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January 12, 2009

Comments

Jane

And my mood!

MayBee

Of course she didn't probably for much the same reason Mukasey wouldn't define torture.

How are the two alike? His answer had legal implications. Hers is just whether she supports a bill Obama supposedly supports.

jean

Hotair has about the most depressing link.Obama is going to send 30,000 more troops to Afganistan,but doesn't think it will do any good.How horrible for the troops your C.and C already said your mission is useless

Uncle BigBad

Isn't it ironic that everyone is in a dither over Clinton Library donations, while except for a few bloggers prior to the election, Obama's entire illegal fundraising operation is going unmentioned.

And furthermore, it will never, ever be mentioned in the MSM.

Rick Ballard

"Can you tell one thing, Obama has done to help people in any of the jobs he's held before this."

Damn right I can. When he directed funding to the hospital where she was pretending to work, Michelle got a raise big enough to put fruit on the table for months. When he stacked the Illinois boards for Rezko, crooked contractors across Chicago were able to increase hiring on make work projects throughout the state. When he stole money designated to help Chicago school kids, hundreds of ACORN bums were put into do nothing minimum wage jobs.

The man is a real doer. For the right price.

Annoying Old Guy
Could Cadillac Deval be elected dogcatcher in the Blue Hell of MA today?
Blagojevich was re-elected by a landslide in 2006.
Sue

So, in order to gain votes we must ignore the rule of law. Yeah. I should just become a democrat.

Barney Frank

But the perception, and perception is reality...

and we are dangerously perceived as being the people who are propping up a lot of local dictatorships which isn't in our long term intest either

Ah, the liberal mindset in full fruition.
Declare what others perceive or, alternately, shape what others believe through the NYT and other liberal organs and then tell your opponent that they must abandon all their principles to survive, because clearly the world has permanently rejected them.
And yet when liberals lose elections they never seem to take their own advice to heart.
Kind of makes you wonder if people like John argue in good faith, doesn't it?

Soylent Red

Talk about pat answers John. I don't know where or with whom you've spent time in the Middle East, but just FYI, Afghanistan isn't the Middle East. It's Central Asia. The commonly accepted wisdom regarding the "Arab street" doesn't apply.

Even if it did, just like a typical lib you see the world as a set of homogeneous voting/affinity blocs. Unfortunately for you and your argument, the real world, even the Arab world, doesn't work that way. If you think this is about religion, you're just not paying attention. Ask yourself why Fatah would drop the dime on Hamas to Israel if there was any religious stake in the argument. It's about control and money John. End of story.

Also FYI, Islam is practiced differently there, and there is a great disdain for the Arab almost everywhere east of Iraq. Street level hatred of Israel isn't even prevalent in partially Arab Iran, and Afghanistan has almost no Arabs to speak of. Just because they say their prayers in Saudi Arabic doesn't make them think like Saudis.

Spending time listening to the jabbering masses in Kuwait or Qatar doesn't count for shit when it comes to knowing the Afghan people. You don't know what you're talking about, trust me. Or don't and continue to look foolish. I've got a cookbook to write.

Topsecretk9

I'm pre-ordering my copy

"I never have,"[written a book] Cheney said. "and my family has been bugging me about it. I've got 40 years since I came to town to stay 12 months. I've got a lot of stories to tell. And a few scores to settle."
MayBee

Having spent a lot of time in the middle east I can assure you detestation of Israel is universal in muslim communities across the region and has gone off the chart over the past five years.

So what do these muslim communities want, John? What expectations do they have for Hamas?

narciso

God you are like plutonium level stupid, so beating up on the only other democracy in the
Middle East is the right solution. Are you like Mahmoud Abbas, 'our shining partner in peace' who denied the Holocaust, but thought it was a good idea, anyways. By the way, now you listen to Lord Rove, not anytime before.

By the way, this perception was almost
entirely a #R$%@^&%*( lie) that did not occur by accident, but on purpose, I've chronicled in my small way, how the very nature of practically all information we rely on, was corrupted in this campaign. Nos she will never back down, because she did nothing wrong, in fact she has done more things right than most other current
and past figures I could name. That you come in here and drag your patented garbage
doesn't speak well of you, John in the brief
time I've known you.

clarice

Can't be a sexist, Jane--He probably sports every color ribbon there is on his Schwinn.

Hoekstra announses he fully supports Penetta for CIA director--says the agency is full of lying bags of S*(& and needs an outside manager.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2ZjNTIwZDgyMjYzZGM5MDgxNGIwNGU4MWNjYzNiMzM=>Hoekstra for Panetta

Danube of Thought

Well, when you get to Florida, load up on the vodka and Kit Kat bars anyway.

Extraneus

I accidentally ended up at Slate's homepage somehow yesterday, and was amused to see a big headline calling Bush a "moron." Not very original, since Reagan was also a moron if I remember right, but you can imagine I was pretty surprised a month or so ago to see the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee – old-hand figleaf running-mate for an unqualified novice and now himself soon to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency – handily defeated by a numbskull in a debate largely focused on foreign policy. What was even more surprising was the number of his mis-statements which had to be corrected the next day.

How unserious does someone need to be to have faith in a foreign policy team comprised of these two and Hillary?

ROA

If the prisoners in Gitmo are guilty of nothing, why can't they be released immediately?

From Newsweek 7-23-08:
A few years ago, the specter of Gitmo terrorists moving in next door might have invoked fear and panic on Capitol Hill. But no Democrat took Mukasey's dire warnings seriously enough to address them. Instead, they asked the A.G. about everything from the Justice Department's refusal to release internal legal opinions about harsh interrogations to overcrowding in the federal prisons and airline mergers.
Rep. Jerrold Nadler (Dem. NY), for one, offered an explanation for the snub: few if any Democrats now accept any of the Bush administration's basic premises on terrorism issues. "Most of them are guilty of nothing," he said about the Gitmo detainees, noting that one group of them, Chinese Uighurs (persecuted Muslim dissidents) would be considered "freedom fighters" by most Americans. "I think it's appalling that the president is still asking for the right to point the finger at anybody anywhere and say, `You're an enemy combatant,' and keep them locked up indefinitely," he said. LUN

What has changed in the last five months to make these poor innocent people so dangerous it will take a year to determine what to do with them?

John

Alright whoever was in charge of the troll traps, another one got through. God what a moron, can you walk and chew gum at the same time. You probably think we don't need oil, because you take the bus.
Posted by: narciso | January 13, 2009 at 11:17 AM

Actually I was in oil business for a awhile. And I must have managed to do the double act reasonably well since I managed to pay the mortgage and put three kids through a series of not inexpensive educational establishment. I also suspect I was voting Republican before you were born. I'm sorry like the vast majority of Americans I'm not buying your Palin as the Jeanne D'Arc of the tundra. I've hired a lot of folks in my time and I've seen the type too often.

Pofarmer

Kind of makes you wonder if people like John argue in good faith, doesn't it?

Not really.

Topsecretk9

I'm sorry like the vast majority of Americans

Um -- One , never trust anyone who has to couch their argument in the "vast majority" strawman

and two - please provide statistics to support your vast majority claim. Whether or not you like her, you can not support this claim.

John

If the prisoners in Gitmo are guilty of nothing, why can't they be released immediately?

Because some clearly are guilty of something and are very dangerous. The problem is we've swept up hundreds of small fry many of whom were sold to us by bounty hunting warlords, that's why hundreds have already been released after being held for years. It's this overly simplistic approach that keeps getting us in trouble.

PeterUK

"This whether you want to believe or not is a stain the US reputation like the Gulag or Devil's Island."

Precisely because the Loyal Opposition chose to make it so as part of the Democrat "America must lose at any price" policy.Same as al Qaeda.

narciso

It looks like you accomplished the troll demolition, pretty well over here, this guy makes TCO and Tesoro seem like Stephen Hawking. Sorry for the overreaction, all.

The news about his plans for Afghanistan don't surprise me, this echoes the Johnson tapes around the time of the 64-65 period, when he knew he couldn't win, yet sent the forces in anyway. He hasn't studied up on the British experience

Spoke too soon, he's back the one who
thinks deals with corrupt sheiks bring us
peace and prosperity, while ignoring our own resources. So the example of what happened to Khaybar and Yathrib is dispositive right.

MayBee

Thanks for pointing that out, clarice. I generally trust Hoekstra on Intelligence.

Pofarmer

I've hired a lot of folks in my time and I've seen the type too often.

What type would that be?

MayBee

The problem is we've swept up hundreds of small fry many of whom were sold to us by bounty hunting warlords, that's why hundreds have already been released after being held for years. It's this overly simplistic approach that keeps getting us in trouble.

There are only 250 prisoners left, aren't there?

Soylent Red

"I was a Republican when..."

False flag argument #27. Anyone who supports Obama, cannot by definition support anything the Republican Party, particularly pre-GWB, ever stood for.

matt

comparing Guantanamo to Devil's Island is absurd. It's a prison, but not a torture chamber. If nothing else, the Administration was very careful about the legalities. Any harsh methods were almost certainly used by 3rd parties in other countries.

As to Palin, she has a track record, and until she was nominated and trashed in an unprecedented frenzy of vitriol, had an excellent reputation for getting things done. Her career path was very similar to some of the best people this country has had in service. Obama, by comparison, has a tissue thin record in his entire career. People are judged by their actions, not words.

PeterUK

"Actually I was in oil business for a awhile."

You were a sardine packer?

"I also suspect I was voting Republican before you were born."

That's it then,a Moby.

Uncle BigBad

Funny how trolls are always long-time Republican voters.

Soylent Red

The problem is we've swept up hundreds of small fry many of whom were sold to us by bounty hunting warlords

Myth. If you've made it to Gitmo, you have successfully matriculated through the infamous "Catch and Release Program" in Afghanistan. You would have had to show on at least three levels in Afghanistan that you were a bigger fish than what is currently held at Bagram. Only then would you rate going to Gitmo.

This is provably wrong by anyone who knows anything about how EPW are handled and processed in Afghanistan.

matt

Obama's plan for an Afghanistan surge is a GD joke. The troops being deployed were scheduled 2 years ago and have been training to go for the past year. I'm going to a deployment ceremony Feb 3. As usual, the media and Obama are a bunch of damned liars.

Sue

I've got a cookbook to write.

LOL. Best ending to a smackdown. Evah!

John

Posted by: Soylent Red | January 13, 2009 at 11:36 AM


but just FYI, Afghanistan isn't the Middle East. It's Central Asia. The commonly accepted wisdom regarding the "Arab street" doesn't apply.

Actually I never said Afghanistan was in the middle east so don't misquote me. I said that in the main the sympathies of the muslim population in Afghanistan are with their fellow muslims in Palestine. It's also true in Pakistan, where I have spent time, and whose inhabitants aren't arabs either. If you don't get this get this you don't get anything. And what basis would you have for your belief that popular wisdom doesn't apply apart from your personal opinion. Pew has done polls in Pakistan and they hate Israel and us, and I can confirm that from personal knowledge.

jean

John maybe we send the Gitmo crowd to Saudi Arabia like the Clintons did.I'm sure there was no harsh treatment of those folks

Pofarmer

There are only 250 prisoners left, aren't there?

I think it's actually fewer than that.

John

Precisely because the Loyal Opposition chose to make it so as part of the Democrat "America must lose at any price" policy.Same as al Qaeda.

Posted by: PeterUK | January 13, 2009 at 11:50 AM

This would include Bob Gates I suppose the Republican SoD appointed by Bush who also wishes to close Gitmo for exactly the reasons I've enumerated and has said so several times. At some time you guys are going to have to make a visit to the real world.

Soylent Red

It's also true in Pakistan, where I have spent time, and whose inhabitants aren't arabs either. If you don't get this get this you don't get anything.

If you don't know that Paki anti-Semitism started in the 1980s in Saudi funded madrassahs set up and staffed by Wahhabists, you don't get anything. Find me one of those Wahabbist madrassahs in Afghanistan, O John of Arabia, and I'll buy the beer.

Spending time in Pakistan doesn't count either, John. Afghans hate Pakis too (actually think they are inferior race).

PeterUK

"I said that in the main the sympathies of the muslim population in Afghanistan are with their fellow muslims in Palestine."

They don't think about them from one day to the next.It is most likely they don't even know where Palastine is.


"Pew has done polls in Pakistan and they hate Israel and us, and I can confirm that from personal knowledge."

This is understandable.Do you not think world peace would be better served if you,personally,stopped traveling?

Soylent Red

Let me amend that last. Afghans hate everyone who isn't a Paki Pashto who they are distantly related to by blood. Unless the Afghan in question isn't Pashto, then they hate all Pakis.

John

There are only 250 prisoners left, aren't there?


I think it's actually fewer than that.

Posted by: Pofarmer | January 13, 2009 at 12:01 PM

It's about 250 down from around 750. In the meantime we've had farces like the trial of Bin Laden's driver who even the military commission are turning loose in a few month. It will be Bin Laden's barber next. These situations merely serve to make us look both tyrannical and inept.

Rick Ballard

"Actually I was in oil business for a awhile."

The switch to self-service moved a lot of people out of the oil business. Were you able to get work in a 7-Eleven or did the "making change" thing prove too high a barrier to entry?

jean

PUK LOL thanks I really needed a good laugh

MayBee

John- even Bush has said he wants to close Guantanamo.

MayBee

I'm just trying to figure out how the simplistic method of sweeping people up and sorting through them has failed us, if we've done just that. And now we're down to the last 250 that even Obama agrees are NOT simple cases.

Pofarmer

Looks like we've got one of Rush's country club republicans here. He probably thinks McCain was a great candidate that was only hampered by the Palin pick.

Soylent Red

You know Rick...

John's been to Pakistan, and has worked in the "oil business".

If he's ever been spotted working by Joe Biden, we'll know for sure.

narciso

It doesn't even compare to Andersonville or Camp Douglas who were two sides of the savagery of the Civil War. John, you heard of something called the ISI, Saudi General Intelligence; of course they focus on Israel to distract their people from their mismanagement, now more than ever. It's not true, just as that other pathetic dodge conducted by a decrepit intelligence service; the Okrana's "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" wasn't true. That didn't mean it hasn't cost tens of millions of lives, because of it's propagation. You're going to operate and act as if it was. You probably believe in peak oil and AGW as well I'd bet. We were bombed despite 9/11 not because of it. You're familiar with the 2002 Birmingham AQ manual which focuses on false allegations against security services

PeterUK

"This would include Bob Gates I suppose the Republican SoD appointed by Bush who also wishes to close Gitmo for exactly the reasons I've enumerated and has said so several times."

Circular argument.Now that the left has smeared the prison facility across the world and rendered it politically impossible to use,that is probably all that is left.But as usual,the left creates a problem,screams its silly head off,then comes up with a "solution".
Are you willing to take responsibility for the future actions of the inmates released in the US ?

Captain Hate

Do you not think world peace would be better served if you,personally,stopped traveling?

LOL; he should just spend his time here getting knocked around like the simpleton quisling he is.

John

This is understandable.Do you not think world peace would be better served if you,personally,stopped traveling?

Posted by: PeterUK | January 13, 2009 at 12:05 PM


If you don't know that Paki anti-Semitism started in the 1980s in Saudi funded madrassahs set up and staffed by Wahhabists, you don't get anything. Find me one of those Wahabbist madrassahs in Afghanistan, O John of Arabia, and I'll buy the beer.

Spending time in Pakistan doesn't count either, John. Afghans hate Pakis too (actually think they are inferior race).

Posted by: Soylent Red | January 13, 2009 at 12:03 PM

Why is it than whenever a bit of reality is brought up it always ends up in personal abuse. Where Pakistani anti Zionism came from hardly matters, it's real. And yes I'm well aware the Afghans don't like Pakistanis but then Iranians who aren't Arabs either but are Shiite muslims don't like Sunni muslims but that hasn't stopped them supporting Hamas which is a Sunni sect. You constantly fall into the trap of oversimplification which as I pointed out constantly gets us into trouble.

Sue

I'm just trying to figure out how the simplistic method of sweeping people up and sorting through them has failed us

We should have just killed them. We can blow up people in Pakistan with drones and no one says a word. Did they have their miranda rights read to them? Anyway, I'm being silly, but it would have prevented what has happened with regard to Gitmo. Kill them all and let God sort them out.

ROA

"Because some clearly are guilty of something and are very dangerous."

Then why wouldn't Democrats like Naylor admit that?

Sue

John,

Are you saying Shiites will cooperate with Sunnis if it furthers their own goals?

John

Circular argument.Now that the left has smeared the prison facility across the world and rendered it politically impossible to use,that is probably all that is left.But as usual,the left creates a problem,screams its silly head off,then comes up with a "solution".
Are you willing to take responsibility for the future actions of the inmates released in the US ?

Posted by: PeterUK | January 13, 2009 at 12:13 PM

You can ascribe the blame to whoever you like, but you're accepting my point that it's become a stain on the US reputation and therefore counterproductive to US interests and therefore as Gates and the new administration believe should be closed.

MayBee

We should probably dump India as an ally too, as long as we're appeasing Pakistani terrorists.

John

John,

Are you saying Shiites will cooperate with Sunnis if it furthers their own goals?

Posted by: Sue | January 13, 2009 at 12:21 PM

Er.....yes.

narciso

I meant despite Gitmo and Bagram, see how this jackalope has unnerved me. LOL Rick,
He probably does Po, frankly the 20% who threw away their vote, didn't do it because of Sarah, but anxiety over John Heck he's probably in business with the Al Amoudis like Kean, Kissinger and Joe Wilson.
probably takes tea with the Quahtanis, lamenting over their recent lack of martyrs in Iraq and Afghanistan. Probably does the same with Hamid Gul the father of the Taliban, who says that 9/11 was a Mossad plot, Hey it's out there, it must be true.

PeterUK

"If you don't know that Paki anti-Semitism started in the 1980s in Saudi funded madrassahs set up and staffed by Wahhabists, you don't get anything. Find me one of those Wahabbist madrassahs in Afghanistan, O John of Arabia, and I'll buy the beer."

Not exactly cogent and to the point.I knew about such things "before you were born",but what has it to do with you "wandering the Earth,like Caine" and making a bloody nuisance of yourself?
You are though,doing a splendid job of batting for the other side.

MayBee

You can ascribe the blame to whoever you like, but you're accepting my point that it's become a stain on the US reputation and therefore counterproductive to US interests and therefore as Gates and the new administration believe should be closed

As I said, George W Bush himself said it should be closed.
However, it is counterproductive to US interests, depending on what you define as US interests. At the time it was started, US interests were winning two wars and getting terrorists off the battlefields.

Are you going to pretend that just as Guantanamo has been used against Bush, more attacks against the US or lost wars would NOT have been used against Bush?

Remember how Europe stopped whining against the secret CIA prisons when Colin Powell said they knew about them, benefited from them, and were big fat hypocrites? People loooove to whine about the US.

Sue

John,

Er, you will excuse me for questioning that, especially since I've been indoctrinated into believing that Saddam Hussein would have never cooperated with Osama bin Laden to further their own goals...

Soylent Red

You constantly fall into the trap of oversimplification which as I pointed out constantly gets us into trouble.

Oversimplification? Project much?

Wasn't it you who suggested that Muslims, as a rule, hate Israel? Wasn't it you who suggested that Afghanistan COIN hinged on Afghans disliking our policies WRT Israel and Gaza?

As I have said, Muslims are not a homogeneous bloc. Afghans are not Pakis and thus you cannot use Paki attitudes (formed by Wahabbists, and not at all related to original Paki practice of Islam) to predict Afghan reactions to American foreign policy.

Wasn't it you who suggested that Guantanamo inmates were largely made up of accidental captures? Wasn't it you who suggested that Osama's driver was not a big enough fiush to try (I think having a trunk full of RPGs speaks for itself)?

Again, you are making MSM-myth-driven assertions that are absolutely false in fact. Nobody, and I mean nobody, at Gitmo is anything else but a dead ender. Bitch about Bagram all you want, but Gitmo is a completely different kind of place.

You're just plain wrong John. If not for your own sake, for the sake of everyone who knows what they're talking about, please quit burbling talking points.

John

"We can blow up people in Pakistan with drones and no one says a word. Did they have their miranda rights read to them? Anyway, I'm being silly, but it would have prevented what has happened with regard to Gitmo. Kill them all and let God sort them out.

Posted by: Sue | January 13, 2009 at 12:19

Unless it's escaped your notice the people we're killing with drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan is causing a lot of people in these countries to say a word. In fact they are up in arms about it but it just not being reported on your favorite cable station.

Bill in AZ

Rick:
Now, SR, that's not quite true. He's acclaimed for having the ability to recite the muslim call to prayer in perfect Arabic.

and

"Can you tell one thing, Obama has done to help people in any of the jobs he's held before this."

Damn right I can. When he directed funding to the hospital where she was pretending to work, Michelle got a raise big enough to put fruit on the table for months....

Rick, quit defending Zero before I start to see how truly wunnerful he really is.
====

One thing that has me replacing my irony-meter almost daily is the Afghanistan "Surge" that Zero blathers about. For the first several years of the WOT all we ever heard about from the MSM was how Cowboy Bush was going it alone, had no coalition. I responded to countless moonbat blog posts with an image of 70+ country flags representing the countries involved in the WOT, specifically in Afghanistan. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc took great pains to ensure it was a global effort, and engaged Afghan leaders in every step of the way up to and beyond their election. Even when things were going to crap for Karzai, they took pains to stay out of it and let him call the shots using coalition forces if needed, but encouraging him to do it on his own - and he successfully defended himself many times, and strengthened his country in the process.

Now, Zero blathers endlessly about a surge using US soldiers, likely destroying any credibility we may have had with the folks Afghanistan leaders have to try to hold together under their sovereignty.

...and nary a peep from the MSM about "Cowboy" (gag!) Zero going it alone. Just because a surge worked in one place, doesn't mean it is the right thing to do elsewhere. The only reason a surge was required in Iraq is because State under the august leadership of Powell and Armitage screwed things up so badly turning things over to Iraqi's. That idiot Zero is going to make a huge mess over there, and he doesn't have a clue.

Pofarmer

I dunno, I just look at the huge crowds Palin drew all across the country, and I have to kind of wonder about who's perceptions and who's reality we're talking about. Obviously there's a pretty large group who will go out in pretty large numbers in Pretty crappy weather to hear Palin speak.

PeterUK

"but you're accepting my point that it's become a stain on the US reputation and therefore counterproductive to US interests and therefore as Gates and the new administration believe should be closed."

You cannot absolve yourself of blame and ,as has been pointed out Bush said Gitmo should be closed,but now the left has rendered it impolitic to use the place,you have all got your heads up your arses trying to work out what to do with the inmates.
I have never expressed an opinion whether Gitmo should be open or closed.,but have serious doubts about putting the inmates into the US justice system.
BTW.The oil business,was it for magic lamps?

MayBee

Unless it's escaped your notice the people we're killing with drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan is causing a lot of people in these countries to say a word. In fact they are up in arms about it but it just not being reported on your favorite cable station.

Don't kill people.
Don't capture them.
Denounce Israel.
Respect the rage of other countries while denying our right to have any ourselves.
Does that about sum things up, John?

Danube of Thought

Each and every prisoner at Gitmo has had a hearing before a Combatant Status Review Tribunal in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Each and every one was determined to be an unlawful combatant, and accordingly can be detained until the cessation of hostilities.

One need not have committed a prosecutable criminal offense to be held as an unlawful combatant, any more than a soldier must have committed a crime in order to be held as a prisoner of war.

Sue

In fact they are up in arms about it but it just not being reported on your favorite cable station.

Who is up in arms? Who is they? Help me out here, point me to those who are outraged that we are killing AQ.

MayBee

The way I see it, we are always supposed to understand the sensitivities of other countries. We aren't allowed to have any of our own.

boris

John: "where I have spent time ... If you don't get this get this you don't get anything."

Soylent: "If you don't know that Paki anti-Semitism started in the 1980s ... you don't get anything."

John: "Why is it than whenever a bit of reality is brought up it always ends up in personal abuse."

Ends up? The grasp of reality on display here from moron john is quite revealing.

Pofarmer

That idiot Zero is going to make a huge mess over there, and he doesn't have a clue.

And, unforunately, I'm afraid our Men and Women in Uniform will pay the price. Like I said the other day, Johnson part duex.

narciso

Deobandism; which is the Indian variant of Wahhabi/Salafism goes back to the early 19th Century; that was the point of Charles Allen's "God's Warrior" there was no Israel, there was no Pakistan back then. The cold reality is that the oil money that funds the Ulema of the Wahhabi, the Zakat charities, and all these propaganda and intelligence operations will not forestall the fall of these regimes. The example of late Czarist Russia with the Okhrana was instructive, they seemingly spent their time infiltrating the SR who ended up killing up reformist Prime ministers like Stolypin and Sipiagin, while Lenin walked in through the back door. The Quahtanis, the Ghamdis, the Uteibis all chronicled by
Doughty 220 years ago, are the footsoldiers in this effort, they make up most of the 250 at Gitmo, and among the larger contingent.

Cecil Turner

On Muslim perceptions, I think this old pew poll is worth a review:

By contrast, large majorities in Pakistan (87%), Egypt (76%), Jordan (68%), and Indonesia (61%) feel that the Hamas Party victory will be good for the Palestinian people, among those who had heard about the election. In addition, the Muslim publics surveyed generally feel the Hamas triumph will increase chances of a fair settlement of the Mideast conflict - a view that is roundly rejected in the West.
Wow, that one was hard to call. So what're we gonna do? Pretend the "Muslim street" is grounded in reality? (Like their "reality-based" proponents amongst our lefty brethren?) Or reject their silliness as the obvious stupidity it is? [Hey I know, I know!]

Sue

I hope Obama actually listens to Petraeus. If he does, this might turn out okay. I hate that he is sending men and women on a mission he doesn't think will help. What a sad day for our troops.

Soylent Red

In fact they are up in arms about it but it just not being reported on your favorite cable station.

Myth. Afghans know that mistakes are being made, and that Americans are somewhat ham-handed with airstrikes (not the same as Predator "drones"). What the Predators are doing doesn't affect the average Afghan, unless they are baddies.

The airstrike problem is less important to the Afghans than the "why don't they get their act together, spend a little money, and get us some electricity and water" problem. That's what John Q. Afghan is bitching about John.

Since you probably don't know, "airstrike" accidents are fairly rare in Afghanistan (despite the press blowing them out of proportion) for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that CENTCOM is moving toward a HUMINT approach because "airstrikes" are unreliable. That's been going on for about six months now.

Also, for your continuing education, Predators are not operated by UAV operators in camoflage outfits. They're run by spooks, usually CIA. Because of the limited availability they are typically very tightly tasked, which means if you don't know what your target is, you don't shoot. Predator strikes are never, never accidental. And to my knowledge, the only civilians killed by Predators were collaterals located too close to baddies. I consider that an object lesson rather than a tragedy.

John

Posted by: Soylent Red | January 13, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Wasn't it you who suggested that Muslims, as a rule, hate Israel?

You disagree with proposition? Of course they are not homogenous but they are generally unanimous on this issue.

Wasn't it you who suggested that Guantanamo inmates were largely made up of accidental captures?

There were originally around 700 prisoners in Gitmo, there are now around 250, in other words two thirds have been released because they were small fry. It's a fact.

Wasn't it you who suggested that Osama's driver was not a big enough fiush to try

This guy is a Yemeni nobody otherwise why is he being released by a military commission after being found guilty of trivial offenses. Fact.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, at Gitmo is anything else but a dead ender

Actually the evidence from military prosecutors and defenders is that there are still a lot of small fry there. There are a handful of bad guys but it's probably as far as any of can know becasue of the secrecy less than 50.

You're just plain wrong John. If not for your own sake, for the sake of everyone who knows what they're talking about, please quit burbling talking points.

You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. This is just your personal opinion with a bit of personal insult thrown in.

Bill in AZ

Who is up in arms? Who is they? Help me out here, point me to those who are outraged that we are killing AQ.

AQ?

John

Myth. Afghans know that mistakes are being made, and that Americans are somewhat ham-handed with airstrikes (not the same as Predator "drones").

What the Predators are doing doesn't affect the average Afghan, unless they are baddies.

Tell that to Hamid Karzai. And is if matters a rat's bottom whether you are dead from a US airstrke or drone. Both have caused civilian casualties which no less a person than David Petraeus says is hampering our efforts in Afhganistan.

MayBee

Jphn- it's really hard to figure out what you are quoting from what you are saying. Could you please find a way to delineate?

Sue

Wow. I am heartened to see the defense of Rove and Petraeus.

John

Who is up in arms? Who is they? Help me out here, point me to those who are outraged that we are killing AQ.

AQ?

Posted by: Bill in AZ | January 13, 2009 at 12:53 PM

The presidents of Afghanistan and Pakistan for a start not to mention their unfortunate citizens.

Porchlight

Er, you will excuse me for questioning that, especially since I've been indoctrinated into believing that Saddam Hussein would have never cooperated with Osama bin Laden to further their own goals...

Well done, Sue. I saw that little trap door you were opening.

Next up: Saddam was secular!!!1!!1

John

Jphn- it's really hard to figure out what you are quoting from what you are saying. Could you please find a way to delineate?

Posted by: MayBee | January 13, 2009 at 12:57 PM

???????

MayBee

Find a way to indicate to your reader what you are quoting from another commenter, and what you are saying your own self.

Soylent Red

It's an honor culture John. Hamid Karzai is playing for the crowds so as not to look like a weakling to the Afghan people. The Afghan people know it's a show, but they still expect it. It has no more significance in our relationship with the Afghan government than similar bleatings from the various Iraqi heads of state along the way. Honor culture.

in other words two thirds have been released because they were small fry.

Most, if not all of these two thirds have been remanded to host nation authorities or nation or origin in a process you may have heard of, loosely referred to (not to mention completely misunderstood and misreported) as "rendition". Not released. Fact.

Most will be recaptured again.

This guy is a Yemeni nobody otherwise why is he being released by a military commission after being found guilty of trivial offenses. Fact.

Guy was a rollover who was caught with RPGs in the trunk of his car in a war zone. Fact.

Guy gave up critical intelligence regarding Tora Bora in exchange for consideration of early release. Fact.

You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

Talk to people who have been involved in prisoner detention at Bagram and Gitmo John. I have. I happen to work with a couple. So show me the evidence, because you can't.

And I know that for a fact because the real evidence is classified. I know that for a fact because I know the people who are sifting through it to declassify enough to provide habeus corpus to these asshats.

I get my information right from the well. Where do you get yours?

Cecil Turner

And is if matters a rat's bottom whether you are dead from a US airstrke or drone.

The point he's making is that airstrikes are commonly on the Afghan side of the border, Predators on the Pakistan side. And most folks in the area get that distinction.

Daddy

Good Morning,

I see an American Thinker article by our Clarice is linked to and cited in Stephen Greene's PJM story, "Is Time Rooting For Israel's Defeat?" which is linked to on Instapundit this morning.

John

Er, you will excuse me for questioning that, especially since I've been indoctrinated into believing that Saddam Hussein would have never cooperated with Osama bin Laden to further their own goals...

Well done, Sue. I saw that little trap door you were opening.

Next up: Saddam was secular!!!1!!1

Posted by: Porchlight | January 13, 2009 at 01:00 PM

Is it really such a leap of the imagination to understand you might cooperate one day and not another, or even cooperate or not cooperate on the same day, depending on the nature of the issue. What a simplistic world you folks live in.

narciso

I hope so, Sue, one of my relatives is in the Stans, but everything I hear gives me no
confidence that he will do so. This
election was a disaster on every considerable issue one would consider naming. People talk of Hope, and Change, but one has to oblivious at a level only recently exhibited by our guest. Putin is laughing his head off, while slapping Medvedyev with a wet newspaper, Chavez, the Castro sibling, Ahmadinejad likewise all lucked out,because in part of storm of carp layed down against Sarah, she called them out by name, during the Convention; she's the one they truly feared, they might have had a grudging respect for the Old Warrior.

Great Kendrick Meek is the first up for the Florida Senate seat, Hope Rubio gets off his duff. Now for those not in the know, Tuesday the 13th is the day of bad luck in the Latin culture

PDinDetroit

Australia Offers 'Best Job in World' On Paradise Island

Position: Island caretaker. Duties: Lazing around Australia's Great Barrier Reef for six months, blogging about your days, maybe clean the pool once in a while. Salary: $105,000.

Now, one of you lucky bloggers could be the one to take on this tough job. The real St. Janes does exist!

LUN.

Pofarmer

So most of the folks at Gitmo are just poor unfortunates.

I vote we send em to John's house.

Barney Frank


So we can't detain unlawful combatants, we can't kill terrorists with airstrikes or drones, we can't support Israel in its attempts to survive, we can't do anything to peave a muslim in anyway, in fact.

Are your first and last names seperated by -Ibn- or -Ali-?

Pofarmer

Oh, and I'm still waiting on what kind of person Gov. Palin is.

PeterUK

"

Jphn- it's really hard to figure out what you are quoting from what you are saying. Could you please find a way to delineate?

Posted by: MayBee | January 13, 2009 at 12:57 PM

???????

Yes,you could quote then comment in Urdu.

John

The point he's making is that airstrikes are commonly on the Afghan side of the border, Predators on the Pakistan side. And most folks in the area get that distinction.

Posted by: Cecil Turner | January 13, 2009 at 01:06 PM

They've used drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan but only airstrikes in Afghanistan for the very obvious reason that airstrikes would be perceived as much overt attack on sovereign territory. It hardly matters as the inhabitants hate their perpetrators particularly when they go wrong as both sorts have.

Soylent Red

Which reminds me folks, we need to find a way to get our recipe together. Any ideas? Post them back on the Saturday Open thread.

In honor of Afghanistan, I am submitting a nice shawarma recipe I think everyone will enjoy with lamb or chicken.

Got that right from the well too John.

Captain Hate

What a simplistic world you folks live in.

It's amazing how you can convince people of the rightness of your worldview when you resort to this winning strategy. Is it any wonder that our world bon-vivant leaves such a trail of US hatred in his wake? Assuming that anything he said is remotely close to true.

Soylent Red

The point he's making is that airstrikes are commonly on the Afghan side of the border, Predators on the Pakistan side.

Actually the points I was making are:

1. Predator strikes aren't the same as airstrikes. So stop basing arguments on them being the same thing.

2. Predator strikes are used selectively, and only against highly vetted targets. It's not the same as close air support, from which all of the purely civilian-killing screwups have come.

3. Close air support is being severely restricted by CENTCOM (starting six months ago) because it is counterproductive to developing human collectors in the area. The Afghan people know that a few eggs will be broken so they aren't all that concerned, but it does limit one's ability to develop a source when you just got done incinerating his brother's wedding.

bad

Clarice's short rib recipe is in the crockpot. If the aroma is any indication, my family will be in heaven tonight.

John

So we can't detain unlawful combatants, we can't kill terrorists with airstrikes or drones, we can't support Israel in its attempts to survive, we can't do anything to peave a muslim in anyway, in fact.

Are your first and last names seperated by -Ibn- or -Ali-?

Posted by: Barney Frank | January 13, 2009 at 01:09 PM

Do grow up. I'd say my opinions are broadly those of the incoming admin that just got elected by a landslide; most of the technocrats who are running the security apparatus in which category I put Gates and Blair; and most of the foreign policy establishment in Washington, not to mention those of our major allies like Britain and Germany. You are the guys that are out of line not me. You may not like any of this but it's reality which was my starting point for this whole discussion. Have a nice day.

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