejected by the Bush administration?

He was retired 2 years before Bush got into office.


who advised it was legal to torture and rendition

So he agreed with the Clintoon legal team?

JM Hanes


Don't look now, but Obama's political team is morpning into his White House staff as we speak. David Axelrod will be taking over Rove's old office, so apparently, the President-elect thinks Bush had the right idea! Rove, by the way, left government ages ago and landed a cushy spot in broadcasting. You really need to do a better job of keeping up, although I'm sure it's difficult to do when you're been habitually looking backward for so long (and reaching so far back to seize on fodder for complaint!).


your delusional pd!bush has NO KEEN INTEREST IN ANYTHING{except money}!

Pish-tosh. Talk about being a kool-aid drinker. Bush has about as much interest in money as he has in guiding his decisions based on poll results.


Ah yes the Clinton team; they left all the hard work to the rendition unit which depended on the tender mercies of the Egyptian Mukharabat; among whose mentors were the retired German expatriate Alois Brunner. That of course, is the irony of
closing Gitmo which is much more a spa, now
compared to the Circle Sportif in Algiers,(has Mr. Boumedienne really though this through)the Egyptian or Syrian or even Jordanian Mukharabats. Careful supervision of select techniques like those employed by Kirikaou against Zubeydah and Martinez against KSM proved useful. Excessive, unsupervised practices like those at Aby Ghraib, were often counterproductive. One of the few decent pieces on the subject was
John Richardson's Esquire piece (his father was burned by Kennedy, in order to make way for the Diem coup) how John Yee madeextensive research on European human rights laws in order to to make the OLC directives most effective. It's a terrible job, it's much either to carp and then criticize after the fact, about what needed to be done like John Goldsmith did; And/or leak it to the Times.


Yeah, it's lovely how many of the supposed sins of the Bush administration are really things that started under Clinton.

The Echelon surveillance system's another one.


Hope all the JOMers had a good Thanksgiving holiday! Still looking at the thread.

JM Hanes

Happy Thanksgiving Rich!


Yeah, it's lovely how many of the supposed sins of the Bush administration are really things that started under Clinton.

The Echelon surveillance system's another one.

Not only that, look at all the Evvviiillllll Bush programs that were either Sunsetted or set up so they intentionally had to be debated every year. The Patriot Act and the ongoing conflicts and Iraq and Afghanistan spring immediately to mind.


Listening to all the apologists here with their "he's not that bad" appeals is hilarious. He's a fucking idiot. And McCain was bottom of the class at Canoe U. Glad to know his sister married a billionaire though. What a fucking tramp.


Bush is exactly what Johnson warned about in Stover at Yale. Someone who gets pulled into secret society because of his family rathet than accomplishments at school. He stinks.


Listening to all the apologists here with their "he's not that bad" appeals is hilarious.

Okay, TCO. I'll say it straight out: Bush has made mistakes (who hasn't?), but on the whole, he's been a darn good President. I'd be happy to have a third Bush term.

I ain't apologizing to you or anyone for saying that.


Jor asks

Has anything good come out of the South in the last 100 years?
Well, not much apparently. There's President Lyndon B. Johnson, Speaker of the House Wright, Vice Presidential candidate and Senator Lloyd Bentsen, and those are just the Democratic failures that I can think of offhand.

You can rest assured of one thing, Jor. Down here in the hinterlands we can smell a skunk a mile away, and guys like you are routinely detected on our highways.


Oh, c'mon TCO, don't add secret society paranoia to your list of personal attributes.

Interesting news from the south might be that the state boards of election in South Carolina and Virginia are demanding to see Obama's qualifications.


They can smell a skunk. Something about US v. Wong Kim Ark.

kim has lots of interesting stuff.


I think the jist of this all is that even if Obama was born in Hawai'i he is failing to meet the legal requirements of 'natural born citizen' because of his dual citizenship. Ooooh, boy, is this going to be a mess.

Captain Hate

bush has NO KEEN INTEREST IN ANYTHING{except money}!

Do you have an interest in anything except making an ass out of yourself with every post? Bush, to no great fanfare (unlike a certain olive-skinned nicotine-addicted bastard), regularly invited university historians to the White House to discuss how past matters with contemporary parallels were dealt with. But don't let that interfere with your comic-book view of the world provided by the dead-enders of the MSM and nutjobs elsewhere on the web.

You obviously have no ability for introspection because a person with a functioning feedback system would be mortified by the derision that your comments produce and go away. TM must have a perverted sense of humor by not banning you. If it were my blog I'd do things differently.


You see, I think this takes out Taranto's objections about questions of law. There is Supreme Court precedent for Donofrio's objection, that he doesn't meet the precise definition of 'natural born citizen'. One can be born in the USA and not meet that definition.

If so, the Supreme Court may take it up on that basis, where they might not take up a case of voyeurism about his birth certificate. I am not a lawyer, so I'm struggling with all this, but the big boys think there is a case there. What say, big girl clarice? I know you are busy.


kim: Clarice flies home today from California. Don't know when she will see your question.


What do you think of it? 'Count Us Out' seems to have most of the hot stuff.




kim is Donofrio's new blog. He's being hounded by google.

digital dissertation

Blogs are good for every one where we get lots of information for any topics nice job keep it up !!!

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