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November 16, 2008

Comments

Laura

Thomas,
a few of the NR panel appeared to be big supporters, John O'Sullivan, Kathryn Lopez(sporting a rhinestone Palin pin most of the time),Jay Nordlinger is a fan as is Mark Steyn. My husband read Mona Charen the riot act at dinner after an afternnon session. Not one of the 8 on the panel named Palin as the 2012 nominee when asked who they thought that might be. The real disgrace is that not one mentioned her ability to electrify and energize the base, or the work she has done in Alaska.
Most mentioned Bobby Jindal, whom I like a lot, but does not have Palin's appeal. Many do seem out of touch with the base, even within the select group which made up the cruise Palin was an absolute winner. I think you are right about the source of their prejudice. If the conservative leaders think they can ignore the pulse of the rank and file they will not succeed in coming back into the majority.

Jane

Thomas,

Like everywhere else, there was little discussion about Obama. I mean really, what it there to discuss? He's stripped his website of all his policy positions, he's hired a cadre of lobbyists for his transition team and he spends his days at the gym.

What I found almost scary is that on comedy night (Mark, Jonah and Rob) there were no Obama jabs that I can recall. There just isn't much there to talk about I guess.

Jane

Clarice,

I went to great lengths to get a picture just for you on the cruise. I plan to have it framed for my desk. You will know it when you see it. (I trust you didn't miss the one of the JOM butts.)

sylvia

I also agree Po. One thing we need to ask the libs is, "which do you prefer Bush to have done on Iraq?"

A.) Lift the sanctions? In which case Hussein would for sure start developing nukes, as he had all the prep in place while probably Hussein and Sons start making mischief with the Kuwait and Saudi Arabian borders.

B.) Keep the sanctions? And watch Iraqi children die of starvation while Saddam and the Ruskies line their pockets, and Osama uses the sanctions as a rallying cry for jihadis the world over?

C.) Invade with a short war and install a democractic government there? Thereby getting rid of a cruel dictator, and getting rid of the oil for food corruption and establishing the first democracy in the Middle East, creating a legacy and an example that will last for years?

Which do you prefer libs? We need an honest answer from them.

Laura

Clarice,
i think Jane has a good one with her and MS together. i have one with most of us together with MS but my great point and shoot camera got silly with the flash so it is full of glare and starbursts. Hopefully, Caro will make it passable.

Amused bystander

Po: What you said about Bush -- Hear, Hear!

clarice

I can't tell you how really happy I am to have the two of your back and I await--really I do--those pics. (I DID SEE THE DAMN BUTTS ALREADY,JANE>)

MayBee

Were those really the JOM butts?
If so== bravo, girls.

Pofarmer

Steve Macintyre got the ball rolling by questioning the hockey stick. He's pretty much demolished it, and all it's variants. Craig Lohle just came along and pretty much bookended it by showing that the entire methodology of using tree rings for temperature proxies is most likely flawed.

Jaworski, and now Beck, question the CO2 numbers. I suspect they are more right than Mauna Loa and Ice cores. The ice cores, especially, have numerous issues.

Watts and others are now questioning the validity of the temperature measurements, if not the absolutes. And, nobody has been able to explain how Hansen get's .1 C measurements from temperatures that are only taken to a degree. It's not good science.

If AGW is a three legged stool, there are beavers knawing hard on all three. How long before the thing falls over?

centralcal

Pofarmer: Your 8:00 pm post - YES! YES!

HR 8799

Toronto was Trudeau liberals and we all know that now.

bad

HR, how is Pegasus?

DrJ

Could someone suggest a paper that gives a good overview of the current state-of-the-art in climate change modeling? I'd prefer something in the open literature (as opposed to a web site).

I've not really followed the discussion much, but I'd be interested in how the models are put together. I've done this sort of thing for oil recovery and for toxic contaminant fate, but that is ages ago when desktop computing was in its infancy.

Extraneus

I liked Lord Monckton's Climate Sensitivity Reconsidered from the July 2008 APS, but I'm pretty biased.

Elliott

how is Pegasus?

In a lot better shape than Bellerophon, whose fall as he sought the realm of the Gods recalls the Alinsky dedicatee frequently invoked by the commenter of many names.

windansea

he's simply gone mad in the last few years as the temperatures have not done what he expected them to do.

Faced with falling global temps in most of the civilized world, Hansen and Co look to Russia and the Artic to boost AGW where nobody lives or could tell the difference between -70 and -22C

TCO? Stevie Mac runs circles around Gavin and Tamino

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=4370

Extraneus

I don't know if that paper was ever actually published in the APS Journal or anywhere else, btw.

bad

In a lot better shape than Bellerophon...

Ahhh, the might of a fly...

DrJ

Ext,

That fine as far as it goes, but I was looking more for a "here's the equations" approach. All of them, and what they include (and neglect).

windansea

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/gistemp_after_october_correction.gif

DrJ

The previous article in that issue of the APS was "A Tutorial on the Basic Physics of Climate Change." That looks to be just what I had in mind.

Now if they would have it as a PDF...

bad

...the might of a fly...

Undoubtedly a luciferian fly.

DrJ

windansea,

You link is bad.

Antimedia
Anyway, history will tell whether Bush should be treated as a moron or an honorable man doing everything within his power to do the impossible. Prevent another attack.
Why wait for history? I think Bush's presidency, on balance, will be seen as at least above average, if not one of the greater ones. (Not by biased liberal historians, of course.) He certainly could have done better, particularly on spending, and he should have been astute at realizing that when you reach across the present aisle you need to have protection behind you.
windansea

the hunt for red october

TCO

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=4370

McI is just a rhetorical mess in this. He starts off the discussion as if we are going to learn something as to GHCN versus GISS or he at least will clairfy his stance of who he blames...but then he just meanders and says he looked at some stuff and also in the past criticized GHCN. The guy never comes out and delivers on the topic in question, NOW. Reading this guy's tripe and trying to extract analysis is just fucking painful.

windansea

look at that huge chunk of plus 8C or more in Siberia

yummy AGW goodness

windansea

TCO... just register under an undercover ISP and go to comments at CA

you can do it....

Elliott

Undoubtedly a luciferian fly.

Jupiterian actually.

glasater

That sure looks warmer than what's going on in your part of the world winansea.

TCO

La Jolla local surf spot: CA isn't running circles around anyone by his own dojo meandering blog posts, with moron RINO fucks like you cheering him on...as if he were Mort Downey. Fucker hasn't published in 4 years. What a fucking loser.

TCO

I'm not banned, Gidget.

DrJ

Turn out a colleague of mine directs the climate change center at a major west coast University. I asked for his advice on the overview I'm seeking. I'll post the info if there is any interest.

bad

Jupiterian actually.

of Olympian heritage

Elliott

and Titanic parentage.

bad

What an adventure!

Elliott

and Titanic parentage.

Glad I waited till the end of the cruise to trot that adjective out.

windansea

That sure looks warmer than what's going on in your part of the world windansea.

it's frickin cold aqui

the pool and ocean are like 28C

windansea

I'm not banned, Gidget.

no, just whack

TCO

http://volokh.com/posts/1226765488.shtml

You all are crazy to be in favor of government intervention. Don't you understand that government is not smarter than markets. The whole thing was a bunch of goldman cocksuckers along with idiot politicians in the middle of an election not having the balls to let some bankruptcies occur (which will occur anyhow, just after we pour trillions of dollars into bailing out hedge funds). You fucking RINOS. I hope Obama rapes your babies.

windansea

TCO and the Magic Blanket

DrJ

Any opinions on this paper? "How well do we understand climate change feedback processes?" J. Climate, 19, 3445-3482 (2006).

windansea

TCO's multicolored blanket

Pofarmer

I'll post the info if there is any interest.

Absolutely.

FWIW, my moment of questioning came when I called up and talked to the head of the Meteorology department at the University of MO. Weather and Climate are rather important in what I do and I was trying to do some long range planning. Anyway, there had been s bunch of articles in Ag publications on Global warming. So I called and asked him about it. Well, he said pretty much "I just don't think there's enough evidence to make that determination." or something pretty close to that. So, I said "Whoa" let's look around, and from there on in it's been pretty much a one way road.

McCloud

Hansen angrily accused Bush of trying to "muzzle" him several years ago. After seeing this it looks like Mr. misunderestimated's legacy is getting off to a fine start.

kim

Hi, Gidget!

TCO, I understand we appreciate what Steve is doing in different fashions. You are a harsh and sophisticated critic, and often unfair. windansea's critique of you is not unfair, but I prefer to think of you in more Godlike fashion, Janus, in the swinging gate mode.

My claim that you were banned at climateaudit may not be factual.

Steve is an awfully tolerant moderator whose editing, AKA snipping, can be maddening, but he has ended up with one of the most interesting boards on earth and there is little question that he inspires more skepticism than any other single person, despite claiming not to be a denier and acting the part. He's willing to be convinced that CO2=AGW, he just wants the proof to make sense. lucia is also not skeptical per se. They both are willing to follow the data where it will take them, which is the primary failure of the warmers right now. Leif, too, is not 'skeptical', but you should hear him denigrate the IPCC.
=========================================

DrJ

I'll see what comes back, Po, but it may well be that our interests are a bit different. I live off of partial differential equations, and lot of them. I'd think that is not quite your interest.

I'll post what I learn. Be advised my colleague is in applied mathematics.

Pofarmer

Spiffy

"The government will do ``whatever it takes'' to revive the economy, Obama said. That means ``we shouldn't worry about the deficit next year or even the year after,''"

LUN

Dave

The fact is, Bush did have a chance after 9/11. He squandered it, and then the Dems went back to what they always do.
I must have imagined all the moonbats calling him a coward for heading toward Nebraska in Air Force One that very afternoon. I suppose a few took a break from photoshopping his face onto monkeys in order to watch CNN or something.

kim

I'd say mood of many colors, but then I'd have to dig out my 'Interpreter's' and read up on Joseph. See ya' soon.
=================================

Pofarmer
WASHINGTON — U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe said Saturday that Congress was not told the truth about the bailout of the nation's financial system and should take back what is left of the $700 billion "blank check'' it gave the Bush administration.

"It is just outrageous that the American people don't know that Congress doesn't know how much money he (Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson) has given away to anyone,'' the Oklahoma Republican told the Tulsa World.

"It could be to his friends. It could be to anybody else. We don't know. There is no way of knowing.''

Inhofe's comments, unusually pointed even for a senator known for being blunt, come on the heels of Paulson's shift in how he thinks the bailout funds should be spent.

Last week the Treasury secretary announced he was abandoning his plan to free up the nation's credit system by buying up toxic assets from troubled financial institutions. Instead, Paulson wants to take a more direct action on the consumer credit front.

"He was able to get this authority from Congress predicated on what he was going to do, and then he didn't do it,'' Inhofe said.

"So, that's enough reason right there.''

What a clusterfuck.

LUN

kim

Dave, I like to think of the concentrated attention he gave to response while waiting for Secret Service to clear him for movement, as he multi-tasked auditorily 'The Pet Goat'. What do they say about vengeance being a juice best served chilled?
====================================

kim

I don't know, Pof. Throwing that two thirds trillion where it was aimed a month and a half ago may not be the right thing to do. The target has moved. It would be nice to know where Paulson will put it. He'd probably like to know the best place, too.
====================================

TCO

I'm truly sorry for my outburst earlier. I don't hope Obama rapes your babies. You are all probably right about AGW.

I'm going through a lot of shit right now and I hope you all will be patient with me.

Pofarmer

Well Kim, I think the deal is, that we're dealing with numbers so large, that a trillion here or there is just money down the rathole.

RichatUF

TCO-

Fuck off.

kim

Joseph is thrown by his brothers into a pit-a dreadful physical fact. But morally and spiritually, too, it may often seem that the soul of man is in a pit. The realization of this may come with shocking suddenness. Joseph at one moment walked in the sunlight in his coat of many colors; the next moment he was down in stifling darkness. One moment he seemed to have no need of anything' the next moment he had agonized need of everything. So with human souls. From self-sufficiency they may be plunged into paralyzing helplessness and desperate need of God. Yet at Joseph's worst moment there were unsuspected forces moving for his release. God's purpose working through its own instruments would carry his life on to deliverance and great destiny.

TIB, v. 1, p. 754, 1952.
============

TCO

Rich:

I'd like to personally apologize to you for my behavior.

Just so all of you know, I suffer from Dissociative Identity Disorder. Some days I'm fine. Other days, I'm, quite literally, not myself.

I really appreciate everyone's patience here. Despite what I have written during my fugues, I am still learning about AGW. I especially value Kim for her insights, which have taught me a lot.

Again, please forgive me.

RichatUF

Pofarmer-

Projections for the FY09 and FY10 deficits exceed 1 trillion dollars each year-that ain't going to get made up trimming a few line items on the DOD budget.

FY06 deficit was $248 billion
FY07 deficit was $162 billion
FY08 deficit was $438 billion (this includes upwards of $150 billion in TARP and other Treasury spending)

cathyf
It would be nice to know where Paulson will put it. He'd probably like to know the best place, too.
I have to say that my mostly-supportive position on Paulson has converted to a much more skeptical position ever since they came up with the plan to pay interest on reserves. It's a terrifyingly clueless plan.
Joe Gloor

TCO = *

under any and all manifestations.

Rick Ballard

"I'll post the info if there is any interest."

I'd be interested. Mainly to see which of the incestuous group pops to center circle. There is a lists of published papers at CA arranged by category on the left sidebar. There is also a crew of mathematicians and statisticians (plus the odd physicist or twelve) on standby at CA to provide answers on request.

Any review of the "literature" is going to lead you straight into a "as Bob said about Harry's analysis of the subset which Peter dealt with in his review of Tom's commentary on Bob's work". Look closely and the circle will magically appear right before your eyes. Try not to let the word "jerks" enter your mind as you contemplate the intricate cross fertilization of completely sterile thought emanating from The Team.

Let the world know if you find the Magic and Sacred ALGOREithm. Hansen says it exists and Mann swears to it by all that's unholy. It's just never been seen by anyone not admitted to The Team.

DrJ

Rick,

I have no illusions about what I find. The math is too dumb to lie. As are the measurements.

I usually avoid these sorts of things, as the politics are more important than the science. But hey, I'll look at it. Probably nonsense after a few layers of the onion is peeled away.

Pofarmer

It's a terrifyingly clueless plan.

Well, they're trying to prevent a lockup of the credit markets, or car makers going under, or people losing their homes, or insurance company failures triggering CDS obligations, or, something.

cathyf

If they are trying to prevent those things, they'd be charging interest, not paying it. As in a negative interest rate, aka "service fee". Sometimes if you want the money to fly, you gotta push it right out of the nest!

Pofarmer

Sometimes if you want the money to fly, you gotta push it right out of the nest!

Posted by: cathyf | November 16, 2008 at 11:40 PM

Which was kinda my point all along. If the Feds were worried about the commercial paper market they could have just written or backed the paper. Why give hundreds of billions to intermediaries who were insolvent and then "hope" they would write the paper?

Pofarmer

Now hold on Cathyf.

I just read your comment again.

Are you saying that Paulson was paying off his buddies?

RichatUF

cathyf-

But aren't banks holding onto excess reserves because they don't know when the next hedge fund, insurance company, or another bank might go under, or some bear raid arsonists might just might get that urge? I see what your saying, but until the Fed and Treasury get on the same sheet of music regarding the CDSs (and the knock off effect of fund liquidations whenever someone files a bankruptcy petition) it is going to be this stop-and-start program. It's like every time they start digging through the dirt another mine goes off which becomes the problem of the day. I don't know anymore, I'd just like to get off the ride.

In good news, Pakistan will probably need 15 billion or so in the next week or they could meltdown like Iceland or Argentina earlier this decade.

Rick Ballard

"The math is too dumb to lie. As are the measurements."

True. If all the data sets are, shall we say, complete. Look at the data set analysis at CA regarding various small problems concerning data archives. There is a bit of full body massage going on with the data. After it's nice and relaxed it's run through a four-barrel data enHansenizer and plugged into the Magic and Sacred ALGOREithm, suitable for use by the IPCC.

Mathematics is truly too dumb to lie but it's cousin, Statistics, doesn't have quite as clean a reputation.

I really wish Arrhenius was still around. I believe he would be very amused.

Rick Ballard

Rich,

I vote for a scope discovery on the CDS problem by the Fed and Treasury. The synthetic CDS market was just too tempting - selling way out of the money puts looked like an easy way to boost profit.

The Fed and Treasury did not have a grip on the extent of the problem. How could they? The market in CDS is unregulated and the liability incurred seems to fit into that nice "contingent" area rather neatly.

Asia has opened mixed - cross your fingers.

rhymin' simon

The fact is, Bush did have a chance after 9/11. He squandered it, and then the Dems went back to what they always do.

I started reading JOM for its Plame coverage. The Cia and State Department in cahoots with the media took on the administration and Bush trusted Powell and Tent and because Bush won by a chad he did not want to be controversial in dispatching many of yhe incompetants although he had a few in Gonzalez and Meiers.
The media over blowing katrina was the last nail in the administration's coffin.
The media saw that they could get away with the Plame lie and have done it ever since.

Pofarmer

Well, this is gonna make things a little hard for Barack Hussein, no?

The Iraqi cabinet voted overwhelmingly Sunday to approve the security agreement that sets the conditions for the Americans' continued presence in Iraq from Jan. 1 until the end of 2011.

This is from the Boston Globe link earlier.

He said that after he takes office, he will begin executing a plan to draw down U.S. troops in Iraq and send some to Afghanistan, ``which has continued to worsen.''

So, maybe he has cooled his rhetoric somewhat.

Pofarmer

Ah well crap. About that rise in racial violence following Barack Husseins election?

Meanwhile in Mississippi... A 19 year-old man was arrested for sending threatening e-mails with racial overtones to students at several universities.
Dyron Hart, who is black, posed as a white male upset with Barack Obama's presidential victory.
The Daily Comet reported:


A former Nicholls State University student was arrested by federal agents in Mississippi in connection with threatening electronic messages sent to students at Nicholls and other schools through a popular networking Web site.

Dyron Hart, 19, of Poplarville, Miss., who was arrested Wednesday, allegedly told investigators he wanted to create a “reaction” when he sent Facebook “friends” across three states a message stating he planned to kill 3,000 people, including them, in the wake of Sen. Barack Obama’s presidential victory Nov. 4.

The messages were sent early Nov. 5.

The message recipients, like Hart, are black. But authorities said he gave the impression in the messages, sent under another name, that he was white.

Nice.

Les Kneecapper Nessman

So, can we trust all these 'global temperature recording stations' to report truthful numbers or are they reporting 'trooful' numbers; for our own 'good', of course.

Doddagressitstherepublicansruiningeverything

The G20 has an 'action plan.' It sounds like development work and all those foreign aid five year emergency sustainable budgets.

Osbourne is concerned about Blair and his GDp/GNP tax and the terror that doubled the tax.

Rove should die 'cause he might have more of those meetings and find out about Plame spy shit.

Republicans won't finance auto makers, but dems will, but that's because they squeezed the Canadians into paying out their pensions, but everyone noticed the PMs change to running a deficit to save the world. He had no choice and he looked nervous. The priority is selling the CBCs 1.1 billion a year.

Secret ballot to destroy Lieberman sounds like Honda and Obama's plan to get rid of the electoral college, but Obama already got those 'extra' states before the legislated electoral college vote in December.

Obama: Kill Bin laden!!!

Loose lips sink ships.

You can get that from an infection? I got one at my doctor's office and I haven't been myself since..............

The discovery should be the Merrill bail out of the Asian buy out and Obama's pal who timed it.

It looks like we're going into the real crash. Obama is being used again.

Pofarmer

And what the hell does Hillary bring as Secretary of State?

None of these appointments is about anything but politics.

rhymin' simon

Scarry Larry reporting that O to offer Johnny Man Secretary of Defense

Joe Gloor

I'm sorry, but doesn't Sentator Hillary do more (damage) as Senator than Secretary of State Hillary?

Ann

Po, Dittos on the Bravo at 8pm! I love your spirit.
________________________________

I don't know where to post this, but you have to read it:
Journalists, Glorying in Obama's Moment or BAM-A-LOT

Guess who said this: " The adjectives tumble over one another. He is not only the handsomest, the best-dressed, the most articulate, and graceful as a gazelle. He is omniscient; he swallows and digests whole books in minutes; he confounds experts with his superior knowledge of their field. He is omnipotent."

bgates

When education reform was brought to the fore he let TED KENNEDY write the damn legislation? How in the FUCK has Bush squandered anything?
You provide your own answer. Bush never had a chance for cooperation from the vipers in DC, but he wasted the chance to go around them and make his case to the public at some small fraction of the frequency and passion with which the case against him was made. The second most devastating rejoinder against the Republican case for anything is, "if that's so, why don't I ever hear it from Bush?"
The most devastating is, "if that's so, why do I hear the exact opposite from Bush?" On immigration, government spending, regulating political speech, education, and now corporatist bailouts of big business, Bush is a sober, svelte Ted Kennedy.
He got the war right. In military or humanitarian terms, it has been a remarkable campaign. Nonetheless, he may have given his successor the opportunity to become the first national leader in history to retroactively declare defeat in a war.

DrJ

Rick,

I have no illusions about what I find. The math is too dumb to lie. As are the measurements.

I usually avoid these sorts of things, as the politics are more important than the science. But hey, I'll look at it. Probably nonsense after a few layers of the onion is peeled away.

PeterUK

Mark Steyn's publisher has made discrete inqiries as to his whereabouts.Steyn hasn't been seen since the cruise.
No action will be taken if the JOMer who took him quietly puts him back.

narciso

On immigration, Bush was a border state gov, so was Clinton, if you go back so was Reagan. What really sparked the massive Mexican immigration; was the banking crisis
of 1982; which resulted from the bubble of petrodollars from the '73-74 period, which the likes of Lopez de Portillo used to enrich themselves. Does this sound familiar to anyone? It should that's what we'll be winding our way through to 2010 most likely.
The problem is our new fearless leader, really thinks Carter's policies were the solution; meaning the titanic interest rate raises of Volcker, with no real fiscal restraint. Mind you, just a tiny sample of thia under Greenspan, created the spread which shattered the subprime market.
Disaster all around, or as Blutarski would
say "I'dadvise you to start drinking heavily" Make mine, a double.

On education, the warning signs were there almost as long ago; with the first "Nation at Risk" reports, about the chronic underpreparation and lack of motivation of
that generation of public school attendees.
Bennett tried to put some focus on it, was rebuffed; there was a long interregnum with Cavazos and Riley. Then there was NCLB; which was a good idea in theory, but of course, was subverted because it showed too clearly the level of underpreparedness and outright disdain for education in the youth culture; focusing more intently on the
'bling' materialist culture, and 'the shells' from Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 (I-pod, cell phone, Mp-3 player, playstation).
Not surprisingly, all sorts ofdysfunctional externalities flow from that. The blackberry
addict isn't going to help us very much there either.

Campaign finance reform was a joke, or at least a clever subterfuge by which the Soros interests thought to manipulate political speech and suppress any idea of a bourgeois free market message. Buckley had suppressed it's rise after Watergate, McCain was the water carrier, Bush reluctantly adopted it after the last financial scandals, and the courts were beginning to dismantle it; now for naught
because libertarians, some too pure conservatives, and leaning independents
didn't like Sarah Palin's wolf shooting
skills. Great, take foot, open mouth, repeat till neccessary.

kim

Steve McIntyre and crew of commenters are doing the autopsy in a new post at climateaudit.org entitled 'OK, What Caused the Problem?'.

DrJ, the problem is in the insolubility of the differential equations. The models inadequately parameterize convection and cloud formation which are described by such equations. The models make an incorrect assumption about the water vapor feedback to initial CO2 forcing, assigning it a large positive number. Roy Spencer, from satellite data, is demonstrating that number is small and variable. People like Koutsoyiannis are exploring the essential unpredictability of climate.

TCO, we endeavour to give satisfaction. I salute your honesty.
======================================

narciso

href*<http://www.redstate.com/diaries/dave in florida/2008/-if we go the banquet, do we miss the nuclear holocaust/>

centralcal

PUK: Looks like the JOM gals spread the word around about this blog.

See LUN for End of the Cruise, Part 2, and notice the link in Scott's discussions about Mark Steyn.

TCO

2241 and 2259 were not me, but I do appreciate the kind Dr. Jekyll aspect portrayed.

Kim: When you say things like 'see Leif denigrate IPCC', it reflects a certain failing that I see in much of my side. Because I call out to account, Steve, they think that I must support IPCC. Or conversely, because someone calls out IPCC, they must be on our side. That is just the echo chamber herding instinct of the blogosphere where people interact to reinforce their beleifs and to have the comfort of others reinforcing them...and where they react strongly against those who take an eclectic point of view of pursuing truth. Studies have been done of this social phenomenon. Volokh had a post on it.

TCO

There were HUGE side bets being made on defaults. Why anyone thinks the government should make whole losers (or winners, by bailing out losers) is beyond me. This was rank speculation. The absolute, cleanest, quickest way to clean this stuff up is to let the losers go under. The finance system will still function fine in terms of extending credit rationally to valid risks. The laws of supply and demand have not been repealed folks. If there is a valid risk, people will lend to it. They will not lend to places that are way to risky (but that is RATIONAL). And btw, it is even RATIONAL not to loan (or to loan at higher rates) to small businesses, should the businesses be endangered by recession, etc.

What Paulson and the Fed are doing, is actually screwing things up worse, by creating huge uncertainty and by delaying needed losses by financial players.

TCO

People, this "cure" is a lot worse than the sickness. That trillion dollars didn't come from nowhere. It came out of taxpayer's pockets (including future taxpayers). Let's leave that money with the people who earned it. Rather than giving it to the government to redistribute to financial players.

TCO

Academic economists favor my point of view. The whole Paulson point of view was never well argued. Was not policy before the money was demanded, etc. It's just not even rational discussion. Just a gun to the head, a demand for money, and a refusal to even debate the (flawed understanding of) economics.

boris

It came out of taxpayer's pockets

Nobody took any out of my pocket. Besides Obamba is giving everybody a tax cut. Try to stay in character fer chrissake you're supposed to be TuCO (the ugly) not TuCO (the schizo idiot).

Syl

TCO

Lucia is not a 'typical denialist', as you called her. In fact she's not a denialist at all. Neither is Dr. Svalgaard for that matter. There's a huge difference between accepting without question the political rhetoric of warmers and accepting as fact that CO2 has some effect.

The only people who can rightly be called denialists are those who claim that CO2 cannot and does not have any effect at all.

To behave otherwise by lumping those with uncomfortable things to say into one broad category called 'denialist' is to do a disservice to true denialists.


narciso

IPCC was and always be a fraud; the last gasp of the Club of Rome/Ehrlich ZPG austerity mentality. It was to designed to shutter the First World in favor of the oligarchs of the 3rd and $th World. How many fraudulent data points, CO2 is not a pollutant! unless we are the ultimate pollutants; re the previous point.

Uncle BigBad

I caught a glimpse of Soros testifying about the bailout. He looked like he was very ill, almost unrecognizable until he spoke.

Does anyone know if he's as sick as he looks?

He was saying that it was a mistake not to bail out Lehman. I couldn't stand to look at him so I changed the channel. We all know what he's going to say anyway.

Rick Ballard

"The only people who can rightly be called denialists are those who claim that CO2 cannot and does not have any effect at all."

I don't believe I've seen anyone do that. The tautology is "the whole of the climate system consists of many elements, a change in the composition of the mix of elements will have an affect on the entire system".

To which the proper reply is "No kidding, what affect, how large an affect and when will the affect occur?". The Warmers' answers aren't holding up particularly well. Taxing air probably won't have much of an affect on climate. It will on your bank account though.

RichatUF

TCO-

The absolute, cleanest, quickest way to clean this stuff up is to let the losers go under.

Like what happened in Iceland?

There were HUGE side bets being made on defaults.

And people were gaming the futures and options markets and forcing "the smartest guys in the room" bond-ratings agencies, because of Basal II, to push otherwise solvent firms to raise greater amounts of capital, capital which doesn't exist.

The laws of supply and demand have not been repealed folks.

Weren't not talking supply-and-demand. Government's role is stable money, more here. Post "bailout" the inflationary signals in the commodities markets have collapsed (though their are still some true believers left) and the dollar has been strengthening against most currencies except the Yen.

That trillion dollars didn't come from nowhere. It came out of taxpayer's pockets (including future taxpayers).

The Treasury is selling bonds to willing parties from around the world. So much for the death of the dollar.

Let's leave that money with the people who earned it.

Your argument is with Rangel who is planning a round of tax increases on individuals not the people at the Treasury Department trying to navigate through a minefield blindfolded.

Syl

The fact is, Bush did have a chance after 9/11.

My Pet Goat. Hello!!

RichatUF

their are...there are

clarice

I think climate warmists are getting less fashionable, and since this is a largely faddish popular culture of idiot problem, let's hope so--it is more potent a mechanism for beating it back than all the good science in the world would be.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2008/1115/1226408678797.html>AGW like bell bottom pants

Syl

Sheeeeeeesh. :)

On both my above comments, Kim beat me to it. Shoulda known to read the entire thread first. In all honesty I'm pleased as heck that the two of us seem to think somewhat alike!!

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