Memeorandum


Powered by TypePad

« Pakistan And The Taliban/Al Qaeda Migration | Main | Send In The Straw »

February 25, 2009

Comments

clarice

The Japanese report really is good news,TM.Add to that the Czech President's pooh poohing of AGW...and perhaps the tide is starting to turn.

PeterUK

One scientist said "Climate prediction ,akin to astrology".

PeterUK

But how sad for Obama that one of his pet hobbyhorses has started the trip to the knackers yard.

bad

Hopefully this will stop a cap and trade boondoggle for the US.

PeterUK

It might stop cap and trade,but Obama will be tilting a windmills for at least four years.Future generations are going to look at them like we look at the monuments on Easter Island - WTF ???

verner

Best damn line I've read in months:

"One of the five contributors compares computer climate modelling to ancient astrology."

Just like we've said all along. Potemkin science.

The real reason for the hysteria--so that the UN could gouge the western pocketbook for over 60,000 "warming projects" and Al Gore could gobble filet mignon.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

Hopefully this will stop a cap and trade boondoggle for the US.

Bad,

Cap-n-trade is a power grab and a slush fund and is not dependent on any empirical science or common sense.

Amused bystander

PUK: Well at least those statues are pleasant to look at.

I think in that in the future they will look upon AGW for what from at least one POV it actually is: Superstition.

This business is much like beating drums during en eclipse so as to ward of the bad spirits and have the sun return. The high priest were more than a little sly about this sort of thing back then too.

Danube of Thought

“'Gore and Will will rally their supporters and entrench their opponents, and we will be no closer to progress,' Mr. Ropeik said."

Actually, if the Will faction can maintain a stalemate with regard to legislation, enormous progress will have been made.

Satirists thirty years from now will have huge fun at the expense of Mr. Gore.

PeterUK

The problem with the AGW scam is that it is like a supertanker,it is going to take a lot of stopping and a long time to turn around.

PeterUK

"This business is much like beating drums during en eclipse so as to ward of the bad spirits and have the sun return."

Don't knock it.I've put in grant to built a step Pyramid of the Sun,I was hoping Al Gore would officiate in the opening ceremony.
One way of getting rid of a couple of hundred pounds of ugly fat.

Matt

The Mayans would propitiate the gods with human sacrifice. Is that what you're getting at Peter? if so, I can think of a long line of candidates...getting out of this "crisis" is going to take a lot of sacrifice, as Obumble has repeatedly told us.

Chris

It's nice to see Revkin take a jab at Gore and his motivations but the equivalence with Will doesn't wash. One guy wants to reorder society and pass control to unelected and unaccountable UN bureaucrats. The other is simply pointing out inconsistencies. Where does the burden of proof lie? With the side who questions the reordering or with the proponents of a return to 19th century subsistence level lifestyles.

Moreover, what of the profit motive? One guy stands to make (has already made) hundreds of millions if we act immediately. The other just asks questions. But they're the same?

Elliott

Will the President listen to views of our allies?

kim

Revkin got an earful from me all last year. I only quit haunting DotEarth when he required registration. Some of the old timers there will remember when it was referred to as DotKim. Heh.

I trust Andy's curiosity and integrity. He'll get a Pulitzer someday for reporting the story. At least, I told him he would.
===================================

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

Will the President listen to views of our allies?

No. They could be partisan views.
A true bi-partisan listens thoughtfully only to those who agree with him.
Get a clue, Elliott.
We're all post partisan now.

Bill in AZ

heh heh - he said "astrology". kim, all we need to add to this thread is "barycenter" and Leif will come a'runnin to dispel any solar-climate nonsense we might be precipitating here.

PeterUK

Matt,
Actually,I was thinking of the Aztecs,those blokes didn't mess around.Admittedly,it would be difficult finding Fat Al's heart,but if it saves the human race.

Jim Ryan

The problem with the AGW scam is that it is like a supertanker,it is going to take a lot of stopping and a long time to turn around.

Maybe not if the planet continues to cool for another five years and we Americans vote the bums out. On the other hand, some projected curves I've seen are sinusoidal with a positive average slope, so that the present moment calls for a decrease in temp for a few years before returning to the increase. This means that current cooling would be "predicted" on those models. The question is whether the public would buy it or vote the bums out.

Pofarmer

Interesting.

My Mizzou Alumni magazine just had a big 6 page write up on Tom Carnahan and his wind energy projects. They're going up everywhere. They're really successful. Nowhere in 6 pages did the talk about the cost of electricity from these super successful wind projects. You'd think they could have mentioned that.

Pofarmer

Jim, no matter what happens, "the models" will have predicted it. This is true mainly because there are models predicting just about everything.

kim

I'm pretty sure we're cooling for twenty or more years, Jim, because of the phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, which is in its La Nina dominant cooling phase right now. If the sun's behaviour, which is just a little unusual, presages a grand or lesser minimum we'll have 50-100 years of cooling.

Obama has a curious problem. His administration is packed with CO2=AGW true believers, but raising the price of energy with all their schemes runs directly against efforts to lift the recession. Interesting times we live in.

Good one, Bill in AZ. Let's try this:

BARYCENTRISM.....Oh, hi Leif.
==============

Elliott

Note link for future reference:

And the goal of an Obama administration in foreign policy would be, obviously to act on behalf of the interests of the security of the United States, but also to listen to our allies.
kim

Wind energy is no good for baseload, nor for peak load. So what the Hell good are they? Storage technology is inadequate for them to be useful. I've heard wind energy referred to as a gigawatt solution for a terrawatt problem.
=====================================

PeterUK

Jim,
Ttouble is,voting them out won't end all the contracted projects.If Obama can get a significant number of the workforce engaged in these vast schemes,it will be a brave administration which puts them out of work.There will no doubt be penalty clauses in manufacture and construction contracts.
Think of the First World War,it couldn't be prevented because of mobilisation and the railway time tables.

verner

Ignatz, Barry and the Dims (Sounds kind of like Benny and the Jets...) might just find themselves as a party of ONE when it comes to climate change.

Let's look at the list:

1) China with 1.3 billion people--never in, though you can hardly breath there and they need to clean it up for health reasons.

2) India with 1 billion--they can't even feed 30 percent of their population properly, they've got their own priorities.

3) Russia, decidedly out.

4) Italy, balking.

5) Czech Republic--PM finds it laughable.

6)Japan--top experts now find the science credulous.

What you're left with is the rest of the third world, who support the Warming hoax because they think they can suck money out of the west, and Socialists in the EU who want to further stick it to global capitalism.

Now the supporting science is falling to pieces.

Prediction--the issue will slowly fade away from public view as Barry realizes the political cost of crippling our economy for a "hypothetical" reduction of .01 C.

kim

People think the solution to wind's problems is just to build a big grid. The problem is that power losses over distance go up with the square of the distance. It costs a hundred times as much to send a watt a hundred miles as it does ten miles. Why do you think we have all those 'death trains' carrying coal? Why not generate the electricity at the coal mine instead of carrying the raw material hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles? Because it's cheaper to ship coal than electricity. Supercooled transmission lines can solve that, but supercooled transmission lines are superexpensive.

Furthermore, and more fundamentally, the wind, the water and the sun are the earth's natural climate regulating mechanisms. Once we derive significant amounts of energy from these natural regulating mechanisms, the climate will be disturbed in unpredictable ways. So much for sustainable, renewable, energy.
===================================

bad

Ignatz, I can dream.

Fresh Air

The reason CO2 is still increasing even though the cooling has been ongoing for 11 years is that CO2 is not a cause of warming but a response to it. It trails by about 100 years, and has for at least 10,000 years. I refuse to accept the half-assed idea being put forward by Mr. Revkin that both Gore and WIll are partially right and wrong. There is almost nothing that Al Gore is right about, and he is a personally distasteful man who has elevated his pursuit into some sort of freakish cult. On the other hand, George Will has the facts but he is also a Cub fan.

Kim--

Is there still only one sunspot? Last I checked the cupboard was pretty bare up there.

Porchlight

If, as I pray, Providence smiles on us and we manage to avert legislative disaster, and then the "scientific consensus" starts slowly but quietly swinging around to sanity, as it already has begun to do, the I-told-you-so's are going to be exquisite. And I will trumpet them in the inboxes, and on Facebook, with great enjoyment.

kim

Yep, Fresh Air, that little spot is still there, but fading fast. And, it's a cycle 24 spot, the coming cycle. However, it's the first cycle 24 spot in over a month. The trouble is that Cycle 24 is not ramping up as expected, leading to a lot of speculation that Cycle 24 will be much weaker than recent cycles. Two researchers, Livingston and Penn, are measuring the internal magnetism of the spots and claim that sunspots will disappear by 2015. This is not to say that the internal dynamo of the sun that produces spots is failing, only that they won't be hot enough to be visible.

During the Dalton Minimum, sunspots were large, very sparse and entirely southern hemispheric. That that phenomenon led to the global cooling then is highly controversial, with some claiming the cooling was from several large volcanic events.
=======================================

Rick Ballard

It will be a surprise to me if the buffoon in the WH passes up a chance to tax air. He needs all the revenue which he and the Dems can steal and a regressive tax that hits everyone is just too good to pass up.

clarice

Po, What does cost matter when you HAVE to save the planet?

kim

Oh, yes, Rick, carbon encumbering is highly regressive. If we cool like I suspect, and carbon is taxed, millions living on the margin will die. This is not only the greatest scientific hoax ever, it's becoming the greatest public policy disaster, too.
======================================

Jim Ryan

Wait a minute, kim, leftists' central planning leading to mass starvation? I've never heard of such a thing.

Pofarmer

It costs a hundred times as much to send a watt a hundred miles as it does ten miles.

Which means that, not only are we doing the wrong thing, we are doing the MOST counterproductive thing we could be doing.

Barack Hussein sucks. I'm sorry, this is just sad. I may have to take a break from politics. When the kossacks show up at the door I'll know it's to late.

E. Nigma

Revkin is doing a typical liberal-arts major thought experiment in terms of "well there's right and wrong on both sides."

In science, there is only truth, not consensus. Only the truth, the verifiable, proven physical truth matters.
Consensus of opinion doesn't matter. 100 scientists in a particular field can have the majority "consensus" opinion, but if one scientist can disprove the consensus with better research and a stronger truth, then he is right.
I don't know how the global warming studies will eventually work out, but I am profoundly disturbed by the "consensus" and the general unwillingness to be skeptical of "consensus" truths in this matter.
My personal truth is that there is quite of bit of conflicting evidence, which to me proves that there is no sound hypothesis or even "theory" that has been substantiated. What we need is much more study to understand the problem and the question.
Our databases and baseline assumptions are too inconsistent and have been recorded too haphazardly. I have seen one set of data from Central Park (NY) dating back to the 17th century. Who calibrated their thermometers back then? What was the precision? Someone is really reaching.
The modeling is a tremendous excercise in programming of supercomputers, but that is not science, it's just writing complex software code.

Pofarmer

And the worst part of this is the progression of "leadership" if something happens to the Commie in Cheif.

kim

Sadly, Jim, the deep ecologists would prefer we have a huge human die-off. Happily, clarice, many environmentalists are snapping to the fact that the global warming hoax is detrimental to other efforts to preserve our environment.
========================================

PeterUK

Kim,
The EU is way ahead on public policy disasters,bound as it is to achieving emission levels which are unattainable at costs that cannot be afforded..Gordon the Moron has signed up for all this claptrap,involving thousands of giant windmills that there isn't the industrial capacity to produce,workforce to erect,money to fund them or a grid that will take the surges of power.The Large Combustion Plant Directive will close down the power stations which would have to run in parallel when the wind doesn't blow.
You couldn't make it up !

kim

E. Nigma, when Einstein was confronted with a consensus letter from hundreds of scientists claiming he was wrong he asked something on the order of 'Why so many? It only takes one to prove me wrong'.
=================================

jt007

The idea that liberals will finally be persuaded by the gaping holes in AGW theory is a pipedream. Roy Spencer, John Christie et al. have provided mounds of empirical evidence derived via the scientific method that contradicts AGW computer modeling and they have been derided as oil company shills and holocaust deniers. As with everything else, leftists have made up their minds and the facts won't change that.

Obama just ordered the EPA to begin regulating CO2. I don't know if the EPA has the authority to create a cap and trade system on its own, but it will do most, if not all, of the heavy lifting on this issue. That way Obama and the Democrats can claim that the EPA was merely following the Bush era Supreme Court ruling in Massachussetts v. EPA.

We are getting cap and trade or a carbon tax no matter what.

Pofarmer

All right folks. Now, I'm only 38. I remember well Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and of course, GWB. My first vote was for GWB, my first realization of media bias was Bob Schriefer on election night practically campaigning for Bill Clinton. I was really pretty apolitical before that. Through all that time, I've never feared for the future of my country at the hands of it's own leadership. Hell, I never really feared for it at all. After all we had the best Military in the world, the best Economy, best Leadership. And now??? Well, we still have the best Military, but if the economy is ruined, that won't last. Like I said, I've never feared for the future of my country, but, today I do. Since the election in November, I have. Somebody tell me I'm just being overwrought with Barack Hussein Disorder.

Fresh Air

E Nigma--

And not just complex code, but gobbledygook, as Charlie Martin pointed out a while back on American Thinker, as I'm sure you saw. Good data, bad data, whatever data in = same garbage each time. It's not science, it's unabashed, straightforward fraud. We have so many lies floating through the ether the Washington Mediacrats breathe, they've probably even got Chamberlain's exhalation molecules in there.

Thank God for Inhofe, the only man on the Hill with a brain.

RichatUF

E. Nigma-

It's not just global warming. Enjoy, don't know if you are familiar with the book.

kim

Right, Peter, but their is a taxpayer revolt brewing in Great Britain.

We skeptics have been waiting for a tipping point in belief. Perhaps this Japanese thing is it. For sure, the climate is cooling, folks, for how long even kim doesn't know. Wait, I just told you how long I think it's going to cool. Oops.
=================================================

Rick Ballard

jt007,

When the idiots at EPA (Chu in the lead) impose a regulation then this goes to court. That's when it will get interesting. It could be the Scopes trial of the 21st century. As E. nigma notes - this isn't science, it's modeling and the actual temperatures are not performing within the "expected" ranges predicted by the models.

kim

Pofarmer, it's going to be a close run thing, but I believe the Obamanation depends on too much delusion to survive in the real world. The 'Sunday Mornin' Comin' Down' is going to be very painful, though.
=============================

kim

As someone noted, Congress is just a little more hesitant to tax carbon than Obama and the EPA. They have heard from skeptical constituents, and Congress, some of them, and more every day, understand that encumbering carbon encumbers the economy. We couldn't afford this policy mistake in good times and we double down damn can't afford it in hard times.
=================================

Jim Ryan

Po, you should be gravely concerned for the future. See if you can avoid fear of it and hatred for the miscreants. It only hurts you and helps them. Villains love it when you hate them.

As for taking a break from politics, although I do have a friend who advises following him in adverting one's gaze and retiring, I look at it differently. If conservatism can't win, then at least leftism has a chance of exhibiting an abrupt and spectacular failure which will give us a chance to wake up and our grandkids a chance to create the phoenix from the ashes. It will have to be abrupt and spectacular, though. With a slow IV drip the patient will never wake up. It's still worth some popcorn, yet.

kim

Yes, thank God for Inhofe, and Marc Morano.
==========================================

Porchlight

Pofarmer, I wish I could help, but I'm right there with you (I'm 39, about to be 40, so I have the same referents you do).

FWIW, my dad who is brilliant and my total guru on politics, history and pretty much everything, spent his entire career in financial analysis for a major corporation, and he is pretty damn worried about the economy. But as regards the long-term future of the country, he is resolute: "We are not in decline." This makes me feel just a little bit better.

Porchlight

See if you can avoid fear of it and hatred for the miscreants.

Jim Ryan, thanks for the good advice. I have recently been struggling with hate and fear of our political opponents and our enemies. Attempting to step back and take the long view has been somewhat helpful.

Jim Ryan

Yeah, the John Wayne thing: never resentful or afraid. Clear-eyed and decisive, but possible very bad outcomes are left up to God.

kim

Last year I managed to get past hatred and disgust for some of the most rabid of the warmers. They start with a heart filled with concern for the earth. Most of them really just don't have a clue about the science and a herd mentality has taken over. I do retain scorn for some of those who know what they are doing, but just who they are is difficult to figure out. Nearly all of them started with good intentions. They just haven't been paying attention to the road signs since.
===========================================

Danube of Thought

RickB, I don't think there's any official relationship between the EPA and Chu's Energy Department. The EPA is an independent regulatory agency not within the aegis of any of the cabinet departments. But I have no doubt that the agency and Chu will march in lockstep.

Extraneus

Like Chris indicated, it seems worth noting the motivations of the adherents. One side questions the science itself. The other sees opposition as a threat to their plans to control human activities.

Which deserves the most doubt?

kim

One of my first clues in this debate, Extraneous, was the rhetoric. The skeptics sounded like scientists, the believers like advocates.
=============================================

Chris

It's definitely a religion.

Rick Ballard

DoT,

Thanks. I suppose I should blame the mistake on my mind blocking out the horror of Browner coordinating EPA and Energy policy as Climate Commissar.

narciso

Well I'm around Porchlight's age, hard to believe huh, I've been voting a little longer than Po, since 1994, seen a lot that
has been disolutioning in politics and business, a few things and people, that have given me hope. I;m going off to the CPAC conference tomorrow, and I think all of you, jean and mel, for making this possible, clarice, glenda, kim, sara, jane, for encouraging me on this endeavour, I know they'll be plenty of names I've left out. I refuse to think this really is the twilight of our nations, although we are in for some dark times, I have to believe this
is possible, although I've voiced my despair
at times. Seem pollyanish of me, with everything I've learned, but maybe I want to chose 'hope over experience' in a different context

kim

Oh, yes, Chris. Faith is powerful, but since the bulk of the 'believers' abhor 'prehistoric myths' they are very sensitive to the suggestion. One of my favorite lines has been: 'Don't sacrifices my virgins for your superstitions'.
===================================

Chris

Surrounded by them out here. Everything fits the narrative about the evil US. They openly mock Christianity while proclaiming Al Gore as savior. Very sad to watch. No capability for linear thinking among most on the left. See Pelosi. Natural gas is not a fossil fuel. She believes it, therefore it is. She's got a planet to "save". She said it, must be true.

Extraneus

Looking forward to the trip report, narciso.

Extraneus

Hey, didn't O just dis Japan last night? I bet he knew about their Energy Commission report.

glenda

Narciso...Have the best time, ever!!! You can teach the conservatives a few things! I hope you report back that there are some leaders waiting for the troops to land and bring sanity back. Or at, least, closer!

kim

Bon Voyage, narciso, and Happy Trails to you.
=============================================

bad

narciso, have a fabulous time and give us all the dish.

narciso

The subject of my last set of posts on my blog seems to have earned some attention, here, LUNed, Commentary, Powerline, and a few other places. Thanks, kim, glenda, Extraneous, you aren't by the way.

PDinDetroit

Now, here I thought I was a youngster at 43 and y'all go and show me up. Definitely wise beyond your years...

Yes, there was Global Warming in Detroit tonight! The Red Wings were heating up the ice with all that energy and spanked the Sharks again 4-1!

PDinDetroit

Global Warming? I give you some Global Warming to shovel. Try 20 feet of snow so far in the Keweenaw, up from their average 15 Feet per year.

LUN.

mel

kim-

I have been totally remiss with Watt and I'll rework the effort to get there, I just keep forgetting to make it part of the "regular surf".

The sunspot dynamo is absolutely a major energy influence on the surface of Earth. It's only constraints are radiation and atmospheric densities.

And lead.

And I don't have a lead roof.

Does anyone over there talk about the coming disharmonics of our iron core? It IS overdue, as you may well know. and might mess with the models a tad.

I, personally, prefer balanced energy equations and the AGW "watermelons" never seem to be able to come up with one. They always get lost in the minutia of "forcing" without realizing they're talking about an actual energy transfer, with a definable equation. They give CO2 far more capabilities than it actually has, for a normally very stable gas. Only excitement I've ever noticed is that it won't stay liquid except under very high pressures. Solid? No big deal.

Enough from me, just asking.

Narciso-

e-mail me before you leave. I have my reasons, and they are very important before you leave. I'll get them in the AM and respond.

Night all.


mel

Oh yeah, I forgot, Glenn posted Roger L. Simon at the CBOT, where I was for 22 years, until last December!

LUN

Mark Turner

Some good information at sciencedaily.com on the implications of global warming...a variety of perspectives; some suggesting that doomsday scenarios associated with global warming are still many thousands of years away.

ROA

Based on the letter Olympia Snowe sent to Exxon in 2007 I wonder how she feels about Global Warming science being compared to ancient astrology.
Letter @ LUN

BobM

Consensus’ Propaganda Is Corrosive to Science — And Liberty

kim

I don't know much about the iron core business, mel. With regard to the sun's effect on the climate, there are several interesting points. Fundamentally, I'm almost sure that the sun directs the climate. The problem, as Leif Svalgaard never seems to tire of pointing out, is that the sun's output of energy from maximum to minimum differs by only about one half percent, not enough to account for greater swings of climate. If you postulate some magnifying mechanism, you run into the problem of climate hypersensitivity. I think the solution is some magnifying mechanism, a la Svensmark's cosmic ray and cloud postulate, with some self-centering process to prevent runaway hypersensitivity. We do not know the precise mechanisms by which the sun controls the climate.

ROA, the sad thing is that Snowe's letter probably had its intended purpose. Exxon is pretty much out of the skeptic business. And her thesis is way off. Something like 50 billion dollars has gone to alarmist research over the last 20 years and something like 200 million dollars to the opposing point of view. Al Gore himself has a 300 million dollar slush fund to spend on propaganda. Here's the good part: he won't disclose the sources of the funding. He claims the money came from internet and 'anonymous' donors. Well, who is going to hide their donations if the effort is to 'save the earth'. He's probably actually getting the money from the greedy pigs seeking to profit off the ignorance of the masses with carbon schemes and 'green' alternative energy rackets. Last year, a skeptical comment of mine about the motivation of Gore's backers at DotEarth actually got put in the print edition of the NYT by Andy Revkin. Ooh, did that piss off the true believers there on DotKim.
========================================

fdcol63

The anthropogenic global warming hysteria is being fueled by Leftists for 2 reasons:

1) To undermine capitalism and free markets in their desire to establish a more "collective", socialistic economy.

2) To create a world-wide panic to ensure mass, popular support for the establishment of a supra-national, collective government or regime (perhaps under the auspices of the UN) to protect people and the planet from a global crisis that individual nation-states (especially the US and in the West) have "failed" to adequately deal with.

There is a very serious agenda behind today's faddish "Green" movement - beyond the reasonable, overt effort of conservationism and resource management.

Fresh Air

I think the comment by the Japanese scientist is an insult to astrology.

MikeinAppalachia

Kim-
"The problem is that power losses over distance go up with the square of the distance. "

Ar you sure of that? Losses are proportional to the square of the power ((I**2)*R), but R (resistance)is linear with the length of the conductor. I think that implies that, at constant power levels, losses are directly proportional to the length of the transmission. Still, the cost of the required transmission facilities to connect a relatively small output from a "wind farm" makes the wind power very expensive and very unreliable compared to a coal-fired or nuke 1000 Mw generating station. BTW-coal tends to be mined in areas without large sources of the required water for coal-fired steam generation. That is also why coal gets shipped long distances.

bad

LOL, Fresh Air

kim

Well, MikeinApp., no, I'm not sure. This is something I've held in my little peabrain since before I can remember as the reason we transport coal and not electricity. I'll pursue it, and thanks for fact-checking.
===================================================

Neo

Speaking of "cap and trade" ...
A collapsing carbon market makes mega-pollution cheap

... what was supposed to be a central lever in the world's effort to turn back climate change. Intended to price fossil fuels out of the market, the system is instead turning them into the rational economic choice.

kim

Yes, Neo, more ugly and unintended consequences of a phony market for an imagined commodity. How harebrained can you get?
=======================================

kim

George Will has a response to Andy Revkin in the WaPo, which I found at icecap.us

He's somewhat disdainful of Revkin's integrity. I'm disappointed that Revkin still thinks that the present cooling is just a 'pause in the warming'. I've certainly explained at great length and repeatedly about the Pacific Decadal Oscillation to apparently deaf ears. Revkin has been an early and persistent cheerleader of the CO2=AGW paradigm, but from my interactions with him, I think he's beginning to have doubts. He's got a great story if he just rereads my comments last year on DotEarth with a more credulous and less jaundiced eye.

OK, Andy, ball's in your court.

I am so glad to see George Will weigh in. I've gotten a little tired of his style, but he is a bulldog.
====================================

BR

Kim - see mine on Nineteen Months.

kim

I can't find your comment there, BR; maybe another thread?
==========================

BR

The original Nineteen Months thread last week. If you go to the redux, there's a link by TM.

BR

Here, in response to yrs re Seixon. With this typepad change, we can't link to specific comments anymore.

bgates

Intended to price fossil fuels out of the market, the system is instead turning them into the rational economic choice.

And what would be the rational economic choice without "the system", I wonder.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame